ydahman
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Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:34 am

Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet? How many of them is it expecting to sell within the next few years and what airlines are potential customers of this product?

Thanks
 
chrisa330
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:46 am

Boeing has sold 35 to date (don't know where you got none)

Air Canada 12
Air India 8
Emirates 10
EVA Air 3
Pakistan Int'l Airlines 2
Total 35
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet?

Huh? Please go here:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/orders

And do a "Standard Report" for the 777 model. You will find 35 have been sold to date, all but 5 coming just last year.

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
what airlines are potential customers of this product?

The most likely candidates to sign up next (in my personal opinion of liklihood):

Singapore Airlines
Qantas
Etihad Airways
Air China
China Southern
Jet Airways
Vietnam Airlines
Qatar Airways
British Airways

The top 5 could all happen this year.

Regards,

Hamlet69
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:27 pm

Probably because of the engine choices...there isn't any. If you want a 772LR or a 773ER, you have to have the GE engine. That's fine if you're a pre-existing 777 customer already flying GEs on your airplanes such as Continental, but if you're a RR-powered 777 customer like American & Delta, you're kinda screwed. AA threw a temper tantrum over the GE exclusive deal with Boeing...AA wanted more than one engine choice for the aircraft, should they need the 772LR in the future. Regards.
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zeke
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 1):
Boeing has sold 35 to date (don't know where you got none)

Air Canada 12
Air India 8
Emirates 10
EVA Air 3
Pakistan Int'l Airlines 2
Total 35

How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?
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SNATH
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?

35 LRs and 23 LRFs (AC 2x, AF 5x, EK 8x, and Avion Group 2 orders of 4x) according to the Boeing WWW site.

Tony
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ikramerica
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?

Come on, do your own research.  Wink

Those are all 772LR.

And "777LR" is actually the family of jets including the 772LR, 777F and 773ER. It is the "longer range" family.

Boeing has booked:

35 772LR
189 773ER
23 777F

One would assume that the family has already moved well past break-even, and each model will be past break-even relatively soon, though I honestly don't see a ton of 772LR sales beyond 2009 as the 789 will EIS in 2010. But 777F and 773ER sales should continue for a long while, at least until the 787-10 proves itself and airlines see whether it is more economical to fly it over the 773ER.
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zeke
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting SNATH (Reply 5):
35 LRs and 23 LRFs (AC 2x, AF 5x, EK 8x, and Avion Group 2 orders of 4x) according to the Boeing WWW site.

Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
But 777F and 773ER sales should continue for a long while, at least until the 787-10 proves itself and airlines see whether it is more economical to fly it over the 773ER.

Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?
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zvezda
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?

I don't think he meant "replace" but rather choose rather than. Some airlines may choose the B787-10 rather than the B777-300ER.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 3):
Probably because of the engine choices...there isn't any. If you want a 772LR or a 773ER, you have to have the GE engine. That's fine if you're a pre-existing 777 customer already flying GEs on your airplanes such as Continental, but if you're a RR-powered 777 customer like American & Delta, you're kinda screwed.

You could say the same about A345/6. Whilst its preferable that Airlines have a choice the reality is that the market was not there to develope more than 1 choice.

GE being the sole choice has not hurt sales as what was perceived. EK opted for huge numbers of 777X (Rolls Royce) namely 54 77W, 12 777LR and 8 77F and Singapore 19 77W (Rolls Royce) and Cathay Pacific 16 77W (also Rolls Royce)

Given the follow up orders from EK (several times) and likely follow up orders from SQ and CX I don't think they have a problem with the 'Big' GEs which at this stage have had an amazing trouble free introduction into service that given the new high thrust territory that the 115B has charted is nothing short of incredible. Both the GE90 and Trent 800 had a lot of teething troubles on earlier 777s but it seems GE is on top of it with the 115B.

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 3):
AA threw a temper tantrum over the GE exclusive deal with Boeing...AA wanted more than one engine choice for the aircraft, should they need the 772LR in the future. Regards.

Given the fact that 154 777s were sold in 2005 compared to 15 A340 and all except 3 or 4 of those were sold with GE Engines I'm sure Boeing and GE are deeply regretting their exclusivity deal..... Yeah Right!!!!!
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

No problem (it's actually cool to find out these things anyway...). BR has indeed ordered 3 LRs. There were some rumors on a.net some time ago that they were having second thoughts and might change the order to another model (LRFs were mentioned). But I haven't heard anything about that since...

Tony
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Hamlet69
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
There were some rumors on a.net some time ago that they were having second thoughts and might change the order to another model (LRFs were mentioned).

There indeed has been a lot of uncertainty over the BR -200LR's, particularly when they delayed the delivery of these models over 18 months. However, recent rumors suggest that instead of taking -200F's instead, BR will actually order more -200LR's. . .

We'll see what happens,

Hamlet69
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ikramerica
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
I don't think he meant "replace" but rather choose rather than. Some airlines may choose the B787-10 rather than the B777-300ER.

Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

Of course the real numbers are all lower, but if the 787-10 can carry a real 3 class load of 300 pax (9Y) vs. 330 for the 773ER, it just depends on what airlines want to do. It's really a wait and see game, and nobody is going to not buy 773ERs between now and then just in case.

The 787-10 is a 772 killer (and in 9Y, the 789 will help kill the 772 as well), and though it won't completely kill the 773ER, the 787-10 may put a big dent in the sales. We'll have to see what the final numbers are like. It's a long way off, so the 773ER will sell well for a while.

One can expect any future Y3 would notch in at 380 pax min if the 787-10 is offered at 330.

The 777F should sell well even if the 773ER starts waning, because there isn't another plane in the 777F class right now. The 330F will be a great plane, but it is a different class of freighter, as is the 748F and the A380F.
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Glom
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:15 pm

I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.
 
monteycarlos
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.

I guess the answer to that is 'slot scarcity'.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
zvezda
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):

I guess the answer to that is 'slot scarcity'.

No, there are plenty of B777 slots for 2008 delivery and I believe still a few for late 2007 delivery. I think the answers are three:
a) a lot of the demand for B777s was satisfied by orders placed last year,
b) the B787, especially the B787-10, is a new alternative, and
c) three months is not a long enough time to draw much of a conclusion.

I can imagine a post like: Boeing didn't get any orders last week. Not for the new SuperJumbo, not for the B777, not for the B787 or B767, not even any for the B737! Oh My Dog!!! Can Boeing recover? Will Airbus be motivated to innovate once Boeing are out of business? Spotting will be so boring when all the aircraft flying are Airbii.

Give it more than just one quarter. If Boeing don't sell any B777s for a year, then you can start worrying about the program.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:11 pm

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.

Last year they sold 8, all follow on orders, by the end of Q1.

Things picked up a little after that...  Wink
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N1120A
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:30 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

They launched the 772LR along with PK, way before the 777F was launched. Initially, they thought they would need it for TPE-JFK, as the 77W hadn't had all of its range upgrades yet. Now, they know they can fully load a 77W and fly it reliably between the two cities. Still, given what has come out about the operating economics of the 772LR on trips longer than 5000 or so nautical miles, it isn't a surprise that they actually ordered more of the type.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

330 pax in 3 class? I don't think so. In their old, less up to date 3 class configuration with 10Y on the larger 772ER, EK carries 303. In the new configuration, they fly 283, also with 10Y but with fewer F and C seats because of the greater space they take up. In 9Y, the 787-10 will have a shot at 250-260 3-class. Also, other than Boeing's BS numbers (much like Airbus with their 380 seat 3-class A346), I don't know where you found 365 for a 3-class 773ER since Boeing doesn't market the 773ER as a 10Y aircraft. The best indicator of normal passenger density in a 3 class layout is AF, and they fly their 77Ws with 310 seats.
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monteycarlos
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:16 pm

Zvezda, I'd like to say you have a point but really I think Boeing is hurting in the slots available for the B777. Remember firm orders aside, they have sold a heap of slots to carriers as options which are now unavailable to carriers wanting the aircraft.

I do agree on the issue of it being the first quarter, and I am by no means suggesting that anyone for one minute believes Boeing won't sell 777's this year. I think simply no carrier is ready to commit to buying new widebody jets in this financial year when most CAPEX budgets will be getting close to zero.

Mid-year is my bet for these orders, but I think we can expect announcements sooner.
It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:25 pm

NZ has options for 772LR and has said that they are looking at them, if they do get them they will order at least 4.
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intothinair
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

Of course the real numbers are all lower, but if the 787-10 can carry a real 3 class load of 300 pax (9Y) vs. 330 for the 773ER, it just depends on what airlines want to do. It's really a wait and see game, and nobody is going to not buy 773ERs between now and then just in case.

The 787-10 is a 772 killer (and in 9Y, the 789 will help kill the 772 as well), and though it won't completely kill the 773ER, the 787-10 may put a big dent in the sales. We'll have to see what the final numbers are like. It's a long way off, so the 773ER will sell well for a while.

One can expect any future Y3 would notch in at 380 pax min if the 787-10 is offered at 330.

The 777F should sell well even if the 773ER starts waning, because there isn't another plane in the 777F class right now. The 330F will be a great plane, but it is a different class of freighter, as is the 748F and the A380F.

Perfectaly summed up. With fuel prices at $70 per barrel, airlines want more efficient planes, and having a 787-10 with 35 seats less than the 773ER, most, if not almost all airlines would go for the 787-10. Thus
787-8= 767-300 killer
787-9=772A/ER/to a certain extent LR
787-10(If built)= 773ER killer/further 772ER/LR killer

If the 787-10 gets built, we can basically say, bye bye 777 sales! apart from a few follow on orders, and some 777F sales as this jet has no competitiors right now. If the 787-10 does not get built, i could see minimum another 200 773ER sales, and it wouldn't completely destroy 772LR sales either! I'd hate to see such a young plane as the 777 get destroyed by an even newer plane just (773ER/772LR) under 10 years after their first flights.

cheers, Konstantin G.
 
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet?

Not only have they sold plenty, one or two LR models are already in service.
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
And "777LR" is actually the family of jets including the 772LR, 777F and 773ER. It is the "longer range" family.

Not quite correct. Initially, and I believe still the case, the 772LR &, 773ER, are catagorized as the 777 "C" market group. The 777F was added to the "C" group as this aircraft was a new development. The "B" market includes the 772ER and 773, and then the "A" market includes the standard 777-200. The 777LR is the designation for the 777-200LR.
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N1120A
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 20):
Perfectaly summed up. With fuel prices at $70 per barrel, airlines want more efficient planes, and having a 787-10 with 35 seats less than the 773ER, most, if not almost all airlines would go for the 787-10.

Again, there is no way that airplane will have only 35 fewer seats unless long haul premium class products take about 8 steps backward.
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N328KF
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 22):
Not quite correct. Initially, and I believe still the case, the 772LR &, 773ER, are catagorized as the 777 "C" market group. The 777F was added to the "C" group as this aircraft was a new development. The "B" market includes the 772ER and 773, and then the "A" market includes the standard 777-200. The 777LR is the designation for the 777-200LR.

"A/B/C-market" is merely a range designation and nothing more.

A-market: 7,200-9,200km — 777-200, 777-300
B-market: 10,800-14,250km — 777-200ER, 777-300ER
C-market: 14,800km+ — 777-200LR

The 777 Freighter does not play into this, as freighters are not categorized in the same manner. If you did categorize it according to the above list, it would be A-market.

As to "777LR," Ikramerica is right and you are wrong:

Boeing Longer-Range 777s: Flying Farther and Increasing the Value of the 777 Family.

Additionally, the 777LR family was known as 777X for a time.

[Edited 2006-04-18 16:49:56]
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Boeing Nut
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:07 am

OK, I see my mistake now. That's actually the first time I've seen 777LR used to group the longer range 777 family of aircraft. I, like many others I'm sure, immediately associate the 777LR designation to identify the 777-200LR as it is the only one with the "LR" designation and not the family. Up to now, I've seen 777NG, but never 777LR.

And uh, not to nit pick, but the link you provided kinda backs me up a little as I did not see 777LR to describe the family in that particular article.  cheeky 

Regards
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:11 am

Like the 767-400ER, the 777-200LR is a niche aircraft. It was made specifically for airlines that need such great range.
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ikramerica
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 25):
That's actually the first time I've seen 777LR used to group the longer range 777 family of aircraft.

Yes, it is sort of confusing, but I've seen boeing themselves call the three jets the 777LR, while the 777-200LR is called just that.
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texfly101
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:20 am

I wouldn't worry about 777LR sales. I would consider the 777 family orders as indicative of the health of the 777 line. The big spurt of orders from non-US legacy airlines last year is naturally followed by a lag this year, sales never being normally a steady state thing. I would definitely say that the overwhelming majority of the orders were for fuel efficient aircraft like the 777 or the A330. After that, I think that 777 airline orders are reflective of several different aspects. The first is that the traditionally largest sector, the domestic US market is still struggling as the legacy carriers shake out their money woes so there has not been the orders from them as the overall market recovers from 9/11. Most of them have been dumping older, less fuel efficient aircraft rather than ordering new aircraft. The second is that the market is watching closely the 787-10 development. And that is not to say that the 772 orders will go all to the 787-10. Just as we saw from the 787 launch, the 767 line actually enjoyed a spurt of orders as airlines both wanted to fill future needs with aircraft they currently fly and also got a good price as B wanted to keep the line going until the 787 filled the slot. Also, keep in mind what has happened with the 747, the freighter now being the dominant aircraft over the passenger 747. The 777F is just beginning to be introduced and will probably grow to be significant portion of the 777 orders just as has the 747F. The 772LR is basically a 772 that has belly tanks and an enhanced landing gear, so it isn't really that different from a manufacturing standpoint. B doesn't care which model is in the line as long as that line is producing a profit. Buy a 772LR, 772ER, 773ER or 777F, no problem, just keep the line humming along with whatever version is called for. So having these options, like a 772LR, just adds to the overall line production, even if it isn't selling in large numbers. Airlines love 777 and I think it will be produced until the next family of aircraft fills the skies. The metal tube and wing will definitely be replaced by a leap of technology when we see the blended body designs that A and B are looking at for the 2020+ time frame. Add in that the engine guys are looking at alternative fuels and it will be an interesting time to fly.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 2):
The most likely candidates to sign up next (in my personal opinion of liklihood):

Singapore Airlines
Qantas
Etihad Airways
Air China
China Southern
Jet Airways
Vietnam Airlines
Qatar Airways
British Airways

The top 5 could all happen this year.

Why would VN need this a/c... Hell what they want to do fly SGN-JFK n/s?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 29):
Why would VN need this a/c... Hell what they want to do fly SGN-JFK n/s?

They're already buying the 787-8, and it isn't that far off of the -200LR range.
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zvezda
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 20):
Perfectaly summed up. With fuel prices at $70 per barrel, airlines want more efficient planes, and having a 787-10 with 35 seats less than the 773ER, most, if not almost all airlines would go for the 787-10.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Again, there is no way that airplane will have only 35 fewer seats unless long haul premium class products take about 8 steps backward.

See Reply #85 by Widebodyphotog here: 747-8 Model Turning Heads (by Jacobin777 Apr 14 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 30):
They're already buying the 787-8, and it isn't that far off of the -200LR range.

What do you consider far off?

788=8,000-8,500NM
772=9,420NM
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saturn5
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet?

That is simply impossible - in order to launch an aircraft derivative they must have at least a client or two lined up. Consider it a mathematical certainity.
 
SNATH
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 33):
That is simply impossible - in order to launch an aircraft derivative they must have at least a client or two lined up. Consider it a mathematical certainity.

Actually, the B772LR / B773ER were launched without launch customers, as you can read here in this press release:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_000229a.html

And it was AF who placed the first order (for the -300ER) 8 months later:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2000/news_release_001004d.html

Tony
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saturn5
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 34):
Actually, the B772LR / B773ER were launched without launch customers, as you can read here in this press release

Sorry, but this press release says nothing about launch customers whether there were any or not. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean that there was no launch customers or that some were not lined up 'behind the scenes'.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 35):
Sorry, but this press release says nothing about launch customers whether there were any or not. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean that there was no launch customers or that some were not lined up 'behind the scenes'.

I would say that the common understanding was that Air France was the launch customer, but for political reasons (pressure to buy Airbus), AF let JL be classified as such, even though AF took first delivery.
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SNATH
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 35):

Sorry, but this press release says nothing about launch customers whether there were any or not. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean that there was no launch customers or that some were not lined up 'behind the scenes'.

True but, typically, when a plane is launched the launch customers are also announced (remember the B787 launch?). I do stand by my claim: when the B772LR/B773ER were launched nobody had signed on the dotted line. The orders came later.

Tony
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N1120A
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 31):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Again, there is no way that airplane will have only 35 fewer seats unless long haul premium class products take about 8 steps backward.

See Reply #85 by Widebodyphotog here:

As much as I respect WBP, he is wrong here.
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aerohottie
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR

Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
NZ has options for 772LR and has said that they are looking at them, if they do get them they will order at least 4.

I would say that NZ would be well suited to use the 773ER (8 to 10) to replace the 744's, get 7772LR's (6ish) for new long markets such as AKL - NYC/ORD etc, and then a mixture of 787(bout 20ish) models to fully replace the 767's.

Would leave a fleet of -

7773ER - 8-10
7772LR - 6ish
787-?? - 20ish
The remainder of the jet fleet would consist of A320 family aircraft.
And of course the 777's would be 9Y, 787's 8Y... with premium being 9Y+ and 8Y+, but with extra legroom, as it is in the 772ER's currently.
What?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 39):
I would say that NZ would be well suited to use the 773ER (8 to 10) to replace the 744's, get 7772LR's (6ish) for new long markets such as AKL - NYC/ORD etc, and then a mixture of 787(bout 20ish) models to fully replace the 767's.

Unless NZ wants to start up a 3rd daily LHR flight I think the 744's will be replaced by 748's. Still possible for NZ to have both 772LR and 773ER in the fleet, thats the beauty of the 777 is they are so similar it doesn't really cost any more for the addition type (except for GE engines instead of RR).
Of course there is always the 787. NZ has so far ordered the 788 (to replace 763ER). If nz doesn't get 772LR I can see them getting an LR version of the 787 instead.
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zvezda
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
As much as I respect WBP, he is wrong here.

As much as I respect you, Widebodyphotog's analysis makes perfect sense to me. All I'm seeing from you on this one is hand waving. You need to make a better case.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:09 am

Doesn't PK already have 2 772LR's?

-JD
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intothinair
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
As much as I respect WBP, he is wrong here.

Could you please back up your statement with some information  Smile
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:57 am

Wow, we've gotten a lot more comments on this thread than I expected.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity

No, the 787-10 won't be nearly as large as the 777-300ER. Think of it as a straight replacement for the 777-200ER. It might be a seat row or two longer, but that's about it. It will not have either the -300ER's passenger capacity nor uplift capabilities. OTOH, what is truly amazing is that it probably will have roughly the same amount of cargo volume, if not more! (though once again, payload capacity will be smaller)

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):
NZ has options for 772LR and has said that they are looking at them

Just FYI, it has been revealed that NZ has applied for ExIm financing for at least 3 773ERs. . .

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 20):
787-8= 767-300 killer
787-9=772A/ER/to a certain extent LR
787-10(If built)= 773ER killer/further 772ER/LR killer

This is simply not correct. The -9 will be slightly smaller than the -200ER, and the -10 slightly larger. For more, see above.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 22):
the 772LR &, 773ER, are catagorized as the 777 "C" market group. The 777F was added to the "C" group as this aircraft was a new development. The "B" market includes the 772ER and 773, and then the "A" market includes the standard 777-200.

No. According to Boeing's original family plan for the 777 (as outlined in the now infamous "A" "B" and "C" categories), the breakdown would be this:

A
777-200
777-300

B
777-200ER
777-300ER

C
777-200LR

The 777-200F wouldn't really fit anywhere, as that original map was for passenger aircraft.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 25):
That's actually the first time I've seen 777LR used to group the longer range 777 family

It's been that way for a little while, so I'm actually surprised you've never seen it. BTW - just a bit of trivia - before the "official" designations were assigned, Boeing termed the now -300ER, the -300LR.

Quoting Boeing nut (Reply 25):
Up to now, I've seen 777NG, but never 777LR.

. . . which is truly incorrect. Though you may be able to term the A340-500/-600 "NG"'s (stretched, reworked wing, upgraded cockpit, new interior, etc.), the 777LR's are far from being the "Next Generation."

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 29):
Why would VN need this a/c... Hell what they want to do fly SGN-JFK n/s?

You said it, I didn't. . .  Wink I can tell you that VN has been looking at the -200LR for a couple of years now.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 34):
Actually, the B772LR / B773ER were launched without launch customers, as you can read here in this press release

. . . were they?  Wink

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 35):
or that some were not lined up 'behind the scenes'.

Hmmmm, that would never happen, would it?  Wink


Regards,

Hamlet69
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CRGsFuture
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:01 am

Hamlet did PK get their 772LR's yet or is the comming up shortly?
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 39):
I would say that NZ would be well suited to use the 773ER (8 to 10) to replace the 744's

They are operating at about 80% load factor with the -400's; I can't believe they would reduce capacity. It's not as if they can increase their frequency to LHR easily. Landing slots at LHR and 7x weekly constraint out of LAX. Afterall the LAX-LHR loads are pretty significant, apparently. I can see -300ER's as replacements for -200ER on routes where the load factors significantly exceed 80%. This might mean on certain days to SFO, NRT, PVG and SIN a 300ER might be substituted. I agree the -200LR has possibilities and if more -200's were to be purchased it is likely that the -200LR would be selected.
If LAX had to go 3X daily then the -300ER is a possibilty for 2 of these flights.
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intothinair
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 44):
No, the 787-10 won't be nearly as large as the 777-300ER. Think of it as a straight replacement for the 777-200ER. It might be a seat row or two longer, but that's about it. It will not have either the -300ER's passenger capacity

Hamlet 69!
What you are saying(As much as i'd want it to be true) is simply incorrect.
Take a look at this...

Assuming the B787-10 will be 20 feet longer than the B787-9 (as the B787-9 is 20 feet longer than the B787-8), then the cabin floor areas are:

B787-9: 257.4 sq meters
A350-900: 262.9 sq meters
A340-500: 275.7 sq meters
B777-200: 279.0 sq meters
B787-10: 291.0 sq meters
A340-600: 314.2 sq meters
B777-300: 330.4 sq meters

As most airlines will put 9Y seating into their 787s, the 787-9 will be only marginally smaller than the 772ER. The 787-10 will have around 30-35 seats less than the 773ER(assuming 9Y seating for 787) and with oil prices being at $70 per barrel, almost every airline would rather choose the slightly smaller and more efficient 787-10!
If you want the full explanation as to why the 787 would kill the 777 please go down to reply# 111 in this thread 747-8 Model Turning Heads (by Jacobin777 Apr 14 2006 in Civil Aviation)

I'm sorry, but its just hard to ignore these facts!

cheers, Konstantin G.
 
aerohottie
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 46):
They are operating at about 80% load factor with the -400's; I can't believe they would reduce capacity.

What do you think the 773ER capacity would be for NZ, esp considering NZ managed to get 313 seats in the 772ER comfortably. perhaps the 773ER wouldnt be that much of reduction from the 744 at 390ish. If there is a marked reduction in capacity AKL-LAX-LHR and AKL-HKG-LHR could continue with a 744, and have two more daily 777 services AKL-LAX. I'm fairly sure NZ will be 8Y in 787 Y.
What?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:35 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
As much as I respect WBP, he is wrong here.



Quoting Hamlet69 (Reply 44):
No, the 787-10 won't be nearly as large as the 777-300ER. Think of it as a straight replacement for the 777-200ER.

Actually it is slotted from below the 772 to between the 772 and 773, depending on wether you use comfy Y seats or 747 sized Y seats.

We have the same topic in two threads, but you guys really need to do the math before making statements about other people being wrong.

787-8: 210-250 seats (from Boeing website)
787-9: 250-290 seats (from Boeing website)
787-10: 290-330 seats (soon to be from Boeing  Wink )

The 787-10 is the same stretch over the -9 as the -9 is over the -8, and thus you can truly, simply, just do the math.

It's that simple. Really.

The upper number is a 9Y configuration with a premium ratio in the Airbus ballpark, while the lower number is an 8Y configuration with a premium ratio typical of Boeing history. Boeing did this to specifically counter what they considered to be skewed numbers coming from Toulouse in terms of capacity of their 350 series.

The range of course changes with more pax (decreases), and cargo space will be cut (once bags are taken care of), but still, the 787-10 at 330 seats (in theory) would hold more revenue cargo by volume than a 773ER. But on a route of say 6000nm, the 787-10 would be a more efficient aircraft than a 773ER and only carry 30 or so (in a real config) fewer pax and more revenue (by volume) cargo.

And it costs WAY less to buy...
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