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N328KF
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Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:41 am

Brief fair use excerpt:
HUGE bills to tackle problems on some of Airbus's new projects persuaded BAE Systems to sell its 20% stake in the plane maker, industry experts believe.

Senior BAE executives have calculated that Airbus will have to find more than £5bn for research and development to solve design problems on the A350 twin-engined wide-bodied jet and extra spending on the new military A400 transporter.

Significantly, BAE's decision last week to pull out came on the day that Singapore Airlines, the world's second-biggest carrier, called for a total redesign of the A350 if it was to compete with its Boeing 787 rival.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=408177&in_page_id=2

[Edited 2006-04-09 19:06:30]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
AirbusCanada
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
Significantly, BAE's decision last week to pull out came on the day that Singapore Airlines, the world's second-biggest carrier, called for a total redesign of the A350 if it was to compete with its Boeing 787 rival.

SQ is the world's second biggest carrier!!!!!!
 
pavlin
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
that Singapore Airlines, the world's second-biggest carrier

By nimber of passengers I would be surprised I it would be on TOP 20
 
PM
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
a total redesign

I wish journalists wouldn't use, er, journalese. A "total" redesign? A total redesign?! Well, what would a partial redesign be? If SQ want a "total" redesign they want what?

Three Engines?
A biplane?
The engines mounted on top of the wings?
A plane made out of bamboo?

SQ are suggesting that Airbus would be doing themselves (and the airlines) a favour if they made the fuselage wider. That's a "total" redesign?

Sigh...
 
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N328KF
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:24 am

I think your points are all valid, but they are not really the reason I think the article is significant. I was focusing on the fact that the investment was why BAE was selling out, not the smaller detail of SQ's comments.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
TIA
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:41 am

But why is BAE mentioning the A400 now? BAE knew what the R&D expenses for this plane were, and it wasn't something that Airbus decided to build suddenly, as it happened with the A350.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:46 am

So, the rest of the article has to be accurate, even though what we can actually check is inaccurate. This is from the same stable that has predicted a UK house price crash for the last six years.

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
industry experts believe

Industry experts my arse.

Quoting N328KF (Thread starter):
Significantly, BAE's decision last week to pull out came on the day that Singapore Airlines, the world's second-biggest carrier, called for a total redesign of the A350 if it was to compete with its Boeing 787 rival.

The bae deal has been rumoured for months.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 2):

By nimber of passengers I would be surprised I it would be on TOP 20

SQ are the 2nd biggest carrier in the world by market cap/market valuation after WN.... Smile

cheers.
"Up the Irons!"
 
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mariner
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:23 am

I think this article puts it into much better perspective.

Even if British work on the A380 is "safe" and perhaps the A350, it is possible that any work on the A320 replacement will go elsewhere:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-2124890,00.html

Which will mean the end of British manufacturing's long association with civil aviation.

As trhe article says: Bye-bye Airbus. And also: Bye-bye Handley Page and Vickers and deHavilland and Avro.....

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jacobin777
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
I think this article puts it into much better perspective.

Even if British work on the A380 is "safe" and perhaps the A350, it is possible that any work on the A320 replacement will go elsewhere:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-2124890,00.html

Which will mean the end of British manufacturing's long association with civil aviation.

As trhe article says: Bye-bye Airbus. And also: Bye-bye Handley Page and Vickers and deHavilland and Avro.....

mariner

I just finished reading that article about a minute ago and I was going to link it here..but I guess you pipped me to the post.... Smile
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Ruscoe
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
Which will mean the end of British manufacturing's long association with civil aviation

No. You watch them get into bed with Boeing.

Ruscoe
 
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mariner
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 10):
No. You watch them get into bed with Boeing.

On the defense side? Yes. They may even do some civil aviation work, as a sub contractor.

But I seriously doubt they will ever be an owner, or part owner. If nothing else, too many defense secrets would then become available to a foreign entity/govenrment.

As the article says:

(i) "The move signals the end of direct British ownership of the manufacture of civil aircraft."

(ii) "....for BAE, there was no shortage of potential smaller acquisitions, describing the American defence market as a “target-rich environment”."

note: "defense market".

mariner
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Which will mean the end of British manufacturing's long association with civil aviation.

They're making a business decision. Do you think they should hang on for sentimental reasons?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
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mariner
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 12):
They're making a business decision. Do you think they should hang on for sentimental reasons?

Huh? I am simply commenting on a fact of history.

And possible reasons for the potential loss of British jobs.

mariner
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flydreamliner
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 11):
Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 10):
No. You watch them get into bed with Boeing.

On the defense side? Yes. They may even do some civil aviation work, as a sub contractor.

But I seriously doubt they will ever be an owner, or part owner. If nothing else, too many defense secrets would then become available to a foreign entity/govenrment.

I could see them investing in Boeing as part of a new strategic partnership. As for the civil, I don't know, so long as they don't break any confidentiality stuff with A, they could become one of Boeing's many suppliers.
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NYC777
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 10):
No. You watch them get into bed with Boeing.

I think you're spot on. BAE will link up with Boeing on some deense projects and this cooperation will expand to civil aviation soon enough. I don't think this will end British involvement in civil aviaton.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 10):
No. You watch them get into bed with Boeing.

um, Ruscoe, you were quoting me quoting Mariner, hence I didn't make that comment..

my comment was...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
I just finished reading that article about a minute ago and I was going to link it here..but I guess you pipped me to the post....
"Up the Irons!"
 
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:25 pm

Mariner, I feel at least as sentimental as you about the 'old' British aircraft industry (especially De Havilland). But I don't think that a 20% stake in Airbus, without any representation on the EADS Board, was at all significant in terms of preserving that tradition.

I think Mike Turner is to be congratulated on putting the interests of his shareholders first. And it will have cost him. He won't be invited to many dinner parties at No. 10 for quite a while, and he won't need to bother with checking the 2007 New Year's Honours List; his name won't be on it!

[Edited 2006-04-10 05:30:26]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
elvis777
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:38 pm

Howdy guys,

I too will miss their contribution. I remember reading as a child the "Shepherd' by Forsyth and I could picture the nifty looking lines of the vampire as it flew through the clouds and in the darkness.

Also, I must admit that the lightning is a tough looking bird!

Ok., so if Bae sells thei 20 who will build the wings? In other words I keep thinking that the wings are the most difficult part to design and it requires a a great deal of corporate knowledge. Will Bae sell that division to EADS? Or am I mistaken and is that already owned by them?

Peace

Elvis777
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777fan
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:50 pm

Amazing how Boeing's name got dragged into this! IMO, SQ's request to widen the A350 fuselage is a pretty significant one. It's not like you can just recast a wider metal tube!


Couple of questions:

- How badly will the BAe stock sale affect Airbus' cash on hand
- What other parts/components will be effected and who are the potential suitors to step in?
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:53 pm

What a curious post. I am not advocating that BAE maintain its stake in Airbus.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
But I don't think that a 20% stake in Airbus, without any representation on the EADS Board, was at all significant in terms of preserving that tradition.

My point was simply that it was all the Poms had. What else is there?

That the headline "Bye bye, Airbus" means more than simply "Bye bye, Airbus".

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Mariner, I feel at least as sentimental as you about the 'old' British aircraft industry

Why is it "sentimental" to note the possible passing of a tradition? One would as equally announce the arrival of the new.

It is what it is, and it is no more than that. But it is also no less.

mariner
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AviationAddict
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:05 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 3):
I wish journalists wouldn't use, er, journalese. A "total" redesign? A total redesign?! Well, what would a partial redesign be? If SQ want a "total" redesign they want what?

Being a journalism major I'd have to say that wasn't even "journalese", it was just plain poor journalism. One of the first things they teach you when you start a journalism career is minimalism; make your point in the least amount of words and leave out any superfluous words. A redesign is a redesign, period, no partial or total about it.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:16 pm

Sorry Jacobin777.

At least a couple of legendary names live on in Hawker deHavilland, which is an Australian based company formed by the merger of CAC (Commonwealth Aircraft corporation), GAF (Govt Aircraft Factories) and deHavilland Australia.
It is now wholly owned by Boeing, but also does work for Airbus amongst others.

Ruscoe
 
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:22 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 18):
I could picture the nifty looking lines of the vampire as it flew through the clouds and in the darkness.

Also, I must admit that the lightning is a tough looking bird!

Elvis777, there were a lot of promising British designs in the early postwar years. Arguably, the man who finally set the British aircraft industry on its path of decline was a Defence Minister named Duncan Sandys. He'd had some involvement with countering the V2 rocket in WW2 and (vindicating the saying that 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing') he formed the opinion that manned aircraft were no longer needed. So he proceeded to withdraw all government support for manned aircraft research, and put it into ICBM development instead:-

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~dav4is/people/SAND1312.htm

Never mind - BAE still has the Harrier, which remains a 'winner'. I believe that the USMC remains as happy as the RAF to have them around.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cpairDC10
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:14 pm

Dont BAe want a piece of the JSF programm.....?? if im correct in thinking this is Boeings doing.....I think we have to read between the lines here......
 
PM
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 24):
Dont BAe want a piece of the JSF programm.....??

I think they already have a pretty substantial piece, don't they? I don't see the 20% Airbus stake as being linked to JSF.
 
cpairDC10
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:55 pm

If boeing say that they get no JSF if they are in the Airbus group.......
 
vv701
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 5):
But why is BAE mentioning the A400 now? BAE knew what the R&D expenses for this plane were

BAE are not mentioning the A400M as a reason for selling out. It is 'industry experts' who have raised this issue. Some of us do not have a high regard for them:

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 6):
Industry experts my arse.

We have to agree or disagree with them as we see it ourselves.

What is clear is that within seven days BAE announced plans to divest themselves of 20 per of Airbus and that both Daimler Benz and Lagardere announced the sale of 7.5 per cent of EADS. These were all investments. Clever investors get out at or near the top of a market (and last year's aircraft orders were a record for both Airbus and Boeing). Not so clever investors get their timing totally wrong. Each of us - and, no doubt, the 'industry experts' - will decide whether we think BAE, D-B and L are clever or not so clever.

It should also be remembered that Airbus had previously threatened BAE that if it did not cough up around £400M for R&D on the wing of the A350 the work would go to China. We have already seen Airbus respond to Boeing's 787 by going for the A350 when it was still incurring huge R&D costs on the A380 and A400M. And I note that the manufacture of the 787 is going to be almost a global project. So it is not unreasonable to assume that Airbus has already or is currently at least looking at the possibility of global manufacture (assuming it does not have its head in the sand).

With no influence on the EADS decision making process it is possible - repeat, possible - that seeing the probability of having to make further huge investments in a market that has possibly - repeat, possibly - peaked and with the possibility - repeat possibility - of Chinese manufacture to reduce costs, BAE decided to opt out.

BAE, I believe, will spend at least some of the money they get for Airbus on improving their position as the Pentagon's sixth largest supplier. This is a market where technology is totally dominant and low cost manufacture is not a so significant consideration. Further by having cut its links to Airbus and, through them, potentially to China, I believe BAE have enhanced their prospects of overcoming the technology transfer issues that surround the JSF project where the UK is a junior partner with the US.
 
PM
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 26):
If boeing say that they get no JSF if they are in the Airbus group.......

Forgive me but I just can't see it.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 14):
As for the civil, I don't know, so long as they don't break any confidentiality stuff with A, they could become one of Boeing's many suppliers.

BAE only recently sold their Aerostructures business that did the civilian aerostructures to Spirit Aerostructures. IIRC the only civilian aircraft bits they have now are the legacy bits for the RJ, Jetstream etc

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
But I don't think that a 20% stake in Airbus, without any representation on the EADS Board, was at all significant in terms of preserving that tradition.

BAE hasn't got anyone on the EADS board. Why would a competitor have someone on the board of their competitor?
It still amazes me how people on here still manage to mix up BAE, EADS and Airbus and what the dependancies are.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting CPairDC10 (Reply 24):
Dont BAe want a piece of the JSF programm.....?? if im correct in thinking this is Boeings doing.....I think we have to read between the lines here......

Boeing is not the JSF lead manufacturer, Lockheed is.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 27):

It should also be remembered that Airbus had previously threatened BAE that if it did not cough up around £400M for R&D on the wing of the A350 the work would go to China.

There was also this from last year:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai.../money/2005/09/12/ixfrontcity.html

The British subsidiary of European planemaker Airbus, which makes the wings for the company's A380 double-decker jumbo jet, nose-dived further into the red last year with losses of £186m.

The poor showing compares with the booming profits made by its Toulouse-based parent company, which over the same period made earnings before interest and tax of €1.92billion (£1.3billion).

RE: Airbus UK In The Red (by Breiz Sep 14 2005 in Civil Aviation)

In the thread that discusses it there is a bit of confusion of the status regarding the status of Airbus UK? Is it owned buy Airbus, who is owned by BAE and EADS, or is it owned by BAE?

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 29):

BAE hasn't got anyone on the EADS board. Why would a competitor have someone on the board of their competitor?

Only if you owned a stake, which BAE doesn't. Which I suggest is a source of friction, if EADS under control of the Germans, French, and Spanish uses its dominant position to push the BAE and the UK around.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
art
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I think Mike Turner is to be congratulated on putting the interests of his shareholders first. And it will have cost him. He won't be invited to many dinner parties at No. 10 for quite a while, and he won't need to bother with checking the 2007 New Year's Honours List; his name won't be on it!

What, no chance of becoming Lord Mike on January 1st? That's a bit of a sacrifice to make. However I think he may be able to console himself with the knowledge that the board will probably propose a massive bonus for him (and for themselves, of course) at the next shareholder meeting.

What would he do with the money? Donate some of it to the Labour Party (party in government in Britain at the moment, currently accused of giving honours - Lord, Sir etc to large financial contributors) and lo and behold on 1st January the problem might have been resolved for Sir Mike/Lord Mike. Wink*

*Thought I had better add a smiley to show I didn't really mean any of what I said about the Labour Party. Saves their lawyers a trip round to see me with a writ for defamation!
 
GDB
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:18 am

BAE want to exit the commerical market, full stop.

That is what this is all about.

It's not finalised yet, and while it's unlikely he will, the Trade Secretary Alan Johnson, could veto it.

I for one think he should.
Even if I don't the actual presence of Airbus UK is under threat in at least the medium term.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 23):
Never mind - BAE still has the Harrier, which remains a 'winner'

And which has just been retired from service early by the Royal Navy!
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
GDB
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:19 am

Not the Harrier GR.7/9's though.

The evergreen BAE Hawk still sells, much updated, the most successful all British military aircraft post war, by a margin.
Including being sold, in the shape of the T-45 version, to the US.

Typhoon has a solid customer base already, a multi national aircraft based on a BAe design.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Report: A350 & A400M Reason For BAE Airbus Sale

Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:19 am

Funny these 'experts' blame the 350 and A400M, when the Nimrod 2000 is still to enter service. It's called Nimrod 2000 for a reason by the way.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers

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