MaxQ2351
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Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:37 am

Hey all,

Sorry if there has already been a thread on this.....I couldn't dig anything up on any of the 3 aircraft though. Anyhow, I have a 3-part question.

First, the 707-300C had a pair of exits just aft of the wing root, as seen below:

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Photo © Art Brett - Photovation Images


However, the AA 707-323C's don't appear to have these exits. Are they just not marked, or were they an option by Boeing that AA didn't want, or what??

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


Second, United's DC-8's. In the first photo, you can see N8097U (as a -61) with two emergency exits just aft of the wing, but in the second photo, you see N8097U (this time as a -71), with one of the exits removed. Does anyone know why United decided to remove the second exit???

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © Andy Martin - AirTeamImages


Finally, United's 727's. United took delivery of three different batches of 727's if I'm not mistaking, and they were respectively registered as N76**U, N72**U, and N74**U. The "76" series was delivered with an extra exit just forward of the wing root. I've never seen another example outside of United with these exits, so I assume it was a custom modification United requested that Boeing incorporate. However, as seen in the second photo of N7645U below, the exits have been removed, although you can clearly tell where it was because of the slight gap in the windows forward of the wing. So, my last question: why would United request a custom modification, which I'm sure cost quite a bit more, only to later remove it from all their aircraft??

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Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography
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-Max
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Alitalia744
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:44 am

Probably all capacity related...more doors, more exit rows needed.
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Mainliner
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:56 am

I read somewhere that United was anticipating an evacuation regulation that never came to pass or was changed. Because of this, they had the extra exits installed on their 722's (either themselves or by Boeing). I'm assuming the same holds true for the DC-8's.
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carduelis
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:09 am

The two exits each side on a 707 are defined as 'over wing' exits and as such are over the wing . . . You won't see them on the second pic as the wing obscures the area above . . . but they will be there!

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jetjack74
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Thread starter):
However, the AA 707-323C's don't appear to have these exits. Are they just not marked, or were they an option by Boeing that AA didn't want, or what??

This was because the 707-300/400 was designed with configuration of 189-194 passengers in a mixed class layout. However some carriers configured their aircraft with 219 in a one class/hig density config. This higher capacity required additional exits with is why the the exit aft of the wing was added to some models. Also, airlines like NWA, TAP, MEA and a few others operated their 707's as combi aircraft. in the fwd section. IATA rules also required 2 exits to be available when cargo was carried on the main deck to replace doors 1L/1R which became inaccessible when the cargo divider was installed. It was an option on 707B's, ut required on 707C's that intende to carry both cargo and passengers on the main deck.

Now, as far as the 727's with the extra door, that was to satisfy a requirement made by the FAA/NTSB for UAL to configure these 10 727's in a high-density configuration. Thes 727's were seated for 175 in an all-coach layout. ORD-DCA, LGA in the late 1960's.
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CRJ900
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:00 pm

I love seeing pics of the DC8-61/63 aircraft, how beautiful they were... I was lucky enough to fly on the DC8-63 in 1982.

The LH pic of the DC8 shows it with 14 exits altogheter then, that's a LOT! Scanair had 12 exits for 252 seats when I flew them. And Sterling Airways flew 182 pax in their B727-200s with 8 exits (plus the rear exit with the integrated stairs), so the FAA rules must have been relaxed over the years...

I believe the exits with the cabin windows are Type II exits (entrance doors are Type I and o/w exits are Type III), and sadly we don't see them on new airliners these days... they disappeared with the DC8 and B727, which is a shame as they offered a proper window for the 2-3 seats by the doors. The pidgeon-hole on the A321 exits is just ridiculous...
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jetjack74
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Thread starter):
Second, United's DC-8's. In the first photo, you can see N8097U (as a -61) with two emergency exits just aft of the wing, but in the second photo, you see N8097U (this time as a -71), with one of the exits removed. Does anyone know why United decided to remove the second exit???

These exits were sealed in order to cut down on having to maintain exits that weren't required, used or were uneeded. Door seals are to be checked every 200-300 replaced every 600-700 flight hours. Sealing the redundant exit plug-doors eliminates the need for maintaining these which reduces costs. Freight carriers do this when they convert pax aircraft to cargo. They seal exit doors that aren't going to be used. UA, DL and ONA, who were the only "passenger" carriers to re-engine their 61 and 63 series DC8's, aimed to maximise their cost savings through all equations, not just by re-engining them.
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cedarjet
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:17 pm

For another exit anomoly, check out Dan-Air's 727-100s. They had an extra exit retrofitted at the command of the CAA in the UK, at the back immediately ahead of the nos 1 & 3 engines. Looks like a -200 that's had a few frames removed. Far out.

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aa777223er
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 5):
and sadly we don't see them on new airliners these days... they disappeared with the DC8 and B727

Actually, type II exits are on many 757/767 models, and are standard on the 757-300. If you see a 757/767 without overwing exits, then they will have a set of type II exits just aft of the wings.

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CRJ900
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting AA777223ER (Reply 8):
Actually, type II exits are on many 757/767 models, and are standard on the 757-300. If you see a 757/767 without overwing exits, then they will have a set of type II exits just aft of the wings.

Very true, however, I was referring to the Type II with a full-size cabin window, like the DC8 and 727 had.  

Perhaps Boeing will put in a cabin window on their new extra exits on the B737-900ER... (crossing fingers)

[Edited 2006-04-16 20:55:08]
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MaxQ2351
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Perhaps Boeing will put in a cabin window on their new extra exits on the B737-900ER... (crossing fingers)

It would be nice but it doesn't look like they are going to though!!
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:24 am


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Photo © Howard Chaloner



BA took the overwing exit out of use on their 747-136 and 747-236B aircraft, partly because the capacity meant the five exits per side were not required. If you look at the picture on the left of G-BDXC you can see the white outline highlighting the exit over the wing breaks into the blue belly. On the picture on the right you can see the same aircraft with the overwing exit not in use - red Speedwing is unbroken over the wing.
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milesrich
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:27 am

N7597A, a 707-323C, did have the large aft of the wing, emergency exit window doors, but they were sealed by American. Below is a link to a picture of the aircraft after it was transferred to ATA, and you can see the exits, are there, but deactivated.

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=446313

United's 727-222's lead sleds had the same type of exits at row 8 in coach when they were first introduced, but the exits were deactivated before the aircraft were taken out of service by UA and scrapped in the mid-90's.
 
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:30 am

The N7620U through N7647U 727-222's were ordered with the extra exit at row 8 after the UA 727-22 crash at SLC in November of 1965. Had that aircraft had additional exits, the number of deaths would have been much fewer, and if Gale C. Kehmeier had stuck with DC-6's, the accident wouldn't have happened.
 
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Thread starter):
Sorry if there has already been a thread on this.....I couldn't dig anything up on any of the 3 aircraft though.

Regarding your UA 727 question, I typed in "727 exits" and searched Civil Aviation archived and found the following threads that have addressed this topic.

Interesting: United 727-200s With An Extra Exit? This was listed 3 months ago...
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/2541502/6/#ID2541502

United Boeing 727-200's With 11 Emergency Exits?
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1146381/6/#ID1146381

Little Known Fact About (UA's) 727
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ation/read.main/887973/6/#ID887973

UAL 727-200's
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/1146634/6/#ID1146634
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RE: Exit Doors On DC-8, 707, 727 (pics)

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:04 pm

I read the other posts, and all that stuff about high density flights. The 727-222 was configured in a two class cabin. These aircraft were used system wide. Introduced in 1968, most cities on the East West routes saw them throughout the 70's. For example, I lived in MLI which didn't see 72S service until 1969. In 1970, the aircraft was regularly scheduled on a DEN-DSM-MLI turn. From about that time until deregulation, UA operated another flight LAX-OMA-MLI-ORD with this aircraft, the flight number was 168 eastbound, and left LAX everyday at about 11 am. The extra exits as demanded by United's Chairman and Founder, Pat Patterson, after the accident at Salt Lake. While there may have been a few aircraft used in an all coach config for a short period of time, the all coach California Commuter 727 was a 727-22, not a stretch. For most of the time the aircraft operated with the extra exits, at least one of the seats in Row 8 was used for a flight attendant, and a sign was sewn into seat cushion designating same. I flew on just about every one of these aircraft during the years 1973-1976, and not one was ever all coach. The extra exits weren't deactivated until the 1980's. UA had all coach 727-22, DC-8-52's and DC-8-61's, the Eights being used as charter aircraft and equipment substitutions.