leelaw
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United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:05 pm

ZURICH, Switzerland -- Fresh out of bankruptcy, United Airlines, the world's second-largest airline, is not going to buy new jets from The Boeing Co. or Airbus any time soon.

But when it does, Boeing's 787 Dreamliner would be a good addition to United's fleet, as might Boeing's bigger jumbo jet, the 747-8, said Glenn Tilton, United's chief executive.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/267152_air19.html
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redflyer
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:09 pm

I thought this comment at the end was very telling and the steal of the entire article:

"I have not been able to see it," Tilton said when asked if the A380 has a future with United.

If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

I would have had UA someway down the list with several of these higher. Remember that UA is something of an exception among American carriers in flying 747s. AA doesn't. DL doesn't. CO doesn't.

There are still plenty of potential A380 operators out there without UA.
 
MaartenV
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

So that means that just NW is left as possible US customer for the passenger version of the A380?

Didn't some Airbus official say, when United was still in bankruptcy, that United would return to profitability and buy the A380? This is a dissapointment for Airbus and good news for Boeing, since they are more likely to go with the 787 and the 748i then the 350 and A380.

Can we expect United to order all, or maybe 3 out of 4 versions of the 787.
787-3, To replace domestic 767s (do they still fly the 767 on domestic routes) and 757s.
787-8, To replace international 767-322ER's
787-9, For routes that fall in between the 777 and the 763 right now. (I'm not really sure about this one...)
787-10, to replace their oldest 777s, which will turn 20, when they will probably take delivery of their new planes if they wait for a couple of years with their 787 order.

Any thoughts?
Its all about supply and demand...
 
manni
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:34 pm

Answer often depend on how the questions are being asked..

Reporter: Has the 787 and 748 a future with United.

Tilton: Not for the moment, but when it does, Boeing's 787 Dreamliner would be a good addition to United's fleet, as might Boeing's bigger jumbo jet.

Anyone planning a purchase at a sharp price is not going to rule out the competitor before starting negotiations, unless you're Continental, Delta, Jal or ANA.

"The eventual mix of jets that United might order, be it the 787 or 747-8 -- or planes from Airbus -- will depend on how various markets open up, Tilton said."

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

Untill a while ago, it looked that United wouldn't even be able to ever order a narrowbody again. While United can be seen as a potential customer for a VLA much more than Delta, Continental or American, changes are greater to see them operating nothing bigger than 777's in the future, as the before mentioned 3 US carriers keep expanding into Asia.
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slz396
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:35 pm

Before we start speculating, maybe it is good to read again the very first line of the article...
 
roseflyer
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:36 pm

I definitely could see United operating a combination of 787s and 748s as their long haul fleet in the future. 777s will likely stick around, but eventually they will be replaced. Of course we are looking 15 years into the future.

The 767s and 744s will likely need replacing at about the same time as the fleets are currently on average about 11 years old. There is still life in those planes, but they will need replacements eventually. United isn't in a position to need any airplanes right now, but with an average fleet age of 11.7 years, I would guess that they would need to make some large orders in the next 5 years.
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Stitch
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

I'd be interested in which routes you think UA could use one on.

As for myself, about the only routes I could see UA using it on are SFO-NRT and IAD-FRA. And since I would expect SQ will (eventually) put an A380 on the former and LH one on the latter...

UA has consistently shed capacity at LHR, so I don't see UA needing one there as if they wanted to expand, they would not have sold and leased so many of their slots. As is they can upgauge to 744s or 748s with their current slots and be fine. And since they do have the option of getting back the five slots they leased to VS down the road, they can add frequencies if they feel the need (such as an Open Skies treaty opening DEN-LHR).

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 3):
Can we expect United to order all, or maybe 3 out of 4 versions of the 787.

I believe all four 787 models have a home in UA, for the missions you note. The 787-3 is too big to replace the 757, but it will work fine to replace the two-class 767 and 777s for service to Hawaii.
 
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:19 pm

Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?
 
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ERJ170
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:23 pm

Regardless of when UA decides to order the 787, they should probably go ahead and put in an order so they can guarantee a slot. They are already filled for the first 3-5 years or something like that.. unless they want to wait until 2015 or later..

I'm sure they could probably get plenty of slot space for the 747-8
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

I bet they would get a sweet deal for ordering both the 748 and 787's and all GE engines??? seems more logical route... but who knows
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roseflyer
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

Interesting question. United has such a long history with Pratt & Whitney dating back to when they were actually divisions of the same company. I would expect there to be a bidding war from GE and RR.
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redflyer
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

Not more, not less. And I was specifically thinking of UA's flights to and from NRT.

Emerging from bankruptcy, I would have thought they would eventually be in the market for a handful of 380's. Didn't Leahy at one point even mention UA as a likely 380 customer? (Nevermind the fact that he talks a lot).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
I'd be interested in which routes you think UA could use one on.

See above.

[Edited 2006-04-19 16:02:20]
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
Interesting question. United has such a long history with Pratt & Whitney dating back to when they were actually divisions of the same company. I would expect there to be a bidding war from GE and RR.

Yup. United Airlines and Pratt & Whitney's parent company, United Technologies, don't both have "United" in their name for nothin'.
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 10):
I bet they would get a sweet deal for ordering both the 748 and 787's and all GE engines???

GE's exclusivity on the 747-8 may well win them 787 customers but it's not guaranteed. For example, I could see LH taking 747-8s (with GEnx) but choosing RR for their 787s (a) for a degree of commonality with their Trent 500s, 700s and 900s, and (b) to push another line LHT's way. UA? It was been rumoured that they're still not talking to GE after the DC10 incident in (?) Iowa but I find that hard to believe. It's certainly true that the PW bias gave IAE the advantage on UA's A320s and, with PW out of the 787 race, that might give RR the edge. Very hard to say. As with AA, it could go either way.

On the 787 RR has NW and GE has CO. If each picked up one more customer out of AA and UA to give each two I wouldn't be surprised.
 
MaartenV
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:10 pm

Having a history with eachother doesn't automatically have to mean anything. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Boeing also a part of this company? That didn't stop United from buying and/or flying SUD, Airbus, Lockheed and Douglas aircraft.
Its all about supply and demand...
 
mcdu
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?

I believe UA and GE have some continued discord due to UA232. In the past I have heard many say we would never order another airplane with GE engines. Not to say that cost being the key, but I would bet on RR's.

The huge caveat to all of this is, IF we order airplanes in the future. Hope so but not losing sleep over it.
 
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
Very hard to say. As with AA, it could go either way.

Very true! But we know for sure, if they want 748's well that is an easy choice... and its a given!
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Ken777
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:00 am

While now is not the time to lock in an order it is the time for UA to get down some "refundable deposits" for slots when they project they will need the planes. Boeing wants to nail down UA for the 787 just as much as Airbus wants them for the 350 and setting up the slots now makes sense.

It's good to see UA actually talking about new planes in the future - a good indication that there will be a future for them.
 
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:56 am

if UA do go 787, or if they have, this is what they would look like, courtesy of my freind ben moorhouse. click on the photo to veiw it bigger.


Modified Airliner Photos:
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UAL777UK
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
Regardless of when UA decides to order the 787, they should probably go ahead and put in an order so they can guarantee a slot. They are already filled for the first 3-5 years or something like that.. unless they want to wait until 2015 or later..

I'm sure they could probably get plenty of slot space for the 747-8

Agreed, they cannot sit around for years then make an order, surely they need to seriously order in the very near future, especially the 787.
 
airfrnt
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Really? More so than BA or Cathay? What about Asiana or SAA? One or both of the Taiwanese airlines? Air China? Air India, indeed? Never mind the two Japanese airlines...

UA basically launched Airbus's A380 program when it asked Boeing and Airbus for a 600+ seat aircraft. The news that they don't see a future for it right now is non-trivial for Airbus.
 
Carfield
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:47 am

I actually think that UA can use the A380s very well especially on a couple of its premium markets to Asia and London.

Its HKG-SFO/ORD flights are constantly sold out especially during peak seasons. HKG-ORD is almost 10 flights a week now. For the future of the Mainland China, an open sky agreement is definitely not going to happen for a while, and A380 may be a good solution to add capacity without adding flights. Beijing and Shanghai are all high potential markets. Also, London Heathrow is at its max... I can see UA consolidate a few ORD or IAD flights into A380s, and free up a few slots to sell to other airlines to generate $$$ or to add a few more secondary cities.

Nevertheless, UA is in no shape to buy planes now. I honestly think that money will be its primary concert. If A350s and A340-600HGW (or whatever new models) are offered in cheap enough prices, UA will take them just as well as Boeing 787s. Anyway, this project will be so far ahead...

Thanks for the news! Who knows who will be UA CEO at 2010?

Carfield
 
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
Its HKG-SFO/ORD flights are constantly sold out especially during peak seasons. HKG-ORD is almost 10 flights a week now. For the future of the Mainland China, an open sky agreement is definitely not going to happen for a while, and A380 may be a good solution to add capacity without adding flights. Beijing and Shanghai are all high potential markets. Also, London Heathrow is at its max... I can see UA consolidate a few ORD or IAD flights into A380s, and free up a few slots to sell to other airlines to generate $$$ or to add a few more secondary cities.

Carfield, what about during the "low" season...it might become extremely expensive to operate if its not generating money...

they would be better off getting 2 787-10's instead.......better CASM and much much more flexibility.....

slots haven't been a problem for UA.....
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ERJ170
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
I actually think that UA can use the A380s very well especially on a couple of its premium markets to Asia and London.

in all honestly and to put it blankly.. no US airline has any need for the A380.. Us airlines fly on frequency and not on capacity. US airlines put frequency on a much higher priority than moving a schat load of people.. and when they can't get the frequency they want due to one reason or another.. then yes, they will put a large aircraft.. but no US airline has enough capacity to do a 380 daily anywhere.. and when

Even if they are packing them to the gills in a 747.. the 380 is too much aircraft for US airlines. US airlines will code-share the "Hail" out of each other to add frequency where they can't get additional frequency themselves.. which is why every US major has a codeshare partner or alliance.. One World, Star Alliance, Sky Team, South-AT Alliance (WN/ATA)..

I would REALLY REALLY be surprised to see the A380 with a US flag and N- registration.. too fill one of those, you will see a decrease in frequency which no airline wants to do if they don't have to..

And to have a 380 filled with 400-500+ US fare Y seats.. LOL.. funny! I can see the ads now.. Fly to NRT.. $39 each way! Hahahaha.. they could have 175 seats at that price... LOL.. too funny.
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columba
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 24):
I would REALLY REALLY be surprised to see the A380 with a US flag and N- registration.

You should have add "passenger version of the A380", A380s with US flag and N-registration will be plenty with Fedex and UPS.
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ERJ170
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:14 am

Correct Columba.. I should have made that correction..

Pax version..

Thank you sir..
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 21):
The news that they don't see a future for it right now is non-trivial for Airbus.

I don't dispute that. But I read the post as suggesting that UA was the airline currently most likely to want A380s and it's that idea I was questioning. Clearly, anyone who currently needs 747s must be a target for Airbus and any airline - never mind a major like UA - saying they don't need or want the A380 is a blow. But there are many more sales prospects out there over the long lifetime of the programme. A longer range -800 and the inevitable -900 will stimulate further sales. Anyway, UA may see things differently down the line. I can well remember Lufthansa saying that alliances were certainly not the way forward and that they had no intention of joining one...
 
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
GE's exclusivity on the 747-8 may well win them 787 customers but it's not guaranteed. For example, I could see LH taking 747-8s (with GEnx) but choosing RR for their 787s (a) for a degree of commonality with their Trent 500s, 700s and 900s, and (b) to push another line LHT's way. UA? It was been rumoured that they're still not talking to GE after the DC10 incident in (?) Iowa but I find that hard to believe. It's certainly true that the PW bias gave IAE the advantage on UA's A320s and, with PW out of the 787 race, that might give RR the edge. Very hard to say. As with AA, it could go either way.

On the 787 RR has NW and GE has CO. If each picked up one more customer out of AA and UA to give each two I wouldn't be surprised.

For UA, it is a tough call. For AA, I think it would go in favor of RR. For Delta, it would go in favor of GE.

Also, there is the great possibility that United may pick the A350 instead. Unlike Delta and American, United is not a total Boeing customer. They operate Airbus narrowbodies. I would say the chances of United ordering the 787 vs the A350 are 60/40.
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AADC10
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:12 am

Tilton is leaving UA's options open for the right deal to come along, but probably UA's only interest for the next several years is in more 772s with P&W engines. However, the only actual commitment they have made for aircraft is to eventually take delivery of the previously (pre-BK) ordered A319/320s, which will presumably replace the older 733s.
 
lehpron
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:42 am

Quote:
ZURICH, Switzerland -- Fresh out of bankruptcy, United Airlines, the world's second-largest airline, is not going to buy new jets from The Boeing Co. or Airbus any time soon.



Quote:
"I have not been able to see it," Tilton said when asked if the A380 has a future with United.

What recently divorced couple goes off and remarries without getting back on track?

Facinating how everyone replies as if both of these quotes from the article do not emphasize United's near-term intents -- that they don't have any. While everyone can speculate and discuss potential orders, A.net members have a limited idea of the future, forget a future. How many of you all achknowledge that any order by United may be a long time from now?
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
Also, there is the great possibility that United may pick the A350 instead. ... I would say the chances of United ordering the 787 vs the A350 are 60/40.

I'd say you're dead right!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
United isn't in a position to need any airplanes right now, but with an average fleet age of 11.7 years, I would guess that they would need to make some large orders in the next 5 years.

But, most of those younger airplanes are the E-170s, and A-319/320 series. That brings the average age down a lot. UA's B-767s, and B-747s are at or approaching 20 years old soon. The oldest B-777s are approaching 13-14. UA has no wide body younger than 8 years old. But, I believe they will stick to the BK exit plan very closely, thus, no B-787-300/-800/-900 2011. But, by then the oldest B-747-400, the current "backbone" of their fleet will be approaching social security, so look for a few B-747-800Is ordered in 2009 or 2010.

This is what Tilton said:
United is following its bankruptcy reorganization business plan that does not include the purchase of new jets for five years, Tilton said.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 8):
Would United go GEnx or RR Trent with their 787s if they ever ordered any?



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 10):
I bet they would get a sweet deal for ordering both the 748 and 787's and all GE engines??? seems more logical route... but who knows



Quoting PM (Reply 14):
UA? It was been rumoured that they're still not talking to GE after the DC10 incident in (?) Iowa but I find that hard to believe.

UA was very happy with the CF-6s on the DC-10 until the UA-232 incident. What ever fall out UA and GE had over that will be overcome by financial considerations when it comes time to select an engine for what ever new airplanes they order.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
For the future of the Mainland China, an open sky agreement is definitely not going to happen for a while, and A380 may be a good solution to add capacity without adding flights. Beijing and Shanghai are all high potential markets. Also, London Heathrow is at its max... I can see UA consolidate a few ORD or IAD flights into A380s, and free up a few slots to sell to other airlines to generate $$$ or to add a few more secondary cities.

With oil currently at $72 per barrel, it isn't good for any additional sales of the Whale-Jet. But for any of the US airlines, the A-380 is a very poor fit. None, but UA and NW, use anything bigger than a B-777-200ER now.

Quoting Columba (Reply 25):
A380s with US flag and N-registration will be plenty with Fedex and UPS.

I wouldn't count on UPS. They have gotten out of their A-300-600F deal, and in the past, the B-767-300ERF deal.
 
roseflyer
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
But, most of those younger airplanes are the E-170s, and A-319/320 series. That brings the average age down a lot. UA's B-767s, and B-747s are at or approaching 20 years old soon. The oldest B-777s are approaching 13-14. UA has no wide body younger than 8 years old.

I understand your point and agree with you, but you added a few years to UA's fleet.

The oldest 747 is from 1989, so that would be 17 years old. Half the 747s were delivered between 1989 and 1991 and the other half were delivered between 1996 and 2000.

The oldest 767-300 is from 1991, which makes it 14 years old. Half of those were delivered between 1991 and 1993 with the other half being delivered between 1998 and 2001.

So many of those planes aren't actually that old. I would expect 747s and 767s to be flying for many more years, but in the next 5 years, I think we will see an order as they will want to start to phase out the planes built in the early 90s. Of course that is all contingent on the 748 and 787 being truly more efficient to justify the increased lease rates/aircraft payments. The newest widebody in their fleet is a 777 that was delivered only 4 years ago.

The small jets in UA's fleet are much younger. The A319s and A320s have many years left in them, and UA has lots of 70 seat jets as they are phasing out older 737s. I would expect a widebody order first. Of course the wildcard is the 757. Their fleet is pretty old. Most of them were delivered between 1989 and 1993, which makes them 13-17 years old and they are accumulating cycles. It is the second oldest fleet type for United.
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
"I have not been able to see it," Tilton said when asked if the A380 has a future with United

I read this quote differently than many of you. Is it possible he's just saying he hasn't been able to see the aircraft itself so he can't comment on whether it would have a future at UA? I'd think if he wanted to discount the possibility of the A380 joining the fleet, he'd have said "I don't see it" not " I have not BEEN ABLE to see it" Just my way of reading the quote.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 34):
Is it possible he's just saying he hasn't been able to see the aircraft itself so he can't comment on whether it would have a future at UA?

I think he meant that at least at this point in time, he does not forsee the A380 fitting into the UA fleet in the future.
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):The oldest B-777s are approaching 13-14.

Well the oldest 777's in the fleet are 10-11 years not 13 -14 years old with the 1st delivered in 1995.

[Edited 2006-04-20 01:57:09]
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Stitch
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 22):
Its HKG-SFO/ORD flights are constantly sold out especially during peak seasons. HKG-ORD is almost 10 flights a week now.

Yet if SQ is worried about the A380 doing SFO-HKG 356-days a year at full load, I'd imagine ORD-HKG would be even more dicey for the plane.
 
jacobin777
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 28):
Also, there is the great possibility that United may pick the A350 instead. Unlike Delta and American, United is not a total Boeing customer. They operate Airbus narrowbodies. I would say the chances of United ordering the 787 vs the A350 are 60/40.

if Airbus doesn't make the A350 more competetive to the B787, the chances are going to be down to 0.......

right now, I would say its 90/10 Boeing/Airbus...Tilton is basically stating they want the 787 and 747-8.....if they only had the money right now to spend on new planes..

"Boeing's 787 Dreamliner would be a good addition to United's fleet, as might Boeing's bigger jumbo jet, the 747-8, said Glenn Tilton, United's chief executive."

they have to mention they are thinking about Airbus, so they can get a better price out of Boeing...

I think they will go long-haul Boeing, and short-haul Airbus...simple...case close.... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 4):
Answer often depend on how the questions are being asked..

And what follows:

"We are really interested in how the 787 technology would play in the United fleet," Tilton said in an interview with the Seattle P-I.

His airline has had preliminary talks with Boeing.
 
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United787
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:00 pm

My prediction is correct ... United 787
 
atomother
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:44 pm

Perhaps instead of buying all these fancy jets, they could give back some salary to the pilots and other employees that gave wage concessions to save the company from going out of business.

No, that isn't fun to talk about. Lets just buy new airplanes.
 
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N328KF
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Atomother (Reply 41):
Perhaps instead of buying all these fancy jets, they could give back some salary to the pilots and other employees that gave wage concessions to save the company from going out of business.

Nevermind that before this, UAL pilots were the highest paid in the industry.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
wn700driver
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:02 pm

Quote:
right now, I would say its 90/10 Boeing/Airbus...Tilton is basically stating they want the 787 and 747-8. ....if they only had the money right now to spend on new planes..

And that's the rub. What people don't like to admit or even think about is just how much more it costs to aquire all this shiny new metal. A 748, even steeply discounted will still relieve UAL (UAUA) of well over 220 million dollars. Multiply the cost of this replacement fleet by current number of 744s they operate, and the efficiency benefit of that shiny new 748 will not appear for decades, not years, decades.
It's like all these people here in the states that try to justify buying a brand new $30,000 car because it gets 3-5mpg better highway economy than the paid for vehicle they already own free and clear.

While we're at it, same for NW! It is amazing how everyone can't wait for them to dispose of their paid for DC9s & 10s, when what they should be doing is voiding their contracts for those A333s, a plane who's monthly installments completely destroy any meager CASM gain over a DC-10 that can't get repossesed.

I agree that there is a time when a frame is just too old to operate safely. But for United & Northwest, they are nowhere near that yet. Someone here said (I can't be bothered to scroll back up, sorry) that United 744s & 772s, being 10-14 yrs old, still have "some" life in them. What crap! At that age, (unless UAL somehow manages to cycle a 744 6 times a day!) they still have most of their life ahead of them.
And seeing as how the overwhelming majority of the flying public can't even tell you what airline they took on vacation last week, let alone what AC type, configuration, etc, it is far more economical to simply refurbish an AC's interior from time to time (maybe during a D-check). This is expensive, but for a tiny fraction of the cost of a new plane, the airline still retains a competetive age. They retain lower CASM by not having to make extorsive payments each month, and the passengers will almost never know the "Brand new Airbus, I swear!" they just rode on was actually a 20 year old 763.

If you read this far, thank you. I am just as curious as anyone else here to see what UAL will buy next for a 762/3 replacement, and would love to see a 748 in blue & white one day. One day. I think they have just the fleet they need right now. My three cents.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
UA was very happy with the CF-6s on the DC-10 until the UA-232 incident. What ever fall out UA and GE had over that will be overcome by financial considerations when it comes time to select an engine for what ever new airplanes they order.

so true, economics in todays market place would determine whether UA and GE do a deal in the future not whats happened in the past. time to move on, theres alot of water under the bridge since Sioux City.

As for the 747-8, theres no way in my book that Boeing, based in the same city as UA is going to let UA order the 380...they will dangle big carrots for that deal, besides, I do not think the 380 fits UA's needs anyway.
 
N1120A
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 1):
If any airline was in need of the 380 in the future, it would have been UA.

Not when there is something available with a lower CASM and likely longer range, all at a lower purchase price.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:03 am

How about the 773ER to replace the 744? Both 380 and 748 look too big...
When I doubt... go running!
 
jacobin777
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RE: United Dreaming Big, As In Boeing 787

Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting WN700Driver (Reply 43):

And that's the rub. What people don't like to admit or even think about is just how much more it costs to aquire all this shiny new metal. A 748, even steeply discounted will still relieve UAL (UAUA) of well over 220 million dollars. Multiply the cost of this replacement fleet by current number of 744s they operate, and the efficiency benefit of that shiny new 748 will not appear for decades, not years, decades.
It's like all these people here in the states that try to justify buying a brand new $30,000 car because it gets 3-5mpg better highway economy than the paid for vehicle they already own free and clear.

I agree with you conceptually, but they don't need to be awash in money to order planes...I think UA would add the 748 sometime by 2011-2015...thats when many of their 744's start to get really old.....but that doesn't mean they can't start negotiating now, or put some deposits on them..

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 46):
How about the 773ER to replace the 744? Both 380 and 748 look too big...

I would love to see some 773ER's in their fleet, but I don't see that happening anytime soon......

many here will say that the 787-10 will be better suited for them....only time will tell..
"Up the Irons!"