airevents
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Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:29 am

I was just wondering why aircraft like the Privatair A319 and Boeing 737s that operate on behalf of Lufthansa or Swiss and other aircraft that size operating transatlantic flights do not use La Guardia airport? Might be more convenient for passengers than Newark and I would guess those flights do not really carry high amounts of transit passengers but just O+D passengers. Besides, La Guardia has really short ways for passengers and I would guess they have all the necessary customs installations there as well.

Good night!
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EMBQA
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:31 am

Because you can get there from EWR and JFK much easier.
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swank300
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:31 am

Because believe it or not, LGA prohibits direct flights originating over approx 1,800 miles from LGA, that is why there are no direct flights to LGA from the West Coast either.
 
redngold
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:32 am

There are a variety of restrictions on traffic to/from LaGuardia, including but not limited to flight segment length in miles, landing slots and curfew. International flights outside of Canada generally do not meet these restrictions, expecially the segment length.

Quoting Swank300 (Reply 2):
Because believe it or not, LGA prohibits direct flights originating over approx 1,800 miles from LGA,

There are a few exceptions such as Frontier's flights to/from its DEN hub.

[Edited 2006-04-20 00:35:50]
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ehho
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Airevents (Thread starter):
the necessary customs installations

Apart from the famous segment length rule, even Canadian flights that do qualify must come from airports with DHS' US Customs and Border Protection pre-clearance.. Exactly because LGA doesn't have that all.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
vv701
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:19 am

Bermuda 2 - the agreement controlling the UK-US airline travel - specifically includes a list of cities from which US airlines may fly from to the UK and a list of cities that British airlines may fly from the UK to excepting only NYC/NJ. For the NYC/NJ area both lists include JFK and EWR (the only two specific airports in the list), but neither includes LGA.

There are no restrictions on which UK cites/airports can be used apart from the limit of two nominated airlines from each country flying into LHR that current excludes the likes of BD and CO flying LHR-USA.
 
hz747300
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 4):
Apart from the famous segment length rule, even Canadian flights that do qualify must come from airports with DHS' US Customs and Border Protection pre-clearance.. Exactly because LGA doesn't have that all.

I haven't been as an adult, and I cannot remember from when I was in Ireland, but don't you clear US customs in Ireland too? Not that an all business class service could be profitable between LGA and DUB.
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TheSonntag
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:25 am

All legal restrictions aside, what about the runway length of LGA? Is that long enough for intercontinental flights? Even a BBJ or A319LR should need some runway when full, right?
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):

Heya,

To answer that question, here are some photos that will answer ver easily your question:


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Photo © Bill Hough




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Photo © Ron Peel



All of the above are much heavier than a BBJ or A319LR, so they would have no problem departing LGA.

Thanks
Mike
 
flynavy
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:34 am

No, considering LGAs facilities handle DC-10s, L1011s, and all versions of the 767 with relative ease. LGAs runways are 7000' by 150'. KLGA.


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Photo © Art Brett - Photovation Images

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flynavy
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:36 am

DogFighter2111 beat me to it. Oh well! :-p
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dtwclipper
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
considering LGAs facilities handle DC-10s, L1011s, and all versions of the 767 with relative ease. LGAs runways are 7000' by 150'. KLGA.

Yes, it is also my understanding that they went out heavily weight restricted.
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bomber996
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Flynavy (Reply 9):
All of the above are much heavier than a BBJ or A319LR, so they would have no problem departing LGA.

Yes they may be much heavier, but would they be able to takeoff with a good sized payload? you have to remember these Heavies that fly into LGA don't go nearly to even half their range. The only aircraft I could imagine making it from LGA to Europe is the 757.

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layzhon
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:24 am

BC most internationl carries won't allow there flights from Europe for instance to land on runways that are shorter then 9000 ft in the U.S.
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scutfarcus
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:31 am

I read (on justplanes.com) that Delta will begin serving LGA from LAX non-stop. How do they get around the rules? DOes a special law have to be passed? What other exceptions are there for LGA?
 
stirling
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:33 am

LaGuardia is one of the few airports that I know of to have an aircraft designed specifically for its use.

In the late 60's, AA wanted and aircraft that could fly between Chicago and LaGuardia, with a full load of 250 passengers, and no payload restrictions.

Viola' the DC-10 was born.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Because you can get there from EWR and JFK much easier.

Good answer.  Sad
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dalb777
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Scutfarcus (Reply 14):
I read (on justplanes.com) that Delta will begin serving LGA from LAX non-stop. How do they get around the rules? DOes a special law have to be passed? What other exceptions are there for LGA?

That is only a Saturday service. Apparently, the rule does not apply on Saturday.
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STT757
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:42 am

There can be no flights from LGA beyond 1,500 miles, the exception is Denver which was an existing route from LGA when the perimeter rule was established so it was Grandfathered in.

Also there are no customs facilities to handle trans-Atlantic travelers, passengers would have to be pre-screened as they are in Aruba, Bahamas, Bermuda and Canada.

And finally LGA's gain would be JFK's loss, JFK has such paltry domestic service (save Florida) of lengths 1,500 miles and shorter because if given a choice between LGA and JFK travelers will always choose LGA. If LGA is opened up to daily Trans-cons or flights to London AA, UAL and BA would pull down flights at JFK to beef up LGA.
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louA340
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Swank300 (Reply 2):
Because believe it or not, LGA prohibits direct flights originating over approx 1,800 miles from LGA, that is why there are no direct flights to LGA from the West Coast either.

Why did the airport authorities decide to do that. Wont that keep out room for more growth to the airport since it limits the destinations available?
Is it that they feel EWR and JFK already cover all those destinations and so the need is not there?
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STT757
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:02 am

If there were no restrictions on flights at LGA there would be unbearable congestion, it would be a mess.
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cedarjet
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:04 am

God, why do New Yorkers love La Guardia so much? Man, that airport is so overcrowded and delay-prone, and it's not that close to Manhattan. I think Newark is about as convenient as La Guadia, and JFK itself is on the same road out of town as LGA, it's just a little bit (like 4 miles) further.

I must admit I do like La Guardia cos it's kind of old New York, and from a flying point of view it's amazing, especially on approaches. I've been through there half a dozen times in the last few months and every single time, it's been perfect weather and everything's working perfectly and it's been a beautiful experience without exception. But I can just imagine one tiny thing happens, a hubcap falls off an MD80 and a runway is closed for ten minutes and everyone's day is completely ruined. I'd rather pay an extra $8 in a cab and fly from JFK where there's some extra capacity to allow for snow or a taxiway closure or something. I know Newark is known as "the delay capital of the world" but again, at least it's a big airport and better equipped to cope.
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777wt
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Scutfarcus (Reply 14):
I read (on justplanes.com) that Delta will begin serving LGA from LAX non-stop. How do they get around the rules? DOes a special law have to be passed? What other exceptions are there for LGA?

That's for saturdays.

US Airways goes to Aruba from LGA on saturdays. Read the fine print  Wink
 
RP TPA
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
If there were no restrictions on flights at LGA there would be unbearable congestion, it would be a mess

As opposed to the very light traffic they currently have there.
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timz
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Layzhon (Reply 13):
most internationl carries won't allow there flights from Europe for instance to land on runways that are shorter then 9000 ft in the U.S.

JFK runway 22L is 8400 ft and gets lots of European arrivals. Maybe most.

Recall that DL flies a 763 nonstop from OGG's 7000-ft runway to ATL, which is lots farther than LGA-Europe.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
LaGuardia is one of the few airports that I know of to have an aircraft designed specifically for its use.

In the late 60's, AA wanted and aircraft that could fly between Chicago and LaGuardia, with a full load of 250 passengers, and no payload restrictions.

Viola' the DC-10 was born.

True!

IIRC, Eastern's specifications to Lockheed as launch customer for the L-1011 were similar- pulling a full load from LGA to MIA. Also, UA and EA, both launch customers for the 727, wrote its performance specs around LGA (which had sub-6K Ft. runways in the early 1960s).
 
777wt
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 15):
LaGuardia is one of the few airports that I know of to have an aircraft designed specifically for its use.

On a related note, the 767 has what you call the LaGuardia bend. It's the design of the MLG to allow landings in LGA with the 767. Wider width to spread out the loads.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting LouA340 (Reply 18):
Wont that keep out room for more growth to the airport since

There is no room for growth at LGA.
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zvezda
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
If there were no restrictions on flights at LGA there would be unbearable congestion, it would be a mess.

No, landing fees could be raised. It would be better to let the market decide which particular flights should operate from LGA vs JFK. The overall balance could be kept reasonable by regulating landing fees.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
And finally LGA's gain would be JFK's loss, JFK has such paltry domestic service (save Florida) of lengths 1,500 miles and shorter because if given a choice between LGA and JFK travelers will always choose LGA. If LGA is opened up to daily Trans-cons or flights to London AA, UAL and BA would pull down flights at JFK to beef up LGA.

Definitely not - whenever I fly into NYC, I choose JFK, then EWR and then LGA. The AirTrain makes it so much easier to get RR/subway into the city. LGA is great for those who live in the area - and they would choose LGA first. However, the public transportation to LGA is poor for those without knowing someone in the area to pick them up.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:29 pm

Do I remember correctly when saying that AC could not operate to LGA from some Canadian cities because these cities do not have US immigration/customs pre-clearance? Are there customs and immigration at LGA? If not, obviously it's a no-no for European flights...
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tjwgrr
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:35 pm

LGA has had European flights. You folks are forgetting about the history of the Marine Terminal at LGA.

The original LGA terminal building, once called the Overseas Terminal and later named the Marine Air Terminal, was built close to the bay to accommodate flying boats. Pan Am flew flying boat Clippers from LGA's Marine Terminal to Europe. The first was to Lisbon Portugal in 1940.
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don81603
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:44 pm

I heard some place (can't remember where, sorry) that the FAA had decided some years ago that JFK would be designated as the international airport, and LGA would be for domestic flights. In theory, this makes sense, keeping international and transit pax in one airport, and domestic east coast connecting pax in another.
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wjcandee
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 30):
LGA has had European flights. You folks are forgetting about the history of the Marine Terminal at LGA

Right. There was a time when LGA was the largest and busiest international airport in the world, before JFK was built. Pan Am's international service was extensive from the Marine Air Terminal.
 
b777a340fan
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:12 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 20):
God, why do New Yorkers love La Guardia so much? Man, that airport is so overcrowded and delay-prone, and it's not that close to Manhattan. I think Newark is about as convenient as La Guadia, and JFK itself is on the same road out of town as LGA, it's just a little bit (like 4 miles) further.

Mainly because of convenience. It is the closest airport to Manhattan. I don't think LGA is anymore prone to delays than JFK or EWR. EWR is already out of question because it is so far. JFK, although close to LGA, is still too far. 4 miles in NYC traffic takes literally an extra 30 mins.  Yeah sure

As far LGA being able to handle international flights....wasn't the airport designated as an airport for domestic flights only? It doesn't have Customs that all passengers arriving from international cities have to go through. It's like DCA, there are no international flights there. Passengers must go through IAD or BWI.
 
2travel2know
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:32 pm

Isn't it true that CO has a LGA-AUA-LGA Sunday Only or Saturday Only flight?
Bear in mind that both AUA and DUB do have U.S. Point of Entry facilities; so then as long as the origin airport has a U.S. Point of Entry facility (like DUB) and the U.S. destination airport has U.S. Customs (LGA does have a very small one) a Sunday Only or Saturday Only (1500mi limit doesn't apply those days) DUB-LGA-DUB could be possible, all depending on which kind of aircraft.
The questions are:
Would a Saturday only or Sunday only LGA-DUB-LGA be profitable?
Would a B757 be the largest aircraft which could be used for that route?
Would CO be interested (since they're flying B757 to Eire and already have LGA "international" service)?
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ANITIX87
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 20):
Man, that airport is so overcrowded and delay-prone, and it's not that close to Manhattan.

I agree. I hate flying out of LGA. The first time (to DTW) we were delayed 3 hrs. because of congestion.

November of 2004 my HS senior class went to Disney World for 6 days. My flight was w/ AA out of LGA, and the other group flew SONG out of JFK. Our flight was supposed to leave 15 minutes before theirs, but they got to MCO before we even boarded, because AA had their computers shut down since it was Thursday morning at like 7AM and then there was a problem getting them up and running. Also, the flight wasn't prepped in time.

On the way back it was the same story. The LGA computers were down so the flight got to MCO to take us back three hours late. And then it took them forever to do the turn-around for some reason. The other flight had landed in JFK and driven the 2 hours back to school before we even boarded. Our 6:00PM departure became a 11:30 departure and we got back home at 4:30 AM and had to be in school at 7:30 later that morning! UGH!

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A342
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:24 am

To answer the runway length question, one has to consider that a A343 can make it from SXM to CDG nonstop. That´s from a 7700 feet/2350 m runway.

The flights from LGA to Europe would be quite a bit shorter, so I guess an A343 could make LGA- Western Europe nonstop.
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ScottB
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 20):
God, why do New Yorkers love La Guardia so much? Man, that airport is so overcrowded and delay-prone, and it's not that close to Manhattan. I think Newark is about as convenient as La Guadia, and JFK itself is on the same road out of town as LGA, it's just a little bit (like 4 miles) further.

If you've ever tried to drive the extra eleven miles down the Grand Central Parkway/Van Wyck Expressway (it might be an "express"way at 3 AM) in typical NYC traffic, you'd understand why New Yorkers prefer LGA. And during the peak afternoon/evening hours at JFK, it is just as congested as LGA, if not even more so.

Quoting Layzhon (Reply 13):
BC most internationl carries won't allow there flights from Europe for instance to land on runways that are shorter then 9000 ft in the U.S.

I've seen international heavies landing on BOS's runway 27 which is a mere 7000 feet.
 
bomber996
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
The flights from LGA to Europe would be quite a bit shorter, so I guess an A343 could make LGA- Western Europe nonstop.

Yes, this is true, but some of the runway at LGA is build on stilts over the water. This is something that the flights at SXM don't have to deal with, even though they do have that turn due to the mountain. IIRC some of the US Airways A321's are weight limited on takeoff and landings so they don't dent or put huge pot holes in the runways at LGA.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 38):
've seen international heavies landing on BOS's runway 27 which is a mere 7000 feet.

BOS also has a runway that is over 9000 ft. I think what he meant was that they dont allow aircraft to land at airports that have at least one runway over 9000 ft.


Peace   

[Edited 2006-04-20 17:42:12]
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beechnut
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 8):
All of the above are much heavier than a BBJ or A319LR, so they would have no problem departing LGA.

Well let's see. A BBJ taking off for Europe would be near MGTOW. LGA has 7000' runways. Well according to Boeing's data (http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/aircompat/acaps/737sec3.pdf), a BBJ on a standard day, dry runway, at MGTOW requires approx. 8000 ft of runway. Wet runways must be longer.

A 767-300ER on the other hand, at 320,000 lbs take-off weight (MGTOW is just under 420,000 lbs), requires less than 6000 ft. So a 767 on a short domestic leg could get out. A BBJ at MGTOW could not.

Why is that? Because the BBJ will be operating at its worse possible power-to-weight ratio, whereas the 767 will be light, and therefore have a much more favourable power-to-weight ratio. On the other hand, a full 767-300ER requires 11,000 ft.

It amazes me sometimes how simplistic some folks are on this forum (not to point fingers, several have made the assumption that because a DC10 or 767 can depart LGA that a BBJ could, but neglect to consider the aircraft 's weight and mission profile).

Beech.
 
soylentgreen
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 20):
God, why do New Yorkers love La Guardia so much? Man, that airport is so overcrowded and delay-prone, and it's not that close to Manhattan. I think Newark is about as convenient as La Guadia, and JFK itself is on the same road out of town as LGA, it's just a little bit (like 4 miles) further.

Laguardia is about 7 miles from midtwon Manhattan, versus 17 miles for JFK. That extra 10 miles can be an extra hour during rush hour, 30 minutes otherwise. Also, cab fare to Laguardia is half that to JFK. Newark International is about 20 miles from Midtown but cab fare is much higher due to Newark not being in New York (cabs usually charge twice the meter due to need to return to home base).
 
planetime
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 6):
I haven't been as an adult, and I cannot remember from when I was in Ireland, but don't you clear US customs in Ireland too? Not that an all business class service could be profitable between LGA and DUB.

There is US preclearence in Ireland as is in Canada.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 20):
I must admit I do like La Guardia cos it's kind of old New York, and from a flying point of view it's amazing, especially on approaches.

The approaches to LGA specially when parallel to Manhattan is amazing really. With the skyline and bridges all lit up at night.......wow nothing like it really. Other than that I always prefer JFK when goin to NY, specially the new Term 4 is great! besides terminal of SQ also ...  Wink
 
idlewild
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:47 am

How about Biz Jets? They're not distance restricted are they? Barring the Belgian A-310 because of it's diplomatic status, and excluding weight restrictions could Donald Trump or that Russian guy who owns the B-767 fly in and out of LGA to and from Europe?
 
timz
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting BeechNut (Reply 39):
A BBJ taking off for Europe would be near MGTOW. LGA has 7000' runways.

I can't seem to find payload-range for the BBJ on Boeing's site, but I suspect it would be well below MTOW and 7000 ft would suffice.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Swank300 (Reply 2):
Because believe it or not, LGA prohibits direct flights originating over approx 1,800 miles from LGA, that is why there are no direct flights to LGA from the West Coast either.

Almost correct. The distance restriction is 1500 miles. Occasionally exemptions are granted to this rule. Denver has a permanent exemption. Exemptions are also issued from time to time for Los Angeles LAX.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
planetime
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 44):
The distance restriction is 1500 miles.

any reason for this restriction?
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 45):
any reason for this restriction?

Yes. It is a method of relieving congestion at LGA by forcing flights to EWR and JFK.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ScottB
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RE: Why No Flights Europe To La Guardia?

Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 41):
There is US preclearence in Ireland as is in Canada.

The U.S. preclearance in Ireland is only for immigration, not for Customs. From Canada, you clear both at the Canadian airport (if said airport has the preclearance facilities).

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 38):
IIRC some of the US Airways A321's are weight limited on takeoff and landings so they don't dent or put huge pot holes in the runways at LGA.

That has more to do with the landing gear design than the actual weight of the aircraft; an empty 767-400 (which Delta has operated into LGA) outweighs an A321 even at MTOW.

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