SonicZoom87
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Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:17 am

Well just as the heading asks, I want to know what is the ETOPS for a Boeing 747-400.

Thanxxx
 
SoBe
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:19 am

ETOPS does not apply to aircraft with more than 2 engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS
 
adipasqu
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:19 am

0

ETOPS is for twins only.
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N328KF
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:20 am

ETOPS = Extended Twin-engine OPerationS

Now ask yourself, "how many engines does a 747-400 have?"
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ba747yyz
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:50 am

None, would be my guess.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Now ask yourself, "how many engines does a 747-400 have?"

That's easy: 4. Why else would they call it a 747?
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boeingfanyyz
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
7

Or does it have 7 engines!?

Cheers,
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skibum9
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Now ask yourself, "how many engines does a 747-400 have?"

That's easy: 4. Why else would they call it a 747?

With that line of thinking, please explain the 707....My god I hope that it had engines, the 717.... I guess the other one is for looks ..... the 727....I guess the third inlet is to provide ram air for the interior cabin... the 737....must of lost an engine in flight somewhere (must have been designed for Kalitta), the 767..... can't figure out where they are hiding the extra four engine....and the 777, maybe each engine really counts as 3.5 engines given their size. The things that make you go hmmmmm......
Tailwinds!!!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
With that line of thinking, please explain the 707....

lost our sense of humor today, have we?  banghead 
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skibum9
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 8):
Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
With that line of thinking, please explain the 707....

lost our sense of humor today, have we?

Thought you were serious....it is getting late and I've been thrashing to long on the DL threads!
Tailwinds!!!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:28 pm

ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft. It's in study right now. And yes, the T will no longer refer to "twin" once that is changed.

The thinking is that the need for emergency landing locations and facilities to handle the passengers due to serious medical problem or cargo bay fire, for example (one reason for ETOPS that has nothing to do with engine out), does not depend on the number of engines a jet has. ETOPS for non-twins would deal with suitable diversion airports along a route in a more structured way.
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studentflyer
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft. It's in study right now. And yes, the T will no longer refer to "twin" once that is changed.

For the time being, it should be applied to BA 747s... The T would stand for trijet...

Sorry, just couldn't help myself.

But yes, I do agree if ETOPS does get applied to all aircraft. I agree with Ikramerica here!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting StudentFlyer (Reply 11):
For the time being, it should be applied to BA 747s... The T would stand for trijet...

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft.

Doesn't it actually apply already today for all aircraft? After all, it also means Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim.  Wink

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
The thinking is that the need for emergency landing locations and facilities to handle the passengers due to serious medical problem or cargo bay fire, for example (one reason for ETOPS that has nothing to do with engine out), does not depend on the number of engines a jet has. ETOPS for non-twins would deal with suitable diversion airports along a route in a more structured way.

It may all depend also on how the FAA and JAA see things IMO, which is why an application of ETOPS for all aircraft and not only twins is being studied (one of the possible names for this might be LROPS, which stands for Long Range Operations). I believe the JAA in Europe currently only certifies aircraft and airlines for up to ETOPS 180 while the FAA and other aviation authorities do contemplate ratings such as ETOPS 207 and 330 (when ETOPS 330 actually happens). Why is it that the JAA doesn't certify aircraft for ETOPS ratings higher than 180? I recall there was a reason for that, but I don't remember the details right now.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
Doesn't it actually apply already today for all aircraft? After all, it also means Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

no , it means

Enticing
Treats
for
Oour
Pacific
Sharks

anyway - I believe the term these days is EROPS just meaning Extended Range OPs - and those are the standards which all long haul a/c , not just twins , must meet
 
SCEagle
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
ETOPS = Extended Twin-engine OPerationS

Now ask yourself, "how many engines does a 747-400 have?"

Are we talking about a BA aircraft, or a different one?
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:23 pm

ETOPS = Engines Turn Or People Swim
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N160LH
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:33 pm

When ETOPS started it referred to twin's and tri's (the 727)... However, I have heard that studies are suggesting that in the future every FAR 121 certified aircraft will have its own ETOPS rating... Meaning that each aircraft will be maintained with ETOPS MX pratices, and have its own unique time allotment from alternate airports...

N160LH
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N1120A
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):

anyway - I believe the term these days is EROPS just meaning Extended Range OPs - and those are the standards which all long haul a/c , not just twins , must meet

The term is still ETOPS because EROPS doesn't exist yet.

Quoting N160LH (Reply 16):
When ETOPS started it referred to twin's and tri's (the 727)...

No, it only applied to twins, not trijets. The DC-10 and L1011 never had to deal with ETOPS
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spencer
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:46 pm

I think the application to all aircraft is to be called LROPS, but just how will it be applied to all aircraft though? I mean, the ETOPS ruling is such that the distance to the nearest ETOPS equipped airport is within a certain time frame for a twin, not a tri or quad. By the way and just out of interest, I read that the chances of an engine loss on a quad is higher than that on a twin, which probably makes sense actually due that a quad has twice the number of engines, ie twice the probability than that of a twin! What's today's upper limit, (according to the capability of the airline), isn't it 180 minutes? Or is it 207 minutes (180 +15%). I know there's a proposal for a 240 minute "extension" and even with a possible 330minute certification. Isn't the latter just what the new 773ER was made for? Is the 777LR free from ETOPS restrictions?
Spencer.

[Edited 2006-04-08 10:46:54]
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kiwiandrew

RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
The term is still ETOPS because EROPS doesn't exist yet.

ooops - when does EROPS kick in - is it still just a concept or is there a definite date when it applies to all types regardless of number of engines ?
 
N1120A
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:06 pm

Quoting Spencer (Reply 18):
What's today's upper limit, (according to the capability of the airline), isn't it 180 minutes? Or is it 207 minutes (180 +15%).

The upper limit is ETOPS 180 with a case by case (almost always over the North Pacific) application 180 + 15% or ETOPS 207

Quoting Spencer (Reply 18):
I know there's a proposal for a 240 minute "extension" and even with a possible 330minute certification.

ETOPS 330 would basically eliminate all the rest of the ETOPS no go areas from the map

Quoting Spencer (Reply 18):
Isn't the latter just what the new 773ER was made for? Is the 777LR free from ETOPS restrictions?

The 777LR is still subject to ETOPS rules. It is a twin after all. As far as ETOPS 330 goes, Boeing did the testing for it with the prototype 773ER, but that is simply because it was the first new long range twin after the proposal. It would most likely also be available on the 772LR as well and the 787 and A350

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
ooops - when does EROPS kick in - is it still just a concept or is there a definite date when it applies to all types regardless of number of engines ?

I don't think a definate date has been decided
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monteycarlos
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:11 pm

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Thread starter):
Well just as the heading asks, I want to know what is the ETOPS for a Boeing 747-400.

Man I haven't seen anyone get quite that roasted for a long time!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft. It's in study right now. And yes, the T will no longer refer to "twin" once that is changed.

Yeah, EROPS which will eventually become LROPS... However if it is redefined at all is contentious right now. Hell the way aircraft are going we won't need either!
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pavlin
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:56 pm

Good topic. Need more questions like this
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 4):
None, would be my guess.

Smartest thing I've read in Civ-Av in six months.
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bond007
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 4):
None, would be my guess.

Smartest thing I've read in Civ-Av in six months.

It would have been if he didn't say 'my guess' !!

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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 7):
the 727....I guess the third inlet is to provide ram air for the interior cabin... the 737....must of lost an engine in flight somewhere

The 727 should have been the 737, and vice versa. What were they thinking?  Smile

Quoting Spencer (Reply 18):
I think the application to all aircraft is to be called LROPS,



Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 21):

Yeah, EROPS which will eventually become LROPS.

Didn't Navy Aviation have something similar called "LOROPS"?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
citationjet
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Now ask yourself, "how many engines does a 747-400 have?"



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 5):
That's easy: 4. Why else would they call it a 747?



Quoting Boeingfanyyz (Reply 6):
Or does it have 7 engines!?

Or does it have 5 engines?

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Or does it have 3 engines?

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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting SonicZoom87 (Thread starter):
Well just as the heading asks, I want to know what is the ETOPS for a Boeing 747-400.

I'm going to guess here you're asking how long a 747 can fly on two engines (assuming it loses two of it's four unit in flight).

The answer to that question is "until it runs out of fuel".  Smile
 
spencer
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:37 am

Talking of 747s shutting down, remember the BA Lump that flew through volcanic ash and had a full 4 engine shutdown?! The a/c dropped to 12,000 before re-ignition and made it to Jakarta! I think the biggest problem they had was the landing, as the windscreen had been totally sand-blasted by the ash! So, it happens, even to quads!
Spencer.
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N160LH
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):

No, it only applied to twins, not trijets. The DC-10 and L1011 never had to deal with ETOPS

No it applied to the 727 when it first came out, but you are right about the DC-10 and L-1011... Just did a research paper on ETOPS MX...

Turbine engines such as the Pratt and Whitney JT8D series in the 1950s and 1960s demonstrated that they had much higher thrust and reliability than any then available piston engines. It was then powering the 2-engined Boeing 737 series and 3-engined Boeing 727. Because of its excellent record, the '60-minute rule' was waived for 3-engined Boeing 727 allowing it to fly transatlantic routes. This opened the way for the development of widebody intercontinental trijets such as Lockheed L-1011 Tristar and McDonnell Douglas DC-10.

A quick little reference I used on my paper... -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

"Because of its excellent record, the '60-minute rule' was waived for 3-engined Boeing 727 allowing it to fly transatlantic routes." However, this did not happen immediately after production...

N160LH
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tommybp251b
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft

We also could name the Etops for a 747 "EFOPS": Extended four-engine operations.  Wink
Tom from Cologne
 
Julius2005
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:16 am

Think that in normal conditions ETOPS do not apply to B747's, could someone explain me what isit all about???
JRHAV
 
spencer
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Julius2005 (Reply 31):
Think that in normal conditions ETOPS do not apply to B747's, could someone explain me what isit all about???

Basically Julio, if I've understood your question right, then the chance a twin with an engine out (ie. running on one engine) making it to its destination isn't very likely, hence certain parameters have been enforced, called the ETOPS rule, which gives a/c in trouble the option of landing at the nearest ETOPS equipped airport. Such things as maintenance, general passenger facilities and emergency eqpt should be at these airports too. The rule states that the a/c should be able to fly to the nearest ETOPS equipped airport within a specific time frame, whether that be 60 minutes or 207 minutes; there's various ranges on this depending on the airline/type. Four engined a/c are not covered nor governed by ETOPS ruling due to the simple fact that they have more than two engines, which is deemed more safer to fly with should it loose an engine. Hope the generalisation helps a little.
Spencer.
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Airportgal
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
ETOPS will eventually be redefined to apply to all aircraft. It's in study right now. And yes, the T will no longer refer to "twin" once that is changed.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
The term is still ETOPS because EROPS doesn't exist yet.

I believe the term being bantered around is LROPS - Long Range Operations.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Boeing 747-400 Etops?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
ETOPS = Extended Twin-engine OPerationS

Common mistake. It's actually "Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards".

LROPS stands for "Long Range Operational Performance Standards"
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