LordHowe
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Delay & Crew Change?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:14 pm

I know that different airlines have different rules concerning their crews working hours but anyway, I'd like to hear your professional views or civilized guesses on this matter.

For instance AYs BKK flight yesterday evening got a five hour delay. I do not know if the five hours finally came from changing the crew but I would like think so because what I do not believe is that the original crew could wait for the departure so long when they know that there is a ten hour flight ahead.

So how often do the flights get even more delayed because of the change of the whole crew? How soon can they get a new crew to the airport? How long can a crew wait before they will have to be replaced by another?

Best regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
tommybp251b
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:21 am

RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting LordHowe (Thread starter):
So how often do the flights get even more delayed because of the change of the whole crew? How soon can they get a new crew to the airport? How long can a crew wait before they will have to be replaced by another?

Hi LordHowe!
Thx for starting the topic! I was asking myself about the same and I wanted to start a similar topic.

If you don't mind I would like to ask some questions too. I would like to know more about those time rules. How long is a crew allowed to work. From which point counts the working time? When they enter the aircraft? when they check in at the airport? Lets ask some pilots. After which length of a flight, an airline has to put a second crew on the plane?

Lets say a year ago a BA 744 flying SIN-LHR had to land in TXL because the crew time was expired. How could that happen? Why does an airline start a flight in SIN when they know they can't be in LHR on time?
I read this story in AERO international.

Thx for answers!
Tom from Cologne
 
Icaro
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:33 pm

The duty time starts once you check at the airport. If the delay is scheduled the company would call us home to tell us the new checking time, if the plane goes tech once we are at the airport then our duty period has already started.

If we have a maximum activity or say 16 hours (it changes depending of the number of flights and time of check-in) and the flight has an scheduled duration of say 12 hours, then we are allowed to a maximum delay of 3 hours, because you have to add the hour we get early to the airport to the flight time. After that time a release crew will be called.

Hope it helps
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:49 pm

It's usually around the 14-16 hours, depending on the sign-in policy the airline applies, the crew rest facilities onboard, the day or night duties, the number of landings in one day for multi-stops ops...

When you read a Flight Operation Manual, many many different factors will apply to determine the maximum duty of a crew member !!!


FB.
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LordHowe
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Icaro (Reply 2):
a release crew will be called

So you always know that there's a possibility that you will be called? Do you?

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 3):
around the 14-16 hours

This can be with airlines whose crews can fly 12-14 hours but for example AYs cannot!

Regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
DrP
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:05 am

There are many many variables to decide how long a crew member can work - it is called a Flying Duty Period (FDP) - for instance - number of sectors, the amount of rest preceeding their FDP, the number of pilots onboard, crew rest areas, are they acclimatised to local time? etc etc the list is almost endless.

An FDP will start when a crew member checks in for their flight, and there will be a limit - say for example 12 hours - which is set. If, however, things go wrong (like a divert or problems with ATC slots, etc) the commander has the option to use 'discretion' - which basically means he can work beyond the 12 hours - up to a maximum of 3 hours extra (so 15 hrs total) provided he feels that the flight can be made safely and the crew won't be too tired in an emergency.

It's all very boring and very long winded, and every airline has their own set of rules - they are called Flight Time Limitations (FTL). If you want to have a look at what FTL's are based upon - check out the CAP 371 document from the CAA http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=22

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fxramper
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:13 am

The last major winter storm in MEM screwed FX ops up royally. Crews were waiting to take off and their FTL ran out, so we had loaded a/c waiting to blast off, but no crew to operate. We had limited number of standby crews, but FX launches 300 flights a night at the super-hub...it was a complete mess!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:02 am

In the United States, the FAA dictates these rules:

No crewmember can be scheduled to be on duty for over 14 hours

That number can be extended to 16 hours due to weather . . . but it can never start off scheduled more than 14 hours

No crewmember can be scheduled to fly more than 8 hours. Again, once in the air, this number can be extended with holds, etc. In other words, if a pilot hits 8 hrs of flight time over North Carolina at 36000 feet, the flight doesnt have to stop.

Minimum rest is 8 hours. But if the crew works a sixteen hour duty day and had a minimum rest overnight the night before, they are entitled to a longer, 'compensatory' rest period to commence within 24 hours of the reduced rest period.


Hope that helps out on the pilot side of things. Not sure about Flight Attendants though.

To my knowledge, their limits are less strict.

PJ
 
galleyhag
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:47 am

Cabin crew can work longer hours than the flight crew most of the time. As mentioned, if the airline knows of a delay early enough they will delay your report time, wether at home or downroute at a hotel. Then your duty time will be (for us) 90mins prior to the new STD. However, if they aren't aware of the delay and the crew have reported then your original duty start time stands. So if the delay knocks on and on, it's rapidly eating into the time the crew can now operate for. It's particularly important on a 2 flight crew operation on a long flight because as I said, they will go out of hours before we will. Anything over 15 hrs 45 mins gets questioned at my airline but I do 18 hour days quite frequently.

As for a whole new crew being called out, I believe it is CAA regs that every UK airline must have enough crew on standby to re-crew a flight if necessary. Again however, if you are downroute there won't be another crew (most of the time) out there too so it's a case of the original crew getting their legal minimum rest and then reporting afresh the next day. Your minimum rest is based on many factors such as how many time zones you have crossed, wether you are acclimatised, length of duty prior to this etc. It's a nightmare to work out so we usually leave it up to the pilots and just get our heads around the basics.
 
LordHowe
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting DrP (Reply 5):
Any questions, just ask

Thanks all!

Great information which make the picture much more clear, but I would still like someone to answer one of my original questions: " ... how often do the flights get even more delayed because of the change of the whole crew?"

The explanation is often "technical reasons" which leads passangers thoughts to that there's something wrong with the aircraft. Actually I understand now that also the change of crew can be "technical".

Thanks and regards,
LordHowe
Lord Howe Island - The Last Paradise
 
monkeyboi
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RE: Delay & Crew Change?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:33 am

Crew duty hours can also be extended if there is 'horizontal rest' available on the aircraft (ie bunks). The duty can be extended up to 50% of the time spent in horizontal rest up to a maximum of 3 hours extra duty. (ie 6 hours per crew member would have to be spent in the bunks).

If AY don't have crew bunks on their MD's their crew hours would be much more limited.