steeler83
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WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:39 am

Hello all,

I have posted some thoughts about WN's presence in PIT regarding their additional service being added to PHL. WN has said that they are very happy with their service in PIT considering the demand and were considering adding more service, including adding more destinations according to press releases in the local newspapers. It has been a year roughly since WN added service here, and they only have 20 daily flights. The last time they added any service there was several months ago when they added TPA and PHX, as well as additional flights to PHL and MDW.

One good reason for the lack of expansion is of course the O&D. It is still rather low compared to other airports its size, and especially regarding the O&D in PHL, but statistics released by the Airport Authority continue to suggest that O&Ds are increasing at a record pace, despite posting lower pax loads as a result of the US dehubbing there.

I have also posted arguements that perhaps other airlines could move in and build up a hub here now that US has moved out (at least its hub has)... I know that the O&D loads right now would not support a hub operation for any airline, but let's consider what Pittsburgh business market is looking like:

1. The Pittsburgh Planning Commission has just approved of a proposed 9-story building on South Side to house North American Headquarters for scores of Asian-based technology companies. Already, there are roughly 50 signed agreements from corporate managements of those companies. The building complex is set to bring at least several hundred jobs into the city

2. Reed Smith, a Pittsburgh Based law firm, has merged with a London-based group to become one of the world's largest firms. Reed Smith will still be based in Pittsburgh; it is the anchor tenant in the proposed Three PNC Plaza, a 25-30 storey office/mixed use building in downtown

3. Toshiba anounced that it will buy Pittsburgh-based Westinghouse assets. Westinghouse also has anounced that it will be tripling its number of engineers at its Pittsburgh base to 9,000. Hopefully, Toshiba will stay committed to keeping its employee base in Pittsburgh; the last thing this city needs is to lose another considerable business operation. This city cannot afford it and Mayor O'Connor and company need to be persuasive about them staying here!!

4. As said before, PNC is expanding its headquarters in Pittsburgh, and it completed somewhat of an alliance with Merril Lynch regarding their shares of Blackrock. That alliance is worth almost a trillion dollars. It is Pennsylvania's largest banking/financial firm and has aquired other banks as well to expand its presence nationwide.

Needless to say, Pittsburgh's business market should hopefully increase considerably as its downtown continues to show growth. There is some commercial growth in downtown, but there is mostly residential growth, which is not at all a bad thing. With a growth in residence there, more services will be needed here, such as dining and entertainment. The north shore is also looking at an expansion of the central business district with DelMonte and Alcoa having large corporate presences there. With such growth and interest in the region, this should really drive up the demand enough to warant a rather large air traffic operation at PIT, maybe not as large as what US had 5 years ago, but certainly better than the one that they have now...

Any thoughts? I am ready for comments and criticism...

edited for errors and cockroach removal  Smile

[Edited 2006-04-19 23:40:53]
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JetBlueAUS
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
The last time they added any service there was several months ago when they added TPA and PHX, as well as additional flights to PHL and MDW.

I don't know but it seems like WN is focusing on PHL right now. They just announced that on July 2, they would be starting PHL-CMH route. Also, they plan to add/start service from PHL to: Two daily flights to Nashville, Tennessee, they are adding one daily flight to Providence, and they are also adding service to MCO which overall brings to seven daily new flights. Probably since the O&D Market is greater in PHL they decided to start expansion there.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bizj/060419/1274864.html?.v=3

I'm guessing WN will build in PIT, but they will probably grow in a few other cities first.
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atrude777
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:30 am

As you knwo SWA will do whatever is profitable at PIT whether operating 15 DD or 200.

If WN sees business is growing and more flights will be needed expect WN to snatch it up.

Alex
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roseflyer
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:43 am

PIT is an interesting city. It stradles the line between being part of the Midwest and being part of the Northeast. It's economy is sort of a mix between the two. The city as a whole has decent air service with US. It is much better then other cities that use to have a big US presence like Baltimore, Indianapolis and Dayton. Southwest certainly will be a good fit for the city, just like how it serves many cities in the midwest. However there just isn't much growth in that part of the country. Aside from MDW, WN hasn't been expanding much in the middle of the country even though there are a decent number of airports that it serves. 20 flights isn't that bad. I personally can't see PIT ever growing like PHL has. WN is really trying to expand along the East Coast. PIT is part of that, but afterall it a city of 2 million people and already has a ton of air service. I would expect PIT service to be at about the level of CLE, DTW, or IND. So maybe a few more flights if things work out, but I personally doubt there will be a huge expansion.

Aviation in the Midwest has not been expanding much outside of Chicago. In fact many airports have lost service. This is especially the case when the A320s and 737NGs started flying transcon routes, which meant that less traffic was to connect through midwestern cities between smaller coastal markets.
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Flaps
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:44 am

What is it exactly that you expect from them? They have nearly doubled the number of flights and destinations from PIT in their first year. They never stated that PIT was to be a major destination. Hell, Im just happy they are here at all. Plenty of communities would kill just to have the WN service that we have now. Rome wasnt built in a day. WN has a multitude of opportunities systemwide. They will act first on those that look the best.
 
Lumberton
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:53 am

In a nutshell: no new industry--the kind that'll attract jobs and young people. The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers. I'm not optimistic that WN is going to expand much beyond the present levels. I'd be delighted if they did! It will take an economic miracle to get Western Pennsylvania going the way it was in the '50s and '60s. Until that happens, there is nothing to keep 20 and 30 somethings around to start businesses, raise families, etc. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I remember the "boom times" there. Everytime I go back it only seems to get worse.  sigh 
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steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
20 flights isn't that bad. I personally can't see PIT ever growing like PHL has. WN is really trying to expand along the East Coast. PIT is part of that, but afterall it a city of 2 million people and already has a ton of air service.

Oh I don't think it will grow like that either, but I thought it would have a little more than 20 flights. That is true, 20 flights is not bad at all, considering that they are now the number 2 carrier at PIT regarding pax loads. Although they're a distant number 2 well behind US. I just thought that given what they've been saying in their press releases and in the Post-Gazette, they might have added a few more flights if not at least one more destination or so... I guess they don't want to play the game of Risk Pittsburgh-edition just yet...

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
This is especially the case when the A320s and 737NGs started flying transcon routes, which meant that less traffic was to connect through midwestern cities between smaller coastal markets.

PIT used to be THE city for east-west transcon traffic, but that has changed when US removed the hub and put that traffic through PHL and CLT

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
What is it exactly that you expect from them? They have nearly doubled the number of flights and destinations from PIT in their first year.

It's not that I want anything from them... I dunno, it's just that after US dehubbed there everyone, including myself, looked towards WN to pick up the slack. I suppose they have done this for now.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
They never stated that PIT was to be a major destination. Hell, Im just happy they are here at all.

That is true, they never did say that they wanted PIT to be another MDW or BWI for them

Quoting Flaps (Reply 4):
Plenty of communities would kill just to have the WN service that we have now.

True, ATL and CLT would LOVE to have WN service there. WN, unfortunately, doesn't want to enter large hub airports, and both are certainly in that category...

I suppose that if and when the business market becomes more stable and strong enough to support stronger O&D, maybe WN would consider adding more service there, and if not WN, would anyone else consider adding service like B6 which will launch service on June 30. FL? How about F9. I know that George and the A.C.A.A. are talking with them to try and land them for PIT-DEN. I guess if WN adds this route in the future before F9 does, then we can forget about F9 ever coming to PIT...

Perhaps I should have renamed this as the future of LCCs in PIT...
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steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers.

And this is absolutely murdering the city, and yet there are people who actually say that Pittsburgh is the place to retire to. Just what this dying city needs, more people to speed up the financial death process.

I suppose if the city and county merged, making Allegheny County one massive city to put it back on the map, I suppose this would be a quantum leap in the right direction for the city. These 100 or so municipalities need to get it into their heads that the city needs to merge in order to save money and make more money as well. Right now, Pittsburgh is in a bit of financial jeopordy; it has been posting loss after loss year after year under the Murphy administration.

In addition to this merger, this would also make Pittsburgh one of the more populous cities with 1.3 million people living in Pittsburgh Proper if you will, somewhat like what Philadelphia is right now. Maybe more companies would consider Pittsburgh for an expansion as opposed to the reduction of a Pittsburgh presence...

I absolutely ABHOR the fact that Pittsburgh has more of a senior population than it does 20-40 year olds. As you stated, and I agree, that is absolutely terrible for the city of Pittsburgh, and I am not sure of how to deal with this. Companies are looking at this and are giving Pit the door mat or cold shoulder treatments. Therefore, adding more corporate space to attract business I guess is not the answer to this problem...

Something else that needs to be rectified: the state's malpractice insurance program. Healthcare is probably the largest chunk of SW PA's economy, and thanks to those absurd laws regarding malpractice insurance, those doctors cannot afford to live here and move out. This is certainly not good for Pittsburgh, also considering that they are building a nationwide presence as well as an international one. They opened a research and medical center in Italy recently. Hopefully the blockheads in PA State office will do something about this, or are they really out to shoot Pittsburgh, as well as the rest of the state, in the foot...

I don't mean to be harsh in any sense, but this is the sad truth

[Edited 2006-04-20 01:20:54]
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HPRamper
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:18 am

US never de-hubbed PIT, so I don't understand the talk about that. The only thing it is NOT anymore is THE hub for US. It's still a hub and will continue to be. How many US flights does PIT still have? Including express flights, which last time I checked still had wings and engines and still actually carried people places?
There are more US mainline flights from PIT than CO mainline flights out of CLE. And I don't see too many people saying CLE is no longer a CO hub.
 
steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:27 am

You are somewhat right HPramper... However, here are some numbers regarding services between CLE and PIT...

CLE has over 220 flights, mainline and express
PIT has only 175 mainline and express and US continues to reduce its presence at PIT. It just removed more express routes from its network, including but not limited to JST and State College, so that 175 might drop even further... I don't remember how many mainline flights PIT still has, but it is nothing to be impressed with. I want to say somewhere around the ballpark of 40 or 50 mainline with the rest being express, but I am not too sure with those numbers. Someone else posted such numbers but that was on a different thread a while ago...
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N670UW
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:16 am

182 a day on your average weekday

45 mainline (32S, 737, 757)
137 express (77 turboprop, 47 regional jet, 13 E-170)

Mainline cities right now are BOS, CLT, DCA, DEN, FLL, LAS, LAX, LGA, MBJ (Saturdays), MCO, MIA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PHX, RSW, SAN, SFO, SJU (weekend), TPA

CUN resumes Saturdays on June 10
SEA resumes 6x weekly June 11
MBJ ends after May 6


N670UW

[Edited 2006-04-20 02:21:31]
 
steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting N670UW (Reply 10):
182 a day on your average weekday

45 mainline (32S, 737, 757)
137 express (77 turboprop, 47 regional jet, 13 E-170)



N670UW

So I was right about the mainline number, but there are 7 more regional flights than I thought, at least according to that one post that stated that there were 175 daily flights, but I guess they didn't check their facts... Do you suspect the number of E170s to go up considerably, considering the anouncement of Republic building a base in PIT?

Thanks for that info though  Smile
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ncflyer
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:32 am

I don't care about the press releases on all the japanese companies and what not, like its brethren in Cleveland (where I live), Detroit, Buffalo, etc., PIT just isn't growing and won't be growing as fast as other cities in the sun belt. Unions, aging population, weather, reliance on manufacturing, high tax structure-- you know the reasons. PIT's service in Cleveland, DTW, CMH, and other comparable cities is capped in the ballpark of 20. BWI grows in part because the airport is able to move share from DCA, MDW from ORD. Plus those big cities are just much healthier than the rust belt. WN invests most heavily in Chicago, Phoenix, Baltimore, Las Vegas, Florida, seems to me. Makes a lot of sense. And by the way if Wright is appealed, watch out DAL.
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:33 am

I just checked on this. DCA and BOS both have more mainline flights daily than PIT. Yet US still only calls them "focus cities." US must really think highly of those express flights out of PIT...I'd like to see total enplanements on US aircraft (mainline + express) out of these cities. It is possible that the only reason PIT is still referred to as a hub is because of the heavy maintenance there, and the administrative facilities on site.
 
WN57787
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:33 am

WN will Not have PIT grow as fast as PHL.. PHL is the Fastest Grown city for WN.. Look at RDU WN has been thare 7 yrs and only have 27 flts A Day.. RDU had 19 Flts for 3 yrs Before Growning Aging. it takes time to bild.
 
vega
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 1):
I don't know but it seems like WN is focusing on PHL right now. They just announced that on July 2, they would be starting PHL-CMH route. Also, they plan to add/start service from PHL to: Two daily flights to Nashville, Tennessee, they are adding one daily flight to Providence, and they are also adding service to MCO which overall brings to seven daily new flights. Probably since the O&D Market is greater in PHL they decided to start expansion there.

Southwest has expressed a desire to increase to over 100 daily flights from PHL. The only holdup is the lack of available gates. This should be alleviated once the Terminal E expansion and all the shuffling of airlines within the airport is completed. A major effort has been to move all of the international carriers to A-West (where they should have been in the first place) and to make A-East essentially a Domestic terminal. Several airlines in other terminals will then move, or have already moved, to A-East. The thought being that WN could potentially occupy an entire Terminal ("E" or "D") as their own.
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 11):
Do you suspect the number of E170s to go up considerably, considering the anouncement of Republic building a base in PIT?

I hope so, maybe that would allow US to right size more markets ex.PIT. I remember when they first came online and PIT was a MidAtlantic base E-70's were flying PIT-ATL,BNA,SYR,MCI and BUF amongst places.  frown 

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steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:54 am

Then I think MidAtlantic was in PHL, and US anounced that it would close its MidAtlantic service after it sold the assets to Republic. It's bad news for PHL, considering the bulk of the employees were based out there, but better news for PIT. The down side here though, is that former MidAtlantic employees being rehired by Republic are getting lower salaries. But yeah, hopefully this base will get a little bit bigger... If it does get any bigger, like if Republic winds up employing some 1,000 or so employees at some point and run some 30 or 40 E170 operations per day, what would that look like overall for US? Would there be any need for any more mainline equipment considering the amount of regional feed coming into PIT? Or is this once again my passion for PIT running amok? I can live with heavy-duty regional service at PIT; it's better than nothing!!
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steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:26 am

Yeah Vega, that would be nice to see WN take up an entire concourse at PHL. I agree that the international gates should have been at A-west myself. Are they going to extend A West so that it parallels the runways? I am sure that considering the international expansion that they would have to expand A-West...
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USPIT10L
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 5):
In a nutshell: no new industry--the kind that'll attract jobs and young people. The "young people" thing is the problem. The demographics in Pittsburgh (and all of Western Pennsylvania) are not encouraging. Too many old people--the kind that are not frequent travelers. I'm not optimistic that WN is going to expand much beyond the present levels. I'd be delighted if they did! It will take an economic miracle to get Western Pennsylvania going the way it was in the '50s and '60s. Until that happens, there is nothing to keep 20 and 30 somethings around to start businesses, raise families, etc. Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I remember the "boom times" there. Everytime I go back it only seems to get worse.



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7):
And this is absolutely murdering the city, and yet there are people who actually say that Pittsburgh is the place to retire to. Just what this dying city needs, more people to speed up the financial death process.

I suppose if the city and county merged, making Allegheny County one massive city to put it back on the map, I suppose this would be a quantum leap in the right direction for the city. These 100 or so municipalities need to get it into their heads that the city needs to merge in order to save money and make more money as well. Right now, Pittsburgh is in a bit of financial jeopordy; it has been posting loss after loss year after year under the Murphy administration.

In addition to this merger, this would also make Pittsburgh one of the more populous cities with 1.3 million people living in Pittsburgh Proper if you will, somewhat like what Philadelphia is right now. Maybe more companies would consider Pittsburgh for an expansion as opposed to the reduction of a Pittsburgh presence...

I absolutely ABHOR the fact that Pittsburgh has more of a senior population than it does 20-40 year olds. As you stated, and I agree, that is absolutely terrible for the city of Pittsburgh, and I am not sure of how to deal with this. Companies are looking at this and are giving Pit the door mat or cold shoulder treatments. Therefore, adding more corporate space to attract business I guess is not the answer to this problem...

Something else that needs to be rectified: the state's malpractice insurance program. Healthcare is probably the largest chunk of SW PA's economy, and thanks to those absurd laws regarding malpractice insurance, those doctors cannot afford to live here and move out. This is certainly not good for Pittsburgh, also considering that they are building a nationwide presence as well as an international one. They opened a research and medical center in Italy recently. Hopefully the blockheads in PA State office will do something about this, or are they really out to shoot Pittsburgh, as well as the rest of the state, in the foot...

I don't mean to be harsh in any sense, but this is the sad truth

Unfortunately Steeler83, I don't share your optimism. There is no way Pittsburgh is getting better. It's going to get much, much worse. The taxes are too high and the local leaders have no vision. They just want to line their own pockets with more and more money. I personally believe that if you don't have a job in medicine or the medical field, and you're under the age of 30, you should get out of Pittsburgh as quickly as you can. There is no future here, except in medicine. Otherwise, don't get bogged down with a family and mortgage and be stuck here. There are plenty of cities around the country that are growing and have vision. Pittsburgh simply isn't one of them.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 8):
US never de-hubbed PIT

US officially de-hubbed PIT in November 2004. It has been a focus city ever since. Check out every US Airways press release. It says so right on the bottom with Fort Lauderdale, Washington, Boston and New York LaGuardia. We have great service for a city our size, and again, we should are extremely lucky. Ideally, PIT's air service should mirror someplace like CMH or BNA. RDU has done incredibly well, with AA's subsidized trans-Atlantic flight to LGW.
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copaair737
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:22 am

Would WN ever look at adding West Coast service from PIT, say to OAK and/or LAX?

Also, I have to agree with you guys about the state of Pittsburgh and the Rust Belt in general. Everything is in a state of decay. PIT isn't the only city like that, other ones, like YNG, are going the same way. The population demographics aren't helping it either. Too old. I just don't see it getting much, if at all, better for the cities of the Rust Belt.

-Copa
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airwave
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:32 am

Ok, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion at this time, but I just gotta say...Steeler, I can't believe you actually went with my thread title idea!! LMAO  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
edited for errors and cockroach removal

Oy! That's my line...sorta, lol.

Airwave  eyebrow 
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USPIT10L
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 20):
Would WN ever look at adding West Coast service from PIT, say to OAK and/or LAX?

I doubt it, especially since all they're doing now is connecting the dots. Way too much traffic on US to make it work.
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vegasplanes
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Thread starter):
I have also posted arguements that perhaps other airlines could move in and build up a hub here now that US has moved out (at least its hub has)... I know that the O&D loads right now would not support a hub operation for any airline, but let's consider what Pittsburgh business market is looking like:

I would not count on PIT being a major hub in the sense it was when US was running full throttle ever again. Too many other hubs in the region, ORD, MDW, DTW, CLE, CVG, PHL, EWR, etc. etc. Seems like you can get to most places n/s from PIT, just not on one airline. Question number 1 for O/D growth, what are the demographics of the PIT metro area. Old or young, doing good $$$ wise, or declining ? How's population trends, growing, staying the same, shrinking ? Don't forget about the baby-boomers, they are starting to retire now, doubt they are going to stay in climes like PIT and like, most likely they will start heading out to FLA, NV, AZ, SC and such. If the area is growing, O/D will grow, if they area is staying the same, shrinking, not much is going to happen in the way of more flights, let alone a hub.

As for WN "only have 20 daily flights" from PIT. They just opened the station, they are not big in the midwest with the exception of MDW. Look at DTW, a station for WN since the 80's, they only have 16 flights per day and the Detroit metro area is a lot larger than the PIT metro area. At least PIT has N/S to FLA, DTW has to connect in BNA.

By the way, which airline are you expecting to move a hub into PIT ?
 
steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:36 am

Mayor O'Connor is trying to turn things around for the city though. It does have a formidable business market, granted not as strong as some of the other markets out there and probably not going to be for some time... Many people are looking into the theory of a boomerang effect though, where many people who fled the rust belt for the sunbelt wind up coming back to the rust belt states... a heck of a theory if you ask me, but some people have done such...

As far as what airline I would think would want to build up service in PIT, I was thinking FL, but that is just supremely wishful thinking... Well, I guess considering your post, USPIT, about PIT only getting much worse, I am getting the hell out of this hell hole... no one cares about Pittsburgh. I liked Baltimore, so I guess I'll move there and declare that my future home! So much for my being optimistic...  sarcastic 
[Edited 2006-04-20 04:43:05]

[Edited 2006-04-20 04:50:33]
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vegasplanes
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 24):
where many people who fled the rust belt for the sunbelt wind up coming back to the rust belt states... a heck of a theory if you ask me, but some people have done such...

I am one of those many that left, I'd rather Eat Sh*t and Die before I live anywhere near the midwest again. No offense to the midwesteners, just my personal tastes.

Seriously though, going by population numbers nothing like that is occuring, LAS be one of the fastest, if not fastest growing large metro area (over 1 mil) percentage wise. PHX area gained somewhere around 130,000 new residents last year. FLA is growing like wildfire along with ATL, and HOU. I got a feeling those "many people" you refer to have some real estate they need to sell in the midwest before they get out.  Wink
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 25):
I am one of those many that left, I'd rather Eat Sh*t and Die before I live anywhere near the midwest again. No offense to the midwesteners, just my personal tastes.

I have looked at Baltimore and I was happy with what I saw there, but I still have my optimism towards PIT though. Sure I may no longer live there, but I still have a passion for it. That place is my home and I don't want to see it become the capital of has-been country...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
atct
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 8):
US never de-hubbed PIT,

Yea they did.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
and the administrative facilities on site.

What facilities? Last I check reservations is gone, training is gone, and the other administrative offices at parkway center are gone. Other than the frequent flyer lounge, and general airport/hangar offices, there is nothing left other than PSA.
Trikes are for kids!
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1870
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting ATCT (Reply 27):
training is gone

Training's still here. Went to it for PSA training. They also had mainline people there too. Building 2 in RIDC.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:46 pm

Isn't PIT the US Operations HQ?
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1870
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 29):
Isn't PIT the US Operations HQ?

For US East, yes. At least until it's moved to Tempe.  Wink
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
mah584jr
Posts: 422
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 29):
Isn't PIT the US Operations HQ?

PIT is US' plane maintenance center. In fact, it will be through 2010.

http://kdka.com/topstories/local_story_105121233.html
 
steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 31):
PIT is US' plane maintenance center. In fact, it will be through 2010.

And there is a fairly recent article in the Post-Gazette that states this... They have agreed to an extension for 5 maintenance structures for heavy maintenance. I guess that US will decide to up and move that out in 2010, considering that things continue to deteriorate in PIT...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
steeler83
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:05 pm

I see it's too late for me to edit that last post, but what are the odds of there being an added cargo presence there? They are rapidly building up cargo facilities there that could be ablie to accomodate some 20 planes, with more such structure in the works. Will PIT be successful with attracting cargo services at all in the future if no pax service is added? Just a thought, especially with the extension on I-376 and the construction of I-576 which will loop around the suthern periphery of the city... I think that would be a great way of creating jobs in the region IMHO

[Edited 2006-04-20 07:06:40]
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
HPRamper
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:32 pm

Maintenance for aircraft and ground equipment as well, in addition to a large mail sort and cargo building. US still has quite the infrastructure there and does not appear to be giving any of it up.

So they still have all the heavy maintenance, big mail and cargo facility, training, flight operations HQ, and a US Airways Club. Basically, a hub, just without the flights  bigthumbsup 

I'm not sure how they would draw cargo carriers to the area. PIT isn't really too far away from the big cargo hubs at ILN, TOL and even IND and SDF. Did you mean a cargo center as in local distribution, or as a sort of hub?
 
N670UW
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:56 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 34):
So they still have all the heavy maintenance

Not all, CLT has a large heavy mx facility as well. The 757 overhauls are on their way to PIT (I believe).  Smile

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 34):
big mail and cargo facility

I thought those leases were rejected during Bankruptcy I?

***

Speaking of cargo, anyone know who runs those Cessna's painted in FedEx colors I see on the cargo ramp from Business 60? Is that Options? Wiggins?



N670UW
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:44 pm

Try looking at the bright side.

I thought it would be interesting to compare O&D statistics and avg. fare information on the city-pairs WN serves nonstop out of PIT now. I'm comparing Q3 2004 before WN came to PIT (Then) to Q3 2005 - the first full quarter WN offered service at PIT and the latest data available. (Now)

PIT to:

MDW/ORD - 412 miles

Then - 1015 daily passengers
$115.92 - avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - UA 23.54%

Now - 1520 daily passengers (up 49.75%)
$82.88 - avg. fare (down 28.24%)
Mkt shr leader - WN 42.10% ($56.42)

LAS - 1910 miles

Then - 860 daily passengers
$139.32 avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - US 62.88%

Now - 826 daily passengers (down 03.95%)
$152.80 avg. fare (up 09.67%)
Mkt shr leader - US 45.30%
WN mkt shr - 20.14% - ($133.98)

MCO - 834 miles

Then - 866 daily passengers
$115.83 - avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - US 66.76%

Now - 1220 daily passengers (up 40.87%)
$99.82 - avg. fare - (down 13.82%)
Mkt shr leader - US 53.75%
FL mkt shr - 24.16% - ($92.94)

PHL - 267 miles

Then - 422 daily passengers
$265.90 avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - US 86.96%

Now - 1402 daily passengers (up 232%)
$83.82 avg. fare (down - 68.47%)
Mkt shr leader - US 50.48%
WN mkt shr - 45.39% - ($56.58)

PHX - 1813 miles

Then - 305 daily passengers
$179.99 avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - US 51.65%

Now - 334 daily passengers (up 09.51%)
$175.93 avg. fare (down 0225%)
Mkt shr leader - US 51.22%

TPA - 873 miles

Then - 444 daily passengers
$138.04 avg. fare
Mkt shr leader - US 71.38%

Now - 624 daily passengers (up 40.54%)
$116.59 avg. fare (down 15.53%)
Mkt shr leader - US 57.34%
WN mkt shr 20.78 ($100.01)

Keep in mind that many other cities where Southwest has between 20-30 daily departures have had WN service for years. DTW was opened in 1987 and I think they have less than 20 flights per day.

LoneStarMike

 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:14 pm

So what about WN's future at PIT? They seem to be getting the most bang for the buck with short to mid-haul flights of 750 miles or less. Here are some other markets less than 750 miles from PIT that WN might consider for future nonstop service. Stats are for Q3 2005)

ALB - 367 miles

66 daily passengers
$297.50 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 54.03%
DH mkt shr - 36.57% ($184.57)

The avg. fare (all carriers) is 81 cents a mile. Even when DH flew it, their avg. fare was 50.3 cents per mile. WN could charge an avg. fare of 30 cents a mile ($110.00) which would represent a 40.4% additional savings from DH's then avg. fare and a 63.02% additional savings from the avg. fares among all carriers. They could possible bring the daily passenger count up to 200-300.

BWI - 210 miles

54 daily passengers
$352.53 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 94.94%

I am really surprised Southwest has not announced nonstop service in this city pair already. Avg. fares of $1.68 per mile -- are you kidding me?! Plus doen't BWI have around 26 gates now and only about 170 daily departures?

Again, charging an avg. fare of 30 cents a mile would result in an avg. fare of $$63.00 -- a whopping 82.13% fare reduction from the current avg. fare. Maybe 400-500 passengers a day?

BUF - 186 miles

18 daily passengers
$228.19 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 58.84%

Well this route certainly doesn't see a lot of O&D traffic probably because of its short distance, but avg. fares of $1.22 per mile don't help. It's similar in length to DAL - OKC (181 miles); AUS-DAL (189 miles); and SAT - HOU/IAH - (190 miles.)

DAL - OKC sees 343 daily passengers at an avg. fare of $89.83 or 49.62 cents per mile

AUS - DAL sees 1261 daily passengers at an avg. fare (all carriers) of $89.83 or 47.52 cents a mile.

SAT - HOU sees 637 daily passengers at an avg. fare of $86.99 or 45.78 cents per mile.

My gut feeling is that PIT - BUF might have statistics similar to what WN has now in DAL - OKC if WN were to offer nonstop service.

I don't know if WN could make it work or not. I think they have better opportunities elsewhere right now.

CLT - 366 miles

I know, I know... WN doesn't fly into CLT, but it's often mentioned as a possible new city, so I'm including its data.)

191 daily passengers
$237.95 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 64.41%
FL mkt shr - 11.31% (131.46)

A WN avg. fare of 30 cents a mile would be $109.80 - a 16.47% avg. savings over FL's avg. fare and a 53.85% saings over the avg. fare among all carriers. Has the potential to generate lots of new traffic, but frequency would be a key. Maybe 4 daily nonstops to start?

DTW - 201 miles

118 daily passengers
$252.38 avg. fare
NW mkt shr - 65.22%
US mkt shr - 30.53% (239.52)

A short flight, but it's longer to drive because you have to get around Lake Erie. The avg. fare (all carriers) is $1.25 per mile.

NW is the mkt shr leader with an avg fare of $261.75 or $1.30 per mile. US is the "low fare" leader with a 30.53% share and an avg. fare of $239.52 or $1.19 per mile. Between the two of them they control 95.75% of the market.

If Southwest could charge an average of 40 cents per mile (well above its costs) the avg. fare would drop down to $80.40 or a 68.14% less than it is now. I would expect to see at least 500 daily passengers if that were the case (probably more.)

I see definitie potential here, but I think Southwest will wait and see what happens. If NW reduces service in this market as part of its reorganization plans, you may see Southwest add it. If not, Southwest may wait.

BDL - 406 miles

252 daily passengers
$180.75 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 88.23%
WN mkt shr - 4.52%

While avg. fares (44.5 cents per mile) are still high in this market it's not ridiculously high like in some of the other markets. This is probably a "back burner" city-pair as far as WN nonstop service goes.

IND - 325 miles

108 daily passengers
$166.27 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 82.53%

The avg. fare on this route is currently 51.1 cents per mile. This route is similar in length to PHL - RDU (336 mles) which saw 1512 daily passengers in Q3 2005 at avg. fares of $76.19 or 22.67 cents per mile.

WN could charge an avg. of 25 cents per mile for an avg. fare of $81.25 which would reresent a 51.1% savings over the current avg. fare. They might be able to generate between 300 - 400 daily passengers.

JAX - 695 miles

180 daily passengers
$119.71 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 45.09%
DL mkt shr - 22.76%

Ang. fare is only 17.2 cents per mile now, plus WN only has 2 gates in JAX. JAX or the Chamber of Commerce or some group recently formed an airline coalition in an affort to get more nonstops and new nonstop destinations, but right now, etter opportuities exist elsewhere for WN.

SDF - 335 miles

64 daily passengers
$211.12 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 71.64%

The avg. fare (all carriers) was 63 cents per mile.

WN was the low fare leader on this route with a 9.16% share and an avg. fare of $142.81 or 42.62 cents per mile. Were WN to offer nonstop service in this market, their avg. fares would probably be lower than now on acents per mile basis. Probably another "back burner" city-pair as far as nonstop WN service goes.

MHT - 485 miles

185 daily passengers
$149.62 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 75.20%
WN mkt shr - 16.58% (130.38)

Another "back burner" route that will probably continue to be serviced with direct and connecting service for now.

BNA - 462 miles

165 daily passengers
$144.70 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 68.88%
WN mkt shr - 14.54% (123.03)

Another "back burner" route that will probably continue to be serviced with direct and connecting service for now.

ORF - 330 miles

34 daily passengers
$236.15 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 77.10% ($246.98)
UA mkt shr - 15.86% ($207.63)

Avg. fare was 71.5 cents per mile. UA's avg. fares aren't much better than US' and together they both control 93% of the market. A definite possibility.

PVD - 467 miles

241 daily passengers
$168.98 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 80.49% ($173.21)
WN mkt shr - 13.60% ($135.52)

I think WN will continue to build this market by offering direct or connecting service through PHL. Back burner for now but definitely a possibiity of nonstop service in the future.

RDU - 328 miles

173 daily passengers
$163.35 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 82.49 ($164.55)%
WN mkt shr - 4.65% ($132.20)

If WN offered this route nonstop, their avg. fares would probably drop further. For now, they'll probably just offer direct or connecting service.

STL - 553 miles

167 daily passengers
$215.06 avg. fare
US mkt shr - 48.34% ($256.00)
WN mkt shr - 20.72% ($140.61)

A definite possibility whose prospects look even better if Congress eliminates the through-ticketing provisions of the Wright Amendment. STL sits midway between PIT and DAL and all three cities are more or less in a straight line. I definitely think PIT-STL-DAL would work, if it were legal. And WN has 12 gates at STL and less than 70 daily departures and they already operate the DAL-STL leg.

IAD/DCA - 205 miles

404 daily passengers
$176.28 avg. fare
DH mkt shr - 47.23% (109.13)

DH is gone now, and they haven't announced which cities will be served nonstop from IAD, so this is another possibility. Even at 40 cents per mile, WN's avg. fare of $82.00 would be 24.8% lower than what DH's avg. fare was back then.

It will be interesting to see what WN looks like at PIT in another year or two.

LoneStarMike

 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 19):
Unfortunately Steeler83, I don't share your optimism. There is no way Pittsburgh is getting better. It's going to get much, much worse. The taxes are too high and the local leaders have no vision. They just want to line their own pockets with more and more money. I personally believe that if you don't have a job in medicine or the medical field, and you're under the age of 30, you should get out of Pittsburgh as quickly as you can. There is no future here, except in medicine. Otherwise, don't get bogged down with a family and mortgage and be stuck here. There are plenty of cities around the country that are growing and have vision. Pittsburgh simply isn't one of them.

 checkmark  The place also has a reputation for unions and labor unrest. This isn't meant to be inflamatory, but it makes business startup in certain sectors (like manufacturing) very risky. How many foreign start ups have located there? I only know of two in the last 30 years: VW and Sony. VW folded, Sony came in, and now they are closing. I'm sure there may be one or two others, but no one is going to bring in manufacturing jobs, invest hundreds of millions of dollars, and then confront an organizing drive. The midset of most people and the politicians in Allegheny County is still stuck back in the '50s and '60s.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4602
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting N670UW (Reply 35):
Not all, CLT has a large heavy mx facility as well. The 757 overhauls are on their way to PIT (I believe).

I meant all the heavy mx it had before. CLT and PIT do share the heavy work.

Quoting N670UW (Reply 35):
I thought those leases were rejected during Bankruptcy I?

They must have gotten them back. Press release wasn't long ago, a few months maybe? 5 year leases if I'm not mistaken.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1185
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:11 pm

The Caravans are operated by Wiggins.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):
Sony came in, and now they are closing.

I thought they were keeping some of the jobs due to the high demand for hi-def and plasma TVs, according to articles in both the Post-Gazette and the Tribune Review

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 39):
They must have gotten them back. Press release wasn't long ago, a few months maybe? 5 year leases if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, a few months? try a few weeks ago according to the Post Gazette. I think I made a post about that earlier on this thread if not another one. They are keeping their lease of 5 mx facilities there thru 2010. I am sure that they'll move all of the mx down to CLT or out to PHL and out source more people as if that will be some surprise...  sarcastic 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1870
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):
The place also has a reputation for unions and labor unrest. This isn't meant to be inflamatory, but it makes business startup in certain sectors (like manufacturing) very risky. How many foreign start ups have located there? I only know of two in the last 30 years: VW and Sony. VW folded, Sony came in, and now they are closing. I'm sure there may be one or two others, but no one is going to bring in manufacturing jobs, invest hundreds of millions of dollars, and then confront an organizing drive. The midset of most people and the politicians in Allegheny County is still stuck back in the '50s and '60s.

I wholeheartedly agree. One of my best friends has this 50s-60s "union mentality" and it has hurt him everywhere he's been. I myself don't particularly care for them, the baseball strike in '94 killed any faith I had in unions. I'm hoping to get on with an airline and get out--move on with my life where there's actually a future.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4602
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 41):
Yeah, a few months? try a few weeks ago according to the Post Gazette.

Right, it was in our March 25 company newsletter. Time must really be moving slowly for me.
I also remember posting about it then, on another thread as well.
 
Devil505x
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 3:55 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:49 am

Is PHL a "gold mine" for WN? They seem to expand there quite a bit. They started there with about 30 flights/day more or less as well. While I am sure they do well at PIT I seem to notice more good news about PHL.
 
airwave
Posts: 1105
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 3:42 am

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 44):
Is PHL a "gold mine" for WN? They seem to expand there quite a bit. They started there with about 30 flights/day more or less as well. While I am sure they do well at PIT I seem to notice more good news about PHL.

Oh dear, I think you'll incur the wrath of Steeler83 for that, lol. If you take a look at the following thread, you'll see a lot of questions vis a vis WN in PHL answered.
WN Starts Nonstop PHL To BNA And CMH (by WN57787 Apr 19 2006 in Civil Aviation)

My good buddy Steeler started *this* thead because *that* thread had a whole conversation about PIT going on--let's not start that again here with PHL, lol.  Wink

In any event, WN started PHL with 14 daily departures on 09 May 2004, which doubled to 28 daily departures in July 2004. I think it's safe to say that WN doesn't enter an airport unless it has the potential to be a gold mine--so yes, I'd say that PHL is a gold mine of sorts for WN.

Airwave  eyebrow 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 44):
Is PHL a "gold mine" for WN? They seem to expand there quite a bit. They started there with about 30 flights/day more or less as well. While I am sure they do well at PIT I seem to notice more good news about PHL.

Much larger O/D in PHL than PIT. Also better location for WN Northeast to Mid-Atlantic and vice-versa connections. Seems like WN does well in PHL, they are not known for expanding a station just for the hell of it.  Wink
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Devil505x (Reply 44):
Is PHL a "gold mine" for WN? They seem to expand there quite a bit. They started there with about 30 flights/day more or less as well. While I am sure they do well at PIT I seem to notice more good news about PHL.



Quoting Airwave (Reply 45):
Oh dear, I think you'll incur the wrath of Steeler83 for that, lol. If you take a look at the following thread, you'll see a lot of questions vis a vis WN in PHL answered.

Nah don't worry Devil505, but I have to admit that I laughed at Airwave's statement about me going off and dealing you this wrath of destruction if you will  Smile (Then when don't I laugh at Airwave's statements!!!) Anyway, what Airwave posted at the bottom really does make sense... as did vegasplanes

Quoting Airwave (Reply 45):
In any event, WN started PHL with 14 daily departures on 09 May 2004, which doubled to 28 daily departures in July 2004. I think it's safe to say that WN doesn't enter an airport unless it has the potential to be a gold mine--so yes, I'd say that PHL is a gold mine of sorts for WN.



Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 46):
Much larger O/D in PHL than PIT. Also better location for WN Northeast to Mid-Atlantic and vice-versa connections. Seems like WN does well in PHL, they are not known for expanding a station just for the hell of it.

The Northeast Corridor there is supremely ripe for O&D to warant a hub/focus city for WN as well as any other airline with a serious operation (Primarily, I am talking about from New York to Washington D.C. Boston has strong O&D, but it is not in a very strategic location for a hub). When WN started in PHL, their hub was about the same size as PIT at the time, as PIT was shrinking considerably. It had gone from 500 flights down to like 300 or 350 at the time I think, but US was also adding PHL service left and right, primarily for international traffic...

WN has a much stronger hold in BWI, another NE corridor city, than it does in PHL at this time, but someone speculated that this could change in a few years, and that does not really surprise me at all. Airtran also has a formidable presence there as well. New York is a multiple hub, with B6, AA, and DL in JFK, and a US focus city in LGA. In D.C is UA, and WN has also taken interest in some slots there too, but I am not sure if it will expand like BWI did given their close proximity to one another...

So in any event, I don't think it's just PHL, but the entire Northeast that is a O&D goald mine for WN as well as any carrier up there...

I know that I posted this question before, but is there any possibility of any additional cargo service coming, like maybe UPS or FEDEX or DHL would open up a focus city here? I don't think that O&D would matter at all in this area...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 47):
So in any event, I don't think it's just PHL, but the entire Northeast that is a O&D goald mine for WN as well as any carrier up there...

Exactly, this is what I was trying to get across in my earlier posts, that there are much larger pockets of O/D travelers than what is in PIT, hence WN is not going to grow PIT or any station that fails to attract sufficient business for growth to occur. With WN's business practises, not unlikely that WN will have a few major "focus cities" on the east coast by the time everything is said and done. Look at the left coast, SAN, LAX, and OAK all have about 100 flights or more per day, and they are all in one state, not to mention significant ops. at BUR, SNA, ONT, SJC, SAC, LAS, and PHX. The east coast has the O/D demand that WN wants, hence eventually probably see a large WN presence in PHL, along with their cirrent presence at BWI, and if they ever enter one of the main NYC airports, not ISP, I would bet they would have a large flight base there as well.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
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RE: WN In SW PA: It's Really "da PITs"

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:08 pm

What about White Plains, or is that too far away like ISP?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

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