as739x
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Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:11 pm

Its been confirmed in our inter-company forum that QX is looking at the EMB-190.

Q. I've heard that Horizon Air is looking to add the EMB190 aircraft to its fleet. How does this aircraft fit into the plan?

A. Horizon is indeed looking at the EMB190 aircraft, as well as the CRJ900 and other aircraft that may be candidates for growth aircraft in support of our long-term Alaska Air Group strategic plan. The Alaska and Horizon planning teams work jointly in this planning process, and we make it our business to be up on the details of all aircraft types for this purpose. As a result, we're continually in the loop with (and being pitched by) all aircraft manufacturers, including Embraer. However, that said, we're still quite a ways from making a decision on this, or any other type of new aircraft.

Fleet and market planning for Air Group is a collaborative process between Alaska and Horizon and an extension of the "harmonization" initiatives that have proved fruitful for both companies. Recommendations stem from a thorough analysis of many things, including current fleet compositions, existing market performance and future market opportunity, competitive and economic assumptions, etc. From there, the planning teams further refine the fleet plans in an effort to identify what we'll need that we currently don't have if we're to capitalize on the opportunities. During this stage, the planning groups are looking to match each market opportunity to the optimal aircraft/schedule solution and also to determine if Alaska or Horizon have the right aircraft in the fleet, or not. Over the years, this process has led us to consider adding 737-800s to the Alaska fleet and more Q400s to the Horizon fleet.

We will continue to evaluate new categories of airplanes as market and competitive conditions determine. Our goal, which we've remained consistent with, is to make fleet decisions that provide long-term profitable growth for both companies, and not to grow one company at the expense of the other.

Horizon Air (April 12, 2006) www.alaskasworld.com

This come from a Q & A forum.

ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:08 pm

My bet is QX will go CRJ900 for fleet commonality, but I would rather see the jungle jets for greater passenger comfort. The Bombardier aircraft are very good aircraft, they are just a little cramped for me.

Thanks for the news!
 
planemaker
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 1):
My bet is QX will go CRJ900 for fleet commonality, but I would rather see the jungle jets for greater passenger comfort.

From a commonality point of view it makes sense... but look at Mesa's decision to move to the E195 even though they were the CRJ900's launch customer.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:35 pm

The difference between QX and Mesa is QX is an all-Bombardier fleet while Mesa already operates the 145. I doubt QX will introduce an aircraft completely different from all their other aircraft when they have the option of an aircraft that is essentially a streach of an aircraft they already have (CRJ700). However, I would be very happy if I am wrong especially since the comfort of the 190 would match QX's excellent service.
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:38 pm

I am surprised that AS pilots don't want to fly the 190 for themselves.

-SOAC
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planemaker
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 3):
The difference between QX and Mesa is QX is an all-Bombardier fleet while Mesa already operates the 145.

FYI, the 145 has no commonality with the E-jets so Mesa continuing with the CRJ900s (which they already have 15 CRJ700s and 39 CRJ900s) would obviously have made the most "sense" but they are not. I would not rule out completely QX picking the E-jets.
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 4):
I am surprised that AS pilots don't want to fly the 190 for themselves.

I actually have thought that the 190/195 would more than likely end up in more mainline fleets and the 170/175 would end up with the connection carriers; Horizon, Mesa, SkyWest etc..
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frugalqxnwa
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 5):
FYI, the 145 has no commonality with the E-jets so Mesa continuing with the CRJ900s (which they already have 15 CRJ700s and 39 CRJ900s) would obviously have made the most "sense" but they are not. I would not rule out completely QX picking the E-jets.

I didn't know if there was any commonality, but thanks for the info. Just keep in mind that Mesa and QX are two different companies, and QX is currently profitable and pretty conservative. QX probably will want to stay with a one-manufacturer fleet for now, but the E190 would be a pleasant surprise.
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:19 am

I understand Mesa/GO's plans for the E195s are mainly due to the enormous amounts of cargo and pax baggage on the HI inter-island flights, allowing them to compete with the 717s already flying. But isn't QX quite happy with their CR7s and this might just be a scare tactic to wring some juicy discounts from BBD on the CRJ900s? Does QX have pilot scope-clause restrictions allowing 70 seats only - which are soon-to-be loosened to allow 80+ seats?
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:26 am

My bet is that QX ends up with the E-Jet line. AS has seen the benefits of buying models part of a versatile family (operating 737-700, 800, and 900), and QX will very likely follow in that trend. With Bombardier already looking beyond the CRJ line, the CRJ-200/700/900 lineup seems to me not to be enhanced or changed much further, where the E-Jets are at the beginning of what will likely be a very fruitful life.

AS has made these sorts of leaps before -- they ordered a good number of MD-90 on top of their MD-80 fleet before changing direction and embracing the 737.
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 2):
From a commonality point of view it makes sense... but look at Mesa's decision to move to the E195 even though they were the CRJ900's launch customer.

Mesa pilots will NOT fly the 195, despite what Orenstein wishes. They shot down his desires to operate 737s because he was going to pay them peanuts and working conditions are the worst in the industry.
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting AS739X (Thread starter):
Its been confirmed in our inter-company forum that QX is looking at the EMB-190.

EVERYBODY is looking at the plane.
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wedgetail737
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:26 am

Either way, I think it will be cool to see some new equipment QX. What part of QX will be seeing the new jets? Frontier or Alaska?
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:05 am

Maverick: Understood. I'm just letting you know that it was posted on the Alaska/Horizon website. Not every carrier looking at a plane posted it on their site. That being said I just posted this for all you A.netters!

ASLAX
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AirframeAS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:53 am

Flashmeister: in reply to your post # 19; AS has never had the M90 in its fleet. They have looked at the aircraft and maybe considered an order, but the M90 never wore AS colors. All AS had from McDD was the M83.

Don't forget to add the 734 with the other 737 types you mentioned in your post. I doubt the 734's are on their way out anytime soon.
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Flashmeister: in reply to your post # 19; AS has never had the M90 in its fleet. They have looked at the aircraft and maybe considered an order, but the M90 never wore AS colors. All AS had from McDD was the M83.

Actually, AS was an initial launch customer for the MD-90 along with Delta, it had 20 on order. When the economy tanked after '91 it later was allowed by MD to drop the MD90 in favor of more MD80s.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 4):
I am surprised that AS pilots don't want to fly the 190 for themselves.

-SOAC

Interesting comment. Alaska doesn't have a scope clause, however it must tread carefully not to provoke one from it's pilots. Up until a few years ago it was careful to make sure QX didn't invade AS turf, however, since 9/11 Airgroup has had an active harmonization program where QX has taken over AS in several markets, specifically out of PDX. I know this is already a bone of contention with AS pilots. If QX introduced an aircraft in the 100 seat category it would only bring this issue to the forefront. The contract is up next year and everyone knows it's going to get hot as the pilots try to recoup part or all of the 26% pay cut.
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 12):
What part of QX will be seeing the new jets? Frontier or Alaska?

Very interesting question.  Smile

mariner
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N730AS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
All AS had from McDD was the M83.


Don't forget the MD-82s from Jet America!
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stirling
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:07 am

....and if Bombardier had the their collective s**t together, this discussion would be about Horizon talking with them. But alas, it is not, and Horizon has to look to another supplier to fulfill their mission obligations.

This fact is backed up by the very fact that if Horizon were happy with the CRJ900, Embraer would not even be talked about right now.

Truth is, the Embraer is a giant leap forward from anything Bombardier can offer at present.

Don't they realize this?

Hasn't their marketing department, like every other airframe manufacturer, identified this huge segment of the world's airline fleet that needs replacing?
Conservative estimates peg the 75-125 seat market at over 2,000 aircraft over the next 20 years.......and they are standing on the sidelines doing nothing? It is hard for me to believe.

Come on Bombardier, bite the proverbial bullet, commit to the funding, build the aircraft, or your future in this world will be very short indeed. The 737-200/300/500s and DC-9/MD80s will not last forever.....no matter what NW has to say on the subject!
 Wink
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AirframeAS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:18 am

Yes! I almost forgot about the M82's.

AS was never the launch customer for the M90. They were the launch customer for the M83. There is a plaque at the SEA base MX hangar showing that.
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N730AS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:21 am

AirframeAS, do you know how many of the MD-82s are still in the fleet, and which a/c they are?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:42 am

730AS: at this time no. AS has been busy phasing out the MD's since 1998-99, but slowly. I have not been keeping track these days. When I was working there, we didn't have very many M82's, IIRC. I'm assuming the M82's have already been phased out.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:52 am

An EMB-190 in QX colors would be hot, but I'm inclined to think they'll go with the CRJ-900 to maintain fleet commonality if they place an order for a larger RJ.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:10 am

WOW! That is great news. I would love to see the 190 creeping around on the ramp in SEA.

QX could easily drop the CRJ's in favor of the 190's. I recall seeing QX using 328's, and eventually dumping them.

Whatever works for QX. The 190 would be a great fit for them.
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as739x
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:15 am

N730AS: Here are your Mad Dawg's!

931A
934A
935A
943A
944A
947A
948A
949A
950A
958A
960A
961A
962A
964LA
965LA
968LA
969LA
972A
973A
974A
975A
976A
977A
979A
981A
982A

ASLAX

[Edited 2006-04-14 03:16:33]
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planemaker
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):
Hasn't their marketing department, like every other airframe manufacturer, identified this huge segment of the world's airline fleet that needs replacing?

They did... and proposed the BRJ-X... but "chickened out" when faced with the competition from FD and EMB... but thought that they could still succeed with the CRJ900 stretch since it had commonality with the 200 and 700.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):
Conservative estimates peg the 75-125 seat market at over 2,000 aircraft over the next 20 years.......and they are standing on the sidelines doing nothing? It is hard for me to believe.

BBD is already in the 75-86 seat market so they are doing something!?!? And the 2,000 aircraft not only include the lower end but the bulk of the 2,000 aircraft are front loaded to the first decade of the 20 year prediction.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):
Come on Bombardier, bite the proverbial bullet, commit to the funding, build the aircraft, or your future in this world will be very short indeed. The 737-200/300/500s and DC-9/MD80s will not last forever.....no matter what NW has to say on the subject!

You are not the only one that is doubting BBD's future as a commercial airframer. But even if BBD moves forward to address this segment, by the time that BBD's aircraft EIS it will be too late as the majority of the aircraft in this segment will already have been retired or replaced.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:36 am

I guess if the 190's went to Frontier JetExpress and the CRJ's stayed at Horizon Air operationally, there probably wouldn't be much of an issue with scope.

But would QX get a new type for FJX when that contract could end sometime down the road and leave them with the 190's back at AS/QX? I don't see them getting rid of the CR7's, as they seem to fit most missions well and are already in the fleet. A CR9 would be a nice match, and fill the gap well on west coast routes - why complicate things with the Embraer's when AS/QX could go 737NG/CRJ/Q for it's entire line?

-Dave
-Dave
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting N730AS (Reply 20):
AirframeAS, do you know how many of the MD-82s are still in the fleet, and which a/c they are?

All the ex-Jet America MDs are long gone. Thank god for that.
They had smaller overhead bins and were getting a little long in the tooth.
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HikesWithEyes
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting N730AS (Reply 20):
and which a/c they are?

The were originally N778JA-N785JA.
They were later renumbered N951AS, N953AS,N954AS,955AS,956AS,N957AS,
N966AS.
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
remcor
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 25):
They did... and proposed the BRJ-X... but "chickened out" when faced with the competition from FD and EMB... but thought that they could still succeed with the CRJ900 stretch since it had commonality with the 200 and 700.

Yes, and then they decided to spend their efforts mulling a 120+ seat aircraft, where they'd be competing with Airbus and Boeing instead of a 70-110 seat aircraft where they'd only really be competing with Embraer... someone they've already been competing with fairly sucessfully for 10 years. Talk about boneheaded business decisions.
 
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:52 am

I had a feeling that all the M82s were gone, the very small overhead bins were a total joke. You couldn't fit very much in there.
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Don't forget to add the 734 with the other 737 types you mentioned in your post. I doubt the 734's are on their way out anytime soon.

Not to digress from the topic, but when is the first 734 freighter (N709AS
if i remember right) is supposed to return from its conversion in Alabama?
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:49 pm

717-200:

May 5th N709AS is scheduled to be sent back to Seattle (the combi)

Jun 7th N768AS is scheduled to be sent back to Seattle (all freighter)

ASLAX
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AirframeAS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:25 pm

I thought 754 was supposed to become a combi. What happened to that aircraft? 709 is a much newer aircraft...why use newer aircraft for this project? Using the older ones make more sense. I know the last -490 delivered was a/c 713.
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SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:35 pm

Actually you've got it reversed; the 1st a/c (N709AS) is the all freighter due back in May. The first combi comes in June.
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:24 pm

Airframe: They bombed the idea of 754AS becuase they wanted to keep the resale value of the 400combi up, so they used newer planes. Not to mention 754 has been a black sheep as of late. They will stay with some newer 400 for the last 3.

ASLAX
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:53 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 25):
Quoting Stirling (Reply 18):
Hasn't their marketing department, like every other airframe manufacturer, identified this huge segment of the world's airline fleet that needs replacing?

They did... and proposed the BRJ-X... but "chickened out" when faced with the competition from FD and EMB... but thought that they could still succeed with the CRJ900 stretch since it had commonality with the 200 and 700.

They had the chance to get someting completely new in 2002, without having to do everything by themselves, including a state-of-the-art production plant and orders from their biggest european customer (which hasn't placed any new order since...). However, BBD decided that they could do it alone and well... ended up streching the CRJ700 and considering but dumping the BRJ-X Mk1 and Mk2.

Re QX: will depend how many they are talking about, and what missions they are intended for. The smaller the subfleet will be, the smaller the incentive to get a completely new type.
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flashmeister
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:00 pm

Flashmeister: in reply to your post # 19; AS has never had the M90 in its fleet. They have looked at the aircraft and maybe considered an order, but the M90 never wore AS colors. All AS had from McDD was the M83.

I never said that the MD90s actually made it into the fleet  Smile (I didn't say that AS was a launch customer for the MD90, either, as mentioned earlier.)

Alaska absolutely went farther than just looking or considering an order for MD90 -- they placed an order for 20 MD90 in January 1990 (source: New York Times). These orders were subsequently cancelled, and you're right, Alaska hasn't actually operated MDs other than the MD83.

My point is that Alaska has made dramatic fleet planning shifts before, so to change horses now and go for the E-Jets over the CRJ at Horizon would be nothing new.
 
N730AS
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:22 pm

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 37):
Alaska hasn't actually operated MDs other than the MD83.

AHEM!.......MD-82s!!!!  Big grin
N730AS (s/n 22577) 737-290C Registered Jun-29-1981
 
planemaker
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting Remcor (Reply 29):
Yes, and then they decided to spend their efforts mulling a 120+ seat aircraft, where they'd be competing with Airbus and Boeing instead of a 70-110 seat aircraft where they'd only really be competing with Embraer...

BBD actually had a 130-seat BRJ-X design on the drawing board when they cancelled the project in 2000.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 36):
They had the chance to get someting completely new in 2002,

FD was not in trouble when BBD officially cancelled the BRJ-X in 2000. And the CRJ900 was launched in 1999. And when they didn't pursue an FD purchase (after having gone through the books) they said that it was because the FD728 needed another $1-billion to get it certified... wrong or not but that was their story and they are sticking to it.

You may have forgotten that BBD also took a look at Fokker in 1996... and should have gotten it considering that BBD (Shorts) built the wings.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 36):
orders from their biggest european customer (which hasn't placed any new order since...)

LH's board approved the purchase of 12 CRJ900s in Dec/05.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 36):
BBD decided that they could do it alone and well... ended up streching the CRJ700

As noted above, the CRJ900 was launched in 1999... 3 years before FD went south.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 39):
As noted above, the CRJ900 was launched in 1999... 3 years before FD went south.

True, but IMO in late 2000 it was already very clear that the CRJ900 was not received in the market as expected, and that in the ranking FD728/928, Embraer 170/195 the CRJ700/900 would - at least in the longer-term - be by far No 3.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 39):
FD was not in trouble when BBD officially cancelled the BRJ-X in 2000. And the CRJ900 was launched in 1999. And when they didn't pursue an FD purchase (after having gone through the books) they said that it was because the FD728 needed another $1-billion to get it certified... wrong or not but that was their story and they are sticking to it.

They knew that with the BRJ-X they would be the last in the market, compared to the other two new projects, and shelving it was the best they could do at that time. I don't think that anyone had the foresight at that time that one of these two promising projects would fail.

Even though expensive, BBD's best chance to compete with Embraer on par in the longer-term would have been the acquisition of the FD728/928. 1 bn would have been still less compared to a complete new design from BBD.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 39):
LH's board approved the purchase of 12 CRJ900s in Dec/05.

I re-phrase my earlier wording: LH hasn't placed any order in the magnitude of what they had ordered before (60+60 orders) - and I am sure that that was one of the big hopes BBD had when the FD728 was killed - that all these nice orders would roll to BBD - and look what they have gotten today. 1/5th or 1/10, depending on how you look at it.
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planemaker
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RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 40):
True, but IMO in late 2000 it was already very clear that the CRJ900 was not received in the market as expected, and that in the ranking FD728/928, Embraer 170/195 the CRJ700/900 would - at least in the longer-term - be by far No 3.

Yes, the 900 hasn't had the impact that BBD had hoped but it was a "cheap" stretch. And the 700 has done quite well.

But neither did the FD928 or ERJ190-200 enjoy success beyond Lufthansa and Crossair (and of course the eventual GECAS orders).

Furthermore, FD was already in trouble in the second half of 1999 before being bailed out by Clayton, Dubilier & Rice... a year before BBD cancelled the BRJ-X.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 40):
They knew that with the BRJ-X they would be the last in the market, compared to the other two new projects, and shelving it was the best they could do at that time.

No, the BRJ-X would not have been the last to market.

When BBD unveiled the BRJ-X, Embraer was just studying a 70- and 90-seat jet. In fact, BBD made a pitch to LH... and to Crossair in 1998 (even though FD had the pole position).

Of course, EMB was very lucky that FD dropped the ball on the initial Crossair order intention (as late as Nov/98) that allowed EMB to snag the order from FD... which eventually led to the current 4 models of E-jets being developed for only $1-billion.

But no one in the industry envisioned that Scopes would start to be loosend after 2001 and allow the +90 seater in N. America or the E190s success with yet to be launched jetBlue, etc, etc.

As well, BAe had not yet cancelled their RJ-X so the very limited (at the time) 90-seat market was too competitive for BBD to stomach launching the BRJ-X on spec. And don't forget that ATR was also on the verge of a decision for launching their 70- and 90-seats Airjet.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 40):
I don't think that anyone had the foresight at that time that one of these two promising projects would fail.

I think that BBD expected FD to fail, and EMB to stall after the Crossair order (and look at what has happened to Crossair...) Beyond the LH (& Gecas) orders FD did not really make any market inroads yet was spending money trying to get a 428, 528, and stretched 928 into development... with limited financial resources. On the other hand, BBD was financially very strong (at the time!!) and was well positioned to "inherit" the market (or so they imagined) without having to spend a lot of money.

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 40):
Even though expensive, BBD's best chance to compete with Embraer on par in the longer-term would have been the acquisition of the FD728/928. 1 bn would have been still less compared to a complete new design from BBD.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. For the reasons given in the previous paragraph, it is undertandable why BBD felt that the return would not be worth the investment in FD... just like they thought with Fokker.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1940
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 41):
Yes, the 900 hasn't had the impact that BBD had hoped but it was a "cheap" stretch. And the 700 has done quite well.

I have kept a copy of Flight International magazine, 12-18 June 2001, where there is a report on the "Regional revolution" as part of their Paris 2001 airshow feature.

The E-jets were already making headlines back then, and BBD were faced with challenges already then, it seems: "Bombardier's initial inclination had been to break new ground with the proposed 90-110-seat BRJ-X until its clientele pointed it in another direction. It's basically through these discussions that our current customers were asking us: why don't we make a 90-seater that is common to what we already have now? We kept telling them that we couldn't do that, but eventually, with a bit more encouragement, we found that we could, recalls Jean-Guy Blondin, CRJ700/900 programme director." (FI, 12-18 June 2001, p66)

"Bombardier tailored the CRJ700 for the 70/78-seat market at the airlines' behest, but with hindsight admits it would have designed a slightly larger wing if it had seen the need for a full size 90-seater." (FI, 12-18 June 2001, p66)

BBD used the CRJ700 prototype to make the CRJ900 protoype by adding more fuselage frames and strenghtening the structure. With the E-jets looming on the horizon and knowing already that the CRJ900 was more inadequate and "sluggish" than the CRJ700 performance-wise, how come they didn't extend the CRJ900 prototype by 1-2 fuselage frames and created a larger wing back in 2001-2002? They could have garnered a lot of sales with such a version already... instead of mulling such a stretch now with EIS in 2008. BBD had big sales back then and made a lot of money, so the costs should have been acceptable. Several Europen airlines were very interested in the CRJ900 but didn't order any... BBD ought to have focused more on the European carriers as US carriers were riddled with scope-clauses limiting seats to 70 per aircraft and thus limiting sales potential in the US.

Of course, it is very easy for me to come up with such clever ideas with all this hindsight, but it is puzzling that BBD was so slow to react, especially when they were able to predict a lot of how the future would be back in 2001...

Now, even the CRJ700 sales have slown down considerably. Looks like even 70 seats are not profitable in today's market...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 35):
Not to mention 754 has been a black sheep as of late.

It always have been dubbed the black sheep at AS. No question!

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 37):
I never said that the MD90s actually made it into the fleet (I didn't say that AS was a launch customer for the MD90, either, as mentioned earlier.)

Somebody mentioned that DL and AS were the co-launch customers for the M90 and I know that isnt true because AS never took 1 M90. But AS was the launch customer for the M83.

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 37):
These orders were subsequently cancelled, and you're right, Alaska hasn't actually operated MDs other than the MD83.

ermmm... M82's from Jet America....but those were phased out a long time ago.

Ok now...where is AS at on the idea of ordering the 739ER?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5450
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 43):
Somebody mentioned that DL and AS were the co-launch customers for the M90 and I know that isnt true because AS never took 1 M90.

Maybe it's semantics, but couldn't you be a launch customer initially but utlimately not take delivery of a single copy of that model? I'm thinking along the lines of Crossair/E195.

One might say that Crossair was a launch customer, as they placed an initial order that kicked off that model. Another might say they aren't a launch customer because they (likely) won't take delivery of any of that model. (Correct me if I'm wrong on their order status for the E-jet).

-Dave
-Dave
 
UA_727
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 7:53 am

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:19 am

Quote:
With the E-jets looming on the horizon and knowing already that the CRJ900 was more inadequate and "sluggish" than the CRJ700 performance-wise, how come they didn't extend the CRJ900 prototype by 1-2 fuselage frames and created a larger wing back in 2001-2002?

I wasn't aware that the -900 was inferior to the -700 in terms of performance. Could someone please clarify? While it could certainly be chocked up to employee/product loyalty, all of the pilots that I've spoke with regarding flying the -900 hail its performance (cruise, climb, handeling, etc.) as outstanding and the best of the CRJ series.

Thanks in advance.  Wink  Wink

-UA-
"AW - I'm on Board..."
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:53 am

I think the E190's are more sexier than the CRJ's....but that's just me. biggrin 
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1940
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting UA_727 (Reply 45):
all of the pilots that I've spoke with regarding flying the -900 hail its performance (cruise, climb, handeling, etc.) as outstanding and the best of the CRJ series.

Really? That is good to hear  Smile I don't mind being proven wrong when it comes to my favourite Canadian bird... more good news, please!

I have read in aviation mags that airlines were slightly disappointed about the -900 needing a long takeoff-roll (1,900+ metres) to get off the ground and that made the aircraft unsuitable for many airports, as opposed to the -700 which, apparently, takes to the air after 1,400 metres... However, the Enhanced Performance Package has probably fixed a lot of that...?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting UA_727 (Reply 45):
I wasn't aware that the -900 was inferior to the -700 in terms of performance. Could someone please clarify? While it could certainly be chocked up to employee/product loyalty, all of the pilots that I've spoke with regarding flying the -900 hail its performance (cruise, climb, handeling, etc.) as outstanding and the best of the CRJ series.

I suppose an example of this is the fact that Skywest is about to begin operating the 700 in/out of Aspen.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Horizon Air: Looking At The EMB-190

Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 42):
It's basically through these discussions that our current customers were asking us: why don't we make a 90-seater that is common to what we already have now? We kept telling them that we couldn't do that, but eventually, with a bit more encouragement, we found that we could, recalls Jean-Guy Blondin, CRJ700/900 programme director."

That statement by Blondin was complete spin that was a very lousy attempt to save face from the BRJ-X tactical retreat. Not one BBD customer asked for a "90-seat" CRJ. After all, it really isn't even a 90-seat aircraft. If you look back through your FI collection you will find articles such as, "A Stretch Too Far."

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 42):
Of course, it is very easy for me to come up with such clever ideas with all this hindsight, but it is puzzling that BBD was so slow to react, especially when they were able to predict a lot of how the future would be back in 2001...

The past always looks a lot simpler than it was. In reality the situation was far different than what it now appears. There really was a very small market for +90-seaters and it made no business sense to launch a larger aircraft.

And regarding predicting the future, I am sure that you will agree that BBD could not have predicted 9/11 in 2001.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein