thowman
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Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:02 pm

The northwest stack to LHR is based around the VOR at BNN (Bovingdon). Most of the traffic in the stack is either transatlantic (BA, Virgin, AC, UA, AA, IA...) or UK domestic flights (BA, BD and Aer Lingus, and odd things like the Qantas 744 which appears from time to time, probably doing the leg down from MAN to LHR? I live right underneath the stack, and recently purchased an airband radio to listen to the traffic passing overhead and circling the town I live in.

One thing that has stuck out has been that the pilots US based carriers, namely AA and UA, when conversing with ATC always call it "Bovington" rather than "Bovingdon", in spite of the fact that ATC and all other traffic say "Bovingdon".

Is it named incorrectly on US charts or something?
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:08 pm

Probably just the way it sounds to them on their headsets. Words sound alot different through a headset when you have static interference etc.

 Smile
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noelg
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:11 pm

It's the same as getting an American to pronounce "Birmingham" or "Nottingham" - it's always "Bir - ming - HAM" or "Nodding - HAM"  Wink

They just don't get it, bless 'em!  Smile

On a related note, ever notice how in Flight Simulator "Luton" is pronounced "Lutton" on ATC (i.e. "Lutton Approach")...
 
bond007
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:12 pm

Same with the tennis at WimbleTon  Smile

I never did get that one either!


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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting Thowman (Thread starter):
...and odd things like the Qantas 744 which appears from time to time, probably doing the leg down from MAN to LHR.

I thought Qantas stopped that route ages ago? They used to do it with 747s, then it was a dedicated BA 737 from T4, and they also used that Flightline 146 (seen below flying under a QF callsign).

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thowman
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 4):
thought Qantas stopped that route ages ago? They used to do it with 747s, then it was a dedicated BA 737 from T4, and they also used that Flightline 146 (seen below flying under a QF callsign).

There was definetely one in the stack yesterday morning at about 10am. It could have been moved over to BNN from LAM if that stack was full?

Funnily enough, the VOR is actually sited on a fromer USAF airbase from the WWII era - so they should know how it's spelt  Smile. Interesting fact, it was where Glenn Miller's plane that dissappeared took off from.

[Edited 2006-04-19 14:30:59]
 
bond007
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:37 pm

Ooops..........................................


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-04-19 14:38:44]
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BDL2DCA
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Thowman (Reply 5):
Funnily enough, the VOR is actually sited on a fromer USAF airbase from the WWII era

Can you name any pilots who were in the USAF during WW II and who are now flying for commercial airlines with a FAA pilot's license?

Also, the english phonemes for 'd' and 't' are positionally the same in the mouth. They are both alveolar plosives. The difference is that a 'd' is "voiced" and a 't' is "voiceless." It makes it very easy for imprecise pronunciation.

My linguistics professor in college made a point of teaching the class about the difference by asking a bunch of us to pronounce the words "ladder" and "letter." They should have distinct consonant sounds in the middle, but my lazy nutmegger accent makes "letter" sound like "ledder."

I'd imagine the same thing is going on. American place names mostly end in 'ton,' so I'd imagine the pilots are unused to making the distinction between 'ton' and 'don.' They may not even realize that they are pronouncing it with a clear 't' sound because of the linguistic similarities of the phonemes.
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JetCaptain
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:26 pm

Well you Brits can't pronounce Air Canada correctly ... sounds like you're saying "Air Canader", and you say Japan Air weird too, sounds like "JapAN Air".

JC
 
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 8):
Well you Brits can't pronounce Air Canada correctly ... sounds like you're saying "Air Canader"

You mean it's not Canarder??  Wink

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 8):
ou say Japan Air weird too, sounds like "JapAN Air".

Who is Japan Air? Any relative to Japan Airlines? Are they related to "British Air", another airline that doesn't exist?
 
drinkstrolley
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:46 pm

Americans for you.

To quote John Cleese, "they enjoy torturing the English language"!

 stirthepot 
 
drexotica
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:20 pm

Part of this may stem from the lack of cities in the US that end in "don"; personally, I cannot think of one (other than New London, Conneticut). There are more cities that end in "ton" though (e.g., Wilmington, Canton, Scranton).
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bond007
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 8):
Well you Brits can't pronounce Air Canada correctly ... sounds like you're saying "Air Canader", and you say Japan Air weird too, sounds like "JapAN Air".

Just be anal here  Wink

That is more of an accent problem than saying the word as if it's spelled differently.

Wimbledon and Bovingdon don't have T's in them!

You can say Bovingdon in a Texas (or even Alabama!) accent without saying BovingTon.


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steady eddie
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:32 pm

Glenn Miller took off from Twinwoods aerodrome in Bedfordshire
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting Thowman (Reply 5):
Interesting fact, it was where Glenn Miller's plane that dissappeared took off from.

That's inaccurate. Glen Miller's final flight took off from Twinwoods in Bedfordshire.

EDIT: Jinx. You beat me too it.

[Edited 2006-04-19 16:57:59]
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JetCaptain
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:00 am

Quote:
Who is Japan Air? Any relative to Japan Airlines? Are they related to "British Air", another airline that doesn't exist?

The callsign Japan Airlines uses on the radio is "Japan Air". That is what we're talking about right ?

JC
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 15):
The callsign Japan Airlines uses on the radio is "Japan Air". That is what we're talking about right ?

JC

Sounds about right, but I don't see what the issue is with the way Brits pronouce Japan Air. "Japan" IS pronounced Ja-PAN. At least where I'm from...
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LHR777
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting JetCaptain (Reply 15):

The callsign Japan Airlines uses on the radio is "Japan Air". That is what we're talking about right ?

Well no, apparently, we're talking about US pilots calling Bovingdon "Bovington", but I understand what you're getting at...  

So how would you explain the over-use of "British Air", when BA's callsign is "Speedbird"?

[Edited 2006-04-19 17:07:34]
 
thowman
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 14):
That's inaccurate. Glen Miller's final flight took off from Twinwoods in Bedfordshire.

OK, so I got it a bit wrong. However, he did visit there. The Wikipedia entry for Bovingdon is quite interesting. Seems it was the home to several Film Stars in the USAF, Clark Gable, James Stewart etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bovingdon

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CX Flyboy
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:53 am

Just like "China Air". Who on earth are they?
 
BA0284
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Thowman (Thread starter):
"Bovington"

Yeah i too live under the bovingdon hold and i've always always herad it called Bovington by the americans!!! Really drives me mad!! haha

Quoting Thowman (Reply 5):
There was definetely one in the stack yesterday morning at about 10am. It could have been moved over to BNN from LAM if that stack was full?

WOW! I've never seen anything like that in BNN, if it would have been a QF flight, it would have been QF31, which was VH-OJF according to acars.

The strangest thing i've seen in the BNN hold is...a UA DC10 or an AZ MD11F.

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antoniemey
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Noelg (Reply 2):
It's the same as getting an American to pronounce "Birmingham" or "Nottingham" - it's always "Bir - ming - HAM" or "Nodding - HAM" Wink

They just don't get it, bless 'em! Smile

That would be because we have our own Birmingham and it is pronounced Birming-ham, rather than "Birming-am."

Quoting DrExotica (Reply 11):
Part of this may stem from the lack of cities in the US that end in "don"; personally, I cannot think of one (other than New London, Conneticut). There are more cities that end in "ton" though (e.g., Wilmington, Canton, Scranton).

No major cities ending in "Don", no, but there is a little town in Tennessee called "Huntingdon." Throws me for a loop every time because you just don't see that very often in the US.
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Leezyjet
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 10):
Americans for you.

To quote John Cleese, "they enjoy torturing the English language"!

My friend works in Customs at LHR, and the other day heard an American Ask his colleauge "Do You Speak English ?" - The Reply - "We invented it madam!".

 Smile
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Olympus69
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:47 am

I think it ill behooves the British to criticize the less linguistically challenged English speakers (Americans and Canadians), when they themselves are quite possibly the world's worst word manglers. A good example is Wuster for Worcester. Another is 'Hants' as an abbreviation for Hampshire. Anyone who doesn't know that Hampshire is itself an abbreviation - for Hamptonshire, is bound to be confused. Also, just because they are too lazy to pronounce the 'H' in Birmingham, that doesn't make it right. I won't even bother to get into the residents of the Manchester area, who don't seem to have heard of the letter 'T'  Smile
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vv701
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
I think it ill behooves the British to criticize the less linguistically challenged English speakers (Americans and Canadians), when they themselves are quite possibly the world's worst word manglers.

Quite. The correct pronunciation of 'Wrotham' (in Kent) is root-ham while the surname Featherstonehaugh is pronounced fan-sure!
 
bond007
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 24):
Quite. The correct pronunciation of 'Wrotham' (in Kent) is root-ham while the surname Featherstonehaugh is pronounced fan-sure!

Quite. The correct pronunciation of 'Wimbledon' is Wimble-Don (not Wimble-Ton), and 'Bovingdon' is pronounced Bov-ing-Don.

 

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
The British may have invented the English language, but it's a pity they didn't leave it alone after they invented it.

Blame the right people....the French, the Germans, and the Romans...and no doubt the Vikings and some others. The English didn't invent too many of their own words  Smile

Jimbo

[Edited 2006-04-20 03:34:28]
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atct
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:13 pm

Worcester, Mass. If you can pronounce it right, 90% chance youre from new england :P
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iairallie
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:27 pm

Sorry, but in 28 years of living in the US and Canada I have never heard WimbleDon called Wimbleton. Maybe you just don't understand north american accents?
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antoniemey
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
I think it ill behooves the British to criticize the less linguistically challenged English speakers (Americans and Canadians), when they themselves are quite possibly the world's worst word manglers.

I, myself, am still trying to find the F in "Lieutenant."
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DesertFlyer
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
Sorry, but in 28 years of living in the US and Canada I have never heard WimbleDon called Wimbleton. Maybe you just don't understand north american accents?

Really? My grandfather has a Oklahoma accent and it's definately Wimble-ton, and hell, that's even how I say it. It's difficult to change pronouciation when you speak a certain way for so long.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 4):
I thought Qantas stopped that route ages ago? They used to do it with 747s, then it was a dedicated BA 737 from T4, and they also used that Flightline 146 (seen below flying under a QF callsign).

They still use it I believe.

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 9):
Who is Japan Air? Any relative to Japan Airlines?

Japan Airlines radio callsign is Japan Air.

Quoting ATCT (Reply 26):
Worcester, Mass. If you can pronounce it right, 90% chance youre from new england

Actually, they say it right in England too, where there is also a Worcester.
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thowman
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 5:41 pm

My original post wasn't so much about the occasional mispronunciation, but the regular incorrect saying of Bovingdon. I was listening again this morning, and the two AA and one UA flights that came through the stack (AA66 & 104 & UA93) all said Bovington, even when replying to instructions from the Controller that said Bovingdon very clearly - something along the lines as below.

"United XX, descend to FL110, speed 220kts and enter hold at Bovingdon"

"Descend to FL110, 220kts and enter hold at Bovington, United 93"

It seems every single US pilot says it incorrectly, even though all the other traffic and controllers say it correctly.

There has been so much elsewhere on this forum of foreign crews arriving at NY not being able to speak good English or say the full correct response to controllers directions, the recent discussion about the Iberia crew and the controller at JFK spring to mind. Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

After all, they're not flying into Lonton Heathrow, are they?  Wink
 
drinkstrolley
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 22):
My friend works in Customs at LHR, and the other day heard an American Ask his colleauge "Do You Speak English ?" - The Reply - "We invented it madam!".

Love it!
 
drinkstrolley
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
Anyone who doesn't know that Hampshire is itself an abbreviation - for Hamptonshire,

Who told you that? I live in Hampshire, UK and did A Level geography with case study on Hampshire and never heard that one! Mind you, this has nothing to do with American pilot's speech!!

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
I won't even bother to get into the residents of the Manchester area, who don't seem to have heard of the letter 'T'

I've heard Liam Gallagher say "SorTed" a thousand times! Along with "Tw*t, Toss*er" etc!!
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 3):
Same with the tennis at WimbleTon

It's pervasive. My wife pronounces it "WimbleTon" as well.
Another illustration: a former co-worker of mine named David always pronounces his name "DaviT".
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bond007
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
Sorry, but in 28 years of living in the US and Canada I have never heard WimbleDon called Wimbleton. Maybe you just don't understand north american accents?

Then you haven't been listening too carefully  Wink

It has nothing to do with accents ... they think it has a "T" in it.


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drexotica
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
Sorry, but in 28 years of living in the US and Canada I have never heard WimbleDon called Wimbleton. Maybe you just don't understand north american accents?

Funny. Back in the early 70s, when tennis was becoming popular (before completely falling off the radar again in the early 80s), it was quite the snooty thing for some people (Americans) to pompusly remind/correct other people that it was "don" and not "ton".

Sure wish McEnroe and Conners were still playing; maybe people would once again pay attention to tennis.

heh
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TimRees
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
Another is 'Hants' as an abbreviation for Hampshire. Anyone who doesn't know that Hampshire is itself an abbreviation - for Hamptonshire, is bound to be confused

Sorry, don't know where you got this info from, but a quick google search on the origins of the County of Hampshire revealed:

Formerly known as 'Southamptonshire', meaning is 'shire of Southampton': Southern town of Hamo (Hamo refers to a 5th century Saxon invader and settler)

It's origin is Anglo-Saxon. No mention of 'Hamptonshire' though.
 
LHR777
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
They still use it I believe.

No, you believe wrong my friend, it stopped about 6 months ago. I used to work it at the gate in the morning...it was lovely, i'd pre-board the entire flight, all 8 passengers, then take them on the bus to the aircraft. The Flightline 146 had a full leather interior and the lovely crew would serve a full hot english breakfast. Madness!!
 
Olympus69
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting Drinkstrolley (Reply 33):
Who told you that? I live in Hampshire, UK and did A Level geography with case study on Hampshire and never heard that one! Mind you, this has nothing to do with American pilot's speech!!



Quoting TimRees (Reply 37):
Sorry, don't know where you got this info from, but a quick google search on the origins of the County of Hampshire revealed:

Formerly known as 'Southamptonshire', meaning is 'shire of Southampton'

I was only guessing, but I was pretty close - just left off the 'South' in front.
It seemed the only logical way to explain 'Hants' - Hampshire not having an 'N' or a 'T'

[quote=Drinkstrolley,reply=33]I've heard Liam Gallagher say "SorTed" a thousand times! Along with "Tw*t, Toss*er" etc!!
You should listen to 'Coronation Street" where you will hear things like "Ka-y and Mar-in were invi-ed to a par-y"  Smile
 
IFEMaster
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 23):
A good example is Wuster for Worcester.

Actually, the correct pronounciation for the British Worcester (as opposed to Worcester, MA) is exactly as you describe it, phonectically - 'Wus-ter'. In my experience, it's Americans who mess that word up - "War-ses-ter". Especially when referring to Lee & Perrins - "War-ses-ter-shy-er" sauce.

'Gloucester' is another example - correctly pronounced "Gloss-ter", but many of my American friends pronounce it "Glouw-ses-ter".

Possibly the most common I've heard is 'Norfolk'. The correct pronounciation is exactly as it's spelled - "Nor-folk", but it's more commonly pronounced as "Nor-f*ck" !!
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alphascan
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Thowman (Reply 31):
United 93

I'm quite positive you didn't hear that.
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irelayer
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:48 am

I would chalk it up the differences between American and British English, namely the spelling conventions and such. Causes a lot of confusion with placenames...also most US pilots probably (as someone mentioned) are used to cities like Canton, Scranton, etc...and unconciously replace the "d" with the "t".

-IR
 
scott0305
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 39):
You should listen to 'Coronation Street" where you will hear things like "Ka-y and Mar-in were invi-ed to a par-y"

Being from Yorkshire and sharing this particular vocal trait with my Lancastrian cousins, I must point out that although we do not pronounce the letter t in the middle of a word, there is an audible glottal stop to the trained ear.
 
UAL747
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 26):
Worcester, Mass. If you can pronounce it right, 90% chance youre from new england :P

Learned the Yankie way of pronouncing Worcester, Mass my first year in college at Boston U.

Woostahhhhh!!!..(then picture a bunch of white kids flashing some gang sign).


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loggat
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 40):
Actually, the correct pronounciation for the British Worcester (as opposed to Worcester, MA) is exactly as you describe it, phonectically - 'Wus-ter'.

This is exactly how Worcester, MA is supposed to be pronounced too. (I grew up in UK and moved to MA)
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crewrest
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed May 03, 2006 9:37 pm

There was a lady ATCO calling it 'Boving-ton' on Monday morning.
 
thowman
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RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed May 03, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Crewrest (Reply 46):
There was a lady ATCO calling it 'Boving-ton' on Monday morning

Funnily enough, I heard that too!
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed May 03, 2006 11:35 pm

i love accents, fascinating! and so long as ppl understand what your saying, it doesnt really matter IMO! i went to school in a town called Loughborough. us brits pronounce it Luff-Boro. the australian exchange students we had each year pronounce it Loo-ga-baroo-ga. too funny! but thats how its spelled, so ya cant blame em!
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Why Do US Pilots Call Bovingdon - "Bovington"?

Wed May 03, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 22):
My friend works in Customs at LHR, and the other day heard an American Ask his colleauge "Do You Speak English ?" - The Reply - "We invented it madam!"

I'm fairly certain that story is, if anything, a slight exaggeration of the truth. While I'll be the first to admit there are stupid Americans, 90% of those who choose to vacation in the UK do so because we speak the same language. I find it near impossible to believe that an American asked that. I will say they probably said something similarly stupid but to ask if someone in England speaks English seems a bit too far fetched for me to believe.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 40):
Actually, the correct pronounciation for the British Worcester (as opposed to Worcester, MA) is exactly as you describe it, phonectically - 'Wus-ter'

You've never been to New England then. Most names around here still stay true to their native pronounciations that have been changed elsewhere in the US, like Worcester (pronounced "WUSS-ter" or "WUSS-tah" in a Boston accent), Leicester ("LESS-ter"), Gloucester ("GLOSS-ter"), Lancaster (exactly as it's spelt versus the PA pronounciation of "LANG-cas-ter"), or Leominster ("LEM-in-ster").

LH423
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