KarlB737
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DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:16 am

Courtesy: USA Today

DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-04-07-dfw-love_x.htm
 
atrude777
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:46 am

If Southwest must be forced to limit these gates then CO and AA must also have theirs split to, its only fair, SWA shouldn't be the only one to suffer at DAL.

It is a start but not the right direction.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:48 am

I guess DFW-AA has decided that compromise is better than "saving the children"... very shallow minded of them.... what will happen to the children?
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
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par13del
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:57 am

If the DAL master plan already has a gate limit of 32, whats the big deal with the DFW board coming up with a new limit? Only practical use I can see for it is to limit expansion at DAL, meaning WN now uses 14, has leases on a couple more, so if you limit it to 14, either WN is the only carrier there in which case no expansion, or WN has to give up some gates.

If this type of progress continues, I would have taken out membership here for nothing, cause these WA / WN threads will soon be gone.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 3):
If this type of progress continues, I would have taken out membership here for nothing, cause these WA / WN threads will soon be gone.

Except for the daily threads asking "What's up with the WA" months after it was settled, or the weekly "Wright Amendment - two weeks later" threads. It would appear no subject is ever gone forever on the hallowed halls of A.net.  Smile
 
atrude777
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
Except for the daily threads asking "What's up with the WA" months after it was settled, or the weekly "Wright Amendment - two weeks later" threads. It would appear no subject is ever gone forever on the hallowed halls of A.net.

So those NWA DC9's, i mean ya know.......... Wink  Wink
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legion242
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
Courtesy: USA Today

DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/fligh...x.htm

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 1):
If Southwest must be forced to limit these gates then CO and AA must also have theirs split to, its only fair, SWA shouldn't be the only one to suffer at DAL.

It is a start but not the right direction.

What would happen is that DAL would be limited to say, 18 gates, and then all interested parties would submit for the gates. In effect, anyone serving DAL would "suffer". It just makes the playing field a bit more even. Sorta like hitting the reset button.
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ERJ170
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rul

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:12 am

Could DAL set up their gates like RDU does...

Gate A16 has 4 plane stands.. So DAL could have 20 gates.. let 12 of them have jetbridges for 12 planes.. and let the other 8 have four stands each gate for an additional 24 spots.. hmmm? works for me.. and an easy way to get around the gate limitation rule.. LOL.. I so sneaky...or do like Orlando do and have 20 gates.. but let gates 19 & 20 go A-M.. DRAMATICALLY increases the number of plane stands.. Hmmmm.. makes u ponder..
Aiming High and going far..
 
KarlB737
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Legion242 (Reply 6):
It just makes the playing field a bit more even

First, how many gates are there at DFW right now?

Second, how many gates are there at DAL right now?



How does this proposal "make the playing field a bit more even"?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Legion242 (Reply 6):
It just makes the playing field a bit more even. Sorta like hitting the reset button.

How? I'm sure DFW gates outnumber DAL 20 to 1... No airport should be restricted in what they can do unless it is because it is at capacity.. plane and simple.. it's just like if your competitor came to your job and say nobody can make more than $30K because you are taking too much money from their business. WTF is that all about? This is just crazy and the government needs to just kill the Amendment and let them fight it out the way it should be done.. mano-a-mano.. DFW is really acting spoiled and selfish..
Aiming High and going far..
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:12 am

Already being discussed:
D/FW Leaders Recommend Regional Airport Authority (by Cjpark Apr 6 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting Par13del (Reply 3):
If the DAL master plan already has a gate limit of 32, whats the big deal with the DFW board coming up with a new limit?

Because a single operating agency cannot put an artificial limit on a facility with the exception of being sued for noise (fat chance). The way this works is a new agency is placed in charge of both airports and DAL is limited in build out. They operate as a system.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:24 am

Again, I must ask....

If AA-DFW compromises, what will happen to the children !!!!!
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 11):
If AA-DFW compromises, what will happen to the children !!!!!

They still die. Possibly more of them.
 
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par13del
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:49 am

Boeing7E7 thanks for the link, read the entire thread. Does the limit proposed elimnate all the airspace issue's that you detailed in previous threads?
If it does, then yes, I'm afraid I will have to jump on the NW DC9 threads, because it is reasonable, and a better compromise than what the Feds may come up with. Only red flag I would raise is the composition of the board, because just as they can limit gates, presumable they could also close DAL, stop commercial traffic etc.
Any proposals already out there on the scope and composition of this board and its ultimate mandate? Does it specifically state that DAL will remain open for commercial traffic? I think without something like that in it, the Abolish W.A. supporters will not support its creation.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:08 am

This is probably the opening offer from DFW. Then DAL will counter with 40 gates and back and forth, blah blah blah until WN ends up with a max of 20 (just a random number), and 12 more (or whatever) for everyone else.
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dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Legion242 (Reply 6):
What would happen is that DAL would be limited to say, 18 gates, and then all interested parties would submit for the gates. In effect, anyone serving DAL would "suffer". It just makes the playing field a bit more even. Sorta like hitting the reset button.

Removing the Wright Amendment is not the goal of people in favor of removing the Wright Amendment. The goal is increased competition for air service in the North Texas market. Removing the Wright Amendment and then restricting gates so that no expansion of air service takes place still does not satisfy the goal of increased competition. If DAL was limited to 18 gates, the fires would continue to burn and nothing would be settled. The issue would then become allowing more gates at DAL and would continue to be a hot political topic until relief from AA's high air fares is delivered.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:33 am

Well put DALNeighbor. There are so many facets and different avenues this debate can go down, but I still do not understand why we have legislation that restricts competition in an deregulated industry. I don't claim to know all the facts and every little minute detail of the Wright Amendment and the pro's and con's, however it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that it is wrong. I know that the airline industry is in a terrible state and that many think airline fares are too low anyway, but that shouldn't be an argument used to want to keep the Wright Amendment around. I don't know, just seems anti-capitalism.
 
tismfu
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:28 am

So if it's unfair to cap it at 18, why should 32 be the magic number? What about free and unfettered competition? Shouldn't the maximum gate number be as many as the airport can safely and efficiently handle, should airlines, passengers, etc., demand it?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 13):
Boeing7E7 thanks for the link, read the entire thread. Does the limit proposed elimnate all the airspace issue's that you detailed in previous threads?

Yes it does. Anything up to 24 (about half the capacity of a single runway in Dallas - weather etc.. considered) is doable which would probably be the end result. The myth about the DAL master plan is that it's set in stone and can't be altered later to more gates. Without a regional authority, DAL can start with 32 and build out to its "close parallel" runway capacity which is about 80 to 90 gates. Such action would obviously deplete capacity at DFW in a trade off of design airspace handling. It would take a long time to get there, but those buying into the Master Plan argument are simply fooling themselves. A "Regional Authority" can also be specific about commerical aircraft size and/or seating capacity at DAL because there is a shared proprietorship outlet for service in the market at DFW (i.e. - no RJ's/No aircraft over 150K max/etc...Making it a Southwest specific Airport that would have service development along the lines of Midway). Not going to a regional agency covering both airports is what caused this mess in the first place. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Lets say the build out is 24 and Southwest gets 18 gates. That's about what? 140 departure flights a day?

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 17):
So if it's unfair to cap it at 18, why should 32 be the magic number? What about free and unfettered competition? Shouldn't the maximum gate number be as many as the airport can safely and efficiently handle, should airlines, passengers, etc., demand it?

This is why the Master Plan argument is flawed. A single airport agency can't self impose a limit.

[Edited 2006-04-08 01:42:15]
 
stirling
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:55 am

Quote:
Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport would support ending limits on flights from Dallas Love Field if its smaller rival would agree to close nearly half its gates, according to a DFW report.

Might as well keep the Wright Amendment.
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Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rul

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 15):

Removing the Wright Amendment is not the goal of people in favor of removing the Wright Amendment. The goal is increased competition for air service in the North Texas market.

If that's your only goal, there's plenty of room at DFW, competition for all, on a level playing field.

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 17):
So if it's unfair to cap it at 18, why should 32 be the magic number? What about free and unfettered competition? Shouldn't the maximum gate number be as many as the airport can safely and efficiently handle, should airlines, passengers, etc., demand it?

Because the DAL people are hypocrites. They want unfettered access, but yet they don't want noise. So they complain about American's Super80's being noisy even though the noise issue never really got raised over old 727 freighters, business jets, nor Southwest's old 732's up until last year's retirement. In actuality, they, being heavily funded/supported by WN, want what's best for Southwest Airlines. Making a limited number of gates, and grandfathering Southwest into a majority gives Southwest an even bigger advantage than they got by buying out ATA to get their MDW gates. What's best for the airport, the metroplex, the neighbors, the industry, or the airspace of Texas is NOT what SWA and "Setlovefree.com" want.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
If that's your only goal, there's plenty of room at DFW, competition for all, on a level playing field.

especially if WN does go international eventually. I am sure there would be plenty of Canadian or Caribbean/Mexican routes from DFW, like DFW-CUN/MBJ/Grand Cayman or Bahama Island. But this is rather irrelevant for the time being I think...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):

especially if WN does go international eventually.

Don't worry... with the way they have politics tied around their finger down there... if they get Wright lifted, they'll blow through that DAL Master Plan, and the lack of INS at DAL so quickly it'll make your head spin. Logical thinking would say that's another good reason for them to move up to DFW now and get it over with... but they'll just whine some more to get more laws changed in their benefit.
 
sllevin
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:33 am

I'm stunned that DFW would bbe interested in doing this.

It's nothing more than casting WN's gift in stone. This agreement would ensure that WN would get virtually all the benefits of lifting Wright, while virtually guaranteeing that no one else could possibly use DAL. Frontier, AirTran, and jetBlue for example would be left hung out to dry in this arrangement.

In exchange for eliminating competition and gaining the ability to fly anywhere, WN 'sacrifices' down to what, 140 flights a day? And heck, they'll probably just use non-jetway layouts so they can service multiple flights from a gate, so they might well be able to push 240-250 flights a day from Love.

But they'd better get any agreement really locked down, since, as we know, to Southwest, a 'gentleman's agreement' isn't worth squat.

Steve
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 23):
so they might well be able to push 240-250 flights a day from Love.

But what about the "Master Plan?" Oh the humanity! haha

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 23):

But they'd better get any agreement really locked down, since, as we know, to Southwest, a 'gentleman's agreement' isn't worth squat.

Can't make a gentleman's agreement when you're substituting spoiled brats instead of gentlemen. Like I said, give 'em a few years, they'll be wanting international from DAL next.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:43 am

It seems to me that DFW is telling DAL how to do business and run an airport. If DFW is so afraid of competition, they should stay on the porch. Airports are out to do business and make money, its purely competition like I said.

Same goes to the airlines. They don't complain about each other, but they still do compete with fares.

IMO, DFW needs to back off, do its own thing and let DAL do its own thing.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
Airports are out to do business and make money,

Actually airports are out to break even. A governing body cannot use an airport as a revenue source to fund other government functions.
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 15):
Removing the Wright Amendment is not the goal of people in favor of removing the Wright Amendment. The goal is increased competition for air service in the North Texas market. Removing the Wright Amendment and then restricting gates so that no expansion of air service takes place still does not satisfy the goal of increased competition. If DAL was limited to 18 gates, the fires would continue to burn and nothing would be settled. The issue would then become allowing more gates at DAL and would continue to be a hot political topic until relief from AA's high air fares is delivered.

If increased competition is the goal of the pro repeal people then why are they only exploring one option to gain this so called competition? Why not campaign to get WN to fly from DFW instead? Same goal and same results right?

Oh I know why because the only people who want to repeal the WA are Southwest Airlines and their employees.

Dal wanna be you can only stack your BS just so high before it falls overs and swallows you up!
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
stirling
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
the only people who want to repeal the WA are Southwest Airlines and their employees.

I am not affliated with Southwest Airlines in any way....but I support repeal.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
DAL people are hypocrites. They want unfettered access, but yet they don't want noise. So they complain about American's Super80's being noisy

The noise issue came into play because of AA's funding of this "Stop and Think" campaign...which tried to play the noise card...("I can't jog because of the noise!")....even though AA flys the noisiest commercial passenger carrying flights into Love. The talk of noise is purely defensive in nature.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
the noise issue never really got raised over old 727 freighters, business jets, nor Southwest's old 732's up until last year's retirement.

I think WN started supporting repeal after the 732 fleet was retired. (?)

As for the biz jets, nothing can be done about them unless Love is closed and that will never happen, so why belabour the point? (But some invariably will from time to time)

The freighters do not make up a significant amount of traffic at Love. How many flights a day are we talking about? Not many.
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atrude777
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
Oh I know why because the only people who want to repeal the WA are Southwest Airlines and their employees.

I am not affiliated and i want W.A repealed. It was repealed for STL, I am a STL flyer because it was repealed it made it cheaper for me to fly to Dallas. I thank them for that.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):

If increased competition is the goal of the pro repeal people then why are they only exploring one option to gain this so called competition? Why not campaign to get WN to fly from DFW instead? Same goal and same results right?

Why not campaign and repeal the W.A, same goal and results right?
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 22):
Don't worry... with the way they have politics tied around their finger down there... if they get Wright lifted, they'll blow through that DAL Master Plan, and the lack of INS at DAL so quickly it'll make your head spin. Logical thinking would say that's another good reason for them to move up to DFW now and get it over with... but they'll just whine some more to get more laws changed in their benefit.

I can see why you really do not approve of WN so much. I still like the airline and how it runs things tho. Basically what it is doing is doing everything it can to make money.

Ok, from seeing your side so much more, as well as other people who have the same problems as you have, I know why you make such arguments. They are going to go international. I think I can see it on the horizon and there will be demand for cheaper fares from Dallas to places in the Caribbean. I can almost feel it. If they do intend to go through with this, then yes, they should take the offer of having their own part of DFW, pay for the international use because it will be necessary. I think that would be easier than adding an international facility to Love Field, but is this really going to happen???

For the record, I am not kissing up here or changing my mind here just for the hell of it if any of you think as such. I still do not like what the W.A. has done, but if WN intends to go international as well as serve the entire country, the DFW is probably their only option...

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 22):
Logical thinking would say that's another good reason for them to move up to DFW now and get it over with... but they'll just whine some more to get more laws changed in their benefit.

Eh, then let 'em whine... They can't have it both ways...

Just curious, I was looking at something about USAir on the web and saw something from a 1985 fliar about why US fares are so low and other things as well. I know that they didn't have that many aircraft (Bach 1-11, Fokker, Dc9, 727 and 737 I believe) they were strictly a domestic carrier at the time, and yet, they went international ultimately... They were probably considered a legacy carrier at the time anyway, so this little bit here is probably irrelevant... I apologise if it is...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 19):
Might as well keep the Wright Amendment.

I beleive you were refering to a commment by the reporter.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 28):
I am not affliated with Southwest Airlines in any way....but I support repeal.

And this will ensure repeal. What is it with you people? You get a bone sufficient for Southwest needs and you want the whole cow? That's just stupid.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
It seems to me that DFW is telling DAL how to do business and run an airport. If DFW is so afraid of competition, they should stay on the porch. Airports are out to do business and make money, its purely competition like I said.

Airports are out to break even. Any significant profit results in a rate structure change the following year. Airport infrastructure is regional in nature and in this case, both airports serve the same market. A regional solution lifts Wright and ends this issue and forces both airports to work together. God forbid that happen.

What will we talk about when all is said and done? Anyone???
 
cjpark
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 29):
Why not campaign and repeal the W.A, same goal and results right?

There is no need to repeal the WA.

Have you ever flown any other airline besides WN?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 32):
There is no need to repeal the WA.

Yes, there's a clear need to repeal the WA. It's anticompetitive. Of course, we've been over this ad nauseum.

Quote:

Have you ever flown any other airline besides WN?

Yes, likely more than you have, all paid by me, in both paid Y/F domestic and paid Y/J/F int'l (mostly paid J).

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 24):
Can't make a gentleman's agreement when you're substituting spoiled brats instead of gentlemen. Like I said, give 'em a few years, they'll be wanting international from DAL next.

Nice job of revisionism there. WN was never a party to any agreement. The WA was a big middle finger to Dallas from Ft. Worth. Some gentleman's agreement.
 
atrude777
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rul

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 32):

There is no need to repeal the WA.

Have you ever flown any other airline besides WN?

No need to force carriers over to DFW either.


Yes, I have flown Southwest Airlines, America West, American Airlines, Northwest Airlines, Delta Airlines, Delta Express, RegionsAir/Corporate, ATA, Mesaba, and lastly TWA.

And before you ask, yes I have also PAID out of my own pocket for quite a few of these flights too..........What is your point in asking me this?

Alex

[Edited 2006-04-08 04:35:08]
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 33):

Nice job of revisionism there. WN was never a party to any agreement. The WA was a big middle finger to Dallas from Ft. Worth. Some gentleman's agreement.

Wrong. WN's agreement was like a common-law marriage, by staying at DAL. If they didn't agree, they would have never stayed at DAL to begin with. Besides, if there was no Wright Amendment, DAL would have been ka-put long ago. It saved WN's ass, and then kept them monopolized long enough to go from a halfassed operator of ugly-colored 737's, to the empire they are today.
 
floorrunner
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
Oh I know why because the only people who want to repeal the WA are Southwest Airlines and their employees.

I am not affiliated with them either and I favor repeal.
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 35):
Wrong. WN's agreement was like a common-law marriage, by staying at DAL. If they didn't agree, they would have never stayed at DAL to begin with. Besides, if there was no Wright Amendment, DAL would have been ka-put long ago. It saved WN's ass, and then kept them monopolized long enough to go from a halfassed operator of ugly-colored 737's, to the empire they are today.

Not wrong. WN came along after the signatories agreed to move all traffic to DFW. They couldn'tve signed as they didn't exist. The agreements to move from Love to D/FW were voluntary on the part of the airlines and as multiple state and federal courts all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States decided time and time again, WN was no party to those agreements and was not bound by them. Kinda hard to argue with the Supremes, innit??

WN was already doing very well by the time 1979 and deregulation rolled around. They'd created a niche for themselves with intra-Texas service. They had no monopoly on anything. Nothing was preventing other startups for doing EXACTLY what WN had. Had AA, TI or BN really wanted to get cutthroat, they could've 'invested' in a startup and gone head to head with WN to try to kill them off. Instead they tried to choke them in court and got slapped down at every turn. Why? They were wrong.

The ONLY reason the Wright Amendment was introduced, much less passed, was because Jim Wright happened to be the Speaker of the House from Ft. Worth. Ft. Worth happened to have some MAJOR sour grapes over Dallas being able to support an airport while it could not. It wasn't a gentleman's agreement of any sort. It was protectionism at the behest of the incumbent airlines at D/FW. They found a sympathetic ear in Jim Wright. Had WN started up at Alliance in Ft. Worth, you never would've heard ANY of this. Of course, Ft. Worth can't sustain the traffic and never could. Had WN done so, they'd be a curious footnote in commercial air service history now.

Say what you want, the majority of the country thinks Wright is an anachronism, is anticompetitive and is overdue for repeal. The only reason D/FW is even talking compromise is because they know if they don't come up with something and fast, Congress is going to solve their problem and Kay Bailey won't be able to stop 'em.

[Edited 2006-04-08 06:41:30]
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 37):
Say what you want, the majority of the country thinks Wright is an anachronism

The majority of this country doesn't know the Wright Amendment exists nor Love Field either, and with their limited network the majority of this country wouldn't know Southwest exists were it not for their proliferation of TV ads.
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 38):
The majority of this country doesn't know the Wright Amendment exists nor Love Field either, and with their limited network the majority of this country wouldn't know Southwest exists were it not for their proliferation of TV ads.

The wright amendment? The people may not know what it is specifically; their lawmakers do, and that's all that matters. The lawmakers know their constituents want lower fares, more competition and more air service.

As for a limited network, maybe back in 1984. They don't go all the places the majors go but that's not their business model. That's where one of the legacy carriers' niches lie, getting people to and from secondary markets and earning a premium for doing so. Another is intercontinental travel and still another is premium traffic. WN does not and won't ever do any of the above.

I suspect you simply abhor WN for some contrived reason. Thankfully, you're in the minority (albeit a VERY vocal one).

All too humorous how you're completely unable to refute any of my earlier points.

[Edited 2006-04-08 06:39:12]
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 39):
The lawmakers know their constituents want lower fares, more competition and more air service.

There are more lawmakers in districts where Southwest servicing DAL won't matter than there are lawmakers in districts where Southwest does matter.

Current Wright states gain nothing, and possibly lose the "unofficial" connecting passengers if a Wright repeal goes through.

Residents of Alaska, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Both Dakotas, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, West Virginia, Delaware, New Jersey, Vermont, Maine, and I'm sure I'm missing a few at this hour of night don't care about a company that obviously doesn't care about their states. So why are their congressmen going to care?
 
AAgent
Posts: 540
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 11:41 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 38):
The majority of this country doesn't know the Wright Amendment exists nor Love Field either...

Now that is the honest truth. Besides the Airliners.net gang, the employee groups of both American/American Eagle and Southwest, a handful of the most frequent fliers and a smattering of politicians, most of the rest of the country doesn't have a clue what any of this is about...nor do they care. Even on Airliners.net where members snap up any airline related news, you'll still see posts such as, "What's the Wright Amendment?" Clearly, if there are die-hard airline fans out there that still don't know what the Wright Amendment is, then much of the rest of the county is most assuredly in the dark...and quite happily so.

Best Regards,
AAgent


(Edited for grammar)

[Edited 2006-04-08 06:55:13]
War Eagle!
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 14):
This is probably the opening offer from DFW. Then DAL will counter with 40 gates and back and forth, blah blah blah until WN ends up with a max of 20 (just a random number), and 12 more (or whatever) for everyone else.

I believe this is how it will ultimately play itself out. DFW says 18 gates, Love Field Master Plan says 32. So they split the difference and go with 25 gates, 10 flights a day per gate, with the 250 flight per day maximum as prescribed in the Master Plan.

An even bigger question is how those 25 gates get divvied up. A stipulation would have to be put in place to ensure gates would actually be utilized, and not just leased and sit empty to keep others from entering the airport. Something like a five flight per day minimum, even if it means sharing a gate with another airline to ensure the minimum number is met...
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:04 pm

Current Wright states can gain plenty, as it'll give them more opportunities to get elsewhere on WN that they might not be able to currently. An example; currently if you want to fly LAS-OKC on WN you have one nonstop, a one stop through PHX or a connection in PHX. Three options, that's it. Via DAL, WN could offer many more connecting opportunities and/or through flights. Right now, they can't leverage any DAL traffic to points beyond the Wright 'fence'. The ability to do so would benefit ANYONE in a Wright state.

For the states you mention, their congressmen likely won't care. They don't need to. The senators from states that DO care will most likely draft the legislation and attach it to a bill as an amendment. What you're forgetting is that most congresspeople from two of the most populous states (Texas and California) will care and will be on board with a repeal as well as those from FL, PA, RI, NY, IL, etc etc. Those are the bulk of the country's population centers and the bulk of the House membership.

The rest, they won't have a dog in the hunt and will abstain. Why expend political capital when it's not your fight? Even if a group does band together and tries to fight it, the numbers are against them. The point is, Kay Bailey and the Ft. Worth congressional delegation do not have the capital in Washington to overturn the tide currently running against the Wright Amendment. They know it. Again, if they didn't, they wouldn't be talking compromise. Politics worked for Ft. Worth and D/FW the first time, it's going to work against them this time.

[Edited 2006-04-08 07:14:09]
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:35 pm

Hahahahaha!!!!
I can't believe some of you...to insinuate that any person who supports a repeal of the WA works for Southwest or only flies Southwest. And even if that were the case, why would that matter?
So, I suppose if you don't support repeal of the WA that you work for American or only fly American't?
I don't get why DFW has any concern in this? They don't make a profit, or a loss, as someone pointed out earlier. They'd just raise or lower their fees to the airlines that use the airport.
What's the threat?
What's the difference if an aircraft flies from DAL to ABQ or from DAL to MDW?
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HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 33):
Nice job of revisionism there. WN was never a party to any agreement. The WA was a big middle finger to Dallas from Ft. Worth. Some gentleman's agreement.

Hmmm, wasn't Herbie a co-writer of the Wright? He fought it at first, forced Jimmy to make a few revisions, and the two ultimately made a compromise that exists currently as the admendment. This relationship is why Herbie came out and said WN will NEVER fight Wright and the airline would adopt a "passionate neutrality" attitude towards it.

Quoting Floorrunner (Reply 36):
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
Oh I know why because the only people who want to repeal the WA are Southwest Airlines and their employees.

I am not affiliated with them either and I favor repeal.

Well I'm not affiliated with either airline, and I am against repeal.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 44):
I don't get why DFW has any concern in this? They don't make a profit, or a loss, as someone pointed out earlier. They'd just raise or lower their fees to the airlines that use the airport.
What's the threat?
What's the difference if an aircraft flies from DAL to ABQ or from DAL to MDW?

Ask the tens of thousands of people who have a job because of DFW why the airport is so interested in this debate. DFW was designed to be THE airport for the metroplex - it spent 30 plus years attracting airlines and doing its best to create an environment that fosters all airlines competing equally with each other for North Texas passengers. It wouldn't be difference if one aircraft went to MDW instead of ABQ, but there is a difference when ONE airline wants a monopoly on flying from that airport to every other airport in the country they currently service.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
blsbls99
Posts: 341
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:07 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:58 pm

Oh so DFW is looking out for the best interest of it's employees.
And now Southwest wants a monopoly on service out of DAL.
Tell me something I can believe.
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting Blsbls99 (Reply 47):
Oh so DFW is looking out for the best interest of it's employees.
And now Southwest wants a monopoly on service out of DAL.
Tell me something I can believe.

That's just as believable as WN proclaiming itself to be the Johnny Appleseed of low fares.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:31 pm

>>Ask the tens of thousands of people who have a job because of DFW why the airport is so interested in this debate. DFW was designed to be THE airport for the metroplex - it spent 30 plus years attracting airlines and doing its best to create an environment that fosters all airlines competing equally with each other for North Texas passengers. It wouldn't be difference if one aircraft went to MDW instead of ABQ, but there is a difference when ONE airline wants a monopoly on flying from that airport to every other airport in the country they currently service.<<

I wish someone would show me where Southwest Airlines Co has indicated that they are afteer monopoly status at Dallas Love Field.

Their position at Love has seldom been a monopoly.

After DFW opened and most airlines vacated Love Field, Braniff (despite having been a signatory to the DFW bonds and agreeing to move all operations to DFW) was allowed to run flights in/out of Love Field in order to compete with Southwest.

The same thing is true with Texas International. And Continental. And yes, even American has gone in and out of Love Field despite having agreed to move all flights to DFW.

American is an excellent example. Yes, they agreed to move all operations to DFW. Signed the letter and everything. Yet they were able to move over to Love Field and offer 14 round trips a day to Austin in some sort of bizarre experiment to try and hurt Southwest. I don't recall anyone at DFW screaming about American violating their agreement. Then they decided (and succeeded) in putting Legend out of business. Now they've come to Love Field and are running flights to AUS, SAT, MCI, and STL. You don't see the DFW Airport Board sueing American to force them to abide by an agreement they signed to move all operations to DFW, do you?

People can call Love Field a virtual monopoly all they want,, since Southwest is so dominant there. But the real bottom line is any and all airlines who have wanted to come in and serve Love Field and compete vs Southwest have been allowed to do so. It just hasn't been real lucrative for the ones that have gone that route. And fortunately, despite the virtual monopoly, Southwest has never chosen to take advantage of the situation by bending passengers over a table.

As far as the reduction in gates, I'm not sure why that could be viewed as a good idea....but if I were Southwest, I would look at giving up gates in exchange for gate space at LaGuardia and (especially) Washington National. American has a lot of space at DCA. I don't see why they should not be forced to give up gates there to Southwest.

American, or other carriers, may complain that Southwest should be forced to give up space at Love Field. Okay fine. Those other carriers, who were in business before Southwest began operations and, as a result, got a head start at grabbing all the gates at DCA....should have to share.