KarlB737
Topic Author
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$17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:43 am

Courtesy: Airports International

New San Diego Estimate: $17 Billion To Build Airport

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6172
 
radelow
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:22 am

We can fund that with our pension plan....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
 
1011
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:37 am

Forget it. SAN is fine. The new airport authority keeps showing pictures of tons of planes backed up waiting for takeoff wanting to scare people into voting for a new airport. When were those pics taken? During a rwy 9 landing while taking off on 27. That happens only maybe 20 days of the yr. The real reason they want a new airport is so they can develop the land on the water that SAN sits on. Ya, build one in Imperial! I am sure everyone would love to drive 2hrs or pay 10 dollars each way to ride a speed train. I would rather drive up to SNA rather than do that.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:41 am

Ha Ha, and to put it in perspective (for the Irish, or maybe Europeans), they could level DUB and rebuilt it with 2 runways for about 5 Billion Euro (or $6 Billion)
John Hancock
 
DCAYOW
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting 1011 (Reply 2):
Forget it. SAN is fine. The new airport authority keeps showing pictures of tons of planes backed up waiting for takeoff wanting to scare people into voting for a new airport. When were those pics taken? During a rwy 9 landing while taking off on 27. That happens only maybe 20 days of the yr. The real reason they want a new airport is so they can develop the land on the water that SAN sits on. Ya, build one in Imperial! I am sure everyone would love to drive 2hrs or pay 10 dollars each way to ride a speed train. I would rather drive up to SNA rather than do that.

Think about this statement. The Airport Authority isn't saying today is a problem. They are saying tomorrow (30 years) there will be a problem not only in San Diego, but greater SoCal. The Airport Authority has no interest in land development on the water - IT DOESN'T EVEN OWN THE LAND IT SITS UPON. That land would revert back to the Port of San Diego (a different agency from the SDCRAA-Airport Authority).

Think about what San Diego was like 20 years ago. Have the freeways been improved YES. Has airport runway/taxiway infrastructure been improved NO! Could you imagine if today I-5 was only two lanes in each direction. Another runway needs to be added in San Diego, just as additional lanes have been added to the freeways over the years. Air traffic is no different than road traffic, infrastructure needs to be upgraded to keep up with increased activity.

I am sure the Airport Authority is keenly aware of the problems associated with the remote sites, which is why in all likelihood they will be removed or if added to the ballot- would be rejected by the voters. They know the lessons of Dorval.
Retorne ao céu...
 
Trvlr
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:50 am

Read closer.

"This figure, presented by consultants Ricondo & Associates, covers an airport built at either Campo in southeast San Diego County, or on land in Imperial County, with a high-speed rail link and improved highway infrastructure."

Then:

"The actual cost of construction is put at $6.4 billion for Campo and $4.1 billion for Imperial.

This makes the cost of a new airport at, say, Miramar look very attractive.

Aaron G.
 
Trvlr
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 3):
Ha Ha, and to put it in perspective (for the Irish, or maybe Europeans), they could level DUB and rebuilt it with 2 runways for about 5 Billion Euro (or $6 Billion)

As they could a new airport in San Diego. The extra cost comes from access infrastructure, not airport construction itself.

Aaron G.
 
lehpron
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:54 pm

That's bullshit, the Imperial site was removed. Why are they making the theoretical costs known, there are many ignorant people out in the voting community that do so knee-jerkly. Speaking of which:

Quoting 1011 (Reply 2):
Ya, build one in Imperial! I am sure everyone would love to drive 2hrs or pay 10 dollars each way to ride a speed train

They are not going to build it, that is the estimate HAD they! A few months ago, this site was removed as one of the potential sites because no one wants to go out there!

Quoting 1011 (Reply 2):
The real reason they want a new airport is so they can develop the land on the water that SAN sits on.

I've lived here longer than you, I've never heard that. I'm only for the current Miramar site, personally, its convinient and close-by and most of the infrastructure is already there, no need to spend billions extra.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 5):
The actual cost of construction is put at $6.4 billion for Campo and $4.1 billion for Imperial.

This makes the cost of a new airport at, say, Miramar look very attractive.

BINGO, let's hope people can understand that.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
siromega
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:04 pm

Indeed, they need to take over the base and use that instead of building one in the middle of nowhere. I wish they would have done that here in LV - had the US Govt give the County DOA enough land for an airport, and sold the rest of the land for development, and build a new base further out. Instead we get an airport 45 minutes out of town (non-peak travel time, rush hour could be 90 minutes or more).
 
F9Fan
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:36 pm

I wonder if they are aware that the price their quoting is over triple the price for DEN, and that was after all the UA change orders and the delays caused by the luggage system UA said they ABSOLUTELY HAD to have (and is now abandoning). What are they going to do? pave the runways in pure gold? Diamond studded sink handles in the restrooms? I find it very difficult they are going to spend that much cash on an airport.

F9Fan
 
PanAm747
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:36 pm

Quote:
Think about this statement. The Airport Authority isn't saying today is a problem. They are saying tomorrow (30 years) there will be a problem not only in San Diego, but greater SoCal.

I have tried to point out to residents here in San Diego that LAX is actually going to limit capacity at 75 million per year, despite projections that it could reach a demand of 120 million per year. You have a better chance of seeing Saddam Hussein return to power in Iraq than you do of seeing BUR, LGB, or SNA expand, and our delightful Lindbergh Field, though convenient and photogenic, simply cannot last forever.

I feel like Kassandra, from Greek mythology - blessed by the Gods with the power to see the future, but cursed that the knowledge would never be believed.

Southern California will realize in 20 years that shortsidedness has led to their airports being slot controlled and the "Southwest Effect" will be meaningless. Then I can do the "Told-You-So!!!!!" dance.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:08 pm

What can possible be done to that itty-bitty little piece of land that would cost $17 billion???
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting 1011 (Reply 2):
Forget it. SAN is fine. The new airport authority keeps showing pictures of tons of planes backed up waiting for takeoff wanting to scare people into voting for a new airport. When were those pics taken? During a rwy 9 landing while taking off on 27. That happens only maybe 20 days of the yr. The real reason they want a new airport is so they can develop the land on the water that SAN sits on. Ya, build one in Imperial! I am sure everyone would love to drive 2hrs or pay 10 dollars each way to ride a speed train. I would rather drive up to SNA rather than do that.

Don't know much about peak hour demand and gate to runway ratios do ya?

Single Runway - 58 gates
Current gates - 45
2010 Gates 55
2015 Gates 58

Ooops!

Futhermore, lets say the airlines opt to run 767 size aircraft all day to meet demand with larger aircraft vs. operations. Heavies = greater separation = lower runway throughput - less efficient. Then of course, there's the issue of passengers. Even the weakest number given represents a 40% increase in passengers, and this is a figure given by a nay sayer. Just how do you propose to handle that level of vehicle traffic? Parking? This on an airport out of land, in need of a larger terminal for Southwest and one that is out of gate expansion opportunity due to the runway/gate ratio. Oh yeah, and there's that damn curfew limiting SAN to a 17 hour day. Then of course, there's the terrain that limits aircraft performance and payload capability for what would be a vibrant level of International service given the million people or so that go to LAX every year that would otherwise be flying non-stop.

Keep Lindbergh... Go ahead. I hope you like La Guardia.

Quoting F9fan (Reply 9):
I wonder if they are aware that the price their quoting is over triple the price for DEN, and that was after all the UA change orders and the delays caused by the luggage system UA said they ABSOLUTELY HAD to have (and is now abandoning). What are they going to do? pave the runways in pure gold? Diamond studded sink handles in the restrooms? I find it very difficult they are going to spend that much cash on an airport.

Denver would be about $10-12 billion today with an opening in 2020. A runway would be budgeted at about $1 billion today (earthwork and off the chart concerete prices), terminals/ramps/jetbridges are about $25 million a gate. Two runways and 70 or so gates for SAN in 2020 = $3.75 to $4 Billion. The price suggested is about right. The City/County/State is then on the hook for access from the highways. The further away they are from the site, the higher the cost. My hunch is off ramps for Miramar are a pin prick at about $250 million, compare that to Maglev at $15 - 25 Billion. Add about $100 million a year, each year that the airport isn't built beyond the 2020 point for inflation.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
Then I can do the "Told-You-So!!!!!" dance.

I'll fly out and join you in 10 quick years when the reality begins to set in (that is if I can afford to fly into San Diego - or able to find a seat). Where we doin' the dance???? Miramar front gate?

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 11):
What can possible be done to that itty-bitty little piece of land that would cost $17 billion???

Nothing. It's not for that itty-bitty piece of land.

[Edited 2006-04-20 14:57:03]
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 4):
I am sure the Airport Authority is keenly aware of the problems associated with the remote sites, which is why in all likelihood they will be removed or if added to the ballot- would be rejected by the voters. They know the lessons of Dorval.

YUL - Dorval is very close to Montreal. I think you meant YMX i.e. Mirabel.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
JAL
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:43 pm

That's a lot of money for an airport for a city the size of San Diego.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
2travel2know
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:51 pm

People in San Diego like to forget there's an airport south of the border called TIJ?
Everytime I read topics about SAN, the option of doing something at TIJ (maybe extending taxiways to cross the border and build a U.S. Airport Terminal there) is quickly turned down.
In the dream scenario of something like that ever happening, are we talking about a $100million investment vs. $17 billion for a new San Diego Airport?
I've been to San Diego, but I have no clue how far is TIJ airport from the U.S. - Mexican border and what's on the U.S. side nearest to that airport.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting JAL (Reply 14):
That's a lot of money for an airport for a city the size of San Diego.

Which is why the airport won't be built in the Desert or the Mountains.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 15):
I've been to San Diego, but I have no clue how far is TIJ airport from the U.S. - Mexican border and what's on the U.S. side nearest to that airport.

Use TJ's runway, make it longer (if not replace it). Place a runway between the North and South Runways on Test Site "D" (pages 6,10,11,12, and 15 below) and place terminals for both countries down the middle of the runways. Build a shared international terminal for long haul. Neutral airfield.

http://www.san.org/documents/assp/SPC_Brown_Field_101005_v3.pdf

What's there? Some industrial, a border fencline and some dirt. Biggest hurdle: Politicians.

[Edited 2006-04-20 16:44:07]
 
PanAm747
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:47 pm

Quote:
I've been to San Diego, but I have no clue how far is TIJ airport from the U.S. - Mexican border and what's on the U.S. side nearest to that airport.

TIJ is right on the line. After you cross the border into Mexico, it is a guaranteed $10 taxi ride to TIJ.

Getting back is the problem - you either have to go through San Ysidro port of entry or Otay Mesa, both taking quite a while.

Since Mexico is now the greatest threat to American security (at least according to some hysterical politicians hoping to kiss the derrieres of conservative voters), a joint use airport has been ruled out. Any sort of "shared" facility with Mexico is out of the question.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 17):
Since Mexico is now the greatest threat to American security (at least according to some hysterical politicians hoping to kiss the derrieres of conservative voters), a joint use airport has been ruled out. Any sort of "shared" facility with Mexico is out of the question.

Some irony:

Cross border - Threat to security
Miramar - Threat to security

Some reality:

Economic growth in San Diego = Higher Cost of Living = complications for the military to justify it's extensive existence in San Diego... Hamper that economic growth and the military benfits. Interesting... No?
 
lehpron
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 18):
complications for the military to justify it's extensive existence in San Diego

Uh, just to be specific, (it sounds to me like the entire military presence in SD should be questioned): "complicates the military @ Miramar to justify it's extensive existence in San Diego"

Personally, I don't see why we need Miramar if we have North Island and Camp Pendelton to name a few. San Diego is this generation's Pearl Harbor, (somewhat, not really) we have a large portion of the west coast's Navy here. Our enemy isn't from one location (USSR) anymore, they are everywhere, and having huge basess every few miles makes little sense in my mind.

What I don't get is why this report was published at all? The imperial site was removed because it was too far away and expensive, furthermore why weren't these points in the article? I wish people would read the article rather than make assmptions as if SAN is remodeling, as is and location, for 17 billion. Of course it's expensive, but to assume that is the plan and will go ahead by wondering why do it at all, is stupid.

Quoting F9fan (Reply 9):
I find it very difficult they are going to spend that much cash on an airport.

Boeing could spend that much on a practical sonic the size of our beloved 737 if they had the foresight...

Quoting JAL (Reply 14):
That's a lot of money for an airport for a city the size of San Diego.

It's an estimate. Besides, 2/3 of the cost was towards a MAGLEV train system which would have a track length of over 50 miles. Since this would have been a first in the USA, of course it would cost as much as the A380 and then some. At least it may get way more traffic but it may take a while to recoupe costs.

There are already old railroad tracks all over miramar, Amtrack/Coaster cannot help going through as there isn't some giant tunnel under UTC (sorry Westfield, I still refer to Qualcomm Stadium as "The Murf"...) It would cost less than half a billion for a third and fourth set of tracks for a trolley or another Coaster to run through there. Hmm, how much extra would it cost to make a new ail line via I-15 to conect into Miramar, instead of expanding that freeway as wide as a runway over the next few dacades?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
1011
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 7):
I've lived here longer than you, I've never heard that. I'm only for the current Miramar site, personally, its convinient and close-by and most of the infrastructure is already there, no need to spend billions extra.

How would you know that you've lived in San Diego longer than I have? Were you born here? Or are you a transplant? Have you worked at SAN? Are you a pilot? Well, I am native of San Diego, a pilot, worked at SAN, and have lived aviation my whole life. I've had to deal with idiot airport managers for a long time, particulary Tracy Means the great airport manager at MYF who was fired. So I know a bit about aviation and San Diego's quest for a new airport.

In the 1950s or early 60s the Navy wanted to swap Miramar with Lindbergh Field. SAN said no thank you. They had their chance. I think Marine Corp Air Station Miramar is much more valuable than a civil airport. Both to the region and for national defense. I know Miramar is the best option just not with the Marines at Miramar.

If the people of La Jolla and UTC area hate military aircraft flying overhead they would love 500 + flights a day.

Either way no matter what option, tons of people in this city will be filing lawsuit after lawsuit. Look what a problem it was for the Padres getting Petco Park built. I can't imagine a new airport or somehow adding a rwy to SAN. All I can say is I'll believe it when I see it.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
I've had to deal with idiot airport managers for a long time, particulary Tracy Means the great airport manager at MYF who was fired. So I know a bit about aviation and San Diego's quest for a new airport.

Then you haven't dealt with the airport issue at all.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
If the people of La Jolla and UTC area hate military aircraft flying overhead they would love 500 + flights a day.

It'll be quieter. Stage IV will be in full effect in 20 years. It'll certainly be quieter than the Osprey.

Joint strike fighter at Miramar???

Yuma.... Slide 24....Presentation given 20MAR06. VMFAT-101 goes away when JSF transition is complete in 2020. Just in time for an airport to open.

http://www.tecom.usmc.mil/atb/FRS%20...ummit%20Version%207%20MAR%2006.ppt

(Right click and save)

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
In the 1950s or early 60s the Navy wanted to swap Miramar with Lindbergh Field. SAN said no thank you. They had their chance. I think Marine Corp Air Station Miramar is much more valuable than a civil airport. Both to the region and for national defense. I know Miramar is the best option just not with the Marines at Miramar.

When Miramar was in the sticks you mean? Miles away from town? Before Mira Mesa existed? When air service was... Well... non-existant. Pre-Terminal 1??? When a single runway was all San Diego needed for 50 years? Times up.

They'd have built a single runway airport, called it a day, had the same encroachment that exists at Lindbergh today and be in the same predicament looking for a way to expand. Miramar is so large in land mass running North/South that if done right, they can fit two sets of close parallel runways on it supporting 60 million passengers comfortably. More capacity than San Diego would ever need.

[Edited 2006-04-21 02:16:14]
 
galapagapop
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:04 am

Well chances of the knuckleheads in control in SoCal approving such a project are zero to none. I say let their pro-development/ no new infrastructure approach continue and maybe in 20 years they will be imprisoned as such for their lack of interest in the future. I just find the path happening in SAN similar to one that was taken by the richest cities after the civil war, mmmm..... Maybe they didn't have airtravel back then but Hartford through the following years did the similar development without infrastructure approach from the early 1900's heck even into the 60's and 70's and well look where they are now, 2nd poorest capital in the country and one of the biggest crime and murder rates in the country. For a city of its size and declining population it still finds ways to jam up 91 and 84 almost all day. I visit SAN 6 times a year just to enjoy the best land and area of the country but it tears me to see the same stuff happening in terms of the reckless development that happened in my state's capital decades ago. Soon they'll be forced to move the highway just like Hartford did to make room for more houses along the coast, but it will lack logistical foresight and soon the local economy will suffocate along the shore from the lack of foresight. Maybe they'll snap out of it and maybe do the wise thing and move to Miramar? Nope, Monkeys even know that.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:20 am

Frankly, I'm proud to be an ostrich. Fuel prices, technology, yet uninvented ways to travel all could contribute to the traditional airport boosters being dead wrong. If BUR and SNA won't/can't expand, then I will gladly add SAN to that list. Housing prices and everything else in San Diego make it too expensive except for the rich. Companies and their employees should just leave for other more hospitable areas of the country. As a 3rd generation native San Diegan all I have to say is that you new comers should go back from where you came (and take your traffic, new airport, increased crime, crowded beaches, pollution and lower standard of living with you).


Just Vote NO to any expensive and unnecessary airport scheme in November.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
lehpron
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:28 am

1011, checking my profile might answer some of your questions.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
If the people of La Jolla and UTC area hate military aircraft flying overhead they would love 500 + flights a day.

I wonder how many of them know that the FAA does not regulate military aircraft noise? It would take several 787's to equal the noise of one Hornet without the afterburner. The threshold of the runway is about 2 miles from the University City area, I'd figure airliners would be pretty high up by then considering fighters climb shallow so that will add to noise.

For many noise is a scapegoat, another bigger issue is land value. The primary reason people willingly move near airports is beacuse the land is cheaper due to having an airport there, it's ironic they complain about noise. If Miramar went from an air base to an airport, it would suck for those who already own property there.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
Either way no matter what option, tons of people in this city will be filing lawsuit after lawsuit.

Sue who, what, why ... its a proposal study now, soon it may be a preliminary study and then a detailed study, after which the vote for construction - it could be as much as 15 years away before the airport becomes operational. You claim you "know a bit about aviation and San Diego's quest for a new airport" yet you cannot phathom how giant of a project a new airport is going to be.

How about this, inform me with what you know, I'd like your viewpoint.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
Look what a problem it was for the Padres getting Petco Park built.

That place should not have been built with taxpayer's money to begin with.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 20):
I can't imagine a new airport or somehow adding a rwy to SAN

Have you thought about this in long-term (i.e decades from now)?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
jbmflyer
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:31 am

This is an interesting thread for me. I'm currently working on my MBA in aviation at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. For my strategic airport planning class we are running a project to determine the situation at SAN to mirror the work being done already with the site selection program, the results of which we are presenting to the planning board this coming week. The problem is indeed what is going to happen down the road, currently there is little room for expansion considering the marine base and the Part 77 limitations from the mountains. Currently they have about 220,000 operations per year. Given that the aircraft is near capacity already, there will be a serious problem in about 5-8 years. The option to simply bring flights in earlier or later is not available either given the curfews in effect. With more delays, more people will move their flights out to LAX. If the airport decides to be moved to Miramar (one of three current options) or to the Desert Site (a more nexpensive but longest term solution) the airport can become an even bigger economic generator than it already is. Parking is already getting cramped and there is no more room to expand anything. Should the airport remain where it is there is a serious risk of losing a lot of the money the airport brings in. Also there are other things to consider for the cost. AIP funding can bring the cost down more than a little and the airport can also issue bonds for the development. IF it is moved to miramar,the distance travelled from downtown to the new field will not be that terrible. It is also possible that if the airport moves to the desert site, the current Lindbergh setup can be maintained to support corporate aviation traffic allowing the growing high technology to continue to use it for their purposes. There is also another benefit to moving the airport, more international traffic, especially to the Phillipean market. Currently, as we have learned, aircraft such as the 747 can not operate out of there. There is a demand to go to the pacific and if the airport could be moved to allow large jet traffic such as that to come in and out there could be phenomenal growth in the economy of San Diego. Business and leisure travel would go up, so would the amount of money spent locally. There really is no down side to moving the airport, but not moving the airport could be a really really bad move on the part of San Diego. if you think about the future, in 2030 expect a minimum of 315,000 operations. Now if you add one LCC to the mix, with just two flights per day, expect the 2030 figure to be at 350,000 operations per year. With enplanements you can expect to see 14,000,000 in 2030 vs 8,500,000 in 2005 and if you add in the LCC with two daily flights into the enplanement forecast, expect 22,000,000 enplanements per year on the high end.

The problem with San Diego Lindbergh Field right now is that it didn't start this process earlier and already be in a new location. It's not a matter of if the airport will lose the ability to sustain demand, its a matter of when, and its soon. I would love to post our presentation, but it's massive (92) slides.

I hope the airport moves, I would hate to see it flounder in its current location.
A pilots heart, mind and soul stuck in a 8-5 bankers chair.............
 
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STT757
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:55 am

There's some good former military airfields in California and even Arizona the Marines could move their operations from Miramar to, many isolated from encroachment of development.

Here's some possible places the Marines could move their Miramar operations, these are all former Air Forces bases closed within the last 10 years or so through the various BRAC rounds.

George Air Force Base, multiple runways with huge ramp space. Also located in a great spot with no encroachment of populated areas anywhere near the airfield. Great location IMO, the Marines can fly all the loud Hornets and CH-53Es they want and there's nobody around to complain. A much better facility than Miramar for future growth than Miramar IMO. Not too far from Pendelton.

Norton Air Force Base, closest to Camp Pendleton but in populated area.

Mather Air Force Base, far from Camp Pendleton but has dual pararell runways and lots of ramp space. Also South and West of the airfield has little development.

Castle Air Force Base, single runway but tons of ramp space. In a some what developed area.

Williams Air Force Base (Gateway Airport) Arizona, has three pararell runways plus tons of ramp space. No encroachment issues, 320 miles from Pendelton.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
aaden
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:27 am

thats awsome I'd love to see it
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
There's some good former military airfields in California and even Arizona the Marines could move their operations from Miramar to, many isolated from encroachment of development.

Here's some possible places the Marines could move their Miramar operations, these are all former Air Forces bases closed within the last 10 years or so through the various BRAC rounds.

George Air Force Base, multiple runways with huge ramp space. Also located in a great spot with no encroachment of populated areas anywhere near the airfield. Great location IMO, the Marines can fly all the loud Hornets and CH-53Es they want and there's nobody around to complain. A much better facility than Miramar for future growth than Miramar IMO. Not too far from Pendelton.

Norton Air Force Base, closest to Camp Pendleton but in populated area.

Mather Air Force Base, far from Camp Pendleton but has dual pararell runways and lots of ramp space. Also South and West of the airfield has little development.

Castle Air Force Base, single runway but tons of ramp space. In a some what developed area.

Williams Air Force Base (Gateway Airport) Arizona, has three pararell runways plus tons of ramp space. No encroachment issues, 320 miles from Pendelton.

There is one major problem with your suggestion sir. It makes way too much sense..

The George option would be perfect, because as you stated Pendleton is close by, as is Twenty-Nine Palms. They would have to make a new home for all of the parked/retired airliners stored there, but that should not be a problem.

I know absolutely squat about San Diego and Miramar, but just why are the Marines so tied to this facility??
 
jbmflyer
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:05 pm

San Diego because they train their troops right next to the airport from what i understand, and miramar because they are there. I've heard its incredibly hard to relocate marines.....who knows though, i've never personally had to do it..........thankfully  Smile
A pilots heart, mind and soul stuck in a 8-5 bankers chair.............
 
Trvlr
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 23):

This kind of post makes it a lot easier to understand why San Diego has so many problems at the moment.

Aaron G.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 23):
Just Vote NO to any expensive and unnecessary airport scheme in November.

And do what? Add to that cost of living problem with higher air fares? Are you actually that naive to think people will stop traveling? That they will stop moving to San Diego? Are you on this planet? Just checking.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 26):
George Air Force Base, multiple runways with huge ramp space. Also located in a great spot with no encroachment of populated areas anywhere near the airfield. Great location IMO, the Marines can fly all the loud Hornets and CH-53Es they want and there's nobody around to complain. A much better facility than Miramar for future growth than Miramar IMO. Not too far from Pendelton.

Norton Air Force Base, closest to Camp Pendleton but in populated area.

Mather Air Force Base, far from Camp Pendleton but has dual pararell runways and lots of ramp space. Also South and West of the airfield has little development.

Castle Air Force Base, single runway but tons of ramp space. In a some what developed area.

Williams Air Force Base (Gateway Airport) Arizona, has three pararell runways plus tons of ramp space. No encroachment issues, 320 miles from Pendelton.

The Fighters at are Miramar are going away and are not a factor - see linked presentation above. It's more cost effective to move the remaining Tiltrotors and Rotorcraft to Pendleton where their mission resides, the C-130's can stay at Miramar in a Joint use scenario, as can the reserve unit, the prison and the base support facilities. They have 140,000 acres to play with at Pendleton, for vertical take off and landing aircraft - more importantly, no neighbors.
 
PanAm747
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:08 am

Quote:
This kind of post makes it a lot easier to understand why San Diego has so many problems at the moment.

Someone wrote a letter to the editor in defense of keeping Lindbergh and said, "we just need to tell the airlines to fly bigger airplanes in here".

If that doesn't explain the insanity that is Southern California, nothing will.

San Diego, my beloved city, has experienced tremendous growing pains since the first round of base closings in 1990. Until that time, there were two groups of people that lived in the city - those that had been born here, and those in the military. Getting a job here was virtually impossible, as there were virtually no other industries.

In the 1990's, the city's job climate shifted away from solely military to a more diverse economy. With that, however, came an influx of people - and they arrived to find San Diego's geography limitations different from any other city in the world. Virtually a West Berlin in the U.S., San Diego is bounded on the west by the Pacific, to the south by México, to the north by Camp Pendleton, and by mountains on the east and northeast. Unlike cities such as Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Denver, (not to mention central valley cities such as Bakersfield, Fresno, & Sacramento), San Diego is hemmed in on all sides.

I will be the first person to tell you that I wish we could keep Lindbergh Field. It is a tremendously convenient airport with an amazing arrival path - and saying that it offers spectacular spotting opportunities is an understatement.

However, I know that it cannot be sufficient for San Diego or southern California in the future. A change is going to have to be made at some point, and we as San Diegans and southern Californians need to make hard decisions. We cannot "wish" people away from the city; nor can we dictate to airlines what they can or cannot fly into our airport.

The day will come when calls of "why did we let this happen" will be applied to our airport, much the way we are doing about our current financial crisis.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
DCAYOW
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 15):
I've been to San Diego, but I have no clue how far is TIJ airport from the U.S. - Mexican border and what's on the U.S. side nearest to that airport.

The problem with the Tijuana Airport, which nobody really likes to mention - is the fact that it sits upon an unstable mesa. If it rained heavily one season followed by an earthquake, the TIJ airport could literally be wiped out.

While a cross-border airport is an intriguing idea, it has important safety and security implications. For instance if the SDCRAA managed a terminal on the north border side and a passenger takes an Aerocalifornia (domestic Mexico) flight, what liability does the SDCRAA have in terms of allowing a passenger to use an airline not subject to routine FAA standards.

Or an even better example what if Cubana or heck Iranair decides to fly to TIJ to access the SoCal expatriate community via the cross-border terminal?
Retorne ao céu...
 
DCAYOW
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 33):
However, I know that it cannot be sufficient for San Diego or southern California in the future. A change is going to have to be made at some point, and we as San Diegans and southern Californians need to make hard decisions. We cannot "wish" people away from the city; nor can we dictate to airlines what they can or cannot fly into our airport.

The day will come when calls of "why did we let this happen" will be applied to our airport, much the way we are doing about our current financial crisis.

I implore you to write this exact post to the Union Tribune opinion section. It is magnificent
Retorne ao céu...
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 34):
While a cross-border airport is an intriguing idea, it has important safety and security implications. For instance if the SDCRAA managed a terminal on the north border side and a passenger takes an Aerocalifornia (domestic Mexico) flight, what liability does the SDCRAA have in terms of allowing a passenger to use an airline not subject to routine FAA standards.

Or an even better example what if Cubana or heck Iranair decides to fly to TIJ to access the SoCal expatriate community via the cross-border terminal?

The larger problem is the airspace access and land sharing issues, not a tightly controlled airfield. ICAO standards would over ride the standards of construction. Imagine a metric based airport in the US.....
 
PanAm747
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:19 am

Quote:
I implore you to write this exact post to the Union Tribune opinion section. It is magnificent.

I am honored. Welcome to my Respected Users List.

Indeed, I have written this to the Union Tribune. So far, no reply.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
remcor
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 28):

I know absolutely squat about San Diego and Miramar, but just why are the Marines so tied to this facility??

One major obvious reason must be comfort. Sounds silly when talking about a military base, but would you want to move from sunny beachside San Diego to Victorville? Marines heck, but there are thousands of happy middle-class people who work at Miramar permanently... wouldn't be too happy to move to the high-desert, I'm sure.

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 34):
Or an even better example what if Cubana or heck Iranair decides to fly to TIJ to access the SoCal expatriate community via the cross-border terminal?

Not to get political, but if we had an administration who considered broaching the subject of mending political ties with say Cuba, then allowing access only to this 'loophole' airport would be a nice baby-step toward reconciliation. It would be another option on the diplomatic table. Not like it's ever going to happen, though.
 
2travel2know
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 34):
Or an even better example what if Cubana or heck Iranair decides to fly to TIJ to access the SoCal expatriate community via the cross-border terminal?

There has been CU charters to HAV from TIJ. In an event of a dream-like U.S. Terminal at Mexico TIJ airport, if the U.S.-Cuba remain as now, I really doubt U.S. Port of Entry facilities at such an airport will be open for incoming CU passengers.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 36):
The larger problem is the airspace access and land sharing issues, not a tightly controlled airfield. ICAO standards would over ride the standards of construction. Imagine a metric based airport in the US.....

What is the cost of such a "metric" sacrifice (among other compromises) compared to $17 Billion for an All American New San Diego Airport?
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Remcor (Reply 38):
One major obvious reason must be comfort. Sounds silly when talking about a military base, but would you want to move from sunny beachside San Diego to Victorville? Marines heck, but there are thousands of happy middle-class people who work at Miramar permanently... wouldn't be too happy to move to the high-desert, I'm sure.

1. The decision to move Marines to the Desert was made by the military for the JSF program.
2. Moving the Ospreys to Pendleton is hardly a desert, or a poke in the eye in terms of places to live.
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:30 pm

I'd decided to think outside the box and come up with a solution for you guys. Sell the land that San sits on to Disney and Disney builds an Epcot Center west there making San Diego a "must" see tourist destination. Use the money from the sale to help pay for the new airport, wherever that might be. Than have the State of California finally commit to their high speed rail plan, and have it link Epcot West - the New SAN - Disneyland Anaheim - LAX - FAT - SJC - SFO.

So now, you've linked the three major California Tourist areas San Francisco, Disneyland and San Diego together boosting tourism in California, taken away some of the Air Traffic off the busy South-North Corridor, solved the San problem and given the people of Fresno and alternative to FAT. You can use my plan for free..
 
H53Epilot
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 40):
2. Moving the Ospreys to Pendleton is hardly a desert, or a poke in the eye in terms of places to live.

No room up there, too full. Ain't gonna happen.
 
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STT757
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting Jbmflyer (Reply 29):
I've heard its incredibly hard to relocate marines.....who knows though, i've never personally had to do it..........thankfully

The US is negotiating with Japan right now to move 7,000 Marines off the Island of Okinawa, 6,000 would move to Guam and 1,000 would move to the Japanese Mainland.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 32):
the C-130's can stay at Miramar in a Joint use scenario, as can the reserve unit,

These units might be better off moving to Kaneohe Bay Hawaii.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
DCAYOW
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 41):
I'd decided to think outside the box and come up with a solution for you guys. Sell the land that San sits on to Disney and Disney builds an Epcot Center west there making San Diego a "must" see tourist destination. Use the money from the sale to help pay for the new airport, wherever that might be. Than have the State of California finally commit

Old Walt's first choice for the site of Disneyland was...don't laugh...San Diego.
Retorne ao céu...
 
AirframeAS
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:19 am

My reply to post #26 re: Williams Field. This is NOT and option anymore. The military used to occupy this old air base and is now a civilian airport. The military moved to Luke AFB, west of Phoenix.

IWA is now more of a GA airport and is probably going to become an international airport of offset the traffic for PHX. The City of PHX, IIRC, is bidding to become part owner of IWA.

The type of traffic IWA gets is general aviation, US Customs (M82's & 734's), Mesa Airlines pilot developement program, some occasional military planes not based at IWA, etc etc. My AMT school is on-site IWA.

If any branch of military were to relocate to AZ, the best place would be Luke AFB or Davis-Mothian AFB in TUS.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:56 am

I'm as much an airline/airplane enthusiast as the next guy on this forum. A new airport would be "cool" but it isn't something I'm and most San Diegans are willing to pay for. Despite what our civic boosters say, San Diego cannot fill a daily flight with higher yield passengers and cargo to Narita, London or Frankfurt. We're a spoke. Other airlines need our market to fill planes leaving from their hubs. Deal with it. Higher airfares to fly here on scarce seats; so be it. Flying to San Diego isn't a right, it's a privilege. If you can't afford it, take Greyhound or AMTRAK.

Long live Lindbergh!

Though I've never served in the military, thank goodness for the Marines! May they never surrender at Miramar!
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
Coronado990
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 47):
We're a spoke. Other airlines need our market to fill planes leaving from their hubs.

See Narita, London and Frankfurt.

I do not think hubs are only domestic. They are international as well. LAX cannot be the only spoke from these hubs that serves the entire Southern California area...there will not be enough room for LAX to do that.

There needs to be an airport that helps Orange County and L.A. as well as San Diego and these three counties need to be connected by high speed rail.

There needs to be an airport that serves the growing population of San Diego's North County other than Carlsbad/Palomar Airport.

Lindbergh needs to remain as a LCC/Charter flight/business jet airport that with all the bells and whistles..i.e; curfews, domestic flights only and a gate limit.

I would be satisfied with a one runway set up 12,000 feet in length with no curfews so cargo can flourish. Marketing wise I can only think of one site that works and that is Stuart Mesa in Camp Pendleton near the Oceanside VOR.

What works for me is that our government constantly reminds me how much danger I am. So okay...lets put this new airport somewhere where it will be safe and protected from those nasty terrorists....in a military camp!
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
H53Epilot
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RE: $17 Billion To Build New Airport At San Diego

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 47):
I'm as much an airline/airplane enthusiast as the next guy on this forum. A new airport would be "cool" but it isn't something I'm and most San Diegans are willing to pay for. Despite what our civic boosters say, San Diego cannot fill a daily flight with higher yield passengers and cargo to Narita, London or Frankfurt. We're a spoke. Other airlines need our market to fill planes leaving from their hubs. Deal with it. Higher airfares to fly here on scarce seats; so be it. Flying to San Diego isn't a right, it's a privilege. If you can't afford it, take Greyhound or AMTRAK.

Long live Lindbergh!

Though I've never served in the military, thank goodness for the Marines! May they never surrender at Miramar!

Most San Diegans aren't willing to pay for a new airport. The one's who are will come up with a good, cheap alternative besides Miramar, which the Marines won't give up. Just remind yourselves that she doesn't exist. High speed rail to LAX will have to suffice.

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