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zeke
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PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:26 pm

Any got further details of the FAA giving PK a hard time as their current 777 pilots have little ETOPS and North Atlantic experience.

Apparently they are scrambling for 777 rated pilots with ETOPS and North Atlantic experience.

(Source was from a 777 pilot who was considering this option.)
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
HS748
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:29 pm

I doubt that this is true given that PIA has been operating 777s across the Atlantic for two years.
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting HS748 (Reply 1):
I doubt that this is true given that PIA has been operating 777s across the Atlantic for two years.

Yes, just not sure with PK, they never liked following the rules, they have lost a lot of 777 guys to other airlines that pay more.

Understand that the FAA and UK CAA are still considering grounding PK over the landing of the 772LR at LHR on the world record flight, as the PK pilot who landed the aircraft was not rated on the aircraft, Capt Asif Raza, Senior Vice President Flight Operations, landed the FAA registered aircraft whilst holding a non FAA licence on the Boeing 747.

further info ... http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2005/17/index11.php.

Some further information on the crew problems ...

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Dis...6&file=World_News2006040913622.xml
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
MANmatt
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:43 pm

I know they are having some sort of problems as here at MAN we have just been handed issue 7, yes, number 7, of PIA's summer timetable for MAN, which now includeds the YYZ flights stopping in MAN again, along with the ORD, IAH and JFK flights which had to stop at MAN anyway. Not sure what the exact problems are at the moment though. Have been told it is related to the pilots not wanting to fly from LHE/KHI/ISB non-stop to YYZ, not sure how true that is though.

Matt
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
Understand that the FAA and UK CAA are still considering grounding PK over the landing of the 772LR at LHR on the world record flight, as the PK pilot who landed the aircraft was not rated on the aircraft, Capt Asif Raza, Senior Vice President Flight Operations, landed the FAA registered aircraft whilst holding a non FAA licence on the Boeing 747.

Really? Remember this was an experimental aircraft. If not having an endorsement on the aircraft were an issue, how is it possible for customer airline pilots to land the A380 as no one is rated on this aircraft as there are no certified versions.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 4):
Really? Remember this was an experimental aircraft. If not having an endorsement on the aircraft were an issue, how is it possible for customer airline pilots to land the A380 as no one is rated on this aircraft as there are no certified versions.

James is a little different, I think that who your referring to (the EK pilot who flew the aircraft at DXB, I am not sure if he landed it either). He holds a JAR licence (i.e. can fly a F registered aircraft), done a 380 rating in the sim at airbus (like similar people to himself from customer airlines), and DGAC approval for testing F registered airbus aircraft whilst he was with Sabena and Emirates. He had been involved with the acceptance flights for aircraft for both airlines, prior to his airline career I think he was also an F16 test pilot. In the RHS was an airbus test pilot who was the pilot in command.

With the 772LR flight, in the LHS you had Capt. Asif Abbas Reza and in the RHS Capt. Mohammed Ilyas Malik both with Pakistan issued licence flying a FAA registered aircraft - N6066Z. Capt. Malik does hold a 777 rating on his Pakistan licence, however I dont know how this allows him to fly a FAA registered aircraft, or for the Boeing test pilot who was in command not to be at the controls.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
With the 772LR flight, in the LHS you had Capt. Asif Abbas Reza and in the RHS Capt. Mohammed Ilyas Malik both with Pakistan issued licence flying a FAA registered aircraft - N6066Z. Capt. Malik does hold a 777 rating on his Pakistan licence, however I dont know how this allows him to fly a FAA registered aircraft, or for the Boeing test pilot who was in command not to be at the controls.

How is this different from the "dozens" of airline pilots Airbus says have landed the A380?

I think you will find this is standard practice for an airplane with an FAA Experimental Ticket and a Flight Demo endorsement. Both Airbus and Boeing do this sort of demo flying for customer airlines prior to airplane type cert. Both companies take their airplanes on sales tours and let customer pilots do complete flights, including landings. A company pilot is always occupying one of pilot seats during the demos.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
jacobin777
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):

further info ... http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2....php.

link didn't work....

Quoting Zeke (Reply 2):
Understand that the FAA and UK CAA are still considering grounding PK over the landing of the 772LR at LHR on the world record flight, as the PK pilot who landed the aircraft was not rated on the aircraft, Capt Asif Raza, Senior Vice President Flight Operations, landed the FAA registered aircraft whilst holding a non FAA licence on the Boeing 747

given the people who were on the plane while flight, if there was going to be a problem with Capt. Asif Raza, they probably wouldn't have let him assist in the landing...as there was a 777 pilot for SQ on the plane also..

not to mention......

"A representative from the U.S. National Aeronautics Association was on board to monitor the record flight. Official certification should come in the next several days. And the Guinness Book of World Records was also on hand to present a World Record certificate to our crew upon arrival in London."

as well as Boeing test pilot Randy Austin, Captain Suzanna Darcy-Hennemann the project leader and chief test pilot for the 777-200LR program, and John Cashman, director of flight-crew operations and chief pilot for Boeing
Commercial Airplanes

sources:
Boeing Media, Seattlepi.com

this will be a non-issue..
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
How is this different from the "dozens" of airline pilots Airbus says have landed the A380?

First I have heard of that, I knew Airbus had 40+ odd in house test pilots fly it, not customer airlines pilots, and they hold all the required JAR licences, and have gone throught A380 simulator training. As I also mentioned James is different, he has a JAR licence, medical, radio licence, instrument rating, and A380 zero flight training at Airbus, and dont forget that an Airbus pilot was always at the controls as well.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
A company pilot is always occupying one of pilot seats during the demos.

Yes as I pointed out, "in the LHS you had Capt. Asif Abbas Reza and in the RHS Capt. Mohammed Ilyas Malik both with Pakistan issued licence flying a FAA registered aircraft - N6066Z", neither was the PIC, neither was flying a on a FAA licence, neither is a Boeing pilot, neither with a FAA medical, neither with a FAA radio licence.

The FAA airman database can be searched here http://www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search/certs-pilot.html neither of them have any FAA certificates, even expired ones.

ICAO Annex 1 "Personnel Licensing", is very clear what is and is not allowed....

Quote:
2.1.1 General licensing specifications
2.1.1.1 A person shall not act either as pilot-in-command or as co-pilot of an aircraft in any of the following categories unless that person is the holder of a pilot licence issued in accordance with the provisions of this Chapter:
— aeroplane
— helicopter
— glider
— free balloon.

The way I see it, the following rules were broken,
Flying an aircraft without a licence
Flying an aircraft without a medical
Flying an aircraft IFR without an instrument rating
Flying an aircraft without a type rating
Operating a radio without a flight radio telephone licence.
Boeing giving training to a pilot on a FAA registered aircraft above 12500lb to students without holding security clearances.

If this was an instructional flight, under what FAA regulation was the training conducted ? Under what FAA regulation is an instructor not required to be at the controls ? Under what FAA regulation are passengers allowed to be carried during training ?

I can think of cases where pilots have lost their licences when they allowed non licenced pilots to manupulate the aircraft.

Technically, I believe they PK pilots were conducting unauthoried interferance to an aircraft, which is know as hijack for short.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
link didn't work....

Thanks, amazing what an extra full stop at the end makes.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2005/17/index11.php should work.

Sorry I dont buy it, its a question of national soverenty, the FAA only allow FAA certified airman to fly FAA registered aircraft.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jacobin777
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2005/17/index11.php should work.

Sorry I dont buy it, its a question of national soverenty, the FAA only allow FAA certified airman to fly FAA registered aircraft.

thanks for the link...interesting indeed..

"When contacted, the PIA spokesperson maintained that Captain was well authorised to guide the airplane. But he was not in command all the time."

.I think his license might be cancelled..but not too much else....(aka-such as what happened with the SQ and BA pilots)...
"Up the Irons!"
 
trex8
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:20 pm

maybe this is part of Boeings new cross crew qualification between 777s and 747s! Big grin
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 6):
How is this different from the "dozens" of airline pilots Airbus says have landed the A380?

First I have heard of that, I knew Airbus had 40+ odd in house test pilots fly it, not customer airlines pilots, and they hold all the required JAR licences, and have gone throught A380 simulator training.

The following link has this quote:

“The first customer airline pilots flew the aircraft after the Dubai air show when we had eleven Emirates pilots – including three who had never flown an Airbus – fly two touch– and goes each at Ras Al Khaimah,” says Lelaie.


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...powers+on+through+flight-test.html

I doubt that the pilots who had never flown an Airbus before had any simulator time on the A380.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
The way I see it, the following rules were broken,
Flying an aircraft without a licence
Flying an aircraft without a medical
Flying an aircraft IFR without an instrument rating
Flying an aircraft without a type rating
Operating a radio without a flight radio telephone licence.
Boeing giving training to a pilot on a FAA registered aircraft above 12500lb to students without holding security clearances.

From past dealings with Boeing and their policies on who can fly their experimental aircraft, I doubt that any of these rules were broken. Boeing itself would have checked to see that Items 1,2,3,5 & 6 were satsfied. Item 4 cannot be an issue since the aircraft was Experimental and no one could be type rated on it.

I think you need to consider your source.

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2005/17/index11.php

It appears to make a lot of unsubstanciated claims and seems to have a political/labor issues axe to grind.

I can easliy spot at least one error from my understanding of the flight. There was no EK pilot on the airplane, but there was one from SQ.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
The following link has this quote:

“The first customer airline pilots flew the aircraft after the Dubai air show when we had eleven Emirates pilots – including three who had never flown an Airbus – fly two touch– and goes each at Ras Al Khaimah,” says Lelaie.

The same was done at the singapore airshow, the customer airline pilots were onboard, not actually flying the aircraft.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
From past dealings with Boeing and their policies on who can fly their experimental aircraft, I doubt that any of these rules were broken. Boeing itself would have checked to see that Items 1,2,3,5 & 6 were satsfied. Item 4 cannot be an issue since the aircraft was Experimental and no one could be type rated on it.

As far as I know, only one 777 type rating exists, covers all models.

The original plan was to have a Boeing pilot in the RHS, in the end two PIA pilots were at the controls.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/247674_longflight10.html "Boeing's director of flight crew operations, John Cashman, will be the co-pilot for the landing.", this did not end up happening.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
I can easliy spot at least one error from my understanding of the flight. There was no EK pilot on the airplane, but there was one from SQ.

The same orgainisation also said an SQ pilot was onboard in another article

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/nov-2005/11/nationalnews9.php

from http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/longestflight/

Quote:
PIlots:

Capt. Suzanna Darcy-Hennemann, 777-200LR project pilot
Capt. Frank Santoni, chief 777 program pilot
Capt. John Cashman, director of flight test operations and chief test pilot
Capt. Randy Austin, lead 777 . production test pilot

Additional passengers: Total passenger and crew count is 35, including additional crew, media, Boeing executives, airline representatives and program partners.



Is it not feasable that amongst the 35, was a EK pilot ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
The following link has this quote:

“The first customer airline pilots flew the aircraft after the Dubai air show when we had eleven Emirates pilots – including three who had never flown an Airbus – fly two touch– and goes each at Ras Al Khaimah,” says Lelaie.

The same was done at the singapore airshow, the customer airline pilots were onboard, not actually flying the aircraft

How can you read the FI quote and say the Emirates pilots did not fly the A380 or do the touch-and-goes? It seems pretty clear.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 12):
Is it not feasable that amongst the 35, was a EK pilot ?

Nope, I've spoken to some of the Boeing pilots involved since we've begun this dialog. There was no Emirates pilot onboard.

Until the FAA or the Pakistan CAA takes some action, I'd mark this whole supposed "violation" down as "Not Proven".
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 13):
How can you read the FI quote and say the Emirates pilots did not fly the A380 or do the touch-and-goes? It seems pretty clear.

James did fly the aircraft, he works for EK, I suppose you read that sentance to say 22 touch and go landings were made (which would take around 4+ hours alone depending on traffic), I read that to mean 2 were made, with a total 11 EK pilots onboard. Two T&G and the transit to DXB would be over an hour flight, which is similar to what was done at SIN. In SIN similar happened, customer airline pilots had tours and flights on the aircraft, however I am not aware of any to "fly it".

You certantly like going off topic dont you......you twisted a thread about the PK pilot problems into an EK A380 pilot thread, well done.

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 13):
Until the FAA or the Pakistan CAA takes some action, I'd mark this whole supposed "violation" down as "Not Proven".

You forgot the UK CAA, it was in their airspace the reported violations were made.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 14):
Two T&G and the transit to DXB would be over an hour flight, which is similar to what was done at SIN. In SIN similar happened, customer airline pilots had tours and flights on the aircraft, however I am not aware of any to "fly it".

You certantly like going off topic dont you......you twisted a thread about the PK pilot problems into an EK A380 pilot thread, well done.

If your interpretation is correct, why mention that three of the EK pilots had never flown an Airbus airplane before? Did they mean never flown as passengers? I think that the more logical conclusion is that they had never piloted an Airbus airplane before but had no problem landing the A380.

I think I was staying on topic. You indicated that it was illegal for a customer pilot to land a manufacturer's experimental airplane. My point is that it is a common practice and the A380 pilot demo at Emirates is an example of the practice.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 14):
You forgot the UK CAA, it was in their airspace the reported violations were made.

Fine, we'll wait for the UK CAA to take action as well. Until then, it's still "Not Proven" to use the Scots' law phrase.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
trex8
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 15):
I think I was staying on topic. You indicated that it was illegal for a customer pilot to land a manufacturer's experimental airplane. My point is that it is a common practice and the A380 pilot demo at Emirates is an example of the practice.

the problem seems to be, if there is a problem at all, that the pilot did not have a FAA licence. One could argue about whether one needs a type rating on an experimental plane but you need to have at least a licence from the authorities of the nation where the plane is registered. perhaps the A380 pilots from customer airlines had JAA approved licences or perhaps the JAA don't give a damn but the FAA does!.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 16):
the problem seems to be, if there is a problem at all, that the pilot did not have a FAA licence. One could argue about whether one needs a type rating on an experimental plane but you need to have at least a licence from the authorities of the nation where the plane is registered.

If this were so, it sure would eliminate at lot of airline demos. How could Airbus do a company A320 demo (EASA registry) or Boeing do a company 737 demo (FAA registry) in Australia for domestic pilots (Australian tickets)?

It's never been an issue in the past. I'll believe it's an issue when any one of the three agencies take action.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 15):
Fine, we'll wait for the UK CAA to take action as well. Until then, it's still "Not Proven" to use the Scots' law phrase.

I contacted a friend of mine in BA, he made cotact with the UK CAA, he got a rather swift response from them.

Except of the UK CAA respose....

Boeing 777-200LR N6066Z
Landed at LHR on November 10 2005

Dear XXXXXXXXXX,

Thank you for your email dated XXXXXXXX.

This aircraft was the subject of a series of applications for Exemption to operate without an ICAO Certificate of Airworthiness. One of these was Exemption ref EO-05-391, which covered the date of operation you refer to. All requirements for the issue of this Exemption were met. The issue of the Exemption is for airworthiness purposes only.

We rely upon the State of Registry to ensure that flight crew licensing requirements are met, and your queries related to the pilots' qualifications are therefore a matter for the FAA.

Regards

XXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX
Corporate Affairs
Safety Regulation Group
UK CAA
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
N1120A
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:35 pm

Don't FAA certified US pilots fly aircraft for Cathay, Emirates, etc. all the time? Particularly when you consider the airplane was an experimental aircraft at that point, I really don't see the country of origin being an issue.
Additionally, here is some precedent. All pilots that fly for Mexican carriers must be Mexican citizens, flying on Mexican certificates under Mexican law. Now, several of their aircraft are leased from one of the big Irish leasing firms and carry EI registrations. Now, I am sure they didn't go to Dublin to get a check ride before flying the aircraft.
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Don't FAA certified US pilots fly aircraft for Cathay, Emirates, etc. all the time? Particularly when you consider the airplane was an experimental aircraft at that point, I really don't see the country of origin being an issue.

CX pilots all hold Hong Kong licences, EK UAE etc etc. The point being the PIA pilots have never held FAA licences, the FAA airman database is available for anyone to search.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Now, several of their aircraft are leased from one of the big Irish leasing firms and carry EI registrations. Now, I am sure they didn't go to Dublin to get a check ride before flying the aircraft.

The will all hold JAR/Irish licences in some form, otherwise as well as being illegal, they also would not be covered by insurance.

Pilots must have licences from the country of the aircraft registration, not from the country they were born, or are living, based etc. In Mexico I think you will find Irish, French, American, and Mexican registered airlines flying for Mexican carriers, a Mexican pilots licence will only cover you to fly a Mexican registered aircraft.

Similar restrictions apply to maintenance personnel.

As far are doing checks go, they could do the check in a simulator basically anywhere in the world as long as the simulator and check pilot has been approved by the Authorities, e.g. you can do checks for a UK licence in some of the simulators in Hong Kong with a UK TRE. I think JAR approved simulators are based in Miami as well.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 18):
This aircraft was the subject of a series of applications for Exemption to operate without an ICAO Certificate of Airworthiness. One of these was Exemption ref EO-05-391, which covered the date of operation you refer to. All requirements for the issue of this Exemption were met. The issue of the Exemption is for airworthiness purposes only.

We rely upon the State of Registry to ensure that flight crew licensing requirements are met, and your queries related to the pilots' qualifications are therefore a matter for the FAA.

Thanks Zeke. It appears this is a non-issue.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 21):
Thanks Zeke. It appears this is a non-issue.

All it says is the pilot licence question has to be made to the FAA.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
N1120A
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
The point being the PIA pilots have never held FAA licences, the FAA airman database is available for anyone to search.

Then again, they were flying an experimental aircraft. I am sure Boeing was well aware of any regulations before allowing them to fly.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 20):
The will all hold JAR/Irish licences in some form, otherwise as well as being illegal, they also would not be covered by insurance.

Pilots must have licences from the country of the aircraft registration, not from the country they were born, or are living, based etc. In Mexico I think you will find Irish, French, American, and Mexican registered airlines flying for Mexican carriers, a Mexican pilots licence will only cover you to fly a Mexican registered aircraft.

Do you have a way to prove that? Is there a JAA/Irish database similar to the N reg one?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
All it says is the pilot licence question has to be made to the FAA.

Then let's wait for FAA action. They issued the Exemption for the flight.

No Action = No Issue
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Do you have a way to prove that? Is there a JAA/Irish database similar to the N reg one?

Its a ICAO Annex 1 Personnel Licensing requirement.

Quote:
1.2.1 Authority to act as a flight crew member

A person shall not act as a flight crew member of an aircraft unless a valid licence is held showing compliance with the specifications of this Annex and appropriate to the duties to be performed by that person. The licence shall have been issued by the State of Registry of that aircraft or by any other Contracting State and rendered valid by the State of Registry of that aircraft.



Quote:
2.1.3.2 Type ratings shall be established for:

a) each type of aircraft certificated for operation with a minimum crew of at least two pilots;
b) each type of helicopter certificated for single-pilot operation except where a class rating has been issued under 2.1.3.1.1; and
c) any type of aircraft whenever considered necessary by the Licensing Authority.



Quote:
2.1.4 Circumstances in which class and type ratings are required

2.1.4.1 A Contracting State having issued a pilot licence shall not permit the holder of such licence to act either as pilot in command or as co-pilot of an aeroplane or helicopter unless the holder has received authorization as follows:
a) the appropriate class rating specified in 2.1.3.1; or
b) a type rating when required in accordance with the provisions of 2.1.3.2.

We know the person who was in the Captains seat, and acting as the aircraft commander did not have a FAA licence, or a 777 type rating, the co-pilot did have the 777 rating, however not a FAA licence.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
We know the person who was in the Captains seat, and acting as the aircraft commander did not have a FAA licence, or a 777 type rating, the co-pilot did have the 777 rating, however not a FAA licence.

Since you are convinced there was a violation, will you be filing a complaint?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
N1120A
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
We know the person who was in the Captains seat, and acting as the aircraft commander did not have a FAA licence, or a 777 type rating, the co-pilot did have the 777 rating, however not a FAA licence.

I have an add-on question then. Given that when you do your training in another country, your FAA/JAA/Whatever license is only valid when taken together with your license of training (I looked up some FAA licenses based in Mexico, and this was the case) and it is your license of training that actually governs your ability to fly, the other being a translation and authorization to fly aircraft of that country's registry, is it possible that the 777 rated pilot was given an exemption for the flight? Also, since there was an N licensed Boeing check pilot on the airplane with them and a 777 rated pilot in the right seat, wouldn't that be considered enough for a training flight?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
I have an add-on question then. Given that when you do your training in another country, your FAA/JAA/Whatever license is only valid when taken together with your license of training (I looked up some FAA licenses based in Mexico, and this was the case) and it is your license of training that actually governs your ability to fly, the other being a translation and authorization to fly aircraft of that country's registry, is it possible that the 777 rated pilot was given an exemption for the flight?

It would be possible for the FAA to grant the co-pilot a FAA validation of the Pakistan CAA issued licence, however my experience of such in the past requires a FAA medical.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Also, since there was an N licensed Boeing check pilot on the airplane with them and a 777 rated pilot in the right seat, wouldn't that be considered enough for a training flight?

I dont know what FAA training authority Boeing is certified to do, the FSB simulator training authority would not cover aircraft based training unless it was done in accordance with teh FSB approval, with FSB approved instructors. I had a look at the FAA airman database, does not seem to have been a CFI onboard that flight, not all the Boeing pilots had class 1 medicals either. One of the Boeing pilots is a certified "Ground Instructor".

Also it is not normal to carry 35 passengers about on a training flight.
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N1120A
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 28):
I dont know what FAA training authority Boeing is certified to do

I would assume they have full training authority, given that their pilots have to train others to fly the aircraft after testing.
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A319XFW
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 14):
James did fly the aircraft, he works for EK, I suppose you read that sentance to say 22 touch and go landings were made (which would take around 4+ hours alone depending on traffic), I read that to mean 2 were made, with a total 11 EK pilots onboard.

AFAIK, all pilots did the touch-and-goes.
Other customer pilots have flown the A380, too.
For example there is a LH pilot seconded to the flight test team in TLS.

[Edited 2006-04-18 20:25:31]
 
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
I would assume they have full training authority, given that their pilots have to train others to fly the aircraft after testing.

You sure ? What does FSB/Alteon do then ?
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 28):
Also it is not normal to carry 35 passengers about on a training flight.

Again, there has to be a law that allows it, or if the law does not allow it, this precise flight was granted an exemption by the services in charge of taking care of this law. This is not a real training flight though, but rather a demo flight, and in this case, exemptions might be possible (assumption). Boeing knows the FAA regulations and cares about it, AFAIK... Otherwise, they would register their test a/c in Angola, Sudan or D R of Congo or wherever else around that part of the globe...
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zeke
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RE: PK 777 Crew Problems

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 32):
Again, there has to be a law that allows it, or if the law does not allow it, this precise flight was granted an exemption by the services in charge of taking care of this law.

That would be FAR 91.317 (j)
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar