gilesdavies
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Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:12 pm

I have just been reading the very long thread about NZ new LHR-HKG-AKL service they are launching in October and how many people say how crap and aweful it is to transit through LAX.

It is commonly known by the savvy traveller and the travel industry, transitting through through the US onwards to a foreign destination is far from ideal and now UK passengers have an alternative with NZ to go via HKG.

Going by many comments I have read on here and heard from people in the Travel Industry the new route is going to be a great success and passengers are going to have a real choice now when comes to direct flights to AKL. I suspect the routing via LAX is going suffer severely.

Would it be worthwhile NZ consider dropping the LAX-LHR portion of the route and send both LHR-AKL routes via HKG or another Asian city?

Do they carry many passengers on the LHR-LAX route alone?
 
ZKOJH
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:22 pm

the chances of NZ dropping this part of the route is very slim, NZ#1 does ok at the moment between LHR and LAX with loads about 80% full at times,

it also offers connections to other parts of western USA and Canada with our 'Star Alliance' airlines, UA, US and AC, also we have many connections to the south pacific islands's with our 763's and later on our T7's, LAX Airport is our northern hub of operations on the ANZ network and we have been there many years,

also flying westwards and eastwards from LHR offers the only true around the world airline which is good news for NZ and Star..
Vietnam time..
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:33 pm

Can't see it happening to be honest. NZ1/2 is currently the 'showcase route' for NZ from what I gather, not to mention that the loads are quite good according to the other thread.
 
kdm
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:36 pm

What say they went through San Francisco instead of LA?
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:43 pm

I appreciate people saying the route is very busy with 80%+ payloads. - But surely many people will switch to the routing via HKG to avoid the aweful transit at LAX?

If this happens that will have a knock on effect, and until October this is the only routing available to London with NZ.
 
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BNE
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:47 pm

AKL-LAX-LHR is also quicker flying time, than it will be by going via HKG

I can't see NZ dropping LAX-LHR
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Servi

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 4):
But surely many people will switch to the routing via HKG to avoid the aweful transit at LAX?

This is one of those big lies that seem to be endlessly propogated as truth.
The fact is that through passengers on NZ1/2 go to an in-transit holding lounge without any formalities, there is nothing more to it than that. This would be no different in SFO. It has been said that the lounge used at LAX is rather spartan, this may be so.
I would expect that a transit in HKG would be identical.
 
qfba
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:23 pm

You must clear US immigration at your first point of entry regardless if you are only a tranist passenger.

AC pax travelling SYD/YVR via HNL are required to clear immigration fro this reason!!
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Servi

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Qfba (Reply 7):
You must clear US immigration at your first point of entry regardless if you are only a tranist passenger.

My understanding is that this is not so for NZ1/2. I believe BA has a similar exemption. The acronymn for this exemption was included in a recent posting on another thread.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:50 pm

You do need to clear Immigrations at LAX even if transitting through the airport...

Here is an extract from Air New Zealands website:
http://www.airnewzealand.co.uk/trave...ng_your_trip/transiting_via_la.htm

Transit Procedure in Los Angeles

In order to meet new security requirements of the US Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP), all customers transiting through Los Angeles (LAX) on flights NZ1 to Auckland and NZ2 to London must remain in the transit facility while in Los Angeles. EXCEPTION - Business class passengers (see bottom of page for more information).

The following information is to help you understand what you can expect during your transit time in Los Angeles.

Procedure for customers transiting in Los Angeles on NZ1 or NZ2

1. As you leave the aircraft in Los Angeles, Air New Zealand ground staff will direct you to the transit area where you will be required to present your passport and completed U.S. Immigration form to US CBP officials for inspection.
2. There is no requirement to complete Customs documentation when you're in transit.
3. Boarding passes for re-boarding the aircraft should be retained for the continuation of the journey.
4. The entry formalities require every passenger aged 14 - 79 to have a photo taken by the US CBP officials, and will have their left and right index fingers fingerprinted (except for US and Canadian citizens)

There is helpful information about completing the immigration form in the "Customs and Immigration" section at the back of the Air New Zealand Magazine. It's critical that these forms are correctly filled in, so if you make an error or aren't sure whether you've got it right please ask one of your Cabin Crew for help and if necessary a new form.

* The processing requirements of U.S. CBP can cause a wait to enter the transit facility. We are sorry if you experience delays getting to the transit area.
* We know queuing can be uncomfortable so we'll be offering refreshments while you wait to be processed by the authorities.
* If you need to use a toilet before entering the transit area please ask one of our Air New Zealand ground team members for directions.

The following are available complimentary to you while you're in the transit facility:

* Coffee and tea
* Soft drinks
* Potato chips and biscuits
* A selection of fresh fruit
* Duty Free selection available for purchase

Should you require any assistance in the Transit Facility, please do not hesitate to contact one of the Air New Zealand ground team.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):

I would expect that a transit in HKG would be identical.

Actually, no.

In Hong Kong you are free to wander around the terminal and duty free shops. The terminal, is modern and airy with excellent facilities.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 10):
would expect that a transit in HKG would be identical.

As is the way in the rest of the world.. and how it should be.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
cedarjet
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
I would expect that a transit in HKG would be identical.

Ha ha, yeah right. When you're in transit at HK (or anywhere else), you just get off the plane and go shopping for an hour - beautiful experience. Just have a Diet Coke and a fag, maybe buy a portable DVD player, get back on the plane and go. You don't get fingerprinted or photographed, that's for sure.
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aeroman62
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 12):
As is the way in the rest of the world.. and how it should be.

You don't live in a country where people hijacked planes and flew them into three buildings.....we're probably over reacting, but cut the US some slack, we find the abudance of surveillance cameras in and around London excessive, however I don't think anyone in the UK after last summer would question their utility. It is a new world we live in.
 
CrossChecked
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 13):
You don't live in a country where people hijacked planes and flew them into three buildings.....we're probably over reacting, but cut the US some slack, we find the abudance of surveillance cameras in and around London excessive, however I don't think anyone in the UK after last summer would question their utility. It is a new world we live in.

Would have thought we'd be past using 9/11 as an excuse for excessive security measures in the US. Seems that America enjoys making things difficult for people and the use of 9/11 is an excuse that very few people would argue with for fear of appearing insensitive.

You're right that we have a lot of CCTV cameras, but at the same time, they don't impact on you unless you're doing something you shouldn't. We increase security in a number of ways but very, very few of them are noticeable while almost every time the US increases security, it has a direct impact on the public (enhanced security at TSA, transit passengers going through Immigration etc.).

I've done the NZ1/2 before and while an absolutely pain in the arse, the transit malarky wouldn't put me off using the service again. I like NZ and I think they have excellent staff, but the transit procedure is just terrible. I'm surprised the airline couldn't work something out to avoid the need to "enter" America before leaving again.
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HS748
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 13):
we're probably over reacting

Now that has to be the under-statement of the year.
 
Xkorpyoh
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:00 am

I think this immigration check point for transit passenger is useless. Even requiring an US visa for a transit/connection passenger is useless too.
They should follow the example of Australia with their electronic visas and have does on transit complete one for transit/connection purposes before the trip begins (online or with a travel agent for verification at check-in on the first boarding point). In that way the US will know who is coming and match it with any black list they have to get the "terrorist/criminal" before it boards the plane.
IF those in transit are in a secured transit lounge, they shouldn't go through all that trouble. The US airlines are loosing business because of this immigration requirements and many airports in the US are equiped to keep those in transit in a separate secured area.

In the same note, I get really annoyed when I connect in airports where they make you go through security again before going to the connecting gates. Examples: LHR (the worst), ICN, NGO, ATL, NRT...among others.
IF you are coming from a flight that was processed through security before boarding why is the pupose of doing security again if you deplaned in a secured area?!?!?!?
 
LAXintl
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:08 am

I doubt you'll see NZ1/2 disappear operating via LAX.

The added HKG-LHR service and any loss of UK-NZ transit via pax via the US will simply allow NZ to free up needed seats for local sale on LAX-LHR and LAX-AKL legs which were previously occupied by transit passengers.

Overall NZ has established itself quite well on the LAX-LHR route now for years and sells a fair portion or both premium and economy seats localy on the the US-UK leg, with a good portion being Star alliance flyers from both the US and Europe. While admittedly NZ does not have the premium yield mix as good as BA on the route it does not do shabby at either.
A worst case scenario I could ever see is switching the LAX-LHR leg to a 777 as more are introduced into the fleet.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Servi

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 9):
You do need to clear Immigrations at LAX even if transitting through the airport...

My apologies, I stand corrected

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 10):
Actually, no.
In Hong Kong you are free to wander around the terminal and duty free shops. The terminal, is modern and airy with excellent facilities.

So an uncleared passenger is free to wander at will. What is to stop them leaving the terminal?

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):
In that way the US will know who is coming and match it with any black list they have to get the "terrorist/criminal" before it boards the plane.

I observed a NZ gate agent making a list of names and passport numbers for probably that purpose last time I flew AKL-SFO.
 
HS748
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):



Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):
In the same note, I get really annoyed when I connect in airports where they make you go through security again before going to the connecting gates. Examples: LHR (the worst), ICN, NGO, ATL, NRT...among others.
IF you are coming from a flight that was processed through security before boarding why is the pupose of doing security again if you deplaned in a secured area?!?!?!?

Because we do it better than you do!
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):
So an uncleared passenger is free to wander at will. What is to stop them leaving the terminal?

Because they'd have to get through Customs and Immigration to leave the terminal. Do that and they won't be able to get back on their flight in a hurry!

Quoting Aeroman62 (Reply 13):
You don't live in a country where people hijacked planes and flew them into three buildings.....we're probably over reacting, but cut the US some slack, we find the abudance of surveillance cameras in and around London excessive, however I don't think anyone in the UK after last summer would question their utility. It is a new world we live in.

Actually CCTV been is use for quite a while. Largely discrete it's an added measure of security. Many people using public transport feel better for its presence. And though 9-11 was one of those world changing events, 7th July wasn't on the same scale for the UK, partly because many people remember 30 years of bomb campaigns by the IRA, who bombed tube trains in the 1970s, as well as many other targets. I don't think we'll drop our guard, but at the same time most British people will try to lead as normal a life as possible.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
LAXintl
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):
The US airlines are loosing business because of this immigration requirements

Agreed, however the theory the US authorities are working on is that to be able to fly on a in-transit flight via the US, you need to have complied with the same requirements of everyone else onboard.
Otherwise it would be quite an easy terrorist ruse to book a in-transit flight to the US if the screening requirements were lower for transit passengers.
While an electronic visa might seem convenient, I doubt it would even come close to back ground and security checks the in-person Embassy interviews required for many nationalities to gain a US visa.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):
and many airports in the US are equiped to keep those in transit in a separate secured area.

I only know if a handful of US airports that have sterile in transit facilities.
At LAX only two terminals - TBIT and T-2 have smallish rooms in which the in transit pax can be segregated.
US airports have simply never been designed for international in-transit passenger handling.

Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 17):
why is the pupose of doing security again if you deplaned in a secured area?!?!?!?

Because its a well placed ICAO recommendation and followed by near every aviation and security authority.
Just because you have cleared security in one overseas location does not mean you should be entitled to travel unchecked without follow up checks.
The security and political situation in several countries in many parts of the world leave much to be desired. Would you want passengers from country XYZ, possibly from a state sponsor of terrorism, or from a country in the midst of a civil war with questionable government security to be allowed to roam free in the worlds air transport system? Even today there remains international airports in places such as Africa that due to lack of working modern equipment only provide cursory hand checks of persons and baggage!
Hence the prudent approach is simply to rescreen all the arriving passengers before they can depart again.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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NZ107
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
A worst case scenario I could ever see is switching the LAX-LHR leg to a 777 as more are introduced into the fleet.

What if they only buy the 77W and no 748? The 744's are bound to go once that order is delivered.
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):
So an uncleared passenger is free to wander at will. What is to stop them leaving the terminal?

I meant free to wander airside. If they want to leave the terminal and go landside they can, but will have to pass immigration first, and thus might miss their conecting flight (not a security risk as their bags will be offloaded when they fail to turn up for the flight).

Furthermore, unlike some countries, Hong Kong has a very relaxed immigration policy where most countires' nationals are allowed to enter visa-free (something like residents of 140 different nations can enter HK without a visa). Compare that to other countries where some people need a visa just to pass through the airport!
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:19 am

Cedarjet, how true you are!! Smile
also there are some people that just use LAX-LHR that don't start in AKL. plus their business class is cheaper then Virgins... yes Virgin does have some extra stuff like massages and such, but I think that business people flying them don't look at that kind of stuff.
so no I don't think that they will drop it... I hope not!
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
freqflyr
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:33 am

StarGold LHR said

"As is the way in the rest of the world.. and how it should be."

I respect what you said...if you don't like this policy, please move to the US, become a citizen, and change the law( how cool is it that you can do this IF you like)...I was in NYC on 9-11, I won't forget, and wish the entry to the US would be even more strick. I know when I have been to NZ they make it clear that after 21 days( no visa need for 21 days or less) they will track me down and send me home...Great! thats their rules, if I don;t like it I will stop taking clients in NZ,,,there is a large part of the world that wants those that don't think like they do to be 1. Killed, or 2. become a slave and pay a tribute to the "prophet",,,what a bunch of Bull S#(...so until that changes I guess the rules have changed). If I don;'t like the rules in a country, I just don't go..I have be luck and have been on over 45 countries on this planet, don;t think I have missed too much.

free choice, to travel where you want, or Not,,what a great idea,

Cheers
Freqflyr

btw, my family came here form Soctland in 1760, not a whole lot going on in N. America back then,,but I welcome anyone who would like to live here...follow the rules, and join us...or Not!
.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:34 am

Nahhhh, to hell with LAX, I'll go via BKK, spend a couple days there and then fly to AKL. Sounds like more fun. WAIT - IT WILL BE MORE FUN!

LPLAspotter
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jumbo747
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:28 am

I was excited when I came to know about the new route to LHR. But it will be sad to lose LAX-LHR market. I do not see it happens because of the following:

If you see the recent history ANZ is coming to the international terms. Their website provides more booking options with their Star Alliance partners than before. New service from CHC to LAX (Summer only) and now the new route to Europe providing the world trip option.

I would be a backward step if it happens.
 
planetime
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
I doubt you'll see NZ1/2 disappear operating via LAX.

Agreed, not likely that it will be dropped. LAX is their primary international city outside the AUS/NZ region. Also the transit for NZ is not as bad as people make it out to be since NZ has sorted out some deal with US immigration for the transit lounge.

Quoting Freqflyr (Reply 26):
was in NYC on 9-11, I won't forget, and wish the entry to the US would be even more strick.

Stricter might be too much, but I totally agree with you that the US is the # 1 target of most "bad guys" by far and away. And should do as much to protect itself.... most people do not really see the scope of this. Yes sometimes its annoying but New Zealand and rest of the world is not the favourite target of these people.
 
N1120A
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:43 am

Given that New Zealand and the UK are visa waver countries, I would venture to guess that you could clear immigration and customs if you wanted to and then reboard the aircraft in the normal boarding area of T2.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 29):
NZ is not as bad as people make it out to be since NZ has sorted out some deal with US immigration for the transit lounge.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Given that New Zealand and the UK are visa waver countries, I would venture to guess that you could clear immigration and customs if you wanted to and then reboard the aircraft in the normal boarding area of T2.

So.......what does all this mean in practical terms?
 
N1120A
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 31):
So.......what does all this mean in practical terms?

It means that transiting LAX if you are flying NZ isn't a big deal.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CXA330300
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:27 am

Well, lets be fair: the US is huge, and its rich, and its powerful. Obviously many are going to hate a huge, rich, and powerful country, and people do hate the US. While the measures are somewhat draconian, the US cannot afford to have such lax immigration procedures. Also, keep in mind that in the US, an exit stamp is not needed, meaning (technically) one is still in the US until they board their departing aircraft. So international transit pax technically do enter the US.
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planemanofnz
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 4):
I appreciate people saying the route is very busy with 80%+ payloads. - But surely many people will switch to the routing via HKG to avoid the aweful transit at LAX?

Only a limited percentage of people actually fly the whole way AKL-LAX-LHR. Traffic also consits of fifth freedom rights travellers from LAX to LHR. AKL-LAX is already a strong route. Sure, NZ is bound to lose a few customers on the LHR-LAX-AKL route because of the new HKG service, however because they have a new product which is brilliant, they will gain more passengers from UA, AA, BA and VS on the route as people will be wanting to find the best product on the route. I would not expect the current AKL-LAX-LHR's routes loads to be affected that much at all.
 
IL96M
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Do they carry many passengers on the LHR-LAX route alone?

This is interesting for Star Alliance passengers.

I take NZ 1/2 about 4-5 times per year, LAX-LHR and return. It is a great flight; their economy is better than UA's business product within the Star Alliance on that sector.

I also happen to do quite a bit of LHR-HKG and there was no Star Alliance on that sector (unless the Virgin rumors are true), so that's great too.
 
rongotai
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:10 am

There are a lot of people here who have actually experienced the NZ1/2 LAX transit many times. I'm one of them. After four experiences on business trips and four on personal trips on economy I shifted our whole company Europe travel off NZ and on to any Asian airline available. When NZ start AKL-HKG-LHR we'll move back to NZ.

For us it wasn't just the appalling queues and disgusting environment for a 2 hour stopover. It is the fact that about 75% of the time you get treated arrogantly and rudely by US immigration officials who are quite scary because on each occasion I have seen them apply the rules quite arbitrarily to the disadvantage of people who have done nothing more than challenge their rudeness and lack of consideration for old people, young families, etc.

This sort of thing never happens at SIN, HKG or BKK. It is true that you have to go through security to get back into the gate lounges, but that is a very minor inconvenience compared with what happens at LAX.

If you don't like what happens at US airports you don't have to go there, and that is the prevailing US attitude of most officials. Fine - that is the deal, it is their prerogative and it is really clear. So I don't go there. I transit countries where they are pleased to see you.
 
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:23 am

NZ will never give up AKL-LAX-LHR. Even if every passenger doesn't continue to LHR or AKL from LAX, NZ will make up those numbers with passengers who start their travel from LAX. NZs LAX services are big for NZ
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jm017
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 21):
Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 19):
So an uncleared passenger is free to wander at will. What is to stop them leaving the terminal?

Because they'd have to get through Customs and Immigration to leave the terminal. Do that and they won't be able to get back on their flight in a hurry!

I have had the pleasure of experiencing this first-hand. After clearing customs and immigrations in a US airport, I was surprised how UNSECURE the terminal area was. Unticketed passengers could have easily gained access to secure areas, and indeed the gate area, without proper screening. There was nothing preventing them from mixing with those of us waiting to reboard the aircraft. The homeland wasn't very secure that night.
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jfr
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 37):
NZ will never give up AKL-LAX-LHR. Even if every passenger doesn't continue to LHR or AKL from LAX, NZ will make up those numbers with passengers who start their travel from LAX. NZs LAX services are big for NZ

Absolutely.......I take this flight 6+ tiimes a year, and it's almost always full. If anything, I've had to take the earlier NZ6 because NZ 2 is chockers.

Anybody who asks this question simply doesn't get the excellent economics of the Oz / NZ transpac flights. These are some of the most lucrative flights on the planet.

Maybe the transfers at LAX are not great (or worse!), they still get great loads. As a Star Alliance-points earning carrier, NZ's gonna get lots of Yanks because the NZ LHR service beats UA hands down, especially now that they have Virgin's lie-flat beds.

Like many other regulars, I always look forward to my next NZ transpac flight.....
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting Rongotai (Reply 36):
It is the fact that about 75% of the time you get treated arrogantly and rudely by US immigration officials

I would concur with this statement. I am a US citizen working in the Middle East and travel to the US 3-4 times per year and am subjected to the same treatment by Customs and Immigration officials upon my arrival in the United States. I have been in/travelled thru many countries in the world and never have I seen more surly employees than I have at US Ports of Entry, although there are several Immigration officers at FRA who come real close. I believe rude and arrogant behavior is taught in week three of the new hire training class...  Big grin

For those who whine and complain about the security procedures in the United States, as others have stated you have other options other than transiting US airports. Stringent security measures I will wholeheartedly endorse, but rudeness on any level should not be tolerated.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting Qfba (Reply 7):
You must clear US immigration at your first point of entry regardless if you are only a transit passenger.

You are correct with that assertion, with the exception of NZ1/2 where the bags stay onbaord the aircraft.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Given that New Zealand and the UK are visa waver countries, I would venture to guess that you could clear immigration and customs if you wanted to and then reboard the aircraft in the normal boarding area of T2.

Yes technically we'd be fine to 'enter' the USA, but practically 2 hours to clear the Security/passport queues twice through LAX will have you struggling to reach the plane in time.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
767er
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:42 pm

There is no way that NZ will ever give up LAX. They have been flying there since 1965 - not that should count for much.

Loads on the LAX sectors are always high and I understand load on the new premuim buisness are excellant.

Why would anyone want to fly LAX LHR LAX on UA in Y or J when you have NZ.
Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
 
planetime
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 31):
So.......what does all this mean in practical terms?

Overall US is hard place to transit from, but for the NZ1/2 there is some special arrangement made that make it easier. It is a little exagerated specially the NZ 1/2 stories.

Quoting 767ER (Reply 42):
Why would anyone want to fly LAX LHR LAX on UA in Y or J when you have NZ

GOOD POINT and UA codeshares with them also. So its almost a given that its a full flight LAX-LHR everytime.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 40):
Stringent security measures I will wholeheartedly endorse, but rudeness on any level should not be tolerated.

VERY VALID POINT.  checkmark 

Quoting Rongotai (Reply 36):
This sort of thing never happens at SIN, HKG or BKK.

I live in Singapore trust me it happened to me more than oncethat I got rude immigration official. The ones with limited English ability are usually more poilite ones in Singapore. And worst immigration as far as rudeness goes was encountered by me in Sydney airport.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 33):
Well, lets be fair: the US is huge, and its rich, and its powerful. Obviously many are going to hate a huge, rich, and powerful country, and people do hate the US. While the measures are somewhat draconian, the US cannot afford to have such lax immigration procedures.

EXCELLENT POINT WE SEE What being easy with terrorist/organizations has also cause UK on July 11,2005, although it is nothing compared with what Americans experienced on 9/11.
 
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 41):
Yes technically we'd be fine to 'enter' the USA, but practically 2 hours to clear the Security/passport queues twice through LAX will have you struggling to reach the plane in time.

Remember, you wont have to worry about waiting for your bags because you wont be claiming them. That will save you a bunch of time. Additionally, I have come off a VS 744 at T2 and had no issue with lines there. That FIS may be smaller than Bradley, but it is plenty big enough to handle NZ2's arrival
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tope98
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 40):
Quoting Rongotai (Reply 36):
It is the fact that about 75% of the time you get treated arrogantly and rudely by US immigration officials



Quoting Freqflyr (Reply 26):
If I don;'t like the rules in a country, I just don't go

sadly thats they way it is... i dont agree with many of your rules, and as people have mentioned here officers can be very rude with tourist sometimes for no reason... i have my visa, my passport they have scanned me with lots of machines since i was in caracas and they still look and talk to me with rudeness... cant understand why this... its not the first nor the last time i go there.

But as its been quoted its your country and you can do whatever u want there... whether we like it or not.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:20 pm

NO would be the answer, it's an incredibly successful route in spite of the debacle of transiting through LAX.

I'm looking forward to doing the round the world trip with NZ (and trying premium economy).

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Would it be worthwhile NZ consider dropping the LAX-LHR portion of the route and send both LHR-AKL routes via HKG or another Asian city?

Do they carry many passengers on the LHR-LAX route alone?

The short answer is no. It is a high yield, high load factor flight and will remain so even with the HKG service. NZ picks up a lot of local traffic in LAX, so if thru traffic reduces, it just means more seats available to be sold to local traffic.

Quoting Zkojh (Reply 1):
the chances of NZ dropping this part of the route is very slim, NZ#1 does ok at the moment between LHR and LAX with loads about 80% full at times,

"ok" ? 80% is a pretty high load factor for an airline to have consistantly... "does well" would be more correct  Wink

Quoting Zkojh (Reply 1):
it also offers connections to other parts of western USA and Canada with our 'Star Alliance' airlines, UA, US and AC, also we have many connections to the south pacific islands's with our 763's and later on our T7's, LAX Airport is our northern hub of operations on the ANZ network and we have been there many years,

also flying westwards and eastwards from LHR offers the only true around the world airline which is good news for NZ and Star..

all true and exactly the reason why NZ is staying at LAX (also LAX is to be redeveloped soonish), LAX has a much bigger local market to draw from than SFO also.

Quoting Kdm (Reply 3):
What say they went through San Francisco instead of LA?

see above.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 4):
appreciate people saying the route is very busy with 80%+ payloads. - But surely many people will switch to the routing via HKG to avoid the aweful transit at LAX?

Perhaps more people that are thru pax going all the way will go via HKG. LAX has lots of local traffic. The other advantage of going via the states is over course the "Piece System" baggage allowance which is very appealing to pax.

Quoting Qfba (Reply 7):
You must clear US immigration at your first point of entry regardless if you are only a tranist passenger.

NZ has an exemption for NZ1/2. Yes you have to show your passport etc but you don't go thru the whole process and don't get security screened (which is one of the big time wasters at any airport but especially LAX)

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 23):
What if they only buy the 77W and no 748? The 744's are bound to go once that order is delivered.

If NZ decides to replace 744's with T7s then expect to see a 3rd UK flight (most likely Manchester but LHR is always a possibility). More likely will be the purchase of at least 4 if not 8 748's (and still the chance of a 3rd UK service possibly via SFO).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Given that New Zealand and the UK are visa waver countries, I would venture to guess that you could clear immigration and customs if you wanted to and then reboard the aircraft in the normal boarding area of T2.

Yes you are correct. You can choose to clear customs if you like. I have done this myself, took about 15-25mins to get thru customs, had just over an hour outside breathing in LA's smog, went back upstairs security would have taken about 30mins to get thru which would have been too tight so I flashed my ID and got ushered thru  Smile Personally I don't recommend passengers clear customs as all the hassle with that and security is not worth it for an hour free at LAX... apparently about 10 people from each flight do decide to do this however and they have to locate at least 1 every flight who has been late back to boarding.

Quoting Rongotai (Reply 36):
There are a lot of people here who have actually experienced the NZ1/2 LAX transit many times. I'm one of them. After four experiences on business trips and four on personal trips on economy I shifted our whole company Europe travel off NZ and on to any Asian airline available. When NZ start AKL-HKG-LHR we'll move back to NZ.

The transit is not that bad! If you are business you get to use the koru lounge also! If you are economy, well as I said its not that bad.

So thats the long answer. No NZ isn't leaving LAX anytime soon!
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
koruman
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:27 pm

For Air New Zealand, LAX-LHR, AKL-LAX and SFO-AKL all make more profit than AKL-LHR, simply because the fares are roughly 80% of AKL-LHR, but for half the flight (and cost).

HKG is coming on line simply as a route to slough off AKL-LHR through passengers onto, so that AKL-LAX and LAX-LHR seats are occupied by people only flying those sectors on NZ1 and NZ2. That will increase the already exceptional profitability of Air NZ's LAX services even more, while LHR-HKG-AKL will mainly have through LHR-AKL passengers, and will be allowed to operate at a slight loss as the price for making LAX flights even more profitable.

Like many people, I don't like travelling through LAX (although I have flown at least 40 Air NZ flights through LAX in the last dozen years).

But that is not an anti-USA sentiment. Flying to or through SFO is always a pleasure, even with the same TSA regulations, because the staff are helpful and the airport is spacious (i.e the international terminal is under-used).

LAX is a nightmare because the staff - including those in Air NZ uniforms - don't ever forget that - are rude, arrogant and incompetent. That's unlikely to change, because SFO's cold winters mean that Air NZ will never move their California hub there.

But let me tell you this. There are many Australians and New Zealanders (and I'm both) who given a similar flight time and fare would choose to fly through the USA every time compared to flying through Asia. Let me explain why...

1) However extreme people may find the US government, I find it hard to boycott the USA to transfer my custom to Singapore or Hong Kong.

2) Air NZ's LAX route allows paradise island stopovers in Tahiti, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga or Rarotonga apart from the breadth of California. The HKG route offers Macau. Where would you rather go?

3) Economy class passengers flying LHR-AKL get 1 x 20 kg baggage allowance via Hong Kong or 2 x 23 kg flying via Los Angeles. Again, which would you choose?

The airline knows that putting most AKL-LHR passengers onto the HKG route will compromise its profitability, but that the lower baggage allowance will allow more freight to be carried.

But as a passenger, I know which route I will be taking. And it won't be the HKG one.

[Edited 2006-04-17 09:35:00]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:20 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 22):
Agreed, however the theory the US authorities are working on is that to be able to fly on a in-transit flight via the US, you need to have complied with the same requirements of everyone else onboard.

Yes, and the reason for this is NOT trivial. People need to do a little research about the very early planning of 9/11, "Bojinga" and the bombing of the Philippine Air jet into Japan from Cebu before mouthing off about how 'wrong' it is for the USA to want to control it's own borders and screen all pax who get onto a plane bound for the USA even if those pax don't plan to get off here.

Al Qaeda had a plan that was thwarted at the last minute in the mid-90s to use the transiting mechanism to get onto planes bound for the west coast without scrutiny and simultaneously destroy up to 9 747s.

There were two ways of doing this. One was to get on a 'through' flight like NZ1, which would mean you could hijack a jet and crash it, either into the ocean or into a list of west coast targets. 9/11 was a domestic version of this attack, as they determined that it's just as easy to get into the USA and stick around a while, then fly domestic where there is no screening. As soon as 9/11 happened, the USA closed down the transit "loophole" which they had wanted to do for a long time, but diplomatically, they couldn't. This decreased the international threat, and theoretically, the no-fly lists and other mechanisms decrease the domestic threat (though both are debatable).

The other 'transit' method was to get on a flight that started in one country with week screening, then stops in a place like HKG and get off, basically bypassing some of the screening they might otherwise get. On the first leg, you could plant a bomb on the jet, then get off the plane before it goes off, never being scrutinized by any US agency. This can still be done, but there have been measures taken to make it more difficult to leave an item behind.

Even after the Philippine government busted up this plot due to the bomb making equipment catching fire, the Clinton administration did little about it, just like they didn't do anything after the first WTC attack, just like they didn't do anything after other attacks, and just like the Bush administration didn't do anything until 9/11.

It these two loopholes were to be reopened (or, rewidened, really), expect this scenario to play out.

There are a lot of things that people overreact to when it comes to security. Doing a check on everyone who enters your nation? That's not overreacting. That's common sense.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: Could We See The End Of NZ's LHR-LAX-AKL Service?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:55 pm

Air New Zealand will never give up AKL-LAX-LHR. Air New Zealand do their homework. Qantas did not many years ago when they started 707 service to the USA and chose SFO as their destination. Qantas had enormous difficulty changing to LAX. Air New Zealand chose LAX for the start of US service with DC8s and have never looked back.
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