keesje
Posts: 8760
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:42 am

An interim Airbus narrowbody, A320EP "Enhanced Performance" to meet airline demand for lower fuel costs and more range and capacity. Many airline just can´t wait for 7 to 10 years for a brand new design. IES Q2 2008.

Specifications A320EP
Length: 41m
OEW: 44.500kg
MTOW: 87.000kg
Range: 3300nm

The aircraft is stretched 3.5m compared to the A320, 3.5m short of the A321. New elliptical winglets are fitted, the fuselage stretch provides airlines room to fit an additional 4 seatrows or 24 seats at 34 inch seat pitch compared to the A320.

Cockpit
The cockpit incorporates evolutionary improvements in the latest A320 series. More drastic improvements are avoided to retain 100% commonality with the large worldwide A320 fleet, pilots and support networks.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Darren Howie



Engines
The EP´s engines are CFM56-9´s, an evolutionairy development of the CFM56-5 and -7 versions. Most significant difference is the 10% larger fan cross section, resulting in a 20% higher by-pass ratio. The fan has a 3-D woven composite fan and a reduced number of blades. Other enhancements are the new light fan case and twin annular pre-swirl combustor intended to lower NOx emissions. Results are a 12% lower fuel and 20% lower maintenance costs.


Cabin enhancements
Most significant improvement in the cabin is the use of natural light. 6 Rooftop windows provide natural light and a view on the blue sky for all. The roof window can be filtered, dimmed or shut completely by the crew. New luggage bins offer 15% more space and form a naturally integrated part of the cabin. New side panels give passengers a few extra inches of cabin width.

Backgrounds
The A320EP (Enhanced Performance) is developed to meet increased market demand for addition range and seats. The A320EP is a stretched, re-engined A320 incorporating many improvements developed over the last decennium. Investments in the design are estimated at E1.2 billion.

Click to enlarge
http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00007055.jpg

Artist: Henry Lam, great! http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/



Folks, all completely made up, any kind of relation with reality is purely coincidental  Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
A319XFW
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Folks, all completely made up, any kind of relation with reality is purely coincidental

It must be getting late in Holland and you're starting to hallucinate or are really bored...! Big grin
I would disprove your claims, but it's getting a bit late and I'm off to bed!  yawn 
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7039
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Folks, all completely made up, any kind of relation with reality is purely coincidental

Can I nickname it the Airbus Binliner.....
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
boysteve
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:50 am

That's great, but, err, what is the point exactly?
 
norcal
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):

I don't understand the point of the stretch? Won't airlines want to keep the current amount of seats in their A320s? Everything else sounds great and these improvements will clearly put it beyond the 737 unless Boeing has some magic up its sleeve (doubt it though the 737 has pretty much seen all the improvement possible). Does Airbus have an official press release yet or is this something that has been leaked?
 
stirling
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 4):
Does Airbus have an official press release yet or is this something that has been leaked?

He was joking....it is not real. Still, some good ideas.
Delete this User
 
norcal
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 5):
He was joking....it is not real. Still, some good ideas

Oh ok, yeah I agree these are some very good ideas. The winglets alone would probably cut 1-3% in few burn.
 
mham001
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:14 am

If they could get 12% better fuel burn just from the engines, we'd see a brand new 737 in no time.
 
azza40
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:18 am

hehe, i should post things like this on a.net, im on modified airliner photos all the time. i see a great mod, like henry lams A320EP, and a week later (not a week on this one, bout 3 days) it is one here!

Aaron  sly 
Not been on here for a good 2/3 years!
 
DfwRevolution
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Investments in the design are estimated at E1.2 billion.

Why invest such a large sum in an aircraft that is selling at record volumes and would likely be replaced in its entirety within just a few years?
 
azza40
Posts: 1032
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Why invest such a large sum in an aircraft that is selling at record volumes and would likely be replaced in its entirety within just a few years?

they arent really making it, it is a modification. hence the website where he found it, www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos

Aaron  sly 
Not been on here for a good 2/3 years!
 
DfwRevolution
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Azza40 (Reply 10):
they arent really making it, it is a modification. hence the website where he found it,

Good grief... I totally overlooked that. What ever was I thinking  Yeah sure
 
EddieDude
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
New elliptical winglets are fitted

On the subject of elliptical winglets, I read a couple of years ago in the AM in-flight magazine that Boeing was considering a new type of device to place on the wingtips to maximize aerodynamics in future models. The illustration on the magazine showed a spiral kind of device in lieu of blended winglets or wingtip fences. AM's magazine also mentioned that several airlines around the world, including AM, were collaborating with Boeing in the research of this and other types of aerodynamic enhancers. Has anyone heard anything about this recently?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Johnny
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:48 am

Keesje,

i heard that a lot of coffee-shops in your country were closed.Can´t believe that after reading your thread... Wink

Johnny  Smile
 
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antoniemey
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:46 am

Cute joke. All I can say about the image is DAMN those winglets are big!

Still... might be a good idea for Airbus to consider...
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Engines
The EP´s engines are CFM56-9´s, an evolutionairy development of the CFM56-5 and -7 versions. Most significant difference is the 10% larger fan cross section, resulting in a 20% higher by-pass ratio. The fan has a 3-D woven composite fan and a reduced number of blades. Other enhancements are the new light fan case and twin annular pre-swirl combustor intended to lower NOx emissions. Results are a 12% lower fuel and 20% lower maintenance costs.

Keesje,

First, the idea of a much lower fuel burn quick release A320 has its merits. (Man, I'm agreeing with you... I knew I shouldn't have had that 6th cup of coffee...) However, I will point out a fan diameter change while required for fuel economy isn't trivial. Although if such a larger fan could fit with the A320 current landing gear (only if the stretch allowed moving the engine forward and up: a center of gravity/wing aerodynamics consideration) then IAE would also put on a larger fan. Trust me, that group isn't behind GE in fan tech.  Wink

Don't forget in (IIRC) 2008 the IAE V2500 gets a fuel burn reduction.
current V2527 TSFC=.575
CFM-56-5b (most fuel efficient CFM-56)=.596

Now, 12% would be HUGE! TSFC < 0.500 in a single isle.  cloudnine 
Sorry, but a fan change alone won't do it. (More like 3% drop in fuel burn.)

Add contra rotation (but that wouldn't be a CFM-56...) drop another 3 to 4%
New High spool with a 2nd high turbine, drop fuel burn another 4%
Optimize the low spool... another 2%. So 12% is doable. But only by throwing in all the new technology. Ok... a GTF could drop fuel burn even more.  spin  Damn it Pratt or IAE, launch it!  hissyfit 

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
New elliptical winglets are fitted,

I love the idea... but needs further proving. I'm afraid I haven't seen any data and thus cannot comment further about the risk to benifits.

The attention this gets only points out that at $70+/bbl oil, something needs to change!

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
redflyer
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
6 Rooftop windows provide natural light and a view on the blue sky for all

In addition to some of the other drawbacks pointed out by others, wouldn't these six large windows add a lot of weight? Not to mention the fact that you're going to lose a lot of insulative properties as well. And all for some additional lighting? Seems to me some of the newer LED bulbs placed in the cabin ceiling would be more efficient and practical.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
charvett
Posts: 81
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:23 pm

Some of this thread was discussed long ago. I posted and still stick
to Airbus Industrie for this: A-321 fuselage, beefed and straightened
wings with a 5ft tip extension, four engines (IAE variations). What do you
think?
 
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antoniemey
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Proposing the A320 enhanced performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting Charvett (Reply 18):
four engines (IAE variations)

That right there would make it inefficient compared to its competitors. Next up?
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
norcal
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The aircraft is stretched 3.5m compared to the A320, 3.5m short of the A321. New elliptical winglets are fitted, the fuselage stretch provides airlines room to fit an additional 4 seatrows or 24 seats at 34 inch seat pitch compared to the A320.

Didn't B6 want a stretched A320? Something like an A320.5? Hypothetically speaking would 3.5m be enough to satisfy their need?
 
LawnDart
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 1):
I would disprove your claims, but it's getting a bit late and I'm off to bed!

Nice little hit-and-run statement.

Well, make sure you get plenty of rest and are nice and sharp in the morning, because I for one would love to see how you "disprove" a fictional enhancement anyway.

Some of the points brought up in the A320 Enhanced are actually rather intriguing...
 
charvett
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:30 am

About four engine's inefficiency... I know I know... but I'm
referring to a proyect similar to the A-330/340 one.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:07 am

Right, have had some sleep, so here goes Big grin

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The aircraft is stretched 3.5m compared to the A320, 3.5m short of the A321

Why stretch when there are already 4 versions of different fuselage length.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Most significant difference is the 10% larger fan cross section,

As Lightsaber already said - a 10% increase in fan diametre will not only affect the fan, but might also affect the landing gear. Assuming this, you'd need a certain clearance from the ground. This would mean you might need a longer landing gear. There are a few problems with this.
The space needed to put it in isn't there, so you'd need a shortening mechanism, which is a big no-no as it increases complexity.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
6 Rooftop windows provide natural light and a view on the blue sky for all.

As already said above, windows increase stress concentration. You'd also have to re-new the tooling for the panels. And re-route the wiring that goes up there.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The A320EP is a stretched, re-engined A320 incorporating many improvements developed over the last decennium. Investments in the design are estimated at E1.2 billion.

And here you say why it's just made-up and won't be done. Also resource (read engineers) to do such modifications (especially on the L/G) aren't there.

All nice ideas, but at the moment not do-able. And why change a well-selling product, when a new one is somewhere in the near future.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 7):
If they could get 12% better fuel burn just from the engines, we'd see a brand new 737 in no time.

Those would be some impressive engines. Goodluck doing it just with a fan. We'll be seeing a new 737 in no time anyhow the way it sounds.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 14):
Cute joke. All I can say about the image is DAMN those winglets are big!

Still... might be a good idea for Airbus to consider...

No kidding. He should go to Toulouse and help them out.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Add contra rotation (but that wouldn't be a CFM-56...) drop another 3 to 4%
New High spool with a 2nd high turbine, drop fuel burn another 4%
Optimize the low spool... another 2%. So 12% is doable. But only by throwing in all the new technology. Ok... a GTF could drop fuel burn even more. spin Damn it Pratt or IAE, launch it! hissyfit

I hope IAE (which includes Pratt) will come up with a competitive engine for the next generation A320. My guess is CFM will cook up a bleedless, counter-rotating all new cored engine for the Y3, which could likely be made bleed for A320 (airbus prefer bleed systems, apparently), IAE seems to have a better relationship with Airbus than with Boeing, who is very loyal to CFM.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
keesje
Posts: 8760
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):
Why invest such a large sum in an aircraft that is selling at record volumes

Additional marketshare, capturing major operators when they don´t have an alternative.

Quoting Azza40 (Reply 10):
hence the website where he found it

Henry was kind enough to create it based on my spec.

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12):
On the subject of elliptical winglets, I read a couple of years ago in the AM in-flight magazine

Airbus will test them soon. Winglet Technologies designed them.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...7/205890/A320+tests++winglets.html

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Sorry, but a fan change alone won't do it.

True. It is a combination of introducing a variety of new technologies on a not really young engine. Shape, pressure ratios, 3D flow optimalizations etc..

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles.../199908/Engine+makers+gear+up.html

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Ok... a GTF could drop fuel burn even more.

You Pratt guys sure have a long breath   On Pratt fan technology, they did the GP7200.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
The attention this gets only points out that at $70+/bbl oil, something needs to change!

Right on. Circumstances have changed, business cases too.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 16):
wouldn't these six large windows add a lot of weight?

The aircraft has more then 80 windows. Recently I had a complete cut out 747 window set in my hands. 35 yrs old design; amazingly light! Composites are able to make them even lighter, the rules have changed.
http://www.boeing.com/randy/images/787_window_lg.jpg

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 22):
Why stretch when there are already 4 versions of different fuselage length.

I guess DC9 & 737 showed the way. It fills a big gab & provides natural growth & network flexibility.

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 22):
This would mean you might need a longer landing gear.

Wing pylon needs modification anyway (moving cg, light fan/casing). Ground clearance is tight but not as tight as e.g. with the 737NG.

[Edited 2006-04-18 22:52:33]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
redflyer
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):
The aircraft has more then 80 windows. Recently I had a complete cut out 747 window set in my hands. 35 yrs old design; amazingly light! Composites are able to make them even lighter.

Yes, but those 80 windows are relatively small. Put in big windows and the weight increases substantially. Why do you think an airplane is built with a bunch of small windows? It would make more sense to simply put in fewer larger ones. It's a weight issue.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):
Wing pylon needs modification anyway

I don't think they'll want to do that after they just did it.
 
keesje
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:26 pm

Pressure from the market is rising on both Boeing and Airbus to come up with improvements on thier established B737 / A320 lines. They put it on at Pratt, GE and RR.

GE is now testing the tech56 package on their 747 testbed. Tests on A320 / 737 are scheduled later this year.



Project TECH56 will provide operators with longer time on wing, about 5% lower maintenance costs, 15-20% lower oxides of nitrogen emissions and improved fuel burn. Service entry is scheduled in 2007.

LEAP56 is a more open radical improvement program, for the next 20 years.

A general question:
How large is the chance Airbus will not upgrade the A320 series after the first 20 years?

[Edited 2006-04-19 16:41:59]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):

True. It is a combination of introducing a variety of new technologies on a not really young engine. Shape, pressure ratios, 3D flow optimalizations etc..

FYI, "Shape" usually involves a new casting. While new pressure vessel castings have already occured on the CFM-56... its an expensive step to take. And the previous casting design changes weren't to improve the engine preformance, it was more to cut manufacturing costs! (No flowpath changes which are *really* required to improve the CFM-56.) There are about 3% of improvements that wouldn't be too hard to get in the CFM-56. But for the level you suggest, it would require contra-rotation, a new flowpath, and going to GE's new blade concepts which are so radically different they couldn't be properly retrofitted.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):
Right on. Circumstances have changed, business cases too.

 checkmark  I keep agreeing with you... what's in this new coffee...  Wink

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
GE is now testing the tech56 package on their 747 testbed. Tests on A320 / 737 are scheduled later this year.

Yep! Don't forget IAE is working for a IIRC 2008 entry into service for their V2500 upgrade.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
A general question:
How large is the chance Airbus will not upgrade the A320 series after the first 20 years?

Depends on what you call "an upgrade." Besides the new winglets that have been discussed elsewhere, there is evidence of a MTOW increase in the works. But if you're talking anything major (a la this thread), the rumor mill suggest more of an approach toward a successor.

As Keesje noted, with composites, the game has changed with windows. There is no reason a new larger window design with a composite frame couldn't be retrofitted to existing designs. One could keep the weight about neutral while dramatically improving the experience.  spin 

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):
On Pratt fan technology, they did the GP7200.

While Pratt did a decent fan on the GP7200, the reality is Pratt has been focusing on the GTF for so long that GE has a slightly better fan for the higher mach #'s a non-geared fan sees. I've ranted enough on how the work distribution on the GP7200 should have been redistributed many a time before, so I won't repeat. (e.g., going to a Pratt high turbine and a GE fan would cut the engine fuel burn by 1% by my estimate!)

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
A319XFW
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RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
How large is the chance Airbus will not upgrade the A320 series after the first 20 years?



Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
Depends on what you call "an upgrade."

Like Lightsaber says, it depends on what you mean by "an upgrade".
There are always upgrades being done on the aircraft. Some you'll notice (e.g. winglets) some you won't, like a software upgrade etc.
Some upgrades are done/proposed by suppliers (e.g. engine manufacturers) some by Airbus like the friction stir-welded fuselage parts on the A318.

But if you mean a major upgrade all at once, like you're proposing, I'd say that isn't going to happen.
 
flydreamliner
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 24):
Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Ok... a GTF could drop fuel burn even more.

You Pratt guys sure have a long breath On Pratt fan technology, they did the GP7200.

Seems to me while Pratt has been seeking a miracle with GTF, GE, and now RR have been working on revolutionary new fan designs (like that used in GE90-115B) that ultimately end up giving as great, or better gains.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
How large is the chance Airbus will not upgrade the A320 series after the first 20 years?

My guess is it will get a minor update. New engines, updated cockpit, some weight savings. Wings will get new winglets, maybe very minor upgrades, fuselage remains basically unchanged. It's a gamble, keep commonality with the old succesful design, save development costs, but have to compete with a ground up competitor that will innevitably be more advanced, being ground up designed more recently and making use of new technologies from the dreamliner project.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
keesje
Posts: 8760
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Proposing The A320 Enhanced Performance

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
improvements that wouldn't be too hard to get in the CFM-56. But for the level you suggest,

The 12% lower fuel burn estimate I mentioned was supposed to be for the complete aircraft at a per seat basis. I put it in the wrong place & saw it too late.  Smile Thnx for pointing out what is / isn´t doable in your opinion.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 28):
Pratt has been focusing on the GTF for so long

Will the GTF be available for >200 pass narrowbodies? Seems a challenge to develop an optimal reliable gearbox for that & 120 seaters..

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 30):
My guess is it will get a minor update. New engines, updated cockpit, some weight savings. Wings will get new winglets

New engines is not minor I think.

Another engine improvement I considered to include were the negatively scarfed intakes to reduce noise on the ground. Not so long ago tested in the SILENCE(R) program. I have howevers doubt about those.

The CFM56s are pretty silent already & perhaps one has to pay a price in terms of weight, max angle of attack and aerodynamic efficiency. However I never found any results / conclusions, so I dont know..

http://picavia.foxalpha.com/moyenformat/0304/003605.jpg

[Edited 2006-04-20 00:28:46]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway