thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
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New Terminal For Phoenix

Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:21 pm

Well, it looks like the new West Terminal will finally be started in Phoenix

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0413skyharbor0413.html

No mention of how they will accomodate the airlines currently in terminal two. I imagine that they will either add the fourth south concourse to terminal four, or they will rebuild the second south concourse of terminal three.
The GoodDoctor
 
AirCop
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:10 pm

Figures the easiest terminal to use will be gone. My guess United will move to Terminal 4 with the other SA members, and Terminal 3 south side there are gates that sit empty much of the day (i.e. Midwest/JetBlue) that should be able to serve Alaska needs, and put Continental on the north side.
 
slider
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:01 pm

Well, we all knew T2's days were numbered. I'm surprised it took them this long. The biggest complaint (coincidentally that they didn't cite in the article) was the TSA backup at T2...it is disgraceful!!!

I found this quote interesting--light rail to link the terminals and rental facility instead of the buses.

Quote:
In addition to the 33-gate terminal, the airport plans to:

• Realign Sky Harbor Boulevard.
• Build two new taxiways west of the existing Terminal 2.
• Expand the automated people-mover system, a tram that will connect passengers to light rail, the rental car center and the airport's terminals.
 
flyboy7974
Posts: 1210
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:20 pm

really a no-brainer on moving people at all out of term 2. there is enough space in terminals 3/4 if airlines are forced to maximize their gate useage. On the south side of term 3, I am sure there are 3-4 gates that aren't used since ATA has moved to SWA term 4 and Midwest is left all alone. On the north side of term 3, if Delta was forced to condense operations, that would free up another gate, maybe but I doubt 2. Then over in terminal 4 airlines could use the intl concourse as long as PHX operations offered airlines a break on rental space since the airline would be moving at the request of the city. That's a main reason why HP and then SWA expanded their own terminal facilities because of the huge increase that PHX charges airlines to use gates B18 and higher. And then who knows, maybe Great Lakes will have no where to go, and PHX could kiss them good bye and Mesa/America West Express could get back our dang PRC route, sorry, a lil anger on that one. I would guess that Great Lakes would use maybe the old Eagle gates that are below the south side of terminal 3
 
dbo861
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 1):
My guess United will move to Terminal 4 with the other SA members, and Terminal 3 south side there are gates that sit empty much of the day (i.e. Midwest/JetBlue) that should be able to serve Alaska needs, and put Continental on the north side.

From the article~
"They plan to build the 33-gate facility in phases and will open the first phase before the existing terminal is torn down."

I'm guessing United and the other SA members will move into this first phase since it will be complete before the existing terminal is torn down. I wonder if this new terminal will be designed like mirror image of T4 and eventually replace terminal 3.
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 3):
I would guess that Great Lakes would use maybe the old Eagle gates that are below the south side of terminal 3

Are these the parking spots that ATA occasionally parks their 75s?

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 4):
From the article~
"They plan to build the 33-gate facility in phases and will open the first phase before the existing terminal is torn down."

My bad... I wasn't quite awake yet.

Quoting Dbo861 (Reply 4):
I'm guessing United and the other SA members will move into this first phase since it will be complete before the existing terminal is torn down. I wonder if this new terminal will be designed like mirror image of T4 and eventually replace terminal 3.

Prior to 9/11 when plans for the West terminal were released, I believe this was a plan, so as to eventually make a larger version of T4. I wish I could find a copy of this original plan. I remember the original actually cut off West access to the commercial landside portion of the airport. As such, the plan called for a very large terminal building that looked like it could accomodate landside operations for 12 or more concourses? If this is still the plan, it could be a lot less convenient for some passengers considering the new rental car megaplex is a mile west of the airport, requiring all of those busses to travel around the airport to get to the facility.
The GoodDoctor
 
redflyer
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:07 am

I wonder if they will finally re-number the terminals so that visitors will stop asking "What happened to T1?"

Personally, I'll be glad to see T2 go. The convenience of that building is on the outside. Once you're inside, it's a zoo.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:12 am

I can't believe that some people have a nostagic love of T2. It is a pit. On busy days it is a real nightmare. Now, if only Oakland would replace T2's twin...ah, wishful thinking.

Mike
 
flyboy7974
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:29 am

The old Eagle gates, well, now I haven't been into Terminal 3 South in a long long long time, but, as you entered the terminal, on the left hand side, the AA side (east) of Terminal 3, there use to be a counter with about 5-6 seats next to a window, all this in about a 10X10 ft area, and then an elevator. AA Eagle use to utilize this area when Eagle SWM a/c flew to PSP/YUM and it has been empty since. Like I said though, I haven't been into terminal 3 now in years, but I can't see that whole area being torn down or just taken away. Who is using the gates on the south side of terminal 3, west area where Midwest and ATA were?
 
desertjets
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:10 am

The West Terminal, the improvements to T4, and the automated people mover cannot come soon enough if you ask me. Sky Harbor is just busting at the seams these days.

T2 was generally an easy terminal to use. However once you have several arrivals at once the approach roads and baggage claim become a sea of humanity that is almost unbearable. It will be sad to see it go as it is a significant piece of aviation history in Phoenix. Afterall it was Sky Harbor's first modern jet age terminal. It would be nice to see the mosaic terrazo floor and the clock preserved from T2 and placed in the new facility.



I guess from the AZ Republic article the design of T-West isn't firmed up by any means. But I generally imagine it will be a modernized mirror image of T4. And with 33-34 gates should have 4 concourses of roughly 10 gates a piece.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
CWAFlyer
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:33 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:26 am

I say good riddance. T2 is akin to T6 in LAX and the F gates in ORD.
Most of the security line problems are due to only having 2 of
the 4 lines open. I stood in line for nearly an hour one morning
trying to get on a PHX-ORD flight. The line went all the way
from the checkpoint, down the ramp, and down next to
baggage claim and the old rental car counters. They finally
opened a 3rd line.
 
kearnet
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:56 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:51 am

I guess I'm one of the crazy ones who too will miss PHX T2.

For 12 years as a nonrev employee brat, My annual school spring break always meant flying out west on US to PHX. I remember the early years (cir 1990) when PHX was a focus city for US and they ruled the T2 hammerhead, even had a club there.

I'll miss the groan my grandmother always gave when arriving and we did what she called the "never ending walk" through the downstairs hallway enroute to baggage claim; The giant mural of the phoenix (I wonder if they can save/preserve that); The old red LED board with it's image of a short and chubby 727 welcoming you (removed during the last T2 update)

I have many fond memories of boarding red eyes back east, and of being bumped from flghts, which I liked because the T2 hammer head as such a great panaromic view of the field.

Somewhere in my archive I have the newsletter (courtesy of my late grandfather, the US pilot) US gave out when they started service to PHX with the then new 727s. Hack I even remember that they still had the orange/brown stylized logo sign up behind the check in the first two years I flew through there

Everytime I was there it was never cramped or over crowded.

Some of you may despise PHX T2, for me, it's a cornerstone of my love for aviation.


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thegooddoctor
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 9):
T2 was generally an easy terminal to use. However once you have several arrivals at once the approach roads and baggage claim become a sea of humanity that is almost unbearable. It will be sad to see it go as it is a significant piece of aviation history in Phoenix. Afterall it was Sky Harbor's first modern jet age terminal. It would be nice to see the mosaic terrazo floor and the clock preserved from T2 and placed in the new facility.

It is a nostalgic place - nice to walk through when you aren't flying  Wink Lines at TSA are awful however, and it's not exactly the most convenient place to collect checked bags if there's a lot of incomming traffic (better now than the days when US and UA had DC-10s, 767s, and 757s arriving...) I do hope, however, that they retain some of the nostalgic feel of the "old sky harbor" - I have seen rumors printed that there will be a museum in the new terminal commemorating Sky Harbor's history.
The GoodDoctor
 
mah584jr
Posts: 422
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:35 pm

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 2):
I found this quote interesting--light rail to link the terminals and rental facility instead of the buses.

I love the conveniency of rails in an airport. I think they work really well with the size of some of todays larger airports. I mean, could you imagine having to walk from the T Gates to Terminal E in ATL. No way! I'm also very impressed with JFK's new train system between terminals. That airport is so expansive, and it's nice to see a convenient link between the terminals. I love how MCO is laid out with its rail links to one central terminal. PHX is another great location for a train. I think it's a great idea.

That said, I love the old fashioned air terminals. They remind of the simpler days of aviation. I think the old T2 was great, but passenger traffic has necessitated a larger terminal. If the new terminal could some how incorporate the design of the old terminal into its structure, I think the new terminal would be very pleasing to all.
 
CX747
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:55 am

I have flown out of Terminal 2 many times. I can understand why it is being replaced, but it really is easy to get in and out of. I don't think I've had a quicker aircraft-baggage-car time anywhere else! Does anyone know where they are going to put Continental during the construcition period? Also, will CO operate out of the new terminal once it is completed?
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
slider
Posts: 6805
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Kearnet (Reply 11):
I have many fond memories of boarding red eyes back east, and of being bumped from flghts,

Fond? I remember getting bumped off TW flights in T2 when that place was an aging, dated shithole. I won't miss it. It had zero amenities until a few short years ago, totally substandard in every way.

Quoting Kearnet (Reply 11):
which I liked because the T2 hammer head as such a great panaromic view of the field.

I here you on this. Very great vantage point- if they're taking off westbound on the parallels, T2 is about at the rotate point for most aircraft.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 14):
Also, will CO operate out of the new terminal once it is completed?

That depends on whether or not CO can effect a move to co-locate with NW and DL in T3. It's been a sore subject.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 7):
I can't believe that some people have a nostagic love of T2. It is a pit. On busy days it is a real nightmare. Now, if only Oakland would replace T2's twin...ah, wishful thinking.



Quoting Kearnet (Reply 11):
I guess I'm one of the crazy ones who too will miss PHX T2.

My first trip to Phoenix was 30 years ago on Western....12Jun76. I am terribly nostalgic about T2 and will be very sad to see it go, as I was the even older T1.....but I understand full well it is no longer suited to today's aviation world.


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What I found more interesting in this article was the mention of Williams Gateway Airport becoming an official reliever to Skyharbor.

Quote:
But even as Sky Harbor prepares to boost its capacity, it is clear that the airport can grow only so much and that officials are soon going to have to look at other options for passenger air service. Phoenix appears increasingly willing to explore whether Williams Gateway Airport in Mesa would make a good reliever airport.

"We're hoping, and I believe, that Williams Gateway will eventually share in and handle some of the (air traffic) load," Sky Harbor Airport Director David Krietor said.

Just what role Williams Airport will eventually play in the Valley's air operations is still unknown.
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FCYTravis
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RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:48 am

The eighth concourse at Goldwater Terminal 4 will become a US Airways concourse, for US Airways Express flights. Express ops will then be moved out of the international concourse, freeing up much-needed gates there. Apparently gate holds are common for inbound international flights, because there aren't enough sterile international gates.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
CRGsFuture
Posts: 513
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:04 pm

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:59 am

It is sad that I was never able to get to T2 yet, but hopefully if I get a SkyCap job with WN, or US on the side at JAX I can use some of those flight benefits.

Quoting Mah584jr:
I'm also very impressed with JFK's new train system between terminals. That airport is so expansive, and it's nice to see a convenient link between the terminals.

JFK isn't expansive, the opposite more like congested with terminals on top of each other hence why the idea of having what MCO with a CTA and airsides was a great idea but, as with the PANYNJ never get it done. The Air Train at JFK was built to avoid traffic congestion because of the distance between the terminals and how the lights back up everything.

So far its been a good idea but not as successful as EWR's Air Train however.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7563
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
Fond? I remember getting bumped off TW flights in T2 when that place was an aging, dated shithole. I won't miss it. It had zero amenities until a few short years ago, totally substandard in every way.

Terminal 2 was slated for closing several times in the early 90s after T4 opened and the economy and the airline industry took a belly flop. As a result of its future never really being certain T2 has never received an extensive overhaul like T3 saw in the late 90s and what T4 is undergoing right now (and boy does it ever need it, the parts that are done are so much better than the original areas). Instead its just been added onto bit by bit over the years, reaching its final state in the late 80s. It might have been wise if the City of Phoenix would have invested more in T2 in the past 15-20 years bringing it up to par with the newer terminals.

T2's greatest quality is the ease of use, but once it gets a bit crowded the ease of use goes out the window.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue May 02, 2006 4:11 am

Finally found an image of what the new terminal will look like! This came from the FAA document providing approval for the improvement plans.

Big version: Width: 991 Height: 681 File size: 154kb


This image also shows the realignment of Sky Harbor Blvd and the addition of the S1 concourse (construction to start this summer).

Some things from the plan which I found interesting:

1 - The international concourse on Terminal 4 will be US Airways only. All other carriers (BA, MX, AM) will move to a new international concourse in the west terminal.

2 - Concouse S1 (the Southwest side of T4) will be used be the US Airways Express concourse.

3 - Construction will start west of T2, which means all the airlines will move before T2 is demolished and also... that the West Economy Lot will be closed. I guess the parking crunch was bound to get worse anyways.
The GoodDoctor
 
ScottB
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue May 02, 2006 4:56 am

Given the size of the replacement for Terminal 2, I wonder if it might make sense to move Southwest out of Terminal 4 and into the new terminal, thus giving the entirety of T4 to US Airways and its codeshare partners. By the same token, it might make sense to just demolish one of the existing T4 concourses (perhaps N3 or S4) and rebuild it with expanded FIS facilities for T4, leaving the international carriers there along with US (this trades off a few gates for the potential of better connections from international carriers to US). AA, AS, CO, DL, and NW can all be accommodated in T3, and F9, B6, SY, HA, etc. can all join WN in the new terminal.

I believe this would give both US and WN room to grow at PHX if desired; seems like a win-win for both.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue May 02, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 20):
1 - The international concourse on Terminal 4 will be US Airways only. All other carriers (BA, MX, AM) will move to a new international concourse in the west terminal.

Are you suggesting that there will be two separate international facilities at PHX?

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 20):
2 - Concouse S1 (the Southwest side of T4) will be used be the US Airways Express concourse.

Since the S1 concourse has room for only 8 mainline narrowbody aircraft, it alone will not have sufficient space to house the entire US Airways Express operations. There would have to be some Express operations in N1 or somewhere else.
.......
 
thegooddoctor
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:12 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue May 02, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 22):
Are you suggesting that there will be two separate international facilities at PHX?

I'm not suggesting this - it's in fact written into the ADP and was approved by the FAA.

The reason for this type of move is that FIS facilities in T4 are limited in space due to their location and can not be expanded much more than they already are. As there is not much room for a great deal more increase in customs clearance capacity, the plan is to move the non-US Airways related traffic to the West Terminal.

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 22):
Since the S1 concourse has room for only 8 mainline narrowbody aircraft, it alone will not have sufficient space to house the entire US Airways Express operations. There would have to be some Express operations in N1 or somewhere else.

Well, remember 8 mainline narrowbodies equals closer to 16-20 CRJs and Dashes. Also, I imagine they'll also use remote parking ala the current arrangement at gates B18, B1, and B19. I used to work for Mesa at PHX and it was pretty common to park the aircraft 2-3 to a gate. I remember being very intimidated the first time I had to marshal a CRJ into gate B1  wink 
The GoodDoctor
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: New Terminal For Phoenix

Tue May 02, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 23):
As there is not much room for a great deal more increase in customs clearance capacity, the plan is to move the non-US Airways related traffic to the West Terminal.

That makes alot of sense....lets not forget WS and HA, which also puts major constraints on N4. I would think if LH were to ever start up PHX again, they would move in with US, thanks to Star Alliance.
.......

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