flamedude707
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747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:31 am

Can 2 747 land at the the same time at SFO. I've seen plenty of parrallel landings there before, but was wondering whether there was enough clearance between the runwys. Has it happened before?
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Stitch
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:44 am

I once landed on 28R in a UA 744 while an NH 772ER started her take-off roll on 28L, so clearance doesn't seem to be an issue.
 
September11
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
so clearance doesn't seem to be an issue.

I thought so. Here are photos of 777 and 747 dual landings at SFO:


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Photo © Paul Spijkers
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Photo © Keith Wahamaki

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andz
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:08 am

I would have thought there is no point in having parallel runways if they can't be used simultaneously.
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redneckslim
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:10 am

Done that many times! so cool and what is really nice is to see nothing but water until you hit the deck
 
as739x
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:38 am

Yes! I saw the many times while living in the Bay Area and working 9 years at SFO. And obviously with a 777/747 its the same wingspans. I mostly noticed United 747's doing this, but never new if this was due to the fact their pilots frequent SFO and were very accustom to these approaches.

ASLAX
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mandargb
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:40 pm

I havent seen "2 747s" landing but should be very normal to do that.
I see a 747 and 340 landing side by side.
And so is a 747 and a 777.
Also seen a 747 and MD-11 landing side by side (you guessed it right, it was a KLM MD11)
 
mandargb
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:44 pm

Correct my earlier post.
Those were all for 28L/R.
Let me know if somebody has seen that for 1 L/R.
As it is this case of using 1L/R for landing is very rare and I have seen that happening only couple of times (days) in 5 years or so. But have never seen a parallel landing on 1L/R.
Also havent seen parallel landing on 10L/R either. (if they ever use 10 L/R) for landing at all.
 
ILOVEA340
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:29 pm

They never do it perfectly parallel on 28L/R
The runways are just too close together for tem to confortably land perfectly parallel. You will notice that the planes are always stagered by a few hundred/thousand feet. The runways are also far to close to eachother of prarllel IFR operation. Thus there are HUGE delays when VFR mins can' be meet.

Quoting Andz (Reply 3):

They work great for parallel DC-3's  Wink
But they were not in any way designed to take two parallel widebodies.
 
saturn5
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 8):
The runways are just too close together for tem to confortably land perfectly parallel. You will notice that the planes are always stagered by a few hundred/thousand feet

Not true. If you hang around long enough you will see two planes perfectly side by side landing on 28L/R. And by the way, wide bodies or not - makes no difference. Perfect side-by-side approach is actually beneficial for a few reasons - from the timing point of view, that both crews can clearly see each other and because of wake turbulance. As a matter of fact both aircraft will usually have slightly different speeds - which causes them to gradually shift their mutual positions. For IFR operations it is true that the distance between the runways is too small for simultaneous approaches.

[Edited 2006-04-17 10:08:44]
 
saturn5
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Mandargb (Reply 7):
As it is this case of using 1L/R for landing is very rare and I have seen that happening only couple of times (days) in 5 years or so.

True, it is extremely rare. In fact if you ever saw any landing on 1L/R then consider yourself extremely lucky - I never saw it happened even though I have been practically commuting to work right under the approaches to both those runways for the last 10 years. The 1L/R approach got to be so much more challenging because of the high terrain.

Quote:

Also havent seen parallel landing on 10L/R either. (if they ever use 10 L/R) for landing at all.

Yes, you can see them use 10L/R quite often in winter time (both for landings and takeoffs). I can't testify to how perfectly parallel these approches are - I never hang around long enough.

[Edited 2006-04-17 10:14:02]
 
Morvious
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:13 pm

A Virgin B747-400 DvD of ITVV shows it very nice at the end of the LHR-SFO leg.

When the pilot is turning for finals, he is told by ATC to slow down, so that they won't overtake the other plane landing on 28R.
I guess that the ATC is doing their job to let them land one after the other, and not at the same time, atleast, that was the case on this DvD.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
modesto2
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:18 pm

28L/R arrivals are sequenced together so 1L/R departures can be fit in between those arrivals. If the 28 arrivals are staggered too much, runway 1 departures would never get off the ground.
 
sky
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:07 pm

I've landed in a KLM MD-11 while a SQ747 was a couple of meters (I thought) next to me on the parrallel runway. Was a moment I will never forget.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:17 pm

Runway centerlines (for both pairs of runways) at SFO are 750 feet apart, which gives ample clearance for visual approaches, but does not meet instrument regs by a bunch (if I remember correctly, you need 3,400 or 4,300 foot separation, depending on the type of parallel approach).

The runways were built (and spaced) back in the days before anyone could imagine we'd have airplanes with 200 foot wingspans approaching at 150 kts.

~Vik
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ANITIX87
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting September11 (Reply 2):
I thought so. Here are photos of 777 and 747 dual landings at SFO:

The first one is a 767. Same thing, I know, but just a friendly reminder!

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727forever
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:29 pm

These approaches are called ILS PRM and are only done to 28L/R. PRM stands for Precision Radar Monitored approach.

It works best to have two aircraft paired together that have similar approach speeds, ie 2 747s or a 747 and 777 or 747 and MD-11. These aircraft all approach at between 145 and 155 knots. The other key is to have them spaced less than a mile from one another so that the wake does not have enough time to spread out into the approach path of the following airplane.

If say a 747 and a 733 were paired together, wake turbulence separation will become and issue. A 733 normally approaches in the 130-140 knot range. He will be too fast if he flies at 145-155 to keep up with the 747. If he flies his normal approach speed, the 747 can catch and pass him. If the 747 gets more than about a mile in front of him, the 747 wake will spread out into the 733s approach path. Wake moves back, slightly down, and spreads out as time progresses. If wind helps push the wake into the approach path of the 733, oops.

Neat approaches to see, but they do have their issues. If NORCAL approach keeps everyone separated and the correct airplanes together, this is a good set up. If not, it's a ticking time bomb.

727forever
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CWAFlyer
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 16):
These approaches are called ILS PRM and are only done to 28L/R. PRM stands for Precision Radar Monitored approach.

In SFO they are actually called SOIA (Simultaneous Offset Instrument
Approaches) because the second approach is an LDA. The mins
to do them are quite high (1800 and 3). The idea is to have the
arrival rate at 36, rather than 30 with single approaches. I've
actually seen it as high as 42, if they have the manpower and
the equipment is working. A lot of times, the manpower isn't there.
Currently, the SOIA is out of service until the end of May for
equipment upgrades.
 
727forever
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 17):
called SOIA

You are correct. I was referring to the general program nation wide called PRM. Thanks for the additional note.

727forever
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kaddyuk
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 14):
(if I remember correctly, you need 3,400 or 4,300 foot separation, depending on the type of parallel approach).

You need to have a half mile between the centre lines to perform Parallel Instrument Approaches. As was mentioned, they can however perform parallel Visual Approaches.
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vikkyvik
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 19):
You need to have a half mile between the centre lines to perform Parallel Instrument Approaches. As was mentioned, they can however perform parallel Visual Approaches.

Ah, ok. So 2,500 feet. Is the 3,400 that I remember for "simultaneous" instrument approaches? I remember some distinction there, but I forget what it is.

~Vik
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
timz
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:30 am

I think you had it right the first time-- 4300 feet for independent simultaneous instrument approaches.
 
modesto2
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:01 am

It's 4300 for independent simultaneous apps.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:53 am

I've landed on 28R in a NW DC10 with a UA DC10 landing parallel to us on 28L.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
September11
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RE: 747 Landiing At SFO

Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 15):
The first one is a 767. Same thing, I know, but just a friendly reminder!

Good catch!!! Thanks for bringing that up.  smile 
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