Evan767
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New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:12 am

For all you people that were crying about the new DL service on tiny turbo props from JFK-RIC in September, read this:
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet...icle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835274972
Instead of flying those incredibly shaky, tiny, and slow Dash-8's, they will be flying longer, smoother flying, bigger, CRJ jets to JFK to compete with JetBlue. Yeah it won't beat JetBlue's IFE and all that other stuff, but it will help DL with the loyal customers. As well as upgrading the equipment, they will be moving up the launch date to July 5. So hopefully they can add a little revenue from the summer traffic. Take that JetBlue!
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
73G
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:29 am

"Bob Cortelyou, vice president of network planning for Delta, disclosed the new plan yesterday during an interview about the airline's service here.

"Part of it was the comments about turboprops," he said. "That's a valid response. Since Richmond is such a good market, we wanted to upgrade service.""

As opposed to the crappy markets where they will be sending the Dash 8's? DL really needs to take a look at their PR procedures.
 
TIA
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:39 am

I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops. Until last fall I had never flown in an RJ or turboprop, but having flown on both numerous times since then, I can't say that there is a noticable difference in comfort between them. In fact, I would take a Dash 8 over an RJ any day. The ERJ seems to narrow to me, and on the CRJs the windows are too low. Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.
 
TWA902fly
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.

Delta should have advertised that on their RIC-JFK service.

"Sure, JetBlue has TV's in every seat, but we at Delta believe in involving our passengers in the flight. Every passenger on board Delta's new nonstop service to Richmond will get to experience: LANDING GEAR!"

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
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lightsaber
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops

It depends on the turboprop. Some are fine, some transmit an amazing amount of vibration. A few, if you ride in the tail, feel like a roller coaster. While us on a.net might love that, more people than you can believe are truly afraid of flying. Any reason to dislike an airframe... and they will.

Not to mention the visible twirling blades of death.  duck  Seriously, how many products do we package to sell? Heck, Trader joes now packages apples!

Like it or not, there is a measurable market aversion to props that is expressed in yield differences.

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Take that JetBlue!

I hope DL isn't treating taking on B6 like a game as some of their fans seem to. B6 and FL combined are way too big for DL to squash. Hurt? Sure. Hurt more than DL hurts itself?  scratchchin  I'll let you make the call.

Oh, I agree with DL doing an international hub with domestic feed at JFK. There is a yeild/market potential for them there.

But DL taking on LCC's with RJ's?  vomit  That just makes me ill. Last I looked, a CR2 has a 40% to 50% higher CASM than an E-190. In other words, a 65% full E190 can be break even with fares that the CR2 could never make money. Yes, I understand that CR2 will be connecting to an international flight and that the route might thus be profitable. But enough more cash to subsidize the CR2?  scratchchin  Yes, DL had to do something as a Dash-8 vs. an E190... all the point to point would be on B6 except for the most loyal DL customers.  Wink

But this route, head to head with B6, has me going "huh?" I want DL to survive, not expend its last free cash thrashing out like a dying bear. Flame me if you want... but I'm just not getting the current DL strategy. I would really appreciate a link that sums it up and then shows how these new routes will lead to profit. I'm not saying the JFK hub is a bad idea... but the overall plan is a card short of a full hand. Not what I'd want to play poker with. And DL isn't holding 4 aces...

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
flyboy7974
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:05 am

If I had to fly on DL, I would rather fly a Dash 8 than the CRJ. If it would be an ERJ, no problem or even the larger CRJ -700 or -900, no problem
 
MajorNelson
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 5):
If I had to fly on DL, I would rather fly a Dash 8 than the CRJ. If it would be an ERJ, no problem or even the larger CRJ -700 or -900, no problem

You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200? You're whacked.
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
airwave
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
but it will help DL with the loyal customers.



Quoting 73G (Reply 1):
As opposed to the crappy markets where they will be sending the Dash 8's?

Indeed.

What I'm curious to know is...why this route? I'm sure there are more than a few DL routes which are currently turboprop operated yet could benefit from the introduction of a CRJ. Same logic applies if you're thinking of answering, "Because of jetBlue." The question stands. So, why single this route out at all unless and until you're prepared to make a systemic change that'll benefit *all* loyal DL flyers at *all* turboprop-served airports. Put another way, what makes RIC so special?

Airwave  eyebrow 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
flyboy7974
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:21 pm

looking at the flight times, it doesn't look like an hour time diff between the two a/c, and it were neglible, yes, I would rather fly on a Dash8 over a CRJ-200, let's say within 30min. To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day
 
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lightsaber
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 8):
To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day

I have a serious question about the CRJ. I have found the ERJ seats ok (on CO), but CRJ seats... lacking. Is that pure Mesa (seat selection) or is there a certain thin padding seat style that is common in the CRJ's?

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
mikephotos
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:50 pm

Who's Dash-8's were going to do the route?

Mike
 
73G
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 6):
You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200?

We're talking about a relatively short flight segment here, which happens to be heavily restricted by ATC constraints to altitude and airspeed. The time enroute difference is negligible. Given those circumstances, the Dash 8, in my opinion, is much more comfortable than the CRJ.
 
PVD757
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting 73G (Reply 11):
We're talking about a relatively short flight segment here, which happens to be heavily restricted by ATC constraints to altitude and airspeed. The time enroute difference is negligible. Given those circumstances, the Dash 8, in my opinion, is much more comfortable than the CRJ.

The ATC issue is very valid, and for me, the PVD-JFK service on DH8s will be much more reliable than on a CRJ (and presumedly progitable on a 150 mile segment). The DH8's can fly below 10,000 enroute and won't need the 250kt speed restrictions that jets get since it won't go much faster than that anyway. When the CRJ gets a EDCT, many times the DH8 can go when ready.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:15 pm

Why are some people against props, I flew in an ATR-72 and boy I loved it. What props feel like a roller coaster if you fly in the back? All I can say is I loved every minute of my prop ride, but maybe that's me.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
NLINK
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:13 am

I hate the SF340, old, noisy, slow. The DH8 and ATR aren't to bad but will go out of my way to fly on a jet
 
FutureFO
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:57 am

It would have been the transplanted MESA DH8's from PHX. However to put the CRJ is a big mistake. Go Emb for Emb. Put a good airplane on the run. The 145/170 would have been the better choice.



Sean from MCO and SDF
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USPIT10L
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops. Until last fall I had never flown in an RJ or turboprop, but having flown on both numerous times since then, I can't say that there is a noticable difference in comfort between them. In fact, I would take a Dash 8 over an RJ any day. The ERJ seems to narrow to me, and on the CRJs the windows are too low. Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.

My complaints about turboprops have nothing to do with passenger comfort. I've heard just as many compliments about DH8s as I have about ERJ-145/135s. But if DL thinks they can flyhese planes with the bags passengers take overseas, good luck. We could barely get the bags on the CRJs to JFK. A Dash 8 has half the weight of a CRJ. There's no way these flights will work, because the weight restrictions would kill it. Just build up JFK with OH, DL. Save yourself the problems of multiple aircraft.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
Evan767
Topic Author
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):
Why are some people against props, I flew in an ATR-72 and boy I loved it. What props feel like a roller coaster if you fly in the back? All I can say is I loved every minute of my prop ride, but maybe that's me.

Well I don't know about you guys, but I had the worst first impression with props. About 6 years ago, in January of 2000, I was flying JFK-RIC on a prop and it made me sick to my stomach. The vibration was so horrible and I honestly had the barf bag in my hand until finally we landed (thank god) and the nausous ride settled down. The flight was so incredibly slow I just wanted it to be over so bad. It was that one flight that I have felt the sickest on in my life. Oh, and I was flying from MUC-RIC (note:international). So, I don't know why you people love props so much. At least in a CRJ, the ride is quicker so you don't have to put up with the pain as long.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
PVD757
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 16):
But if DL thinks they can flyhese planes with the bags passengers take overseas, good luck. We could barely get the bags on the CRJs to JFK. A Dash 8 has half the weight of a CRJ.

without the time to look up the actual numbers, I'm fairly sure the payload differance between a CRJ and DH8 are'nt as great as you'd imagine. The baggage compartment is roughly the same size from what I recall and you have 13 less passenger's stuff in a DH8. The DH8 is well suited for short field take-offs too which would play into my understanding that it should be able to handle lots of bags and full pax on short hauls(which DL will be using them for). Perhaps a seasoned ramp agent and/or someone with access to the aircraft specs could spell me correct or way off on this one...
 
mikephotos
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 15):
It would have been the transplanted MESA DH8's from PHX. However to put the CRJ is a big mistake

Damn, that would have been nice to see (shoot) at JFK....

Mike
 
flyguy1
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 19):
Damn, that would have been nice to see (shoot) at JFK....

Mike

Mike,
The Mesa DH-8's will still be at JFK this summer, just not on the JFK-RIC route.
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
TIA
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 6):
You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200? You're whacked.

Nonsense! I have flown the same segments on both RJs and turboprops with minimal flight time difference. The time difference is never that big.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 12):
When the CRJ gets a EDCT, many times the DH8 can go when ready.

ATC isn't selective when it comes to flow programs; when flow happens, everyone gets hit.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
MajorNelson
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 8):
looking at the flight times, it doesn't look like an hour time diff between the two a/c, and it were neglible, yes, I would rather fly on a Dash8 over a CRJ-200, let's say within 30min. To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day

So, you just like the Dash 8 as a plane better than a CRJ. Fine.

But you get a 'headache' from a CRJ and NOT a Dash 8 rattletrap? Hmmmm ..
And what's with the 'neckache'? For the rest of the day? Drama queen.
I turn Tops into Bottoms.
 
PVD757
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
ATC isn't selective when it comes to flow programs; when flow happens, everyone gets hit.

Thats not true all the time. At times, aircraft that can fly above or below certain altitudes will not see the same delays as others that cannot. While rare, tower enroute clearances can get you going way before going with the airways. It all depends on the reasons for the delay program.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:22 am

JFK rarely, if ever, has ATC flow control.

Whether it's a Dash 8, CRJ, or ERJ isn't much of an issue when it comes to JFK. It isn't LGA and it sure isn't EWR.

PJ
 
73G
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 25):
JFK rarely, if ever, has ATC flow control

BS! While not as prone to GDP's as LGA or EWR, JFK has a very high number of flow control days...especially in the summer. In the past, the reason has been due to SWAP (Severe Weather Avoidance Plan). This might change has the FAA rolls out the new AFP program this summer. But to say JFK rarely has flow control is an untruth.
 
TIA
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RE: New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 23):
But you get a 'headache' from a CRJ and NOT a Dash 8 rattletrap? Hmmmm ..
And what's with the 'neckache'? For the rest of the day? Drama queen.

First of all, you lose all credibility when you call the Dash 8 a rattletrap. Secondly, he was refering to the fact that on the CRJ you have to lower your head to see outside the window and that causes a neckache if done for prolonged periods of time.

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