aviationfreak
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Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:34 pm

For a while now I know that NZ for example have their 744 fleet equiped with 2 different types of engines. I believe 4 of them have RR engines and I'm not sure about the engine type of the other 4. The only thing I do know is that the other 4 are equiped with the same engines as their 763 fleet is. I do know half their 744 fleet is leased. Are these the 744's with RR engines? So maybe they've never done maintenance on these ones themselfs but was it all part of the lease deal.

Anyways. Personaly I don't think this is efficient maintenance wise.
But I also noticed EK has a fleet of 773's with both the RR trends and GE90's. Also I thought QF their 744 fleet had all RR engines but recently I saw a QF 744 with a different engine type.
There must be a good reason because I don't think airlines these days like to waste money on maintenance. Has it anything to do with the fact some airlines need the capacity quick and can't wait for a certain a/c type with a certain engine type being delivered?

Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Thanks in advance and kind regards.

Sander
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AirbusA6
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:39 pm

The QF 747ERs are GE powered, but then the RB211 wasn't certified on this variant. It could be considered illogical that QF operated GE 767s and RR 747s, but maybe they prefer to keep the manufacturers keen - they ordered GE A330s and RR A380s!

The EK 773A models are RR, but the 773ER models are exclusively GE. Similarly CX operate RR 773A models and have ordered the GE 773ER as well.

I believe the other NZ 744s are GE powered
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767-332ER
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:41 pm

It has a great deal to do on what was offered at the time of purchase. You might notice BA with their GE90's powered 777-A's. They swapped to the Trent's later on.

DL is a prime example with their 763 fleet. They initially ordered the ER's with PW's and then swapped to the CF6's.

QF is also a carrier where you could see a number of 763's acquired from BA which were powered by the RB211's. QF's fleet primarily was powered by GE.

It is a combination on availability and what sort of deal they might receive from the engine manufacturers.
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ehho
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 2):
QF is also a carrier where you could see a number of 763's acquired from BA which were powered by the RB211's. QF's fleet primarily was powered by GE.

Same goes, I believe, for AA's varying 757s and 767s, some their own, some inherited from TW.
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
For a while now I know that NZ for example have their 744 fleet equiped with 2 different types of engines. I believe 4 of them have RR engines and I'm not sure about the engine type of the other 4

4x B744s are RR
4x B744s are GE
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jetjack74
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:05 pm

Here at NWA, we had our 21 original PW-powered DC10-40's, augmented by 24 GE-powered DC10-30's
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747ENG
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:25 pm

Try working for a Non scheduled carrier like Air Atlanta. We had 747-100/200 and 300 at the time, they now have -400 now.

At the time we had 747-100/200 with P & W JT9D
747-200 with RB211-524C
747-300 with CF6-80C2

Any one of those could come to the gate on any day

A lot to do with availability of aircraft at the time of requirement. 2nd tier operators dont have choices

Extra training for crews and engineeers and not all are qualified to fly or certify on all types and additional parts inventory required etc etc

bit of a pain really
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:29 pm

BA operated 747-200's with both PW and RR engines. During the merger period with BCAL, they also operated a handful of GE powered 747's but were disposed of shortly after due to serious commonality issues.
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ehho
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:40 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 7):
G-CITA
G-CITB
G-CITC
G-CITD

According to Airfleets, BCal had 6 747s, all of which went to BA, but were promptly sold off indeed. Their rego's were
G-BDPZ
G-BJXN
G-HUGE (funny one)
G-GLYN
G-NIGB
G-CITB
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jetjack74
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 8):
G-BDPZ
G-BJXN
G-HUGE (funny one)
G-GLYN
G-NIGB
G-CITB

Right that was it. There were a few combi's that were operated by BA but spent quite a few years leased out. These 2 were leased on and off to MEA, but were owned and operated by BA on and off
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:19 am

Don't forget UPS. Their 757 fleet is nearly divided in half with one half powered by PWs & the other half powered by RRs.
American inherited 27 757s from TWA with PWs. They are being phased out now once their individual leases are up. The PWs 767s were never really merged into AA's fleet. They were simply parked. Regards.
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bomber996
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:33 am

The New US has a fleet of A320's and A319's that have different engines. The old US ones have CFM, and the old HP's have IAE.

Peace  box 

[Edited 2006-04-16 18:33:59]
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:34 am

MyTravel have A320's with both CFM56 and IAE V2500 engines, as well as A321's with (I believe) CFM56's.
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jetjack74
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 8):
According to Airfleets, BCal had 6 747s, all of which went to BA, but were promptly sold off indeed. Their rego's were
G-BDPZ
G-BJXN
G-HUGE (funny one)
G-GLYN
G-NIGB
G-CITB

Some of the oddball generic 747's BA operated over the years other than the RR-powered 747's and PW powered 100's
Former LH 747-230, G-BJXN PWJT9

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Former SAS 747-283B. Picked up by BA in January of 1984 for Airtours. Wore the reg G-BMGS

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Photo © Pedro Aragão


Former and on and off MEA 747-2B4, G-BLVE

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Photo © Pedro Aragão


Part of the BCAL fleet, former Wardair 747-211 G-GLYN

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


Former BCAL 747, G-CITB formerly of RJ.

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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


BLVE's siter ship from MEA.

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Photo © Johan Ljungdahl



BOAC/BA also operated the 707 with 2 different engines. The RR Conway powered 436's

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Photo © Howard Chaloner


and the PWJT3C-powered 336's

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Photo © GAAEC

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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:37 am

Etihad A330-200s:

A330-243s
A6-EYD / YE / YF / YG
RR Trent

A330-223s
A6-EYA / YB / YX
GE

A330-202s
A6-EYV / YW
PW

EY basically leased whatever they could get their hands on at first, but once the leased TAM and ex-Volare aircraft are gone, they will be RR Trents as standard.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Here at NWA, we had our 21 original PW-powered DC10-40's, augmented by 24 GE-powered DC10-30's

Arguably, NW is one of P and W's best and most loyal customers, in fact, they are the only opperator of PW powered 757-300s. Douglas only ever offered the longer range DC-10-30 with the GE CF6, so they were stuck in it. They were already comitted to the DC-10, so they just had to deal with it.

Ironically however, While nearly the whole NW fleet is PW, their every growing A319/A320 fleet is CFM powered, rather than IAE (which is 50% PW).

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 11):
The New US has a fleet of A320's and A319's that have different engines. The old US ones have CFM, and the old HP's have IAE.

I wonder what they'll do about the IAE powered A320/A319s. They still fly a lot of CFM powered 737s as well.
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Stitch
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
Anyways. Personaly I don't think this is efficient maintenance wise...There must be a good reason because I don't think airlines these days like to waste money on maintenance. Has it anything to do with the fact some airlines need the capacity quick and can't wait for a certain a/c type with a certain engine type being delivered?

It's probably a combination of many factors:

  • For leased or pre-owned aircraft, you may have to take the engine that is hanging on the wings.
  • Certain models come with exclusive powerplants (GE on the 773ER/772LR and RR on the A345/A346).
  • "Power by the hour" or other service contracts that greatly reduces the up-front costs of operating a new engine type (such as spares and cross-training).
  • Performance - a newer engine family might give better range or economics then older ones in use on older planes.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
Has it anything to do with the fact some airlines need the capacity quick and can't wait for a certain a/c type with a certain engine type being delivered?

That sounds like what HA did recently. Their 763ER fleet are powered by P&W, but the 4 recently purchased ex-DL 763s are GE powered. I believe they were having trouble finding P&W 763s and at favorable terms. The GE 763s will allow HA to expand existing routes or create new ones from the west coast to Hawaii to remain competitive as well as allowing the airline to shift some of the P&W 763ERs to current (and future) longer ranged routes. IIRC, the CEO admitted in a letter to employees discussed on this board a while back that "beggars can't be choosey" or something to the like.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:33 am

The sitution with QF is relatively simple, if you look at it over time. All B747-438 have RR engines. When they introduced the B767-338s they chose GE engines for what ever reason, maybe the RR wre not offered at the time or cost to much or whatever.

Move forward in time a decade and half or so and QF is looking for more lift. They aquire 3 B744 from MH & OZ, which have GE engines as they were the best they could find, BUT the GE engines on the 744 are the same type as on the 763 (differnt dash numbers) so its not a new engine type for the airline.

A bit further on and they need more medium haul lift and they lease 7 B767-336s from BA which have RR engines, but again the same basic type as QFs B744s so again its not a new engine type.

Moving on again an QF finally persude Boeing to build them some B747-438ERs, which are only offered with GE engines. Again the same basic type as they already have on 767s and 744s so again its not a new engine type.

While it is good to have only one engine type, sometimes it just does not work out, especially over the long run.

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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:47 am

CI has PW on all but 4 of their 744s, the 4 new 744s are GE powered.
Also, IIRC, all off CI's 744Fs are GE powered.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
Ironically however, While nearly the whole NW fleet is PW, their every growing A319/A320 fleet is CFM powered, rather than IAE (which is 50% PW).

Because at the time when the A320 was offered to us as the US launch customer, the CFM56 engines were the only ones available. The V25000 were still a year away and not yet certified. They were also cheaper, and not worth the wait. So we went the GE's.
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
IAE (which is 50% PW)

In your dreams! PW and RR have 32.5% each. Japanese Aero Engines Corporation has 23% and MTU 12%.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:12 pm

Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
NZ for example have their 744 fleet equiped with 2 different types of engines



Quoting Aviationfreak (Thread starter):
EK has a fleet of 773's with both the RR trends and GE90's

It's important to distinguish between such cases. In the first, NZ has different engines on the same model of aeroplane. In the second EK is flying two very different versions of the 777-300.

There are various reasons why airlines have more than one engine option on what is, or may appear to be, the same model of plane.

1. Changing horses in mid-stream. In some ways, this is the most interesting. An airline buys x copies of a model with AA engines but a few years later orders another batch of the same model with the competing BB engines. The reasons for the change will vary from customer to customer.

EXAMPLES: *UPS put PW2000s on the first half of their 757-200APF fleet but RB211-535s on the second half. *NZ (above) initially ordered RB211-524s for their 747-400s but then switched to CF6s. *Cargolux chose CF6s for their 747-400Fs but then switched to RB211-524s.

2. Changing horses because that's what is available. An airline has a fleet of planes with AA engines. They want a couple more. New builds will cost a lot and take time to deliver but there are used (or built but not delivered) planes available much sooner. However, they have BB engines.

EXAMPLES: *SAA had 6 747-400s with RR and wanted two more. Boeing had two 747-400s built (I think for Philippines?) but never delivered - but they had GE engines. SAA took them nonetheless. This wasn't a conscious decision to switch engines but simply a trade-off between availabilty, cost and commonality. *QF also have three GE-powered 747-400s in their otherwise RR-powered 747-400 fleet. Three used planes (one ex-Asiana and two ex-Malaysia) became available and they took them.

3. Different engines on different sub-types. An airline flies a fleet of XXX-200s with AA engines. They then add XXX-300s or -200ERs or -200IGWs or whatever and switch to BB engines. These may superficially appear to be the "same" model but they are not.

EXAMPLES: *JAL put PW4000s on their 777-200s. When they came to order 777-200ERs, however, they chose GE. *QF's 747-400s (with the exception of the three mentioned above) have RR but they ordered GE for their 747-400ERs.

4. Models where there is no choice of engines. An airline flies a fleet of XXX-200s with AA engines. The manufacturer then brings out a bigger/better version but it is only available with BB engines.

EXAMPLES: *The obvious example is the 777-300ER which is only available with GE. *EK have 777-300s with RR and 777-300ERs with GE. *So do Cathay Pacific. *ANA have 777-300s with PW and 777-300ERs with GE. *So do JAL.

5. Fleets inherited through takeovers. An airline has AA engines on its fleet of XXX but then takes over another airline which also flies the XXX but uses BB engines.

EXAMPLES: *AA has RR on its 757-200s. When it took over TWA it inherited TWA's fleet of PW-powered airlines and so now flies both. *Air Canada had PW on its 767s and 747s but when it took over Canadian it inherited GE-powered fleets of the same types. *The merger of America West and US Airways gives the new airline a mixed fleet of A320s with both CFM and IAE.

6. Corruption? Stupidity? Being stoned at the time? Some decisions are hard to explain!

EXAMPLE: Thai ordered eight (later more) A330-300s - four with GE and four with PW... The GE frames were to be delivered first (all in 1993) and the PW frames a year later. The CF6 was available somewhat earlier on the A330 but did it realy make sense to have a mixed fleet rather than wait a few months for PW? Or why not order all eight with GE? Anyway, common sense eventually prevailed and they were all built and delivered with the same engine (PW).

No doubt there are other reasons why airlines end up with mixed engine fleets but these are six (OK, five) reasonably common ones.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
Thai ordered eight (later more) A330-300s - four with GE and four with PW...

Actually, all the A333s are PW powered with three different gross weight versions (engines probably too). Their A300s are GE & PW powered.
TG has the most mismatched fleet-engine types.
743/744s - GE.
772/773s - RR. (Lets what powerplant they put on the new 772ERs)
MD-11s - GE
A345/A346 - RR (duh)
A333 - PW
AB6 - GE/PW.
A388 - RR?
At least they are moving away from PW, as no new build A333s for the last few years.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 23):
Actually, all the A333s are PW powered with three different gross weight versions (engines probably too).

Most are -321s with PW4164s. Three are -322s with PW4168s and just one is a -323X with PW4168As. The -321s and -322s have the same MTOW and the single -323X has a slightly higher MTOW.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 23):
772/773s - RR. (Lets what powerplant they put on the new 772ERs)

No need to wait and see: RR Trent 892B-17.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 23):
A388 - RR?

They haven't yet chosen an engine for their A380s but it would seem like RR is the more likely choice. (Yes, TG has been pretty eccentric in the past but their more recent orders have maintained much more logic.)
 
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LTU932
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 14):
A330-223s
A6-EYA / YB / YX
GE



Quoting UK_Dispatcher (Reply 14):
A330-202s
A6-EYV / YW
PW

The -202s are GE and the -223s are PW.  Wink

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
EXAMPLES: *UPS put PW2000s on the first half of their 757-200APF fleet but RB211-535s on the second half.

If I'm not mistaken, the PW757s from 5X are all operating in Europe, while the RB211 powered 757s fly all over the American continent and on some Asia flights.

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
EXAMPLES: *JAL put PW4000s on their 777-200s. When they came to order 777-200ERs, however, they chose GE.

What about NH? Don't they have PWs on their 772As and 773As, and GEs on the -ERs as well?
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
4x B744s are RR
4x B744s are GE

Thats actually 3x RR and 5x GE.

ZK-NBS, NBT and NBU are RR all owned and NBV also owned is GE, the rest NBW, SUH, SUI and SUJ are leased and GE powered. I'm not sure if they changed because they took SUH which was a GE powered aircraft leased second hand in 1993 and decided to make all future orders GE or what. They originally had 5x RR powered 742's, so the early 744's just followed on from this, though by then they had taken GE 762ER's. The 732's back then were PW?

NZ have RR powered 772ER's but whatever they order in future to replace the 744's will have GE since the 748 and 773ER don't take anything else. The 787's they have ordered will be RR.

As for the likes of SQ and UA they seem to like the PW but SQ have ordrered 773ER's so GE there, what will they put on the A380 and the 787 doesn't have PW avaliable on it id they decide to order that. UA will have to go for another engine to when they do order new aircraft.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:00 pm

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 26):
The 732's back then were PW?

There was no other engine option for the 732. Only PW on those.

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 26):
As for the likes of SQ and UA they seem to like the PW but SQ have ordrered 773ER's so GE there, what will they put on the A380 and the 787 doesn't have PW avaliable on it id they decide to order that.

Yes, but unlike UA and their 772A/772ER fleet, SQ ordered their 772ERs with Trents, and along their Trent powered 772ERs and A345s, SQ is due to receive the A380 with Trents as well.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:24 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 27):
There was no other engine option for the 732. Only PW on those.

Ah ok thanks for that.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 27):

Yes, but unlike UA and their 772A/772ER fleet, SQ ordered their 772ERs with Trents, and along their Trent powered 772ERs and A345s, SQ is due to receive the A380 with Trents as well.

Thanks again! Sounds good.
 
himmat01
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:57 pm

AI had Boeing 707s powered by RR and PW engines.

Here is B707-437 with RR Conway engines.



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Photo © Stefan Sjögren - Stockholm Arlanda Photography




B707-337 with PW JT3D engines.



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Photo © Yrjö Mäkelä



AI operates A310s with PW and GE engines.


AI A310 with GE CF6-80C2A2 engines.



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Photo © M Radzi Desa





With PW 4152 engines.



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Photo © JKSC

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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:41 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
What about NH? Don't they have PWs on their 772As and 773As, and GEs on the -ERs as well?

NH have PW on all their 777s (including their 777-200ERs) with the obvious exception of the 777-300ERs where they had no choice.

In other words:

JAL - PW on 777-200 & -300; GE on 777-200ER & 300ER
ANA - PW on 777-200 & -200ER & -300; GE on 777-300ER

The difference is just on the -200ER.
 
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:27 pm

British Airways operate 10 A320's with CFM56 engines, the rest of the A32X fleet operate IAE V2500 engines.
The earlier A320-100's operated a slighty different CFM engine that is used today.

A320-100's
G-BUSB-SD - CFM56-5

A320-100's
G-BUSE/F - CFM56-5A1

A320-200's
G-BUSG-SK - CFM56-5A1

These earlier A320's are due for disposal by the end of 2007/2008 season, to be replaced by more A320's and A321's.

G-EUUA-UP/UR - IAE V2527-A5

The IAE Engine seemed to favour BA as their fleet of A319's and A321's use it.

A319's
G-EUOA-OI - IAE V2522-A5
G-EUPA-PH/PJ-PP/PR-PZ - IAE V2522-A5

A321-200's
G-EUXC-XI - A5 V2533-A5

Mark
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RE: Same Fleet Of A/c Type - Different Engines

Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:23 pm

It could be argued that the decision by Air NZ to order their new 772ERs with the Trent was illogical bearing in mind that at the time they were almost certain to order the exclusively GE90 powered 773ERs in the future, and a common engine would presumably offer some benefits, but these days with engine manufacturers offering power by the hour deals, and taking over maintenance on their own engines, it's presumably no longer a major issue...
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