N670UW
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Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:38 pm

The DoT recently released its Consumer Air Fare Report for the Third Quarter of 2005. Interestingly enough, 3rd Quarter 2005 is the first full quarter Southwest has been in Pittsburgh, as they began service in May 2005, in the middle of the 2nd Quarter.

I took a few minutes to look at the effect Southwest has had in their initial Pittsburgh markets: MDW, LAS, MCO, and PHL, comparing 3rd Quarter 2005 O&D traffic and fares to 3rd Quarter 2004. (Southwest's first PIT quarter compared to the same quarter the year before, when Southwest was not in PIT.)

(US Airways still had a "hub" at PIT in 3rd Quarter 2004, with about 370 weekday departures compared to the ~200 departures in summer 2005.)

I found this information on the DoT's website:
3rd Quarter 2004: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab6043.txt
3rd Quarter 2005: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab6053.txt

Chicago (PIT-MDW/ORD)
Trip Distance: 412 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 1015.32
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1520.43 (49.7% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $115.92
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $82.88 (28.5% decrease)




Las Vegas (PIT-LAS)
Trip Distance: 1910 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 860.21
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 825.54 (4.0% decrease)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $139.92
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $152.80 (9.2% increase)




Orlando (PIT-MCO)
Trip Distance: 834 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 865.97
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1220.00 (40.9% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $115.83
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $99.82 (13.8% decrease)




Philadelphia (PIT-PHL)
Trip Distance: 267 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 421.84
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1401.73 (232.3% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $265.90
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $83.82 (68.5% decrease)




The biggest thing to stand out is traffic in the long-overpriced PIT-PHL market more than tripling in the course of only a year, while average fares were cut by more than half. US Airways, while still the largest carrier in the market, has had its market share fall from 87.0% to 50.5% in that time (Southwest was 45.4%).

Even the more nominal (compared to PHL) market stimulations in Chicago and Orlando are impressive, given the (albeit, smaller) presence of low cost carriers in those markets at the time (TZ and FL, respectively).

The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI. There were only 53.80 local passengers on the route in 3rd Qtr 2005, but average one-way fares were $352.43! I would expect bringing that fare to say, oh, under $100 would amount to similar growth.

This wasn't meant to praise or bash WN in any way, though the growth effect Southwest has had in these markets is remarkable, particularly Philadelphia.

Comments?


N670UW
 
steeler83
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

That is rather odd. Demand on that route was supposed to go up. I thought that LAS is one of the top destinations from PIT... The other routes are no surprise to me, especially with PHL... I am a college student (known for being poor, if you will). In 2003, the lowest fare on that route was $217!!! I flew that route twice within 6 months - TWICE, 2x!!! In June of last year, a month after they started service, and again this past December I flew WN to avoid the turnpike and Greyhound... I paid $78.40 and $98.40 round trip respectively!!! 78 dollars and 40 cents!!!! round trip!!! I did not think that I would see the day I'd do that... anyway...

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI.

I agree with this. People on the other thread were asking about DCA service, and I brought up BWI. They said that PIT is too new of a market, but give it at least another year, and I can also see PIT-BWI service on WN... At least one or two flights daily to start...

It would be interesting to see how the PHX and TPA service are doing. I am guessing that since PIT-PHX is secondary hub-hub service for US and US restructured itself and merged with HP to cut costs to compete with LCCs by becomming one, that route may be struggling, but what do I know... TPA I am not sure of... Besides BWI, which destinations do you think WN will open up next within the next year or so?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
atct
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:10 pm

I wonder about PIT-MHT service. With JetBlue starting PIT-BOS, I could see some competition and fare-driving-down.

ATCT
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masseybrown
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI.

Looking at WN's entry into CLE-BWI, the result will be that the market will expand greatly but lots of PIT-DCA traffic will transfer to PIT-BWI, with service reductions in frequency and aircraft size on the DCA route. If you want to go to Baltimore, it will be great. If you want to go to Washington, there will be trade-offs.
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
If you want to go to Washington, there will be trade-offs.

What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"? 4 flights per day rather than 6?

I'm shuddering just thinking about it !
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
panam330
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:04 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
but lots of PIT-DCA traffic will transfer to PIT-BWI,

You must be referring to a different US Airways than the one that runs these routes, because the one I know of would flaunt DCA as being more convenient to Washington (which it is, by far), and would/does market these flights towards business travelers. If there is any reaction by US to this potential (and IMO not very likely) move by WN to add PIT-BWI, it would be the addition of another frequency or two. Maybe even an upgrade, but that's about it.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:29 am

WN needs to add new markets in PIT. They have been doing well. I personally thought that new cities would have already been announced.

We're waiting southwest!  Wink
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stirling
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 4):
What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"?

He meant, that it is great if you want to go to BWI, but if your ultimate destination is DCA, the tradeoff comes in deciding if the lower fare justifies the additional distance on the end of the trip.
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hoosiercfi
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:27 am

I hope that WN adds the BWI-PIT route. Anyone who has made the Friday night drive to Pittsburgh knows what a pain in the a** I-70 is in Frederick. I honestly think that this route could support 3 flights a day easily.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting HoosierCFI (Reply 8):
I honestly think that this route could support 3 flights a day easily.

This route could easily support five flights if the fare is low enough.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
cairo
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

PIT-PHL was long screaming out for WN service. It is perfect for them.

The amazing thing is how many routes are still open to WN service and how much money has yet to be saved by airline customers at the expense of bloated legacies. Note what happened when WN infringed on 2 US hubs - US itself at to become an LCC or close to it.

Cairo
 
pgh234
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:29 am

I will be commuting almost every weekend this summer between Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Dreams would come true if WN started this route.

pgh234
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 2):
I wonder about PIT-MHT service. With JetBlue starting PIT-BOS, I could see some competition and fare-driving-down.

WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

If you though PIT-PHL went up, just wait till PIT-BOS starts on jetBlue! Now if only F9 would start PIT-DEN service!
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iowaman
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 10):
LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

LAS is obviously a mass majority low yield, however there are more business travelers every day believe it or not.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 4):
What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"? 4 flights per day rather than 6?

As Stirling said, the tradeoff is time vs money. You can get from DCA to the K Street corridor in Washington in about 20 minutes by cheap subway or taxi. It takes about two hours (allowing time to wait for the van to fill up and dropoffs ahead of you) to do it by van from BWI. Comparing airfares for an overnight roundtrip two weeks from now CLE-BWI is $195 while CLE-DCA is $463.

If you're a tourist, you take the bargain fare to BWI. If you're a lawyer billing your client $475 an hour, you pay the extra $268 and go to DCA, saving your client $600 or so - in theory, anyway.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 14):
Comparing airfares for an overnight roundtrip two weeks from now CLE-BWI is $195 while CLE-DCA is $463.

Really, I just found overnight roundtrip fare on Apr. 26-27 on CO at $194 and on US at $209.
 
atct
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

No! They dont?! I know this, I said "I wonder about PIT-MHT". Sorry I guess I couldve said "I wonder if they'll Start PIT-MHT"

-ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
masseybrown
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 15):
Really, I just found overnight roundtrip fare on Apr. 26-27 on CO at $194 and on US at $209.

I just punched in a morning outbound and evening return, typical businessman's ticket, on CO for both routes and asked for the best fare. Cheaper buckets may indeed be available on other less popular flights.

I thought US quit flying CLE-DCA a few months ago. No?
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 10):
Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

Didn't/Doesn't HP offer LAS-PIT service? Pre-US merger, that might be one reason those fares might have been lower last year.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
HPRamper
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
I just punched in a morning outbound and evening return, typical businessman's ticket, on CO for both routes and asked for the best fare. Cheaper buckets may indeed be available on other less popular flights.

I thought US quit flying CLE-DCA a few months ago. No?

I used the same information you did, on Sidestep which works best for me. I'm not familiar with US East routes, but from the flight number it looks like an express route.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 18):
Didn't/Doesn't HP offer LAS-PIT service? Pre-US merger, that might be one reason those fares might have been lower last year.

Yes, HP did fly PIT-LAS. This was only for 4 months or so before the merger began. It was also only once daily, so I am not sure if this could have much to do with it.
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N670UW
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:27 am

HP (US West) still flies LAS-PIT...once daily A319 - alongside the two US (East) 757's.



N670UW
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting N670UW (Reply 21):
HP (US West) still flies LAS-PIT...once daily A319 - alongside the two US (East) 757's.

Yes they do! I shouldn't have used past tense. PIT-LAS, from what I hear does well for the three US flights!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
WN57787
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

WN has 1 Direct flt to MHT, 1 to PVD and 2 to BDL a day
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 23):
WN has 1 Direct flt to MHT, 1 to PVD and 2 to BDL a day

Well, when are they going to announce them? Direct means PIT-MHT, PIT-PVD, and PIT-BDL without stopping correct?

Or by direct do you mean PIT-PHL-MHT, PIT-PHL-PVD, and PIT-PHL-BDL without a change of aircraft?
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ScottB
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:21 am

I'd add that certain connecting Southwest markets from PIT also saw significant decreases in fares and increases in passengers between 2004 and 2005:

PIT-MHT fell 21.5% ($191 to $150) with passengers increasing 57% (118 to 185 daily)
PIT-PVD fell 20.1% ($203 to $169) with passengers increasing 38% (175 to 241 daily)
PIT-BDL fell 37.4% ($289 to $181) with passengers increasing 72% (146 to 252 daily)
PIT-RDU fell 12.8% ($187 to $163) with passengers increasing 37% (126 to 173 daily)
PIT-BHM fell 32.3% ($263 to $178) with passengers increasing 53% (47 to 72 daily)
PIT-SDF fell 13.1% ($244 to $212) with passengers increasing 19% (54 to 64 daily)

I remain surprised that PIT-BWI hasn't yet happened.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):
I remain surprised that PIT-BWI hasn't yet happened.

I am as well surprised. It's almost as if something happened between PIT and WN. Destinations should have been added by now!
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N670UW
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 26):
I am as well surprised. It's almost as if something happened between PIT and WN. Destinations should have been added by now!

I've heard WN is waiting until after 1st Qtr earnings are announced before announcing any expansion system-wide. Earnings should be announced sometime this month.


N670UW
 
steeler83
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 23):
WN has 1 Direct flt to MHT, 1 to PVD and 2 to BDL a day

When did WN start this? On WN's route map, those routes are not on there...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
N670UW
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 28):
When did WN start this? On WN's route map, those routes are not on there...

They're "direct" -- not nonstop. There's a stop in PHL, but the flight number continues on.

There's actually a difference between "direct" and "nonstop."  Wink
 
steeler83
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting N670UW (Reply 29):
They're "direct" -- not nonstop. There's a stop in PHL, but the flight number continues on.

There's actually a difference between "direct" and "nonstop."

Yes, I can see that all now. Thanks a lot  Smile

What do the loads look like on those flights? Are there a lot of ppl continuing on to those airports from PHL or not?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
WN57787
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 24):
Well, when are they going to announce them? Direct means PIT-MHT, PIT-PVD, and PIT-BDL without stopping correct?

Or by direct do you mean PIT-PHL-MHT, PIT-PHL-PVD, and PIT-PHL-BDL without a change of aircraft?

Direct is one or more stops same plane servivce.

2023 is to BDL
676 is to PVD
2149 is to MHT
899 is to BDL

all make one stop in PHL

Quoting N670UW (Reply 27):
1st Qtr earnings are announced

will be anounced on the 20th of Apirl..
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 31):
Direct is one or more stops same plane servivce.

Thanks! Well who cares about direct service, we want non-stop service! When do you think they will be adding destinations?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:33 pm

I was just thinking, with all the service that WN offers in PA now (PIT and PHL) they should have a plane in "Pennsylvania One" livery! What do you guys think?

 scratchchin 
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
WN57787
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 33):
I was just thinking, with all the service that WN offers in PA now (PIT and PHL) they should have a plane in "Pennsylvania One" livery! What do you guys think?

it is not typically for WN to Dedicate a A/C until.... they operate more then 50% of the Market for the State. they have a long ways to go!!!! MD1 was just dedicated in 2005
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 33):
I was just thinking, with all the service that WN offers in PA now (PIT and PHL) they should have a plane in "Pennsylvania One" livery! What do you guys think?

If WN starts service to ERI, MDT, and AVP, THEN maybe we'll see a "Pennsylvania One" aircraft. Of course, it'd look hideous, considering the color of our state flag (dark blue with state seal in the center).  Wink
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chrisnh
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:31 am

My wife and daughter will be flying MHT-PIT on Southwest, and in both directions they'll be on direct same-plane flights through PHL. There must be a market there (MHT-PIT), in light of that. However, I think Southwest would like to battle an incumbent, high-priced legacy carrier like USAirways rather than another LCC like JetBlue.

I met with the new Station Manager for Southwest at Manchester last week. There are a handful of new flights he'd like to see up here...not the least of which is a MHT-PHX flight. But apparently we won't be seeing anything new here until--at best--September. I suppose the fall schedule changes could bring us something new, but nothing until then.

Chris in NH
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:42 pm

I thought WN would have already started the following:

PIT-BWI
PIT-FLL
PIT-MHT
PIT-PVD
PIT-LAX

Maybe I was stupid to expect these routes. What do you guys think?
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txagkuwait
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:58 pm

>>Maybe I was stupid to expect these routes. What do you guys think?<<


Nah, you weren't stupid. My guess it is a matter of aircraft availability. The start up of MCI and STL to DAL as well as DEN. Plus the requirement to add service to MSY as the city rebuilds and demand warrants it.
 
WN57787
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 37):
Maybe I was stupid to expect these routes. What do you guys think?

WN just can not get the A/C from Bowing fast enough to full fill all the markets.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 38):



Quoting WN57787 (Reply 39):

Thanks, these are legitimate reasons! I hope they can get more Boeing aircraft faster then.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
pitflyer
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:28 am

I flew PIT-LAS roundtrip recently. On the way back they announced 110/137 seats taken with 70 of those as PIT-LAS O&D and the rest as thru (most probably to PHL, the ongoing destination of the flight)

On my outgoing flights the plane is also pretty full even before A finishes, so I think there's a lot of thru pax on the plane. It seems PHL could support more LAS flights if Southwest could find a way to schedule them...
 
steeler83
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RE: Southwest In PIT - One Year Later

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Pitflyer (Reply 41):
I flew PIT-LAS roundtrip recently. On the way back they announced 110/137 seats taken with 70 of those as PIT-LAS O&D and the rest as thru (most probably to PHL, the ongoing destination of the flight)

On my outgoing flights the plane is also pretty full even before A finishes, so I think there's a lot of thru pax on the plane. It seems PHL could support more LAS flights if Southwest could find a way to schedule them...

So this plane was a LAS-PHL direct with one stop in PIT. I guess that those pax on that plane don't count as connecting pax in PIT or do they? I have also seen planes do LAX-MDW-PIT-PHL and vise versa according to phl.org...
They have something like WN flight 299 departing for PIT, the same flight departing for MDW, and LAX as well. the departure times are also the same, so I imagine that this is what that is...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

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