swissgabe
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Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:34 pm

I understand, that at the time when the 720 was available, there was already the Boeing 707-120 and -320 in service (or at least available for sale).

Why did Boeing produce an aircraft with a much smaller range and with lower speed. Fuelburn was a bit lower with the 720 as it had a capacity of arouns 20 pax less than the 707. Did the 707 indeed fly before the 720?
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redflyer
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting Swissgabe (Thread starter):
Why did Boeing produce an aircraft with a much smaller range and with lower speed.

At a time when the 707 was the only commercial jet Boeing had built, it was simply relying on it to address a different segment of the commercial market. Specifically, it was trying to shoe-horn a 707 derivative to meet airline requests for a smaller jet to serve smaller passenger markets. In the end, it wasn't a very successful attempt (it didn't completely address all requirements as it was simply too big) and directly resulted in the development of the 727.
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CV990
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:44 pm

Hi Swissgabe!

No, no, the B720 didn't have lower speed, infact the Boeing 720 was one of the fastest airliners at that time with the CV880 and CV990.
Boeing built the 720 to catch the market for some airliners that needed a jet to routes with medium capacity were the 707 or the DC-8 were too big, and also to fight Convair with their CV880 model.
And you know Boeing almost "burned out" the 720.....if they didn't catch UA order. Until that point Boeing was seriously considering to stop that project because Convair already had two big orders, one from DL and one from TW and Convair was in very, very good position to get UA, but at last minute Boeing gave a "great proposal" to UA and UA ordered it!!! Then other big orders came like AA, CO, Western, NW and then Boeing also got some airlines from outside USA that were thinking about starting jet flights with a more modest and cheap airplane like PIA, SV, ET, EL AL, Avianca!
The lesson of the Boeing 720 is the fact that after they came out with this model latter paid back because many of those small airlines that ordered the 720 actually got other Boeing models!
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DeltaRules
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:24 pm

Another question: Why "720"?

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flflyguy
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:47 am

If I remember correctly the "720" designation was the result of a request by United. United had already ordered the DC-8. In addition to those aircraft, they needed to order jets for smaller routes. Originally, the 720 was to be called the 707-XXX (I don't remember the suffix). United, however, was concerned that if they bought something called a "707", it would be perceived as admitting that the DC-8's were a mistake.

Therefore, Boeing called it the 720, giving United the opportunity to tout it as a "new model" when in reality it was a 707 derivative.
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stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 4):
United, however, was concerned that if they bought something called a "707", it would be perceived as admitting that the DC-8's were a mistake.

And a big "mistake" it would have been, the United order for 30 DC-8s was at the time the largest commercial airline order ever, at $175 million.

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 4):
Originally, the 720 was to be called the 707-XXX (I don't remember the suffix).

That would have been the 707-020.

MTOW and fuel capacity were less than that of the 707-120, as well as being 8ft shorter for a 2-class capacity of 112 or single-class of 149.
But the major change centered on the wings. The 720 came with full-span leading edge flaps, and modifications to the area where the wing met the fuselage..increased sweep, which increased wing area, but decreased the thickness/chord ratio.....uh, simply, it was more aerodynamic allowing for higher cruising speeds.

So we actually had a better bird than the 707-100...albeit smaller. United, in the days when airlines marketed their airplanes as much as any other aspect of the service, didn't want to appear in the publics eye of having an inferior aircraft compared to the -100s and -200s out at the time, when in their eyes they felt the 720 was an improvement, demanded a different designation from Boeing, and got it.

The 720 was actually 2 aircraft, the original "720", and the improved "720B" first flown by American.

The original 720 came with PW JT3D-1 12,000lb thrust Turbojets...the later 720B had the JT3C-7 17,000lb thrust Turbojets. That's a big increase, about 40% more power.
The aircraft also had a higher MTOW and MZFW...that gave the 720B 45% more payload capacity, but more specifically, suited the 720B for short-haul services.

The new Turbofans increased the power-to-weight ratio, resulting in the shortest takeoff roll of any 707 derived aircraft.

Many earlier Turbojet models were later converted to Turbofans

It was known as a "Bargain Basement Jet", and this is what killed Convair, along with Boeings ability to offer a "family" of aircraft suited to each mission.

The 720B established the customer base for the 727 which went on to become the best selling jetliner of its time.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
Specifically, it was trying to shoe-horn a 707 derivative to meet airline requests for a smaller jet to serve smaller passenger markets. In the end, it wasn't a very successful attempt (it didn't completely address all requirements as it was simply too big) and directly resulted in the development of the 727.

The 720 was absolutely a transitional aircraft.

720 orders:

29-United
15-Eastern
10-American
5-Braniff
3-Aer Lingus
2-Pacific Northern
1-FAA

Total:65

720B orders:

27-Western
15-American
13-Northwest
8-Continental
8-Lufthansa
4-PIA
4-TWA
3-Avianca
3-Ethiopian
2-EL AL
2-Saudia

Total: 89

Total 720/720B: 154
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TS-IOR
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:55 am

I know very well the B720s of Conair Scandinavia. This type made the good days of this airline. Also my father told me that TWA used to fly NYC-TUN via MAD with B720s.
 
kellmark
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:09 am

I remember the B720s that we had at Eastern with the"straight-pipe" engines. They were numbered a/c 701-715. I flew on them as a passenger a number of times. The pilots liked them except that they were definitely underpowered. It took them awhile to climb to altitude. The 720B was definietly the better aircraft.
 
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:10 am

I never realized that the turbofans gave that much of a boost.

I did hear some stories about the original turbojet variant. At Braniff they used to joke that it "wouldn't taxi over a wet cigarette butt" and takeoffs from high-altitude Mexico City were 'hair raising'.

No wonder the conversions were popular. Although Braniff never converted theirs, they did end up with some of Qantas' 707-138Bs, which hauled ass and was similar in size to the 720.
 
cf6ppe
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
The original 720 came with PW JT3D-1 12,000lb thrust Turbojets...the later 720B had the JT3C-7 17,000lb thrust Turbojets. That's a big increase, about 40% more power.

Very good post, but.... the
The B720's came with the JT3C-7 (turbo-jet) powerplants.
and
The B720B's came with the JT3D-1 (turbo-fan) powerplants.

I've ridden on both the straight pipe and "B" versions. The straight pipe versions took a lot of runway and low fences, while the "B" versions were at 1,500 feet by midfield...

Gross weight for the 720 was about 230,000 pounds and 235,000 pounds for the 720B's.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
I remember the B720s that we had at Eastern

Eastern had Boeing install two exit windows over the wing of their
720's...just like the exit windows on the 707. All other 720's had one exit window over the wing.
TWA 720B's were leased as a test and to compare with the 880. TWA changed the lease to a BUY but on 727-100's and turn the 720B's back to Boeing which did sell 3, and perhaps all four, to Northwest.

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 4):
Therefore, Boeing called it the 720, giving United the opportunity to tout it as a "new model" when in reality it was a 707 derivative.

I heard that story too... Its like later in time, Northwest's Donald Nyrop telling Donald Douglas to change the DC-10-20 to model 40 because it sounded newer then the DC-10 model 30...
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stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting Cf6ppe (Reply 9):
Very good post, but.... the
The B720's came with the JT3C-7 (turbo-jet) powerplants.
and
The B720B's came with the JT3D-1 (turbo-fan) powerplants

You're right.....my little rhyme that I use to remember failed me..."Cee the jet? It's Dee Fan" I know, silly, but its how I remember things..."C" for the Turbojet, "D" for the Turbofan...as in JT3C-X and JT3D-X. Thanks for catching it.

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 6):
TWA used to fly NYC-TUN via MAD with B720s.

Really?

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 8):
Although Braniff never converted theirs, they did end up with some of Qantas' 707-138Bs, which hauled ass and was similar in size to the 720.

It was 2 feet shorter than the 720, but its MTOW was 22,000lbs greater.

707-120 144 ft MTOW 257,000
707-220 144 ft MTOW 247,000
707-320 152 ft MTOW 312,000/331,000B/334,000C
707-420 152 ft MTOW 312,000
707-138 134 ft MTOW 247,000/257,000B
720-020 136 ft MTOW 229,000/235,000B

707s that never were....

The 707-620 would have retained the -320Bs MTOW of around 330,000 but the fuselage would have been stretched 25+ feet....if they could have figured out the landing gear issue. Because the aircraft sat lower to the ground, unlike the DC8 which sat higher, any more stretching to the 707 would have resulted in tail strikes...unless the gear was modified.

Another proposal was the 707-820, around 40 feet longer than the -320, with a wingspan 10 feet wider, it would have had a MTOW of 410,000....for a capacity of about 275. Again, the landing gear issues squelched that in addition to a complete re-think of the flap system..
I am thinking that if they gone ahead, they would have also found out they were going to need an entirely new wing as well, so either way, the -800 was doomed.

I have no idea where the -500 went.

The -700 was a CFM56 testbed. The aircraft was later refitted back with -320 powerplants and delivered to the Morrocan government.
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duke
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:29 am

Yes, the original designation was going to be 707-000, or rather -020 according to the normal commercial designation system for the 707. It is also interesting that wing modifications from the 720 were re-incorporated into the turbofan 707-120B.
 
swissgabe
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:52 am

Thanks a lot for all the replies. It helped me quite a lot!
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JDD1
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:07 am

I believe the 720 was introduced specifically to kill the Convair 880 and 990, which it did.
Boeing later used the same tactics when they introduced the 747SP to counteract the DC10-30 in South Africa (I think) and the 737-600 to fight off the MD-90 at SAS, which killed the MD-90 and MDC.

Qantas also had 720s. I flew from LHR to SYD in one in 1964 and can remember the Captain telling me that it was "a bit of a hot rod". We could visit the cockpit in those days.
 
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
I remember the B720s that we had at Eastern with the"straight-pipe" engines.

IIRC, those were also the only 720's with dual overwing emergency exits.

Quoting JDD1 (Reply 14):
I believe the 720 was introduced specifically to kill the Convair 880 and 990, which it did.

That's the core reason for the 720. Boeing really, really, REALLY didn't want Convair to break into the business. Rumors were that they sold United the birds at cost just to keep the order from going to Convair.

Steve
 
stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting JDD1 (Reply 14):
Qantas also had 720s. I flew from LHR to SYD in one in 1964 and can remember the Captain telling me that it was "a bit of a hot rod". We could visit the cockpit in those days.

Sure you don't mean the -138B....it was certainly referred to as a "hotrod" many times. The moniker can be found in many publications that refer to QANTAS' special variant of the 707. But nowhere can I find any mention of a 720 being ever operated by QANTAS.

The 707 variants used by QANTAS were -138Bs, -338Cs, and a single -349, an original Flying Tigers aircraft operated from 1970 to 1973.

QANTAS operated 14 707 variants over its lifetime as far as I can tell.
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RandyWaldron
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:40 am

Incidentally enough, I just found an old book of mine just the other day in a stack of junk in my basement, entitled: "The Boeing 707 & 702" by George W. Clearley - it's fairly old but is very detailed about the 707/720's history.

Quoting Swissgabe (Thread starter):
Why did Boeing produce an aircraft with a much smaller range and with lower speed.

The book says: "The Boeing 720 was designed and developed to operate over shorter state length flight segments than the 707 and was considered a medium range aircraft."

Quoting Swissgabe (Thread starter):
Did the 707 indeed fly before the 720? Yes. The first variant of the 707, the Dash 80, flew on 7/15/54. The first 720 flew on 11/23/59.

[quote=DeltaRules,reply=3]Another question: Why "720"?

According to the book, "When the 720 was first publicly announced in July 1957, it was known as the Boeing 717...."

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BTCCMan
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting TS-IOR (Reply 6):
I know very well the B720s of Conair Scandinavia. This type made the good days of this airline. Also my father told me that TWA used to fly NYC-TUN via MAD with B720s.

Oops - TW never had 720s...

Quoting Stirling (Reply 16):
Quoting JDD1 (Reply 14):
Qantas also had 720s. I flew from LHR to SYD in one in 1964 and can remember the Captain telling me that it was "a bit of a hot rod". We could visit the cockpit in those days.

...nor did QF
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Stealthz
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 17):
According to the book, "When the 720 was first publicly announced in July 1957, it was known as the Boeing 717...."

And that may be a mistake in the book. IIRC the "real" Boeing 717 was the company designation for the KC-135.

Quoting JDD1 (Reply 14):
Qantas also had 720s. I flew from LHR to SYD in one in 1964 and can remember the Captain telling me that it was "a bit of a hot rod". We could visit the cockpit in those days.

I don't believe so, I am fairly familiar with the 707 variants that Qantas operated and I do not think there were ever any 720s, perhaps a short term lease or charter for a MX or capacity issue but I doubt it! In those days SIN-SYD was Long Haul for a 707, A 720 from LHR to SYD would be a "stopping all stations" ride
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redflyer
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 19):
And that may be a mistake in the book. IIRC the "real" Boeing 717 was the company designation for the KC-135.

It may not have been a publishing "mistake". Since the "717" nomenclature was not used, especially since the designation morphed into the KC-135, it could very well have been available for use by a civilian model. Afterall, isn't that why the 717 designation was eventually assigned to the former MD-95?
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stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 15):
Rumors were that they sold United the birds at cost just to keep the order from going to Convair.

I don't think that is a rumour, but rather a well-established fact.

Quoting BTCCMan (Reply 18):
TW never had 720s

OK, this is going to be complicated.
What follows is what I've been able to gather from various sources, available information on the TWA 720 is slim.

TWA ordered 4 720Bs for delivery in the latter part of 1961.

From what I can tell, they sold their delivery slots to NW, but they took delivery of the aircraft in a lease back arrangement.

The aircraft were:
N791TW Jul61-Oct62
N792TW Aug61-Sep62
N793TW Aug61-Jul68
N794TW Sep61-Oct62

But here is the weird thing, they were ordered by TW, but the customer code they were delivered with was -051B....and not -031B as one would associate with TW Boeing orders.

NW didn't keep them much longer...selling them off to Monarch (791-793) and Maersk (794).

3 were cannabalized for USAF KC-135 program, but N784TW is extant and alive, currently with Honeywell as N720H in Phoenix!
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jfr
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
720 orders:

29-United
15-Eastern
10-American
5-Braniff
3-Aer Lingus
2-Pacific Northern
1-FAA

Total:65

720B orders:

27-Western
15-American
13-Northwest
8-Continental
8-Lufthansa
4-PIA
4-TWA
3-Avianca
3-Ethiopian
2-EL AL
2-Saudia

Total: 89

Total 720/720B: 154

Didn't you forget Delta?
 
Stealthz
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:10 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 20):
It may not have been a publishing "mistake". Since the "717" nomenclature was not used, especially since the designation morphed into the KC-135, it could very well have been available for use by a civilian model. Afterall, isn't that why the 717 designation was eventually assigned to the former MD-95?

KC-135A Boeing Model #717-100A, -146, -148
KC-135B Boeing Model #717-166
C-135A Boeing Model #717-157
C-135B Boeing Model #717-157
C-135F Boeing Model #717-164

As this was an active production production program at the time the 720 was being developed it would be unusual to adopt the designation for a quite different aircraft. When Boeing took over the MD-95 program the original 717 program was but a distant memory (except of course to those men & women of the UASF that still fly and maintain them)

Nomeclature morphed into KC-135, that is not quite correct, many aircraft are assigned a military designation by particular operators and there were many cases in US service in the past where the different services had different designations. These aircraft often still retain their manufacturers model codes within the company. Easily identifiable examples are the -
VC-25A -B747
C-32 -B757
C-40 -B737
C-9 -DC-9
E-8 J-Stars -B707 (mostly ex Qantas 707-338 actually)
C5 -L-500
C130 -L-100

[Edited 2006-04-18 05:27:45]
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BA
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 3):
Another question: Why "720"?

It was originally to be designated 707-020, but Boeing wanted to promote it as an independent separate aircraft, so they designated it 720.
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ramprat74
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:30 pm

Here is two great pics. So how long did UA fly these birds? This pic shows them retired by 1972.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Groot




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter de Groot

 
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RayChuang
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:40 pm

If I remember correctly, the 707-138B was a unique model for QF that had quite long range needed for transpacific operations (I think they flew them Sydney-Fiji-Honolulu-Los Angeles).
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:55 pm

To answer the OP's question, Why did Boeing build the 720? Easy, it was to carry the Dodgers...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ellis M. Chernoff



Not sure when the O'Malley's bought this bird from AA, but they also got maintenance and servicing in the deal. Back in the 70's you always knew when the Dodgers were in St. Louis to play the Cards, since you would see this aircraft sitting in front of the old AA cargo terminal, where Concourse "D" now sits in STL...
 
stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting Jfr (Reply 22):
Didn't you forget Delta?

No. Delta did not order any 720s. Delta Air Transport of Belgium is close as you will get, operating an ex-UA bird in 1974.

Quoting Ramprat74 (Reply 25):
So how long did UA fly these birds? This pic shows them retired by 1972.

You are correct. 1972. The United fleet went out with a wimper, most stayed in storage for many years, about 3-5 years before being picked by other airlines. And when they did, it was usually only for short term leases...One did go straight to Braniff, N7224U, the same ship that later went on to be the Led Zeppelin World Tour aircraft in 1977-78.
None of the fleet remains airworthy today.

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
Boeing wanted to promote it as an independent separate aircraft

More like United wanted it that way.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 26):
If I remember correctly, the 707-138B was a unique model for QF that had quite long range needed for transpacific operations

That is true. Empty weight of the 720, but with the MTOW of the 707-120.
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N49WA
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:24 pm

I flew many times on Western's 720B's. One question has always puzzled me; why did some airlines have the trademark 707 type antenna on the 720's tail, and some, like United, did without?
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redflyer
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 23):

I should've known better than to pontificate on this site, where all manner of experts and -- I say this with utmost respect -- where aviation nerds reside.  Big grin

Thanks for setting the record straight. I learned something today!  thumbsup 
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stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 27):
Not sure when the O'Malley's bought this bird from AA

Jan71....going to Great American Airways in Jan81
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grantcv
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:41 pm

It seems that Boeing was trying to convince the world that the B720 was a completely new aircraft rather than yet another B707 derivative. I seem to remember hearing that the 720 shared very few parts with the 707, despite looking identical.

Maybe the great success of the 720 inspired another manufacturer to take that same path more recently.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 31):
Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 27):
Not sure when the O'Malley's bought this bird from AA

Jan71....going to Great American Airways in Jan81

Thank you sir!!

Quoting Stirling (Reply 28):
One did go straight to Braniff, N7224U, the same ship that later went on to be the Led Zeppelin World Tour aircraft in 1977-78.

I had forgotten about that one. For Zep afficianados out there, you will find several shots of this bird in "Hammer of the Gods", the unofficial LZ bio...
 
Broocy
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
It was originally to be designated 707-020, but Boeing wanted to promote it as an independent separate aircraft, so they designated it 720.

Nearly so, but from Jon Proctor's excellent book "Boeing 720" he says that UA's William Patterson pushed for a new designation to save face given UA's commitment to DC-8's over 707's. Patterson did not like the sound of "seven-one-seven" or "seven-seventeen". Neither did they like the "oh-twenty" (020) designation. Thus it became 720.

Quoting Kellmark (Reply 7):
Eastern with the"straight-pipe" engines. They were numbered a/c 701-715. I flew on them as a passenger a number of times. The pilots liked them except that they were definitely underpowered. It took them awhile to climb to altitude.



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rick Skoroszewski



I was born in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. The Eastern 720's were some of the first jets that I flew on when they were shipped, against UN sanctions, to Rhodesia from Calair. If they were underpowered in EA's ops, I shudder to think what they were like operating from Salisbury/Harare and Johannesburg airports which are hot and at over 5000ft above sea-level. I vividly remember looking out over the wing with the turbo-jets shaking wildly beneath them as we flew through the hot, convective African air. It was one of the moments that made me fall in love with air travel.

[Edited 2006-04-18 08:21:31]

[Edited 2006-04-18 08:23:07]
 
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longhauler
Posts: 4941
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting N49wa (Reply 29):
I flew many times on Western's 720B's. One question has always puzzled me; why did some airlines have the trademark 707 type antenna on the 720's tail, and some, like United, did without?

That antenna was an HF antenna. If like WA you needed HF communication, (for Hawaii flights) then it was installed. However, United did not fly their B720s anywhere but on the continent, so did not need HF radios.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
duke
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:33 am

A few miscellaneous answers to the above:

1. Stirling is right. Qantas flew the very similar-looking short-body 707-100, but never the 720.

2. At one point, the 707-020, later was called the 717. While I am not sure of the exact reason why it ultimately became the 720, I imagine it was because the KC-135 already would have likely had the 717 company model number by then.

3. The first 720s, which were for United, were delivered without the monopole antenna. From what I read, this changed when some companies asked for the antenna to be included. I do not know this for a fact, but I think that the 29 United 720s were all without the monopole, and maybe all of the batch of 10 that were delivered as turbojets to American, but likely no others. In fact after these latter were converted to turbofans and sold to other airlines, at least some were given to those airlines with the monopole - this was done by exchanging the tails of American 707-100s with those of the sold 720s.

Also all TWA 707-100Bs except for one (but not TWA 707-100 turbojets to my knowledge) were delivered without the monopole.

Now I have a question. Is this claim that the 720 had really different parts from the 707 true? I do not get this impression. As I said, the wing modifications of the 720 were subsequently incorporated into the 707-100. The 707-300 also had a modified wing. As a comparison, if anyone knows, what two aircraft would be more similar technically, a 707-100B short body (Qantas plane) and a 707-300B, or a 707-100B short body and a 720B?
 
JDD1
Posts: 93
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:52 am

Stirling and StealthZ
I stand corrected, it must have been a 707-138B I was on, but to use your quote, it was a "stopping all stations" ride: LHR-IST-THR-DEL- SIN- Darwin-SYD. It took me two weeks to recover, but I saw a lot!
JDD1
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):

The TWA 720B's

Well, the four were leased from Boeing, turned back to Boeing, leased by NW then purchased by NW. The NW N numbers were N730US, N 731US,N732US and N733US.
source....Jet Airliners Production List Book One(Boeing jet liners).
You are 101percent right on the model 051B. I dont get it either. If they were built and leased to TW, then the model should have been 031B.....strange.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 38):
The TWA 720B's

I would sure love to know more about this!
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stirling
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RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 38):
I dont get it either. If they were built and leased to TW, then the model should have been 031B.....strange.

I remember I had Jon Proctor's email...I dropped him a line...he is a great source of TWA knowledge.
For those of you who don't know, Jon Proctor is one of the editors of Airliners and a genuinely good guy. I could easily hang around and talk airplanes and airlines with him all day! He can be found at some of the larger Airline conventions...last time I ran into him was at the LAX Airliners convention.
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RC135U
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 9:53 pm

RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 40):
I remember I had Jon Proctor's email...I dropped him a line...he is a great source of TWA knowledge.

I noticed that a Jon Proctor was listed as a new member of A.net a couple of months back, so I'm sure he's following these threads.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Why Did Boeing Build The 720?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:05 pm

UA introduced the 720 on June 5, 1960, and retired the last one in September of 1972. The entire fleet of 29 was stored, split between DEN, as the picture shows, and at MSP. As someone else wrote, they stayed there for years. I attended the University of Colorado from 1969-1972 and lived in Denver until mid 1973, so that picture brings back lots of memories. The aircraft were stored between the Flight Academy and the Large UA hanger on grass back from Quebec Street. One 720 aircraft was leased by BN, and was painted in the 2nd two tone blue rendition of Flying Colors, but it was returned shortly thereafter and stored at DEN in Braniff colors along with the others. The UA Caravelles were stored at DEN in 1970, and were sold off within a year or two, 13 of them going to Sterling. When that sale took place, the Denver Post did a big story on it. UA considered re-engining the 720's but they also needed to be re-skinned, so they parked them. One 720 was scrapped at MSP, and sat there in a derelict position for a number of years. UA used the 720 to introduce One Class (S) service in 1963, which was a great idea, and provided terrific service but was not successful. For a few dollars more than coach, you 2-3 seating, instead of 3-3, lots of leg room, first class food, and free drinks. But the differential over coach was enough to push some passengers away, and the lack of First Class for a few dollars more, cost UA too. After converting even a few DC-8's, the idea was given up on in 1965 and three class F/L/Y was introduced on the four engine jets. That didn't last long either. But UA kept trying. For a while in the 1976-1977 period, they converted their DC-8 coach cabins to 2-3 seating. Before deregulation, service was the method airlines used to fight for market share, not price. The differential from Y to F was small. $15.00 each way coast to coast. ORD-NYC was 43.70 coach, 48.00 in One Class, and $52.30 in F, circa 1964, and the fares didn't go up until late 1969.

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