BigJimFX
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A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:14 pm

I was going through the archives and I noticed that AA is thinking about waiting till the 737-NG comes out to replace the MD-80. Is having one type aircraft/manufacturer really that much of a money saver? I've been looking at the numbers and it would seem that an A320 would be a good MD-80 replacement. I don't know, maybe AA is having reservations from the A-300 problems, but compare these numbers and let me know what you think

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/md-80/product.html
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/a320/a320/specifications.html
I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:34 pm

My thoughts:

The A-320 would be a great MD-80 replacement as would the 737NG or Y1.

The A-300 was the first and last Airbus product AA has ever/will ever buy.

An A-320 in the AA livery wouldn't look good.......maybe it's just me, but I think the 737-800 looks better in AA colors than the A-320 would.

Now, my final though which I'll probably be  flamed  over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
Molykote
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):
Now, my final though which I'll probably be over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

As I don't see the people you describe with your red neck stereotype being the same as those placing aircraft orders, I can only assume that you are talking about paying customers. I highly doubt that most passengers consciously appreciate any of the real differences between the aircraft types. I especially doubt that these passengers take the care to plan bookings around equipment routings.

If the French can appreciate a 777, I don't see why a Texan couldn't appreciate a narrowbus.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
AviationAddict
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):

The A-300 was the first and last Airbus product AA has ever/will ever buy.



I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's the last Airbus product AA will ever buy. We can't be sure what the company will do 20 years down the road when it'll most likely be under new management and the bad A300 memories are gone. But I'm sure we won't see anymore Airbuses flying for AA anytime soon.

Also, even if the A320 is a more economical choice, I think you'd see AA go for the 738 first. But I don't think we'll see AA buy anymore planes for a long time because the company just doesn't have the money now. The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

[Edited 2006-04-10 07:54:28]

[Edited 2006-04-10 07:54:48]
 
seanp11
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:55 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 2):
Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):
Now, my final though which I'll probably be over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

As I don't see the people you describe with your red neck stereotype being the same as those placing aircraft orders, I can only assume that you are talking about paying customers. I highly doubt that most passengers consciously appreciate any of the real differences between the aircraft types. I especially doubt that these passengers take the care to plan bookings around equipment routings.

methinks it was a joke  Wink
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 2):
you describe with your red neck stereotype

Ugh, I knew this was coming!!! Sir it's a joke........you cannot possibly believe that I was speaking what I felt was the truth of the matter!! You would be right though, people would probably not give a damn if they were flying Airbus or Boeing.

What I do believe to be the truth of the matter though, is, AA is not the type of airline to be first in line for an Airbus product. As I said, I think their A-300's were probably the first and last Airbus that they'll ever buy. While the A-320 may be a decent replacement for the MD-80, AA is going to buy either 737NG or Y1.

Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 4):
methinks it was a joke

Thank you!!! It wasn't only me then!!!

Max

[Edited 2006-04-10 08:00:46]
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

Probably longer than that. Their youngest ones are only like 5 years old plus/minus a few. They have a good few thousand cycles left on em!!

Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
AviationAddict
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 7):
Probably longer than that. Their youngest ones are only like 5 years old plus/minus a few. They have a good few thousand cycles left on em!!

Very few are that young though. Most are probabaly around 10 or 12. I believe the average age is somewhere around 14 or 15 years old.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 8):
Very few are that young though. Most are probabaly around 10 or 12. I believe the average age is somewhere around 14 or 15 years old.

NO!!! Don't say that!!! I love the MD-80, it's too soon for it to be retired!!! Man, I'd give a lot if I could be a Mad Dog driver one day!! If the economy of the industry comes back around one of these days maybe I'll eventually be able to........

Speaking of "Mad Dog", does anyone know how that nickname came to be??

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
qqflyboy
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:12 pm

Never say never... we may very well be surprised in the not so distant future!
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
Joost
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:44 pm

Why would AA order a A320 to replace MD-80s? The A320 and the 737-800 are very similar airplanes, on the aspects of capacity, range, costs, etc. Both have their pro's and cons, but they are defenitely in the same segment and both would always be an option for (almost) any narrowbody operator.

But... AA already operates 77 737-800s! Why would they introduce another aircraft type?
 
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LTU932
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 5):
While the A-320 may be a decent replacement for the MD-80, AA is going to buy either 737NG or Y1.

Speaking of 737NGs, how about AA ordering a few 737-900ER, along with perhaps some 73Gs? I don't know exactly the figures on thr 737 and MD-80 seat arrangement, but a 737-700A could provide them the uplift they'd need for the sectors flown by the MD-80s, while the 737-900ER could give them the edge capacity and range wise for flights which are too small for the 757 and A300.

AA might need some newer airframes in the short term, since some of those MD-80s are getting pretty old. There were also proposals for increasing the lives of those MD-80s through a re-engining programme, but I see this as a very unlikely possibility, since the likely candiates for re-engining would be probably much less than their current fleet, taking into account the amount of cycles those aircraft may have.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:45 am

Excuse me while I interject a few facts here on American's fleet. The MD-80s were ordered to replace the 727-100 fleet. 20 MD-80s were initially ordered, then 13 more, then 67 more after that. The oldest 33 MD-80s are now 20+ yrs old. The youngest MD-80s, from the TWA buyout, are a mere 7 yrs old, including the last MD-80 assembled. AA has on its MD-80 fleet roster, whether in or storage, 362 airframes. I can assure anyone here that the "Mad Dog" will still be flying for AA 10 yrs from now.
Now the 737-800s were ordered to replace AA's 727-200 fleet. 75 airframes were intially ordered, then 25 more, and 24 more after that. Now 77 738s are in service with AA, with 47 more still outstanding. These defered orders will more than likely start arriving in 2010, to replace some of the oldest MD-80s at that time.
The A300s will be gone in 4-6 years, to be replace by 763s or the 787, which AA will need roughly 35 airframes.
The 757s are staying put for a long while, while they are looking for roughly 20 2nd-tier RR-powered 752s.
The 777 fleet will be 47 ships strong at the end of the year, with 7 more on the books, which may or may not be built. These may be converted to the 787 order later in the decade.
So that's the outlook for American's fleet in the next few years. As a poster said before, AA doesn't have the capital right now to do any major fleet changes. And they're making do with what they have now. American is the ONLY legacy carrier left in the USA not to see a bankrupty court.
That alone speak volumes. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
dutchjet
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:03 am

To answer your general question: Yes, the A320 is a good MD80 replacement, many airlines worldwide have purchased A32X aircraft to replace their MD80 fleets. The 737NG is also a good MD80 replacement - the 73G and 738 would each be considered. Considering that AA already flies the 738, and considering that AA has an unofficial deal with Boeing concerning Boeing being AA's sole supplier for aircraft with more than 120 seats, and considering that the relationship between AA and Airbus has been difficult, and worsened after the JFK crash in 2001, I would think that AA would order Boeing jets to replace its MD80 fleet in the future.

AA has an enourmous MD80 fleet that will take decades to replace - I think that it was always the plan for AA to fly the 737NG in various sizes - and a mix of 73G/738 aircraft would be a good MD80 replacement. The choice between the 73G and 738, or a mix of various members of the 737NG family would come down to how AA viewed the economics of each variant in relation to AA's operations.

The big question is whether AA will place large orders for 737NG later in the decade, or will AA wait for Boeing's successor to the 737NG? It all depends on timing, when Boeing announces the new aircraft, and AA's financial position in the coming years.
 
commavia
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting BigJimFX (Thread starter):
Is having one type aircraft/manufacturer really that much of a money saver?

It is if that one manufacturer rewards an airline with huge price discounts for its loyalty, which is the deal AA and Boeing have worked out.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's the last Airbus product AA will ever buy.

I would. AA doesn't like Airbus, and the feeling is mutual. AA is happy with Boeing products, and I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

Try 15-20, at least. Even if AA were to replace every single MD80 currently in flight on a one-for-one basis with a 737, A320, or 737NG replacement, and took a new delivery from Boeing every single weekly continuously, it would take more than six years to replace all of AA's MD80s. Since AA is probably at least 5 years away from even making an MD80 replacement decision, and since it is somewhat unrealistic that Boeing could deliver a new plane to AA every single week for six years straight, I think the MD80s will be flying around in shiny silver for at least another decade or two.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
The big question is whether AA will place large orders for 737NG later in the decade, or will AA wait for Boeing's successor to the 737NG? It all depends on timing, when Boeing announces the new aircraft, and AA's financial position in the coming years.

You hit the nail on the head. It is all going to come down to timing. If AA feels that it is strong enough financially to order new planes, and Boeing simoultaneously is ready to offer a 737NG replacement, than AA may just go for it. I don't think this scenario is out of the question at all. AA has already deferred the remaining 738 orders until 2013-2016. By then, seven years from now, Boeing will likely be much further along in developing and/or selling the Y1 product to customers.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Try 15-20, at least.

Well, not 'at least', but this, in itself, is probably a realistic estimate. The youngest AA MD-80 is what......5 years old?? I think someone answered it above there somewhere. Anyhow, 20 years from now, those planes that are of now, very young, will be 25 years old. I suppose that wouldn't be the first time a McDonnell Douglas is used that long (NWA DC-9's....  Smile), but I'd think it unlikely that they keep their entire fleet that long without at least replacing a good chunk of the older half of the fleet with 738's or 73G's.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
AA has already deferred the remaining 738 orders until 2013-2016. By then, seven years from now, Boeing will likely be much further along in developing and/or selling the Y1 product to customers.

I hope, and I don't think it's that far removed from being the actual case, that AA is the launch customer for Y1. Also, is it just me or does anyone else think it would be really cool if Boeing renamed Y1 as the 737-1000??? Would it not be perfect that they end 737NG on -900 (or -900ER....) and begin.....what are they up to now, 4th gen??.....anyhow, and begin the 4th gen on the -1000 model designation!! Maybe it's just me but I think that would just be pretty cool!!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
how about AA ordering a few 737-900ER

I personally think that would be great!! As far as AA following suit, I don't think it's very likely. I think it'd look great in AA colors though, esp. with the additional exit aft of the wings.....it'd give it more of a 757 appearance.
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
commavia
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 16):
I hope, and I don't think it's that far removed from being the actual case, that AA is the launch customer for Y1.

The timing might work out, but AA really doesn't like launching airplanes anymore. The last brand new plane AA launched was the DC-10, and that was back in 1971. AA doesn't like being the first to jump in and commit millions to something unsure, and I doubt that policy has gone away considering how fiscally conservative AA's management has been of late. AA would rather watch another airline sink millions into a new plane, let them and the manufacturer work out the kinks, and then pay less money for a better, more advanced, more capable version.
 
TomFoolery
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:57 am

One of the factors which might pose a threat to the continued use of the MD 80 fleet would be NOISE. Noise and rising costs of operation is what ran the 727's out of town. The MD 80's, at least for the forseeable future are still within the prevailing noise requirements, as are the NW DC9's. The 80's are also rather economical because of the CASM, while not better then A318/19/20/21 or 73x of today, they are still very good at what they do. They are work horses.
I'm not sure how many (if not all) AA own currently, but that could also be a factor, just like NWA. Lets just see who keeps their twin jet T tails the longest!
What did US replace theirs with? CRJ's and ERJ's with a few Airbuses thrown in for the unions.
As for the question at hand, I think the AA brand and composite laden aircraft dont make for a good mix. Look at some of the older A300 pics. Shiny Aluminum, Dull gray composite section, and some more shiny silver. Looks strange.
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
flydreamliner
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:05 am

If gas stays as pricy as it has been, AA will start looking to speed up MD-80 replacement. If it drops down, I'd bet they'd keep the MD's flying for a solid 10+ years at least.

As for A320, they've already made their pick, they bought 80 737-800s, and options for more on the table. I'm sure they'll buy more.

AA, like DL and CO had signed exclusivity agreements with Boeing in the 90s. These bound AA, DL, and CO to buy Boeing jets, as opposed to a competitors, in exchange for better pricing and more favorable terms. When Boeing and McD merged, the EU made them void these, but all 3 airlines have held true to these exclusivity promises in gentlemen's agreements, and I'll assume Boeing has held up their end as well.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
sllevin
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
and since it is somewhat unrealistic that Boeing could deliver a new plane to AA every single week for six years straight

While I agree that the MD-80's are going to be around a while -- simply because there's no market to sell them into, and just parking them would represent a loss that overwhelm any advantages of the 737/A320/etc etc -- I don't think that Boeing adding 4 deliveries a month to the 737 line would be a big issue (they've recently delivered 11 and 12 airplanes a month), especially with a long term commitment. I don't know the numbers for Airbus, but I suspect they'd also have no issues delivering.

"Salivating at the opportunity" would better describe their hopes on the matter  Smile

Steve
 
commavia
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 20):
I don't think that Boeing adding 4 deliveries a month to the 737 line would be a big issue (they've recently delivered 11 and 12 airplanes a month), especially with a long term commitment

I agree, Boeing adding four deliveries per month to the 737 line would not be too challenging, but if we are working off the premise that AA would order the new Y1, a new aircraft that would hypothetically just being getting off the ground around the time AA starts taking deliveries, Boeing would likely have a hard time getting a new plane off the line once per week, just for AA, to say nothing of deliveries for other customers.

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 20):
"Salivating at the opportunity" would better describe their hopes on the matter

No question about that. AA alone would order enough of any prospective MD80 replacement (737NG or Y1) to basically keep the line moving for at least five years, probably closer to a decade or more.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
AA alone would order enough of any prospective MD80 replacement (737NG or Y1) to basically keep the line moving for at least five years, probably closer to a decade or more.

At the rate of 1 aircraft per week, which has already been pointed out as being a very agressive rate, it would take between 6 and 7 years for the entire AA MD-80 fleet to be replaced.

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
sllevin
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Boeing would likely have a hard time getting a new plane off the line once per week, just for AA, to say nothing of deliveries for other customers.

While the first few months might be slow, I can't believe that Boeing would not have a 6 month target to be able to deliver at least as many Y1's as 737's -- quite honestly, they HAVE to be able to do that. While designing planes is tough, building them is a well understood process.

Steve
 
ikramerica
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
You hit the nail on the head. It is all going to come down to timing.

Yes, and no. Yes, it's about timing, but no, it isn't going to change the answer.

The answer is simple.

The AA MD80s will fly until they are eventually replaced by Y1. If AA decides some of the oldest MD80s need replacing sooner, they will accelerate delivery of the deferred 738s they would need to accomplish this. But there will be no new orders for any current Boeing or Airbus models. No 767s, no 777s, no 737s, no 330s or 320s.

AA will be a launch customer for the Y1 along with WN. Mark my words. The plane will be designed with both AA and WN as team members (kind of ironic, but that will be true). CO will also be a strong member of that team. Between the three, they will account for 600 orders and options. That's to start.

At the time AA orders Y1 (2007 or 8, when launched), they will also order 787s. They don't have a need to order the 787 before that, as they still have 777s they can take and their 767 fleet is not going anywhere. 787 slots are not full from 2011, when AA would want to start taking them to replace the oldest 767s and A300s.

In other words, there is no time crunch for AA and no action need be taken before Y1 launched. They have enough current airframes on order (738, 777) to meet any growth/replacement needs through 2010.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:40 pm

Wow I just had the most bizarre revelation about the AA fleet!! You guys know how AA used to name (not sure if they still do) their narrowbody aircraft "Luxury Jet" and their widebody aircraft "Luxury Liner". Well, if they order the 787, they'll have the "Dreamliner", and if they're into marketing pitches at all, they could call their Y1's the "Dreamjet"!!

Random thought for the day!!

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
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TS-IOR
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:56 pm

Numerous airlines shifted from MD-80s to A32S, Nouvelair, Aero-Lloyd (defunct), Airtours Mytravel, Spanair, Alitalia...
Next flight TUN-YUL Tunisair A330-243.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 26):
Numerous airlines shifted from MD-80s to A32S

Yea but AA already has the 738 and they aren't the best of friends with Airbus....

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
ikramerica
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 27):
Yea but AA already has the 738 and they aren't the best of friends with Airbus....

I think he was responding to the thread title, which omits AA from it. The title asks if it's a good replacement, but the question is if it's good for AA. Not exactly the same question.

The answer to the thread title is yes, the 319 is a good replacement for MD80s in most cases. So is the 73G.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Mudboy
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:11 am

Am I the only one who hates the fact that all new narrow-body airliners have gone to 3-3 seating. I enjoy flying on MD80s, 90s, DC9s, and B717s, due to the option of sitting on the 2 side when flying with my wife or a friend without having a stranger seated next to us. I think it is sad that these types will be replaced before long. Also, I won't fly on an airline that only has 737s, A320s, 319s, or 318s for that very reason. Just my preference though.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 22):
At the rate of 1 aircraft per week, which has already been pointed out as being a very agressive rate, it would take between 6 and 7 years for the entire AA MD-80 fleet to be replaced.

Bear in mind that about the same time, WN is going to be placing an order of roughly the same size. Smaller orders from numerous other carriers are also to be expected. Boeing production will be awful busy.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 29):
Also, I won't fly on an airline that only has 737s, A320s, 319s, or 318s for that very reason. Just my preference though.

I also like the 3-2 seating a lot. DC-9/MD-80/90 717s are some of my favorite to ride on assuming I'm ahead of the wings) for that reason. To be fair though, if you're stuck on the 3 side, the 3 seats in DC9/MD80 are worse than on 737 or A320.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
BoomBoom
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 9):
Speaking of "Mad Dog", does anyone know how that nickname came to be??

I don't know, I remember in college we called Mogan David wine Mad Dog.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
BigJimFX
Topic Author
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 29):
Am I the only one who hates the fact that all new narrow-body airliners have gone to 3-3 seating. I enjoy flying on MD80s, 90s, DC9s, and B717s, due to the option of sitting on the 2 side when flying with my wife or a friend without having a stranger seated next to us. I think it is sad that these types will be replaced before long. Also, I won't fly on an airline that only has 737s, A320s, 319s, or 318s for that very reason. Just my preference though

Ya know... In all honesty, I swore of MD-80's because of some of the things I've seen go wrong with them. All though in retrospect it may be due to the fact that I do see A LOT of them... But you make a very valid point. I am so much more comfotable when I can select two seats for me and my lovely, or three to stretch out on a long flight. 3-3 blows and the only thing close to 2-3 is 2-2 on a E170 or CRJ, or 1-2 on an E135;145.
I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting BigJimFX (Reply 32):
in retrospect it may be due to the fact that I do see A LOT of them...

I subscribe to this way of thinking about them also!! I used to get SOOOO tired of riding on them when I was a kid.......but now I love to ride the MD-80!! My mom works for AA so I get free passes, and AA only uses the MD-80 out of COS here, so I love it when I take weekend trips to wherever!! I'm always guaranteed at least two legs on the good old' Mad Dog!!

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 30):
Bear in mind that about the same time, WN is going to be placing an order of roughly the same size. Smaller orders from numerous other carriers are also to be expected. Boeing production will be awful busy.

Yea, you ain't kidding. If 787 orders pick up some steam, especially if it performs well in flight testing, Boeing is going to have massive orders for the 787 and Y1 (which I still hope will be called the 737-1000!!) so the Boeing line is going to be busy as hell like you said!!

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
The 737NG is also a good MD80 replacement - the 73G and 738 would each be considered.

Well, the 738 is more the size of the MD80, but a mix leaning toward more 738s would bring you to the average capacity of the MD80. Still, it would be more likely that we see a lean toward more capacity, given the growth in the industry

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
It is if that one manufacturer rewards an airline with huge price discounts for its loyalty, which is the deal AA and Boeing have worked out.

Yep, similar to Southwest, Ryanair, easyJet and others who have ordered from both makers. The only ones who have kind of been left out of this are CO because they are still saddled with massive lease rates and a lack of credit from their 1990s bankruptcy filing. Still, their committment has made Boeing willing to lend a helping hand

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
No question about that. AA alone would order enough of any prospective MD80 replacement (737NG or Y1) to basically keep the line moving for at least five years, probably closer to a decade or more.

Easily. AA and WN have two very large fleets that will really be butting up against the end of their life when Y1 comes out. Most people seem to miss that WN is flying 22 year old aircraft along side aircraft that are being delivered monthly. While you will have some of those older 733s replaced by 73Gs, WN is going to be probably still flying 100 or more 733s when Y1 takes the skies. I can see that being their replacement for both the 733s and 735s (remember, Boeing is making a 100 seater version) and AA's MD80 replacement as well as a long awaited 100 seater (if Ejets don't enter the fleet first)
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 30):
I also like the 3-2 seating a lot. DC-9/MD-80/90 717s are some of my favorite to ride on assuming I'm ahead of the wings) for that reason. To be fair though, if you're stuck on the 3 side, the 3 seats in DC9/MD80 are worse than on 737 or A320.

The only two times I took DC9s was when I was 9 years old and went to MCO from PIT. I was in 7 or 8F for both flights. I guess I was small enough to not really mind the seat pitch and width that much, but I do remember the plane being rather loud. I remember going back to use the lav which was right next to those engines...

Even though they were loud, I liked the DC9/MD80. I really liked the 727 even though I never flew on one... I think that those planes with the T-tail. Those planes were really neat. They were loud but I liked them that way...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
MaxQ2351
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:41 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 35):
I really liked the 727 even though I never flew on one...

WHAT?!?!?!  Wow! That's too bad....seriously!! I flew on a bunch of them when I was young......too young to care about the significance of actually flying on them though, so I don't remember a lot about them, which I'm kicking myself over now.....

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Well, the 738 is more the size of the MD80, but a mix leaning toward more 738s would bring you to the average capacity of the MD80. Still, it would be more likely that we see a lean toward more capacity, given the growth in the industry

I hope this is the case because AA might go for the 739ER then!!  crossfingers 

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
Mudboy
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 35):
The only two times I took DC9s was when I was 9 years old and went to MCO from PIT

Was that last year on NWA? Sorry, I just couldn't resist!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 37):
Was that last year on NWA? Sorry, I just couldn't resist!

I'm sorry... Am I supposed to laugh at that...  Smile
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
kl662
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:39 pm

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 25):
Wow I just had the most bizarre revelation about the AA fleet!! You guys know how AA used to name (not sure if they still do) their narrowbody aircraft "Luxury Jet" and their widebody aircraft "Luxury Liner". Well, if they order the 787, they'll have the "Dreamliner", and if they're into marketing pitches at all, they could call their Y1's the "Dreamjet"!!

If AA orders the 787, will they change their livery to be unpainted black carbon fiber? Or will they just paint the planes silver?  tongue 
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 35):
Even though they were loud, I liked the DC9/MD80. I really liked the 727 even though I never flew on one... I think that those planes with the T-tail. Those planes were really neat. They were loud but I liked them that way...

If you think the DC-9 was loud, then I think you'd call 727 deafening. Sitting in the back of a 727 on a transcontinental flight almost constitutes torture by commerical aviation. Awesome looking, and they leave a nice dark smoke trail behind them. Champion Airways still flies 727-200's out of MSP, I enjoy seeing them. I flew in a few of them on NW before NW phased them out, the interiors were nothing special, much the same as a 737, a little more plain than 757 (which has the mid-cabin boarding door and in some layouts mid-cabin lavatories). It was a good airliner, just not necessarily a place you'd like to be for long trips. High-bypass engines, modern noise controls, and wing-engine mounting has done wonders for making jet airliners quieter. I once flew on a NW 727 connecting onto a NW A320, it was like night and day.

Quoting KL662 (Reply 39):

If AA orders the 787, will they change their livery to be unpainted black carbon fiber? Or will they just paint the planes silver? tongue

Hahaha, I've wondered the same thing. I'm sure they have too. The A300 and its ugly composite wingboxes and tail look bad enough. I guess they'd need a new livery, not that they aren't already way overdue, but they are a notoriously cheap airline, i'm not sure how they'd feel about painting all those planes... Maybe 787 would get its own deal, painted some kind of silver. I know one thing though. Their 767s are some of the most heavily utilized aircraft flying, and some of them are getting up there in age. The same is true of their A300s, which I'm sure they're itching to get rid of. I wouldn't at all be surprised by a 787 order from AA in the next 5-7 years.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 40):
High-bypass engines, modern noise controls, and wing-engine mounting has done wonders for making jet airliners quieter. I once flew on a NW 727 connecting onto a NW A320, it was like night and day.

Have you or anyone on here ever been on a 717? Are those really loud or are they quieter than DC9s and 727s?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Mudboy
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 41):
Have you or anyone on here ever been on a 717? Are those really loud or are they quieter than DC9s and 727s?

I have flown a few on Airtran, and they were very comfortable and quieter than the DC9s and 727s.
 
MaxQ2351
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:41 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 40):
then I think you'd call 727 deafening

Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges, but I'd say a Saab 340 or a DHC-8 are deafening!!...not a 727!!

Quoting KL662 (Reply 39):
If AA orders the 787, will they change their livery to be unpainted black carbon fiber? Or will they just paint the planes silver?

It took me a while to understand what you meant!! Yea, I hope they paint it silver because the unpainted composites on the AA A-300's are totally ugly!!

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 29):
Am I the only one who hates the fact that all new narrow-body airliners have gone to 3-3 seating.

I'm sure you aren't the only one, but you can't count me with you.

I like to sit by the window. I also like first class upgrades. MD80s are not good for me on either count. The F seats are very narrow for F seats, and the window seats are tight on my shoulders (i'm tall). I end up leaning against the wall against my will.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
the 738 is more the size of the MD80

True. Ignoring the MD87, the size ranges from 73G->MD80->738 in two class as AA would fit them (if they had a 73G). 73G would likely hold 124 like on CO, with their MD80s holding 129/131 and their 738s holding 142. I think, honestly, the efficiency of the 738 over the oldest MD82/3s that AA has would make flying those extra 11 seats around a non-issue. And the potential added revenue when load factors go above 90% (holidays, Fridays and Sundays when fares are highest) would make it a fair trade.

Again, it's only for the oldest jets should they need to before Y1 starts flying. I would expect that AA will make that decision in 2008. You would see them decide how many 738s they still want, start taking deliveries of those starting 2009, and then convert the rest of the 738 orders into their larger Y1 order.

Just my guess.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 42):
I have flown a few on Airtran, and they were very comfortable and quieter than the DC9s and 727s.

I flew HA, near the engines, and didn't find the plane loud. Those new engines with larger bypass and better insulation make a difference.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Oykie
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:21 am

RE: A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?

Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting BigJimFX (Thread starter):
but compare these numbers and let me know what you think

Just a thought here. But Scandinavian Airlines also have allot of MD-80 and since they have A321 and A319, maybe it would be a good idea for them to get some A320 and sell out the MD-80? Both the Mad Dogs and Airbuses are based in CPH so this could make sense.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas

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