kl692
Posts: 636
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What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:21 pm

I have been monitoring KLM is I join this site and KLM being my fav airline. Well I have notice that they have be running into problems with the B744 and it is costing them to delay flights and in some cases cancel the flight. Now I don't know if this how they have always been but from what I heard about them before my first flight, it was all good. I think it is a great airline and if they want to hold that title then maybe it might be best for them to get rid of the b744 on some route as some of the route that they this A/C problem with is a big one.
Anyways I just want to run this by you all and see what you guys and gals think about this.thanks
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
CXA330300
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:31 pm

Perhaps they could do with getting rid of a few.....but not all. The 744 is the needed capacity for some of the routes, such as JNB or BKK.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
sk601
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:10 pm

IMO the main problem is that KL has not enough aircraft in order to operate the flight schedule. If there are a few aircraft out of service due to technical problems, than it will have too much of an impact on daily operations since there are hardly any spare aircraft available. KL has a large fleet, but it consists of too many different aircraft. They have 2 types B747-400 (full-pax and combi), MD11, B777, B767 and A330. In the narrow body fleet they have F50/70/100 and B737-300/400/800/900.

Since last week, the new summer schedule is in effect and KL introduced one extra "wave". In order to operate this extra wave of flights with the same number of aircraft, the turn-around times are short; resulting in a snowball-effect in case there is a delay.

KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.  mad 
 
FlySSC
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Perhaps they could do with getting rid of a few.....



Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL has a large fleet, but it consists of too many different aircraft. They have 2 types B747-400 (full-pax and combi), MD11, B777, B767 and A330. In the narrow body fleet they have F50/70/100 and B737-300/400/800/900.

KLM started its fleet renewal too late, hence the situation now.
Their big mistake is that they kept those MD-11...
The policy chosen by AFKL is to get rid off all the -Combi (as AF did already many years ago).
The long-haul fleet should be reduced as soon as possible to B744 (?), B77X/A332.
 
kl692
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.

They have some many technical issues with B744 since last week. Flight from YYZ to AMS was cancel last week due to technical issues with b744. KL should really think about replacing the B744 into something else othewise they might end with big problems on their hand later on in the near future.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
EddieDude
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
The policy chosen by AFKL is to get rid off all the -Combi (as AF did already many years ago).
The long-haul fleet should be reduced as soon as possible to B744 (?), B77X/A332.

So, what do you think will happen when all the 744 Combis are retired? Will MEX be served with a 744 or with 772ER's?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:11 am

Nothing wrong with KL itself. But with 80plus% loadfactors and 100% usage of the fleet the schedules get mixed up a bit sometimes.
Thankfully we can send pax via Paris to their destinations sometimes, barring strikes in that country  Wink so they don't have to wait a full day for the next flight.
The Fokker fleet is a problem as SK601 mentions already but they're working on it. KLC directors and KL mainline people are constantly trying to improve the operation. In summer the problem is less as the little Fokkers  Cool (so cool to say that) are very susceptible to weather-caused inbound delays.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
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yowza
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Their big mistake is that they kept those MD-11...

So what exactly is wrong with the MD11? To the best of my knowledge they have been great workhorses for KL and have not been all that problematic. Certainly no more problematic than their fleet of Fokkers. As for the 744, I'm sure that problems with one A/C will propagate and cause problems elsewhere but that is an A/C availability issue rather than a specific knock on the 744. Look at BA, they don't seem to be having too many problems with that type.

YOWza
 
Checo77
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:56 am

The main problem NOW is that one B744 is out of operation because of an incident in AMS. As soon as this plane returns, the problem will be resolved.
As for the MD-11, I think they suit KLM perfectly, sending them to high-density, low-yield holiday destinations mainly. I am flying KLM longhaul EWR-AMS this summer and I am really hoping for the A332, so I am praying there will not be any fleet mess at that time.
Regards,
Adam
Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
 
kl692
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 8):
The main problem NOW is that one B744 is out of operation because of an incident in AMS. As soon as this plane returns, the problem will be resolved.

Are you reffering to the A/C that had a push back problem back in FEB this year? if so, I beleive this A/C is back on dutie. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
jwenting
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:06 am

the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

Combis have always served KLM well, because KLM is a cargo heavy airline. As cargo is far more profitable than are passengers combis are cashcows. AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement without scrapping routes maybe?

The MD11s are serving very well indeed. The only problem with them is that they're relatively expensive and cumbersome to maintain because of the tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service but has for some reason been sped up (I guess once again to please the French who don't seem to like the aircraft which has always been one of the most reliable and most profitable in the KLM fleet).
So now KLM is short some 5 or so widebodies.
At the same time the F50s are disappearing while their replacements are delayed, causing a further shortage of aircraft on European routes.
I wish I were flying
 
Scorpio
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

Shit man, you don't give up, do you?  Yeah sure

Your posts suggest you know quite a bit about aviation, but you constant ridiculous jabs at Air France and anything even remotely French make you a charicature more that anything.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement without scrapping routes maybe?

Give me one, just ONE, reason why AF wouldn't "like" the fact that the combis are cash cows. Nothing has been decided about the replacement of any of the 744 conbis at KL. And they'll have to replace them sooner or later because no new Combi models are certified anymore.

And no that's not the fault of the Evil French.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service but has for some reason been sped up

I don't see how the 767 retirement is 'sped up'. It seems they're being retired right according to the schedule. And they're being replaced: the first one was replaced by the tenth 777, the next three by the first three A330s, number five again by a 777.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
I guess once again to please the French who don't seem to like the aircraft which has always been one of the most reliable and most profitable in the KLM fleet

*yawn* Then why did KLM decide to replace it? And no, it wasn't the French, as the replacement was decided well ahead of the takeover by AF. I've said it before (but, not surprisingly, you chose to ignore that): the main reason for their replacement is cargo.
 
lijnden
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:40 am

I agree with Jwenting that the french are slowly making KLM into an airline that is not KLM anymore. Look alone how dirty the KLM planes are now! KLM planes were always very clean, it were the Air France planes that were famous for being dirty!

The Air France agenda is only meant for Air France and Paris. It is clear the french are slowly draining the airline (financially and client-wise) to the end, like they did with all the other airliners they controlled.

So, to answer your question on what is wrong with KLM, my answer is the french controlling it.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
Scorpio
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 12):
Look alone how dirty the KLM planes are now!

ROTFLMAO!!! I have to remember that one: AF is evil because KLM planes are dirty! What a joke.  bigthumbsup 
 
padster
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:35 am

Well I have seen one or two dirty F100's at AMS  Wink , the problems I see with KLM is the customer peception of the airline in a few years , AF have only guarenteed the KLM brand for a number of years , after this time their is nothing to stop AF gettting rid of the "KLM " brand , this would no doubt save AF money in the long run as it is cheaper to run one brand instead of two ...

I also think the problems with the F100 going tech every two mins are causing a little concern to KLM cityhopper.
 
eilennaei
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

Honestly, I don't think there's any truth in this. Well, unless replacing #2 engines at an outstation was/is the bread and butter of KLM?
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement

Any proof of that? Why wouldn't they like cash coming in?

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 12):
It is clear the french are slowly draining the airline

Any proof of that? To the contrary I'd say, new fleet has been ordered, new check-in and reservations system should be in place by 2009, Ground Services is being completely reorganised into a very efficient organisation, no expenses spared.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
bobnwa
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

You have been predicting bad things for KLM ever since the AF/KL merger was announced. Not ONE thing you have predicted has ever happened! give it a break!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
Combis have always served KLM well, because KLM is a cargo heavy airline. As cargo is far more profitable than are passengers



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service

the 767 is a great pax plane ( especially back in cattle where 2-3-2 is the nicest config of any widebody ) but lousy in terms of belly space ... if cargo is more important than pax to KL then they should have rid themselves of the 767s sooner rather than later . In any event , I believe that they have been retired on a one-for-one basis as new A330s and 777s are delivered - so they are not being retired before their replacements arrive .
 
DONS
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.

Those Fokkers are the feeders of the wide body fleet, with 5 to 6 flight per day, there's a big chance of going tech. The wide body fleet, departs at AMS only once, maybe two times a day, so there's you perception.

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 6):
The Fokker fleet is a problem as SK601 mentions already but they're working on it. KLC directors and KL mainline people are constantly trying to improve the operation. In summer the problem is less as the little Fokkers (so cool to say that) are very susceptible to weather-caused inbound delays.

I don't see what KL mainline has to do with it (except being 100% shareholder)as maintenance & engineering is done by Martinair

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The MD11s are serving very well indeed. The only problem with them is that they're relatively expensive and cumbersome to maintain because of the tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

If you have to fly in a engine at a outstation, even it's #2 engine, what's the problem of sending the engine change equipment with that shipment. Almost every airline has a QEC (quick engine change kit) standing by for emergencies.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
At the same time the F50s are disappearing while their replacements are delayed, causing a further shortage of aircraft on European routes.

Fleet is steady at 14 F50's for some time now, and as far as I know it will stay this way.

Quoting Padster (Reply 14):
I also think the problems with the F100 going tech every two mins are causing a little concern to KLM cityhopper.

That's why they keep adding them to the fleet, otherwise they have nothing to worry about. If you ask me the F100 is currently doing a lot better than a year ago.
 
MAS777
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:09 am

Personally - I stopped flying KLM eversince AF bought the airline. As a previous Flying Dutchman Gold Elite traveller - things have been on a slide since then. Now happily switched to StarAlliance and no real complains there.
 
DONS
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 20):
Personally - I stopped flying KLM eversince AF bought the airline. As a previous Flying Dutchman Gold Elite traveller - things have been on a slide since then. Now happily switched to StarAlliance and no real complains there.

How do you do that? You stopped flying KL since AF took over, how do you know "things have been on a slide since then"? Must be from hear say I guess?
 
FlySSC
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
So what exactly is wrong with the MD11

Nothing wrong with the MD-11 itself.
It's just that it doesn't fit in a major airline that has to save costs and who is already operating 4 other different a/c type in its Long Haul fleet : B744/A332/B767/B777

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

This is just another kind of bullshit we are used from you.
But after all, "the French" own KLM... so they have the right to do whatever they want with it !  silly 
 
MAS777
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting DONS (Reply 21):
How do you do that? You stopped flying KL since AF took over, how do you know "things have been on a slide since then"? Must be from hear say I guess?

OK - slightly exaggerated that I 'stopped' - my last KLM flight was late last year but instead of booking up to 12-14 return flights a year from LHR (all via AMS) as I used to, 2005 saw only 2 journeys by me on-board KLM.

In comparison to the days when I started flying KLM in the late 1980s - I believe - things have really got much worse. That last flight I took last year was full out of KUL and I found myself in Economy which was fine as GE passengers get that nice little section on their 744s - but the 'snack box meals' that were served (on a longhaul flight) were absolutely diabolical. Crew don't seem to like being part of AF and it shows too unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong - I loved collecting those little miniature houses with KLM but they all seem to have been in vain now. LH's Business Class and SQ Raffles have done a pretty good job at taking over my business sadly for KLM.
 
jwenting
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 15):
Honestly, I don't think there's any truth in this. Well, unless replacing #2 engines at an outstation was/is the bread and butter of KLM?

engines on wings are easily accessible, a ladder or whatever is enough (if that much).
The tail engine is another matter entirely, especially with the labour safety regulations they need to work with requiring extensive scaffolding to allow people to work that high up.
I wish I were flying
 
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LTU932
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Kl692 (Reply 9):
Are you reffering to the A/C that had a push back problem back in FEB this year? if so, I beleive this A/C is back on dutie. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure.

I believe the pushback problem happened in AMS.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
So what exactly is wrong with the MD11? To the best of my knowledge they have been great workhorses for KL and have not been all that problematic.

Agreed. The MD-11 is perfect for KL as far as cargo and passenger capacity goes for the destinations they serve with it.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The MD11s are serving very well indeed. The only problem with them is that they're relatively expensive and cumbersome to maintain because of the tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

You have to remember that KL has been operating Douglas TriJets since the 70's (when they were introducing the DC-10-30), so as far as costs go, I'd say KL knows what to do and how to operate the MD-11 efficiently. Their experience with the DC-10 should have helped them prepare for the introduction of the MD-11 in terms of operations and maintenance.

My personal experience with KL wasn't that good, but I was 7 back then and didn't know anything about KL, and if I had the chance going back in time and fly KL in that period again, I wouldn't hesitate. That being said, if I had a chance of flying with KL today, I'll definitely fly with KL, regardless if they're owned by AF or not.
 
lijnden
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:34 am

RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:34 am

As a life long flying client of KLM for many decades I do see many details and services disappearing since AF took over. It is simple: Air France does not want KLM to have a better product and reputation than themselves and are downgrading the KLM product to a bare minimum (= Air France levels?). Just by reading the threads about KLM on this very site say enough about what has happened to KLM in the past few years. And yes, unfortunaly it is true Air France controls KLM and can and are doing with it as they please. However, it will not change my opinion that I simply do not trust the french, due to their own history, having the best in mind for KLM or any other airline for that matter.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
kl692
Posts: 636
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 22):
This is just another kind of bullshit we are used from you.
But after all, "the French" own KLM... so they have the right to do whatever they want

I thought this was a merge to form the new Skyteam.

I don't understand why the French would won't to bring KL down if they do indeed own KL. what would be the point of them buying Kl and then drag it down cause they want AF to look better than Kl. I mean that makes no sense in my books cause if that is what they are trying to do then won't them French's will loosing money. After all this airlines are after money so I don't really beleive that AF is trying to drag KL down. Or whatever the reason for Kl lack of A/C and having to delay flights needs to stop otherwise KL or AF is gonna find themself in big problem.

It is very simple if KL is own by AF and they go down in terms service, I would not fly AF as I will be getting the same service from them too which in the long run will see pax flying other airlines.
A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
 
singel09
Posts: 135
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:18 am

I fly KLM 3 times a week to various destinations in Europe and very regularly overseas. Occassionaly, I fly Air France as wel, about 20 flights now. Nothing, absoluty nothing convinces me that Air France has a better product. But, since AF and KL are joining forces, KLM did improve their service. Return of newspaper on some EUro routes, return of alcoholic beverages. With the sandwiches, one can notice they are searching for the proper offering, sometimes suffering as there seems no clear understanding what they want themselves. But worse then AF, now way ...

Interesting fact btw is that the L'Espace Premiere, AF's First Class, has a two page article in the Flying Dutchmen Magazine ..

As for the aircraft types, I love the 744 .. I fly quarterly or more to LAX, since 97, and never a tech cancellation. Only one return in flight when fuel valves in the wings seemed not operating as they should.

The MD-11, great bird, loosy seat comfort.

F100/F70 .. give me that anytime, any dy, quiet, and now they are retrofitting them, new feeling to them. Never a tech failure on my flights.

My big fear, is to find a 737-400 series on my flight. What a bunch of old garbage. Seat comfort terrible. As for the 800.900, seat comfort [= space] terrible.

A330 I will fly in 3 weeks. INteresting to find out how that will be. It was a pleasant surprise when I flew this type with Northwest. But,

No one can beat the 777 for me. Great comfort, great plane.

Just some experience from a frequent flyer, 37 flights so far this year.

Mause
 
Avianca
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
The policy chosen by AFKL is to get rid off all the -Combi (as AF did already many years ago).

I do not think KL will get rid soon of the Combis, Cargo is a big market for KLM but not big enought to fill CargoJumbos to all destinations they are serving + a normal 744 is too big for many destinations so the Combis are perfect for them.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 8):
The main problem NOW is that one B744 is out of operation because of an incident in AMS. As soon as this plane returns, the problem will be resolved.

That particular B744 has returned to the active fleet on March 29, so at least that problem should be solved by now.
 
eilennaei
Posts: 1003
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 24):
they need to work with requiring extensive scaffolding to allow people to work that high up.

Ok, but that's not called a jig or scaffolding. That's officially called engine maintenance stand, tail stand for short, and one can be seen here:
http://www.kernsteel.com/sale05.htm
The part is the same that has been used for the DC-10. If your MD-11 has to be hangared in a major airport with an engine trouble, changes are very high a suitable stand is already there. You'd also be using the stand when you're A-checking the a/c, but would you schedule the A-check somewhere without the stand?
As far as I know, there's not even a spare engine in existence for the Finnair MD-11s, that would be a major investment with a very poor retun, since major engine trouble is so rare. It's better to invest in an engine condition follow-up program.

[Edited 2006-04-09 04:04:27]
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:02 pm

I do not believe that the presence of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is jeopardizing the stability of the KLM longhaul operation in large part. Overall, a subfleet of 10 airframes is regarded as a stable component of an airline operation. The relatively small subfleet of 5 B744 full pax, however, is relatively prone to operational instability, and there is no solution in sight for that problem as no extra frames will join the fleet and the 744s are there to stay. So, because YYZ is a dedicated B744 destination, it might be perceived as relatively more sensitive to operational disruptions.

A second problem, is the relatively small A332 fleet, which is currently only 3-strong, with a 4th frame to be added soon. However, this is a transitional phenomenom which is inherent to the introduction of a new aircraft type in any airline's fleet. As the B763 numbers further dwindle, chances are that the 767 operation is more likely to see operational disruptions as well.

KLM's biggest problem, however, has at the same time been a very big boon to the company: it has championed optimization of aircraft utilization and its overall widebody utilization is some of the highest in the world. Over the past year KLM has done away with virtually all long ground times at outstations, and it has also cut turnaround times between trips at its AMS homebase. Ground times in South Africa and South America have vanished with the introduction of daylight southbound operations, and certain destinations in Asia, such as HKG, are also operated according to a more optimal westbound daylight pattern. The only sizeable ground time at outstations currently is a 7-hour ground time at SIN between KL837 and KL838. All other turnaround times are in the order of 1h45 to 3 hours.

This exercise in optimization of available resources has boosted KLM's aircraft utilization and has, without any doubt, had a favorable impact on its bottom line. However, with increased utilization the longhaul operation has lost many degrees of operational freedom (the possibility of overcoming disruptions though availability of spare capacity) and increased the susceptibility of the longhaul operation to operational instability.

I am sure KLM is aware of this issue, but has probably calculated that the increased revenue because of optimized aircraft utilization is outstripping the potential losses because of operational irregularities. As such, I don't believe that we will see a profound change in KLM's longhaul setup in the near future.
 
cxsjr
Posts: 711
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:44 am

RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Their big mistake is that they kept those MD-11...

.... now wash your mouth out!!  mad 
The world is a book, those who do not travel read only one page ....
 
mah584jr
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Over in the states, lots of people seem to think that any tri-jet airplane is outdated, but I absolutely love those MD-11's. I'll never forget the day DL retired its MD-11's. It was a shame to see them go.

As far as the AF/KL merger goes. There are some who think that the merger has bettered KL, while others seem to think that KL has lost its touch. I think it's all how you look at it. A lot of the people that don't like what AF has done to KLM, seem to be quite biased against anything French. The thing is, now that the merger is done, some people are going to take a while to warm up to the fact that AF owns KL. Once those people realize that AF runs a sound business, I think that they'll realize that KL's future is quite bright indeed. Of course, all this is subjective.
 
FlySSC
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 26):
As a life long flying client of KLM for many decades I do see many details and services disappearing since AF took over. It is simple: Air France does not want KLM to have a better product and reputation than themselves

 rotfl 
KL didn't wait for AF to have a crap onboard service, particularly in Business, on Long Haul.
And KL service on European flights has already improved a lot to bring it to AF's level.

The fact is that KLM is in a far better shape since the last 2 years than it was before AF's take over, but some people simply don't wantto admit it.
When something is wrong, it's AF's fault.
But when things are (much) better, well ....

Quoting Avianca (Reply 29):
I do not think KL will get rid soon of the Combis, Cargo is a big market for KLM but not big enought to fill CargoJumbos to all destinations they are serving + a normal 744 is too big for many destinations so the Combis are perfect for them.

Did you hear abour B777F ? There are now others Freightes available on the market, smaller than the B747F.
AF & KL Cargo departement are in process of full merging.
Combis are progresively eliminated from most of the fleets of the world. KLM will not be an exception.
 
qm001
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:11 pm

Hi all,

I am actually glad in some ways that alot of people are now seeing what I had said almost a year ago now. KLM's focus on customers has disappeared, and if they don't fix it yesterday, KLM as a brand will disappear as it will be dragging the AF brand thorugh the mud. I will however defend the french ,in contradiction to most, AF now has a great product, even in Y, great connections, a very modern and efficient fleet, and there service is 10 times better than KLM.

IMO KL needs to spend some more cash upgrading their services to those of AF, I mean can you honestly compare KL Europe Select to AF Affaires? NO NO NO. But they are the same price out of Amsterdam to almost anywhere. In the same light, compare any airlines Euro Business class to KL's. KL's is simply CRAP or a bad joke by comparison.

So then you go to connectivity, AMS is one of KL's biggest assets, and connecting is a pleasure, but you try connecting (and maybe this is getting better, but it wasn't 6 months ago) to KLC, NIGHTMARE, flights delayed and cancelled, all in all disturbing!

Longhaul KL's product is not bad, but they need to understand that they are losing customers to AF and others, and why should they? if they upgraded their WBC to something remotely competitive, then their total offerings would be fantastic. Just give a little more space in Y, and get the FA's to endure some severe attitude adjustment training sessions, start compensating your Gold and platinum travellers with real mileage accrual on all classes and... VOILA! A world class product.

If you want to bash AF go right ahead, but I will always at this moment even on FB rewards, choose AF over KL, yet, KL is still my favorite brand.

Just my 2 cents...

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
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airbuseric
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting Kl692 (Reply 27):
My big fear, is to find a 737-400 series on my flight. What a bunch of old garbage. Seat comfort terrible. As for the 800.900, seat comfort [= space] terrible.

Flying KL myself several times a year in C class, I confirm the seat comfort on 733/734 is terrible indeed, small seats, little legroom, 3-3 configuration.
Although 738 has newer type seats, passenger 'room' is too small.
739 in my opinion is better, offering a 2-3 layout in C, the new seats, and more legroom. From what I've heard, this is because the 739 does also longer runs for KL, hence the better pitch. Also in my opinions, service wise KL became better since the merger with AF. And there is still the kind attention of the KL crew which gives that little extra!
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
sk601
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 35):
The fact is that KLM is in a far better shape since the last 2 years than it was before AF's take over, but some people simply don't wantto admit it.

 checkmark  I agree!

Quoting Airbuseric (Reply 37):
739 in my opinion is better, offering a 2-3 layout in C, the new seats, and more legroom.

Enjoy while you can, because this 2-3 layout will be adjusted in the near future to the 3-3 layout, like the rest of the B737 planes.

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
I mean can you honestly compare KL Europe Select to AF Affaires? NO NO NO. But they are the same price out of Amsterdam to almost anywhere. In the same light, compare any airlines Euro Business class to KL's. KL's is simply CRAP or a bad joke by comparison

I agree with you as well. KL Euro Select cannot be compared with any other C-class product in Europe. That's why KL renamed its business class to Europe Select, because ,simply, it's not business class, more like an "Economy plus" product, or as AF calls it "Tempo Challenge". The main problem here is that KL keeps selling it as a business class product.

Main point is that KL makes money and has one of the highest loadfactor around which is important in this business. More important than having a flashy product but with no customers (for example: MH has a daily KUL-AMS flight with a really nice F-class, but almost every day it's empty or with just 1 or 2 passengers and usually they are upgraded)

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
upgraded their WBC



Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
Just give a little more space in Y



Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
A world class product

A few months ago I read in a KL employee newspaper that it is not KL's goal to be the best airline around, or even to belong to the best around, but an airline to offer a decent value for money. IMO, they do. KL still has the name of being an expensive airline (and in some markets they are..) but in general KL has some great offers.

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
Gold and platinum travellers with real mileage accrual on all classes

Just after the introduction of Flying Blue, mileage accruel for the lowest fares was not possible. Since a couple of months all fares are eligable for mileage accruel. For the lowest "Take-off" fares (N and E) you only get 25% though. No FB mileage points are given on "airmiles" tickets (points that one can earn when shopping in certain retailstores in the Netherlands), FB-award tickets and interline discount or agent discount tickets.
 
globetrekker
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:54 am

One must remember that with Air France and KLM, the idea was to run two seperate airlines, with seperate products under one holding company (Air France-KLM) for now. That being said, there is no denying that KLM product improved since it merged with AF 2 years ago.

All fleet decisions for both airlines are made by AF-KL. This statement is from AF-KL:

Quote:
Due to changing market circumstances, Air France-KLM decided to extend phase two of KLM's fleet renewal program, which has started in April 2005 and is now anticipated to run until calendar year 2012. As a consequence, KLM will delay the phasing out of its MD-11 aircraft (which is the youngest aircraft type of the three that are part of the renewal program) from 2008 to 2012 and therefore defer capex requirements of in excess of EUR 1 billion.



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 35):
The fact is that KLM is in a far better shape since the last 2 years than it was before AF's take over, but some people simply don't wantto admit it.

Agree 100%

Quoting SK601 (Reply 38):
A few months ago I read in a KL employee newspaper that it is not KL's goal to be the best airline around, or even to belong to the best around, but an airline to offer a decent value for money. IMO, they do. KL still has the name of being an expensive airline (and in some markets they are..) but in general KL has some great offers.

 checkmark  True! When I joined KLM a few years back I learned from the very beginning that there aim was not to be the best, but to make money. Being a prestige carrier is a luxury KLM cannot afford... they just want to see cash. And judging by the numbers this approach works for the airline. Simple fact is that an airline just cannot satisfy every customer. Impossible.

Globe Trekker
The World Is A Book And Those Who Do Not Travel Read Only A Page
 
Grbld
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Qm001 (Reply 36):
IMO KL needs to spend some more cash upgrading their services to those of AF

It's no mystery: AF KL are positioning KLM as the cheaper brand. It was very clearly put in ATW's interview with Spinetta and Van Wijk: AF will be the prestige brand, KL will be the lower cost brand. This is reflected in AF's upgrade of their product and the presence of First Class on some types. KL will not upgrade their business class product to a higher standard than that's in the 777s and A330s right now. It's deliberate.
 
kl692
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 34):
The thing is, now that the merger is done, some people are going to take a while to warm up to the fact that AF owns KL.

I am tryin to understand this, if Kl and AF merge to become one company, how come people are saying Kl belongs to AF? Now if people were to say AF took over Kl then I understand. And will Kl homeland still be AMS or Holland have to get a new national carrie?
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JRadier
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Padster (Reply 14):
as it is cheaper to run one brand instead of two ...

looking at direct costs.... yes

But what you forget is that KLM is known by a lot of people around the world as a good carrier (and no, this is not your mark to start bitching about KL). Dumping this brand would cost a lot because people who fly KLM won't go to AF over night.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
Avianca
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 35):
Did you hear abour B777F ? There are now others Freightes available on the market, smaller than the B747F.
AF & KL Cargo departement are in process of full merging.
Combis are progresively eliminated from most of the fleets of the world. KLM will not be an exception.

yes I heard about the B777F ....

but you should be also heard that the B777F will be not aviable tomorrow, they will introduce earliest 2008, and you can be sure that KLM will not elimnate there realtiv big comby fleet from 1 day to another only becaue the AFGroup will receive 4 or 5 777F.
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FlySSC
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 43):
but you should be also heard that the B777F will be not aviable tomorrow, they will introduce earliest 2008, and you can be sure that KLM will not elimnate there realtiv big comby fleet from 1 day to another only becaue the AFGroup will receive 4 or 5 777F.

Nobody said they would do it in one day... But Converting a 744Combi into a B744 all PAX doesn't take that long.
AF still operates 7 B742F. When the order for the B777LRF were placed, President Spinetta declared that they will all be retired by 2009, replaced by converted B744 PAX from AF (F-GISA/SB next year), "probably KL", and maybe even second hand a/c.

Note also that the 2 Cargo departement of AF & KL are engaged into a full merger. Unlike the "PAX" departement, keeping the two brands seperately for the moment, there will be soon only 1 Cargo company named AF-KLM Cargo, with 1 fleet based at AMS and CDG.
The B777LRF will not join AF Cargo, or AFGroup, they will join AF-KLM Cargo.
 
Joost
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Kl692 (Reply 41):
I am tryin to understand this, if Kl and AF merge to become one company, how come people are saying Kl belongs to AF? Now if people were to say AF took over Kl then I understand.

There is no absolute difference between a takeover and a merger. You can argue it in different ways.

On one hand, it is a merger. It was not like AF made a bid on the shares to gain control, nor was it that KL needed AF to survive on the short term. The whole merger process was a process of cooperation. KLM itself wanted this merger. Now, the board of directors of the group has been composed of members of both boards and there is a common chairmanship by Spinetta and Van Wijk. Both companies operate as different entities, but in the board of KLM, a Frenchman joined; in the AF board, a Dutchman joined, to integrate fully.

But on the other hand, it is a takeover, by the simple fact that the former Air France stakeholders now own a considerably larger part of the shares than the former KLM stakeholders. IIRC, it's somewhere around 70/30. Therefore, the (former) AF stakeholders have more power in appointing the members of the board than the KL stakeholders. If they choose a very nationalistic Frech man as a replacement of Spinetta, than it will feel more like a takeover.

For now, the cooperation between Spinetta and Van Wijk has often been praised. Question marks are how their replacements will do it.

As for all other comments I read: their European business product might not be the best on the continent, but as long as they are selling loads of that seats despite the low level of comfort, shareholders can only be happy about that. In the end, the members of the board have to take their responsiblity towards the shareholders more than the travelers.

As KLM reported a load factor over 80% and good profits, I think the shareholders can only be happy.
 
JRadier
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 45):
For now, the cooperation between Spinetta and Van Wijk has often been praised.

And has won them several awards, most recently a awards from 'Aviation Week & Space Technology' in the category Commercial Air Transport for the succes they had in bringing AF and KL together

Source: KLM Wolkenridder Actueel 10 april 2006 (KLM's employee newsletter)
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
padster
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 42):
looking at direct costs.... yes

But what you forget is that KLM is known by a lot of people around the world as a good carrier (and no, this is not your mark to start bitching about KL). Dumping this brand would cost a lot because people who fly KLM won't go to AF over night.

which is my point .. they have some years now to blur the line between the two carriers so by the time it becomes one people will not know (or remember) the differance .

ps , I do not "bitch" about klm , infact I quite like them, at the moment i am sat in AMS waiting for my next flight with them....  Smile
 
Joost
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting Kl692 (Reply 41):
And will Kl homeland still be AMS or Holland have to get a new national carrie?

Well, I don't see why AF/KL would leave the Dutch market, where they have such a stronghold, to someone else. Although smaller than LHR or CDG, AMS is still a large O&D market as it's basically the only airport for the Netherland, so a very concentrated market. It's not a market for F-class passengers, but it surely does produce a lot of high-yielding business traffic.

For having a real 'national' carrier: here you should consider the slow process of the creation of the single European sky: here, a carrier does not belong to a country, but to the European area. The need (in bilateral agreements) for a national carrier slowly fades. More and more countries are making agreements with the EU to replace the bilateral contracts with all countries. Untill now, Ukraine, Morocco and Chile have signed. Australia and Russia are in negotiation. And today, Barosso said that a preliminary deal with the USA (of course an extremely important market) was to be expected in june.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 40):
It's no mystery: AF KL are positioning KLM as the cheaper brand. It was very clearly put in ATW's interview with Spinetta and Van Wijk: AF will be the prestige brand, KL will be the lower cost brand.

And when you want to market a brand like this, having to brands can be good. Like this, you can both attract the lower end and the higher end of the market without dilluting the premium brand.

They made the comparasion to the Accor hotel group themselves, that also has cheaper brands and premium brands, and really wants to keep all brands together. Or you can look in the car industry, where Toyota and Volkswagen both have decided that keeping different brand for premium/value-for-money products (Lexus/Toyota, Audi/Volkswagen) actually can be a viable business case.
 
kl692
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RE: What Is Wrong With KLM?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:59 am

thanks for clearing things up for me JOOST. you sure know your stuff. Thanks again
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