jacobin777
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PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:46 pm

Looks like PK are liking their 777's and will be adding more to the fleet.....the 773-300ER's should be coming this year too (December from what I've read..but could be early next year).. bigthumbsup 

Interesting to note they are looking to replace their 7 737-300's with Airbus A320's and A321's....I thought they would go with the 737NG's.....

Hopefully some of those rustbucket 743's will be going soon... gnasher 

Would love to see a 787 order also.... yes ...but I doubt we'll be seeing that for a while... Sad

Fair use excerpt:

.............

"MULTAN, April 16 (APP): Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA), Tariq Kirmani said on Sunday that the national airline would be acquiring 29 new planes during next three to four years under a forward-looking investment plan.

The initiative of acquiring new planes was aimed at improving air travel services further, enhancing average age of a plane by seven to nine years from existing 21 years and meet overall requirements of the present cutting-edge technology age to match the best of the standards in airline business, Tariq Kirmani said.

He said, twelve 777 boeing planes would be added to PIA. Five of them have already reached, three more would be here in 2007, around a year ahead of delivery schedule, while four more would come sometime later.

Kirmani said that fokers would be replaced by seven ATR planes, three of them to be delivered this year including one in May, the other in October and the third in December. Their delivery is expected to materialize by the year 2007.

Boeing 737 would also be replaced by A320 or A321 depending on the economic situation.

Some of the planes would be acquired through long lease and others to be purchased, Chairman PIA told newsmen after the conclusion of the meeting. "

rest of the article at..

http://app.com.pk/n83.htm
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
Interesting to note they are looking to replace their 7 737-300's with Airbus A320's and A321's....I thought they would go with the 737NG's.....

Hmm.... Back in 2004, before the 777 orders came through and they were planning what to do, a 737 captain was telling me that they intend to replace the 737s with the -700s by the year 2007 or something. Because the rest of the things he said happened just about that way, I am surprised too. Plus PIA without F-27s, and as you mentioned above, without 737s and 747s just doesn't sound like PIA to me. But then again its PIA we are talking about so you never know until its delivered.  
Hope they do what will work and make work what they do.

[Edited 2006-04-17 06:59:28]
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 1):
Hmm.... Back in 2004, before the 777 orders came through and they were planning what to do, a 737 captain was telling me that they intend to replace the 737s with the -700s by the year 2007 or something. Because the rest of the things he said happened just about that way, I am surprised too. Plus PIA without F-27s, and as you mentioned above, without 737s and 747s just doesn't sound like PIA to me. But then again its PIA we are talking about so you never know until its delivered.
Hope they do what will work and make work what they do.

lol..with PK, one never knows what's happening.... biggrin 

I would love to see PK get the 737's..and from all I read, that's what I thought they would get....maybe they don't want to go "all-Boeing" for their jets...but I wonder if they will retrain the 737 flight crew or fire them and hire a new flight crew....will be interesting...

I can't recall being on a PK-737, but I'll be happy to not sit on one of thos rustbucket 747's........it was bad enough 10 years ago, I can't imagine how bad they are now.......
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):
I would love to see PK get the 737's..

Ditto!!!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):
....maybe they don't want to go "all-Boeing" for their jets...but I wonder if they will retrain the 737 flight crew or fire them and hire a new flight crew....will be interesting...

I don't think being all-Boeing is anything to be concerned about, (though I loved the A300s, they had to go but that made me kindda sad) commonality is usually good. PIA used the same engines on the 747s and the A300s (not sure about A310s).
About the flight crew, even in the "best" of situations, PALPA (PIA's pilots association) would have made sure that doesn't happen, in fact the addition of a new type with almost anyone, only means that the crew will be type rated and never fired. The flight engineers however are now sort of the endangered species, a few of them were let go of with the A-300. And now the classic 747s, I will miss the classic cockpits. Anyway with the crew shortage they are in, its almost not a possibility that anyone will be let go of.

BTW what are you doing this late? Me, I am studying (or trying to).  

[Edited 2006-04-17 07:20:44]
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 3):
About the flight crew, even in the "best" of situations, PALPA (PIA's pilots association) would have made sure that doesn't happen, in fact the addition of a new type with almost anyone, only means that the crew will be type rated and never fired. The flight engineers however are now sort of the endangered species, a few of them were let go of with the A-300. And now the classic 747s, I will miss the classic cockpits. Anyway with the crew shortage they are in, its almost not a possibility that anyone will be let go of.

I'm glad there won't too many firings.......PK already has a big shortage of pilots.....

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 3):

BTW what are you doing this late? Me, I am studying (or trying to).

me........doing my taxes  yuck  and searching for flights to Pakistan... biggrin ...

I'm debating if I should take the 777-200LR from JFK or YYZ..most probably JFK, as I can fly AA (AA-Platinum) SFO-JFK...... bigthumbsup 

otherwise I will fly AA SJC-LAX then AA 777-200ER LAX-LHR....stop in London for a few days, then fly BA LHR-DXB on another 777-200ER  biggrin , then my usual EK A330-200 from DXB-KHI.......

whether I take PK or not, it will still be a 777 fest  biggrin  biggrin 

it depends on how I schedule my trip....
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:43 pm

I don't have suggestions the planning for your trip, I am just like......
LUCKY YOU!!!!!
I haven't been back home for almost 3 years now, feels like forever and I miss it like hell. So you're headed to Karachi, say hi to Lahore for me if you happen to stray there.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
I'm glad there won't too many firings.......PK already has a big shortage of pilots.....

Well I didn't say that I know there wouldn't be, I just don't think this reason is good enough for any, especially given the shortage.

Good luck with the taxes, on the last day just like a Pakistani lolz.  bigthumbsup 

Have a great trip, I am looking forward to your trip report already, do post it.
 
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zeke
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:50 pm

I suppose it more than likely will be an all boeing fleet as the US government and Boeing seem to be basically subsidising the fleet renewal at PK.

Source : Secret Documents Reveal PIA Owns No B-777 Aircraft

If the 777 is such a great aircraft, why does the US goverment (through the EX-IM bank) and Boeing basically have to dump them onto the market for approximatly 25% of the list price ?
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):
I don't have suggestions the planning for your trip, I am just like......
LUCKY YOU!!!!!
I haven't been back home for almost 3 years now, feels like forever and I miss it like hell. So you're headed to Karachi, say hi to Lahore for me if you happen to stray there.

three years?  Wow!

I go almost every other year, in fact, I was there last August.. biggrin 

I have some photos from last year....maybe I can post some up..

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):
Good luck with the taxes, on the last day just like a Pakistani lolz.  bigthumbsup 

hehehe..you know how it is... Wink

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 5):

Have a great trip, I am looking forward to your trip report already, do post it.

I typed a trip report on my last trip, I should have put it, but I shall this time for sure...not to mention, I"m purchasing all-new Camera equipment for my trip... thumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
Zeke

Hmm.. somtimes there can be a bit too much blaming, I'd have to wait before I comment, further I don't know if I can trust those who wrote all this. And no I don't believe the mx are angels.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
three years?

Yeah and thats when we get free tickets, the rest of my family went more than once (of course) I just couldn't get the time. And the next year is (probably) the last year of free tickets for me.  cry 
I am hopeful I can do it this year.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 7):
I have some photos from last year....maybe I can post some up..

Please do....

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 6):
I typed a trip report on my last trip, I should have put it, but I shall this time for sure...not to mention, I"m purchasing all-new Camera equipment for my trip...

Now you really have me waiting.  bouncy 
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
I suppose it more than likely will be an all boeing fleet as the US government and Boeing seem to be basically subsidising the fleet renewal at PK.

Source : Secret Documents Reveal PIA Owns No B-777 Aircraft

If the 777 is such a great aircraft, why does the US goverment (through the EX-IM bank) and Boeing basically have to dump them onto the market for approximatly 25% of the list price ?



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):

Hmm.. somtimes there can be a bit too much blaming, I'd have to wait before I comment, further I don't know if I can trust those who wrote all this. And no I don't believe the mx are angels.

I've read the "secret documents"...a lot of it is to be said about it....there was some news about this when this happened, but at the end of the day, it became a "non-issue".......

it turned out, many people didn't want to see PK purchase Boeings, but rather A340's....good thing they didn't!

a conspiracy? I don't know, but at the end of the day, nothing fraudulent came out of it...

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Now you really have me waiting.

you got it brother.., Wink

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 8):
Please do....

here's a few...my pleasure...... Smile








"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
it turned out, many people didn't want to see PK purchase Boeings, but rather A340's....good thing they didn't!

Hmm. the A340 thing does ring a bell, I also remember both Europe and the US were putting political pressure to win the orders, that was during the 'dry' period after 9-11. PIA made the biggest order of the year.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
here's a few...my pleasure......

O thanks so much.

Put the new equipment to overtime work.  Wink
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 10):
Hmm. the A340 thing does ring a bell, I also remember both Europe and the US were putting political pressure to win the orders, that was during the 'dry' period after 9-11. PIA made the biggest order of the year.

it was the biggest order in PK history...and I'm glad they did it........!!!

given how the A340 got crushed by the 777 (with the increase in cost of oil), it was a great move by PK!

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 10):
O thanks so much.

welcome..... Smile

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 10):
Put the new equipment to overtime work.

 thumbsup 

signing off now...

wa.........
"Up the Irons!"
 
FCKC
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:14 pm

I still wonder , why they do not choose the A330 , to replace the A300s and A310s?
 
deltadc9
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:47 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):
If the 777 is such a great aircraft, why does the US goverment (through the EX-IM bank) and Boeing basically have to dump them onto the market for approximatly 25% of the list price ?

Wow, selling at a profit is dumping? Can I have my member fee back?

BTW, since when does list price mean anything? Ever bought anything big at list? And if you did were you proud of it?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
cricket
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:00 am

Hmmm, it seems all south Asian carriers have dsylexic fleet planners.
But why hasn't PK renewed its domestic fleet? And if they do renew their domestic fleet with the A32X family when would an order be placed most likely?
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
zvezda
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 6):

If the 777 is such a great aircraft, why does the US goverment (through the EX-IM bank) and Boeing basically have to dump them onto the market for approximatly 25% of the list price ?

From where do you get 25% of list price?
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:20 am

The article lists $140,803,561 per 777 paid by PIA. What is the big deal with the Ex-Im financing. If I recall EK has also used this financing as well as many other airlines. I think the EU has a similar financing vehicle for products originating in the EU.

So Citibank put up the funds on these planes, is there a reason why they wanted the loan to go to an entity outside of Pakistan. Things like repossesion, loan rates (sharia - where charging of interest is illegal), etc. could make them want this. Yes it sounds like a paper company, but Citibank wouldn't do this if they felt their $ was at risk.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 12):
I still wonder , why they do not choose the A330 , to replace the A300s and A310s?

the A330 is too big of a plane as n A300 A310 replacement....and it starts to get too close to the 777's, while not having the capabilities of the 777's...especially their new -200LR's..

Quoting Cricket (Reply 14):
Hmmm, it seems all south Asian carriers have dsylexic fleet planners.
But why hasn't PK renewed its domestic fleet? And if they do renew their domestic fleet with the A32X family when would an order be placed most likely?

I'll agree with you on the "Asian carriers" thing...but you have to admit, both PK, and AI-being government-owned carriers, did do a good job with a new fleet decision..not to mention, all of the other private carriers such as ED (Airblue), 9W, and KF have done well...

they are replacing their ATR's and Fokkers.....with only 7 737-300's....it wasn't too much of a big deal....they seriously needed to replace their aging widebody fleet, not to mention, they needed newer planes to expand and compete internationaly.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
planetime
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
I'm debating if I should take the 777-200LR from JFK or YYZ..most probably JFK,

Hopefully you will have direct flight in both directions.
 Wink
 
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zeke
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
Wow, selling at a profit is dumping? Can I have my member fee back?

Please tell me where the article said they were purchased at a profit.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 13):
BTW, since when does list price mean anything? Ever bought anything big at list? And if you did were you proud of it?

It is the upper limit granted, 150mil for 3x777s or 50mil a piece, is dumping.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
From where do you get 25% of list price?

from the article "Pakistan has actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment so that a One-Dollar company in Cayman Islands could own these aircrafts on behalf of the Citibank.", work out yourself what 150 mil on the purchase price of 3 aircraft is.

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 16):
The article lists $140,803,561 per 777 paid by PIA. What is the big deal with the Ex-Im financing. If I recall EK has also used this financing as well as many other airlines. I think the EU has a similar financing vehicle for products originating in the EU.

Incorrect, that is what the Bank paid, PIA "actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment so that a One-Dollar company in Cayman Islands could own these aircrafts on behalf of the Citibank." according to the article.

EX-IM financing I don't have a problem with, however you would not find such generous terms from the EX-IM bank for a non-US company sale. It is a subsidy to Boeing by the US government not generally available to the competitors product.

If the product was a 330 or 340 with the same financing terms (i.e. the french or other European goverment majority puchasing aircraft for an airline), the persons stating it is okay om this thread I would suggest would not state the same.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 18):
Hopefully you will have direct flight in both directions. Wink

lol...I'm there with you mate. Wink

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
It is the upper limit granted, 150mil for 3x777s or 50mil a piece, is dumping.

dumping is illegal......from what I know, PK has paid around $140-$155 million per plane...
"Up the Irons!"
 
deltadc9
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
Please tell me where the article said they were purchased at a profit.

I think you mistake a complex financial transaction where everyone came out ahead with a simple one where someone (Boeing) lost money. I don't think you have any ground to stand on when you make a claim that Boeing lost money or that dumping actually occurred.

Even if Boeing sold those planes for below cost, I seriously doubt the net/net bottom line of the transaction was red. The shareholders would show up with torches and pitchforks and blood would spill. Wall Street takes a dim view of shady transactions of that scale and would have downgraded their stock and credit were if Boeing were to sell at a loss like that when they have no reason to.

This is of course my opinion, but it is an educated one.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
I still wonder , why they do not choose the A330 , to replace the A300s and A310s?

With the successful arrival of the 777 family I don't think A330 ever had a chance.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 22):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
I still wonder , why they do not choose the A330 , to replace the A300s and A310s?

With the successful arrival of the 777 family I don't think A330 ever had a chance.

errr...Bravo45, I think you misquote me.....I said the same thing. Wink

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 17):
the A330 is too big of a plane as n A300 A310 replacement....and it starts to get too close to the 777's, while not having the capabilities of the 777's...especially their new -200LR's..
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
errr...Bravo45, I think you misquote me.....I said the same thing

Oops...
Sorry, I intended to take the quote from the fellow who mentioned it, instead I quoted him from your post, hence the misquote. I wanted to second you.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 24):

Oops...
Sorry, I intended to take the quote from the fellow who mentioned it, instead I quoted him from your post, hence the misquote. I wanted to second you.

got it  thumbsup ..what you think of the photos above? remind you of good ole' Pakistan ey?  Wink

I can't wait until I go again... bigthumbsup 
"Up the Irons!"
 
bravo45
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
got it ..what you think of the photos above? remind you of good ole' Pakistan ey?

Jeez, it can't be explained in words, last time I was in Karachi was back in 2002, brings back a lot of good old memories, the PAF museum etc. I like to not think about it a lot unless someone drags me in, and just work on making sure I can make it hopefully in less than 4-5 months now. How long will be your trip and do you plan to go anywhere other than Karachi? I would love to visit the northern areas with tents etc if the situation has improved enough.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 26):
Jeez, it can't be explained in words, last time I was in Karachi was back in 2002, brings back a lot of good old memories, the PAF museum etc. I like to not think about it a lot unless someone drags me in, and just work on making sure I can make it hopefully in less than 4-5 months now. How long will be your trip and do you plan to go anywhere other than Karachi? I would love to visit the northern areas with tents etc if the situation has improved enough.

this time around, I'm only going to Karachi for about 10 days..that's how long I usually go for..since I go every year, or every other year, I don't have to be in Pakistan for months on end, like I used to over the summer...you know how it is....

of all the times I've gone to Pakistan, I think the total amount of time that I've stayed there is probably 2-3 years...I used to go for 3-4 months at a time back in the 1980's...

....if I make it again this year, prior to Ramadan, then I'll go up north to Gilgit....

I think next spring though is when I plan on doing a "full" northern Pakistan Tour.....up to Lahore, NWFP, and for sure Gilgit and K2 Region...in fact, I'll probably take the PK sightseeing tour for K2 offered by PK...it will depend on who from my family will want to go though.....

http://www.piac.com.pk/pia_tour.asp
"Up the Irons!"
 
Hamlet69
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
It is the upper limit granted, 150mil for 3x777s or 50mil a piece, is dumping.

Umm, did you actually read the article you yourself posted?  confused 

From the article:

"Pakistan has actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment."

"The net contract price for the 3 B777-200ER is: $422,410,685."

"So each of the three aircraft will cost $140,803,561."

"Exim's Guarantee Amount is (85% of net-net prices) or $351,313,900."

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
It is a subsidy to Boeing by the US government not generally available to the competitors product.

So let me get this straight: PIA agrees to a deal with Boeing for the 777's whereby PIA will come up with the initial $150 million as a down-payment, and the remaining contract will be financed by CitiBank through a guaranteed loan from Ex-Im. PIA will then spend the next 12 years (also stated in the article) leasing/paying off this loan. And to you, this is a Boeing subsidy by the U.S. government??  confused 

I'm sorry Zeke, but I think you're getting yourself confused. Indeed, the article itself doesn't seem to question the Boeing deal, but rather (rightfully) attacks PIA management for stating that these aircraft have been purchased, when they are actually leasing them from CitiBank.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 19):
If the product was a 330 or 340 with the same financing terms (i.e. the french or other European goverment majority puchasing aircraft for an airline), the persons stating it is okay om this thread I would suggest would not state the same.

Depends, is the airline ordering either GE or PW engines, which Ex-Im will finance?  Wink

Also, if this were true, where does that put you?


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
warren747sp
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:32 pm

Looking at Zeke's comment
I should point out at this super low selling price we know that there is defintely no kickback paid to the Pakistani prime minister unlike the AC deal which made the former Canadian prime minister a very wealthy man.
747SP
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 29):
Looking at Zeke's comment
I should point out at this super low selling price we know that there is defintely no kickback paid to the Pakistani prime minister unlike the AC deal which made the former Canadian prime minister a very wealthy man.

actually Warren747sp....$140 really isn't a "super low" selling price, IIRC, a few carriers got this price also...
"Up the Irons!"
 
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zeke
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RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 28):
Umm, did you actually read the article you yourself posted?

From the article:

"Pakistan has actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment."

Yes I did, putting that quote in context ....

Quote:
PIA has not purchased any aircraft, as repeatedly claimed by PIA Chairman and other executives, these documents reveal. Pakistan has actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment so that a One-Dollar company in Cayman Islands could own these aircrafts on behalf of the Citibank.



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 28):
"The net contract price for the 3 B777-200ER is: $422,410,685."

Agreed, however it is not a competitive playing field when the US government EX-IM coughs up $351,313,900, and the airline just 150 million. What airline do you know in the USA is purchasing a 777 with just 50 million of their own cash ?

If you have a lease arrangement, fine, I have not problems with that, however this deal is clearly not a normal lease arrangemnet either where ILFC etc would purchase said aircraft and lease them to the airline over a fixed period.

How is this fair then for a US carrier or any other carrier for that matter that uses its own cash to purchase aircraft when this third world airline like PIA get them at way below what they can. No normal carrier can compete with this.

How can any organisation like ILFC compete with such a deal like this ? The financing terms in this deal are very unuusals, and are not normally available to any airline or leasing company.

As the article states, and you have difficulty acknowledging, PIA does not own the aircraft, nor will it after any period of time based on the documents presented. To quote from the article "No resolution adopted by the PIA Board has authorized PIA to purchase the aircraft." and "It nowhere mentions any purchase."

The only known payment is 150 million by PIA, as the expert said "the deal between Taxila and PIA could include anything as that was not covered by US laws and PIA could have agreed to pay any amount as lease to Taxila, which in turn could recycle some of it to anyone agreed upon"

I also note the following comments "The most striking revelation has been made by the Boeing Company itself, admitting that the B-777 delivered to PIA earlier this year was not up to the required specifications and PIA had expressed concerns about the quality."

To support product dumping train of thought, as well as providing aircraft to an airline with a minimal cash investment, a product below specification, Boeing are adding cream to the cake in the deal by providing "parts, service and labor free of charge."

Again, what other airline or leasing company gets this from Boeing ?

I am sorry, the whole deal smells.

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 29):
Looking at Zeke's comment
I should point out at this super low selling price we know that there is defintely no kickback paid to the Pakistani prime minister unlike the AC deal which made the former Canadian prime minister a very wealthy man.

Now now, I thought I was cynical  Smile
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Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
however this deal is clearly not a normal lease arrangemnet either where ILFC etc would purchase said aircraft and lease them to the airline over a fixed period.

Funny that you mention that, as PK has only just recently signed a contract with ILFC to do just that. . .

Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
The financing terms in this deal are very unuusals, and are not normally available to any airline or leasing company.

Zeke, I have neither the time nor the desire to do your research for you. I know you to be an educated person, but if you don't understand a certain aspect of the industry, don't try and pretend that you do by making unbased accusations/condemnations against PK, Boeing and/or the U.S. government.

Your continued insistance that this deal is in some way "very unusual" is simply incorrect. Now, I do agree that the "One dollar company" does appear out of the ordinary. However, a lender providing the funding for an airline to acquire aircraft, all backed by a guranteed loan by the ExIm Bank, is by no means unusual. In fact, it is more the norm than the exception. During a simple 10 minute search here http://www.exim.gov/ I found 12 examples, including some that may surprise you:

Air Senegal
Asiana
Austrian Airlines
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
Ethiopian Airlines
LAN
Pakistan Int'l
Ryanair
Singapore Airlines
Virgin Blue
Vietnam Airlines

Most of these deals, like the PIA one, are being financed by well-known institutions (CitiBank, Barclay's, Royal Bank of Scotland, etc.).

BTW - all the deals, once again just like PIA, are for 12 years.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
As the article states, and you have difficulty acknowledging, PIA does not own the aircraft

Is that the part where I stated:

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 28):
attacks PIA management for stating that these aircraft have been purchased, when they are actually leasing them from CitiBank.

 sarcastic 

Quoting Zeke (Reply 31):
nor will it after any period of time based on the documents presented.

Exactly. Now, if you were to re-read the article with an unbiased (you might refer to it as "uncynical") mind, what is the author's agenda? Answer that, and I think you'll figure out the second part of your mistake (the first one not realizing how common these deals are).



The last part of your post I will completely ignore, as it shows a complete ignorance of real-world occurences in aircraft production.


Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:38 am

Perhaps PIA will be another carrier that will purchase some 737-900ER's.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: PIA To Acquire 29 Planes In 3-4 Years

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 33):
Perhaps PIA will be another carrier that will purchase some 737-900ER's.

I hope so too..but I'm not too sanguine after these comments...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
(Chairman)Kirmani said that fokers would be replaced by seven ATR planes, three of them to be delivered this year including one in May, the other in October and the third in December. Their delivery is expected to materialize by the year 2007.

Boeing 737 would also be replaced by A320 or A321 depending on the economic situation.
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