Junction
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CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:53 pm

I have not seen the ads yet, but I saw this in an article today. This is a quote from an e-mail bulletin that I can't link to from this page. I was wondering when CO would start to complain about DL growing in New York.


"CO launched a new advertisement in New York City to set the record straight on a recent claim by Delta Air Lines (DL) regarding its trans-Atlantic service. The DL ads claim “Most flights to Europe,” but near-microscopic type at the bottom of each ad discloses that service is from the U.S. – not necessarily from New York – and it may be operated by Air France or another alliance partner.

By contrast, CO’s ad reads, “Only one airline flies nonstop to the most cities in Europe from the New York Area. And it ain’t Delta.” There is no ambiguity and there are no hard-to-read disclaimers in CO’s message.

This summer, DL will fly to 18 destinations in Europe, while CO will serve 26 European cities from the New York area."
 
boeingguy1
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:01 am

Time to kick DL out of skyteam- Mighty CO has been upset! :0
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yellowtail
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:03 am

Lets get ready to rumble!
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worldtraveler
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:08 am

DL can state that you won't ever be on a narrowbody flight across the Atlantic.

These spats are usually comical but in the end both airlines get consumer attention. There's a funny radio version about 2 competitors in a retail industry running in my area and I WANTED to sit in the car to let it finish before getting out this a.m. That doesn't happen too often.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:14 am

Ahhh... and the gloves come off!

CO and DL have both been very aggresive in NYC ads for years:

Subways, taxis, buses, billboards

CO has been cute:

"Yesterday you couldn't fly nonstop to Bristol . . . what a difference a day makes'

And so has Delta:

"Because saying 'I bought this in Europe' never gets old'

But CO has gotten nasty since last summer and actually names there competitors by name.

"More flights to South America that Northwest and Delta combined."

I was a little taken aback when they started doing that. It's generally an unspoken rule that you refer to your competitor, but never actually name them.


As for the new war . . . they are both playing deception games.

DL is the largest carrier across the Atlantic... when you combine ATL/JFK/CVG hub flights together.

CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.




It's funny how Continental should call Delta on this one though.

You would think that an airline that has deceived people for 15 years with "New York/Newark" or "Continental has hubs in Cleveland, Houston, NEW YORK, and Guam" or "Nonstop to New York" would keep their mouths shut.

Truth:

CO flies to 3 nonstop destinations out of New York: IAH, CLE, and AUA.

No hub in New York. And for those that didn't know, it's not New York/Newark, it's New Jersey/Newark.

CO is not one to cast stones in their advertising glass house.

PJ
 
boeingguy1
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
No hub in New York. And for those that didn't know, it's not New York/Newark, it's New Jersey/Newark.

CO is not one to cast stones in their advertising glass house.

While this might be true, EWR is just as conveinent as JFK for INTL Departures and it is easier to get to the City, so therefore many people consider EWR as one of the "3" NY Airports.
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worldtraveler
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:31 am

no one's doubting it's just about as convenient as JFK but IT'S NOT IN NY.

I sort of doubt that DL or CO will get into that fight because it doesn't mean much except to those that are fiercely loyal to NY over NJ. But I may be wrong.... it would make a nice 2nd verse to this fight song.
 
star_world
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):


no one's doubting it's just about as convenient as JFK but IT'S NOT IN NY.

Well from an IATA point of view, it is  Smile The "NYC" city code includes EWR...
 
ord
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
no one's doubting it's just about as convenient as JFK but IT'S NOT IN NY.

I agree with you, but the original post said CO's ad reads “Only one airline flies nonstop to the most cities in Europe from the New York Area. And it ain’t Delta.”

It says New York Area, not New York. And Newark is a New York-area airport.
 
dartland
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:40 am

The spat is great! Good for NY travelers to have more options. Good for all travelers to have more connecting options in NY.

Also -- I agree they will both be winners here. The PR that DL gets from CO is good for them, as it makes them known as the new big player in NY! CO has been heavily advertising in NYC for years, so it won't be bad for them either.

As for who will get more passengers? Dude, it's NY metro, the largest O&D market in the world. They can both win -- that's the beauty of it!

Meanwhile, we can all sit back and watch the fireworks...

PS: Have you seen the big mural DL painted on the wall of a building near Penn Station/MSG? I think its on the NE corner of W 34th and 8th Ave, facing south. It's called "New York to the world" and it's a big DL ad. The funny thing is it's been there for years, even though CO and AA have always dominated the "NY to the world" scene. DL is FINALLY making it relevant!!!
 
Junction
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

I can see your point, but it's kind of an old argument. There are so many cities that have their airport out of the destination city limits, and many even in different states, such as IAD (in Virginia) for Washington D.C., and CVG (in Kentucky) for Cincinnati, Ohio. Even Southwest calls ONT the "Palms Springs area”. There is no question that EWR serves as an airport for NYC.
 
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STT757
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

Then the only NFL franchise in New York is the Buffalo Bills.
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airzim
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

Nor did they claim it was. You act like a three year old in these New York vs New Jersey arguments. Who cares. The reality is Newark Airport is in the New York Metro region. If Newark was in Westchester rather than across the river would you get so bent out of shape!
 
dartland
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 12):
If Newark was in Westchester rather than across the river would you get so bent out of shape!

If Newark was in Westchester, it would have 4 gates, 20 flights per day, and its one runway would have a zig zag approach pattern to avoid the NIMBYs.

(sorry, off topic, but since I was born and raised in Westchester, I couldn't resist...)

Oh, and no, they wouldn't get bent out of shape because Westchester is in the state of New York (just like I consider myself to be a New Yorker, even though my city friend somestimes complain that I'm not from the city, which I readily admit to, but remind them that I still carried a NY drivers license and that I could commute to midtown Manhattan faster than most of them who lived in Queens).

Anyways, the point here is that it is semantics. DL can make fun of CO that their airport is in NJ, but it is definitely a NYC-area airport. We all know it is pretty convenient to Manhattan, blah blah blah. It is a fun point in an advertising campaign, but really holds no water.
 
767-332ER
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
Then the only NFL franchise in New York is the Buffalo Bills.

Point taken, but the name of the Giants is still "New York Giants."

Newark's official name is "New Jersey Newark Liberty." Maybe they should rename the airport "New York Newark Liberty" for CO's sake.
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OA412
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Junction (Thread starter):
This summer, DL will fly to 18 destinations in Europe, while CO will serve 26 European cities from the New York area.

Actually, with this summer's expansion, DL will also fly to 26 destinations in Europe and to 27 transatlantic destinations in all when you take TLV into account.
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UAL#1fan
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:18 am

As a student in New York, I have seen quite a bit of the advertising. Continental's is generally on phone booths while Delta is on taxicabs. CO has a pretty good airport in the area. Even though technically EWR is in the state of New Jersey, it is, if you live in Manhattan, more convenient than JFK. Unless you live in Queens or Brooklyn, you have to fork over a hefty cab fee or face a long (and I mean long) subway ride to transfer to the AirTrain to get you to Kennedy. By contrast, Continental operates a ticketing counter at Penn Station, and offers (through Amtrak) fast, direct rail service from Penn Station in midtown Manhattan to EWR.

So is there an advertising duel like this going on in Chicago between United and American?
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airzim
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 13):
If Newark was in Westchester, it would have 4 gates, 20 flights per day, and its one runway would have a zig zag approach pattern to avoid the NIMBYs.

Of course there's no way in hell there would ever be an airport in Westchester but the point is the New York bias over state boundaries argument is silly. Geographically it really doesn't matter. All three airports serve the metro region whether in New York City limits or not.

Plus they're all controlled by the PANY/NJ anyway.

For me personally, I find LGA much more convenient to Manhattan than Newark by a mile (or 12). But if I'm going on a long haul to Europe or Asia going to Newark or JFK makes absolutely no difference. Except that EWR has the Airtrain which is infinitely more reliable than the Van Wyck.
 
incitatus
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

Your can fight this over all you want but the state jurisdiction over Newark is irrelevant in this case. Nobody in Manhattan will choose to fly out of JFK because EWR is not in New York state.

Both Newark and JFK are similarly conveniente to Manhattan, which is the core of the metro area. And besides, I hate to break the news to you but for most people in Manhattan JFK "is not" in New York. It's somewhere out there beyond a bridge or tunnel.
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boeingguy1
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 14):
Newark's official name is "New Jersey Newark Liberty."

What? No its not... its simply Newark Liberty International Airport... just as LaGuardia's is LaGuardia... same as JFK is John F. Kennedy International... no sate names whatsoever.
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antoniemey
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
no one's doubting it's just about as convenient as JFK but IT'S NOT IN NY.



Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
Then the only NFL franchise in New York is the Buffalo Bills.

aw, nuts, you beat me to it.  Smile But yeah, both the "New York" Jets and "New York" Giants are in New Jersey.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
Junction
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
Actually, with this summer's expansion, DL will also fly to 26 destinations in Europe and to 27 transatlantic destinations in all when you take TLV into account.

I think CO is comparing service specifically from NYC with the 18 (DL) vs. 26 (CO) destinations comment.
 
rwsea
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Junction (Thread starter):
This summer, DL will fly to 18 destinations in Europe, while CO will serve 26 European cities from the New York area."

By the end of the year, DL will serve 4 more transatlantic destinations than CO (don't forget that DKR and JNB are coming online). True that it's split between ATL and JFK, but still, DL has more destinations and is the larger carrier. Also, they fly widebodies instead of teeny weeny 757s. And they rarely need fuel stops on the way back.

I think CO is starting to feel threatened that DL is reasserting her European and Transatlantic dominance.
 
TWFirst
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

Your "point" could not be more juvenile or irrelevant.

The state border is an imaginary geopolitical line.

The reality is Liberty International Airport serves the entire New York Metropolitan Area (yes, it's most convenient to those in the western part of the metro, just as JFK is most convenient to those in the eastern part of the metro), and is owned and operated by the same entity that owns and operates the other two major New York Metropolitan airports. Continental is completely accurate in marketing its hub as serving New York because it does serve New York. People fly into the airport because they are travelling to New York. It is just as close to Manhattan as JFK.

Signed,
A New Yorker.
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klwright69
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 23):
Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
CO is the largest carrier across the Atlantic from Newark . . . but again, this is not New York. Never has been, never will be. New York City's int'l airport is JFK. And CO has zippo flights from NY to Europe.

Your "point" could not be more juvenile or irrelevant.

The state border is an imaginary geopolitical line.

Thank you.... This argument is getting so silly. It's like saying there are no international flights to Washington D.C., you first have to fly to Virginia...Give us all a break and skip this nonsense.
 
777gk
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:53 am

I personally feel this argument is retarded, anyone who makes claims that Newark should not be considered New York in the same vein as JFK and LGA are hopelessly out of touch with reality. If EWR was not a viable option for NY travel, we probably would not have the same operation there. New Jersey is a huge market in its own right, but New York provides serious worldwide demand.

As for football, the only thing not New York about the Jets is where they play their home games. All of their team offices and practice facilities are in Hempstead, Long Island, which is in the state of NY. When the new stadium goes up in '09 or so, the Jets will move the whole caboodle across the river to New Jersey, where the Giants have been since 1976.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Airzim:

At JFK there is now there own version of the Air Train however, it is an automated light rail. Took it Wednesday for fun wow what a fast trip.

As for the New York New Jersey argument remember in straight line distance EWR is the closest airport from downtown New York than any other airport.
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worldtraveler
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 22):
I think CO is starting to feel threatened that DL is reasserting her European and Transatlantic dominance.

There is the heart of the argument.

Let's not forget that DL hired two former network execs from CO (one via AZ) and CO is charging that DL "stole" some of CO's network plans, such as to serve TXL (which DL served from JFK previously).

Also, CO is peeved that DL got into Africa before CO did. CO's stated desire to acquire widebody aircraft on short notice is solely to prevent DL from taking away CO's dominance of the NYC int'l market.

This is fun to watch... the real winners are NYC passengers, airports, businesses, and spotters. And NYC is being elevated to its rightful position as a preeminent gateway to the world.

BTW... I hear DL's new transatlantic routes from JFK are booking very well.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:18 am

Technically speaking, if you use the US Government's definition of the New York Metropolitan Statistical Area, then EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, and ISP can all be considered New York-area airports.
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letsgetwet
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 22):
By the end of the year, DL will serve 4 more transatlantic destinations than CO (don't forget that DKR and JNB are coming online). True that it's split between ATL and JFK, but still, DL has more destinations and is the larger carrier. Also, they fly widebodies instead of teeny weeny 757s. And they rarely need fuel stops on the way back.

I think CO is starting to feel threatened that DL is reasserting her European and Transatlantic dominance.

Since when is DKR and JNB in Europe? And CO' s statement about serving more destinations in Europe from the NYC area will still be correct at the end of this year. DL will never have a bigger presence in NYC than CO.

[Edited 2006-04-22 03:35:06]
 
Delta4eva
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 29):
DL will never have a bigger presence in NYC than CO

If you combine LGA, JFK, and EWR, DL comes pretty close. Granted, JFK might never become as big of a hub for DL as EWR is for CO, but altogether in NYC, DL is huge.

[Edited 2006-04-22 04:54:23]
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corey07850
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):

It's funny how Continental should call Delta on this one though.

You would think that an airline that has deceived people for 15 years with "New York/Newark" or "Continental has hubs in Cleveland, Houston, NEW YORK, and Guam" or "Nonstop to New York" would keep their mouths shut.

Well if you want to go that route....

One of DL's hubs, CVG, is located in..... Kentucky!! Can you believe they advertise flights to Cincinatti when they actually have 0 flights to Cincinatti? The nerve of them  Smile

BTW CVG is 12 miles from Downtown Cincy, and EWR is like 8 miles from Manhattan... The argument is moot
 
rwsea
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 29):
Since when is DKR and JNB in Europe? And CO' s statement about serving more destinations in Europe from the NYC area will still be correct at the end of this year. DL will never have a bigger presence in NYC than CO.

Please tell me where I said "Europe". Re-read my post, and you'll see that I said "Transatlantic".

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
BTW... I hear DL's new transatlantic routes from JFK are booking very well.

That is good news to hear. I would hope to see more destinations in the future (St. Petersburg, Warsaw, and Cairo all come to mind). I think DL's JFK hub will do well, but they need to continue to connect dots domestically. I would like to see DEN, PHX, and PDX all come back. And when DL gets back on their feet, they need to do something about that terminal.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
Also, CO is peeved that DL got into Africa before CO did. CO's stated desire to acquire widebody aircraft on short notice is solely to prevent DL from taking away CO's dominance of the NYC int'l market.

Pretty much. I think many of the airlines are peeved. DL is really the only US carrier with the capacity to expand internationally. CO and the others feel left out because they can't be included in the big international expansion party. The only other carrier that might be able to expand a bit would be UA, if they started converting some of the domestic 763/777 to international ops. Oh, and I guess CO could expand a bit more too. I can see it now, 8x daily EWR-LGW with 752s.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:57 pm

[
Please tell me where I said "Europe". Re-read my post, and you'll see that I said "Transatlantic". [/quote]

This thread is not about Trans-Atlantic routes. It's about destinations in Europe and the NYC market.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
There is the heart of the argument.

Let's not forget that DL hired two former network execs from CO (one via AZ) and CO is charging that DL "stole" some of CO's network plans, such as to serve TXL (which DL served from JFK previously).

Also, CO is peeved that DL got into Africa before CO did. CO's stated desire to acquire widebody aircraft on short notice is solely to prevent DL from taking away CO's dominance of the NYC int'l market.

Again you continue to spout nonsense. Please show me anywhere at anytime publically or otherwise that CO ever said they were "peeved" at Delta for going into Africa. You can't because you made it up, yet again. CO is not in a race with Delta to see who can lose more money in Europe.

The heart of the argument is, DL needs to do something with their domestic widebody fleet. They can't continue to fly them around the US selling crap fares. Re-config and send them to Europe. This has nothing to do with the former CO executives, we're not talking rocket sciense here.

This is not a strategy its desperation. Throw the planes at Europe and Sao Paulo and see what sticks. It's not like losing another $100million is going to make that big a difference.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:17 pm

actually, CO executives have indeed said they have considered suing DL. It's not made up. Just google Continental Airlines to Nigeria and see how many articles you come up with in their saga to try and serve Nigeria - which they wanted to use to go onto S. Africa. DL chose Senegal as its stopping off point with the help of Andrew Young and is now booking Christmas traffic to S. Africa.

RwSea is dead on. No one expected DL to be in a position to become a much stronger int'l player and CO is the most threatened by it because NYC is at stake. And yes, when JFK and LGA are combined, DL has a strong and well-established position in NYC - a very good platform for growing int'l routes.

UA will not try to compete substantially is the contest although it is possible they could add a couple routes but they will have to fight for flow traffic that is well served over other gateways - and DL already serves many European destinations that UA could serve from both JFK and ATL.

AA is certainly threated as well but they have been more of a niche player to Europe but if DL aggressively grows S. America from NYC, AA could slip since CO already serves many destinations from NYC that AA does not.

Analysts are already estimating that DL is doing very well with its network restructuring and their new int'l routes are performing well. It's not about desperation, AirZim, it's that DL is using their assets to their full potential and doing so in ways that make money. Remember that CO did not originally intend to fly the 757s to Europe but they realized they could and started sending them there. There is nothing different about CO sending its 757s to Europe than DL sending its 764s there now - just that the 764 is a much more capable airplane. At the time both were ordered, they supported business plans that did make money for their intended use. Remember that DL was one of the most profitable airlines in the world in the late 90s using dozens of widebody aircraft on the domestic system. That model no longer works so DL is profitably redeploying those aircraft where they make sense.

I couldn't be more pleased to see DL sending the 764s to Europe. They are a great airplane and I suspect DL will wish they had more. And they will be reconfigured to be competitive with the best airplanes offered by any other airline.

[Edited 2006-04-22 16:23:48]
 
commavia
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
if DL aggressively grows S. America from NYC, AA could slip since CO already serves many destinations from NYC that AA does not.

DL threatening AA to Latin America because of JFK-GRU is like AA threatening NW to Asia because of ORD-PVG. It's just completely unrealistic. AA has such a massive amount of lift between the New York metro area and more Latin America -- far more than CO and far, far more than DL -- that DL's little toe-in-the-water move to fly JFK-GRU is hardly to sizeable a threat. Most regard DL's move there as nothing more than a move to hold on to valuable Brazil rights, and many don't expect it to last long.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 31):
Well if you want to go that route....

One of DL's hubs, CVG, is located in..... Kentucky!! Can you believe they advertise flights to Cincinatti when they actually have 0 flights to Cincinatti? The nerve of them Smile

BTW CVG is 12 miles from Downtown Cincy, and EWR is like 8 miles from Manhattan... The argument is moot

Thank you for saying this.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
AA is certainly threated as well but they have been more of a niche player to Europe but if DL aggressively grows S. America from NYC, AA could slip since CO already serves many destinations from NYC that AA does not.

Doubtful. AA does just fine NYC-Europe and the only one slipping NYC-South America will most likely be DL.
 
ewr756
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:18 am

CO feels threatened by DL because they know they are vulnerable.
The 757 was never meant to be a long-range trans-Atlantic airplane. Even with the installation of blended winglets, there is not enough fuel capacity (hence numerous fuel stops last winter TXL-EWR, ARN-EWR, OSL-EWR, etc).
Often CO crews have had to block lavatories on the 757 because they filled up before reaching destination.
In some markets (ARN, OSL), liquor stock has been exhausted during the flight because there is not enough storage area.
The narrow-body "atmosphere" is claustophobic, especially on full flights where there is no place to stand up and stretch.
You can get away with these things if you're the only game in town. As soon as someone else comes along and offers the comfort and non-stop reliability of a widebody in the same market, bye-bye CO.
IMHO, if CO wants to remain the premier trans-Atlantic carrier from the NYC area, they had better upgrade to larger aircraft.
There are no secrets in aviation.
 
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STT757
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting 777gk (Reply 25):
As for football, the only thing not New York about the Jets is where they play their home games. All of their team offices and practice facilities are in Hempstead, Long Island, which is in the state of NY. When the new stadium goes up in '09 or so, the Jets will move the whole caboodle across the river to New Jersey, where the Giants have been since 1976.

The Jets are moving their Headquarters and Practice facilities to Floram Park New Jersey, the State of New Jersey will now be able to receive a windfall from being able to tax all those high salaries.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 30):
If you combine LGA, JFK, and EWR, DL comes pretty close. Granted, JFK might never become as big of a hub for DL as EWR is for CO, but altogether in NYC, DL is huge.

It's not that close, when you combine EWR, JFK and LGA the biggest carriers are:

1.) CO 18,265,133
2.) AA 15,112,508
3.) DL + Shuttle and Song combined 12,144,371
4.) Jetblue 11,260,532
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:49 am

This may be one of the dumbest threads I've ever read on a.net. And that's saying something!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
csavel
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 5):
EWR is just as conveinent as JFK for INTL Departures and it is easier to get to the City,



Quoting UAL#1fan (Reply 16):
Even though technically EWR is in the state of New Jersey, it is, if you live in Manhattan, more convenient than JFK

These assertions depend on what part of the city you are talking about, Downtown Manhattan, yes, midtown, unless you are right by the Linclon tunnel, not really. East side, definitely not.

I work near the UN, and JFK is DEFINITELY more convenient for me. Newark is a pain to get to . I live in Washington Heights, and LGA is most convenient with the M60 bus, but In'tl EWR and JFK are equiv. THat EWR is always most convenient for Manhattan is an urban myth.

I think native New Yorkers tend to prefer JFK and LGA no matter where in Manhattan they go from because New Jersey evokes (UNFAIRLY I might add) certain negative stereotypes. We New Yorkers are big snobs  Wink

Business travellers and visitors couldn't care less.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
captaink
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:06 am

I appreciate that DL and CO are competing carriers, from the NYC area. But what i don't understand, is that they are both members of SkyTeam. I didn't know that such fierce competition existed between carriers that are in an alliance together. What am I missing?
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CRGsFuture
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:06 am

No, I think certain stereotypes happen for EWR, but people must remember that EWR is more convenient with the Subway to the NJ Transit then to the Air Train. Yes we all know that if you get the right train to Jamaica it is quicker but the same can be said about the EWR Station.

I live on LI and if CO offers a better price to the international destination I want (as I am a True Blue member and loyal B6 customer) then I will pay up the rather pricey sums to get to EWR.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting Klwright69 (Reply 24):
This argument is getting so silly

I agree.

It's like two 14 yr old boys arguing who can pee the longest stream......

I know very little about corporate marketing but IMO knocking your competitor is usually a sign of not being able to come up with anymore good ideas to promote your product.

Want to know how I think DL, CO or any US carrier would set them apart from their competitors??? Try the following slogan; "with us you get free booze in economy".  Big grin
A330 man.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
actually, CO executives have indeed said they have considered suing DL. It's not made up. Just google Continental Airlines to Nigeria and see how many articles you come up with in their saga to try and serve Nigeria - which they wanted to use to go onto S. Africa. DL chose Senegal as its stopping off point with the help of Andrew Young and is now booking Christmas traffic to S. Africa.

I don't care how many ways you want to spin your baloney but CO was in a dispute with Nigeria over serving Lagos. It has nothing to do with Delta and CO serving JNB afterward, again wrong. The flights were going to continue onto Accra or vice versa I can't remember.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
Analysts are already estimating that DL is doing very well with its network restructuring and their new int'l routes are performing well. It's not about desperation, AirZim, it's that DL is using their assets to their full potential and doing so in ways that make money.

You can keep believing your crap but it doesn't make it so. The analysts reports have not been endorsing of DL. They haven't even filed a reorganization plan. While I'll agree that DL is redeploying assets to potentially drive more revenue not necessarily for profit. It's funny how bankruptcy pushes you into different directions. All I'm saying is DL is shoving capacity internationally to drive revenue in the door. They have nothing to lose, losing as much money as they do. By the way when do you expect them to emerge? I'd love to hear this.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting Airzim (Reply 45):
You can keep believing your crap but it doesn't make it so. The analysts reports have not been endorsing of DL. They haven't even filed a reorganization plan. While I'll agree that DL is redeploying assets to potentially drive more revenue not necessarily for profit. It's funny how bankruptcy pushes you into different directions. All I'm saying is DL is shoving capacity internationally to drive revenue in the door. They have nothing to lose, losing as much money as they do. By the way when do you expect them to emerge? I'd love to hear this.

I agree. Analyst reports have not been endorsing DL at all, except maybe the ones on DL's payroll. If you actually read the reports, you'll see that analysts are favoring CO, AA, AS, WN and to an extent, UA at this moment. DL had to rely on bankruptcy protection to enable them to redeploy their assets and implement their radical and questionable expansion plan - something that they couldn't have done outside bankruptcy.
 
exFATboy
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting UAL#1fan (Reply 16):
Unless you live in Queens or Brooklyn, you have to fork over a hefty cab fee or face a long (and I mean long) subway ride to transfer to the AirTrain to get you to Kennedy



Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 43):
No, I think certain stereotypes happen for EWR, but people must remember that EWR is more convenient with the Subway to the NJ Transit then to the Air Train. Yes we all know that if you get the right train to Jamaica it is quicker but the same can be said about the EWR Station.

Ah, but there's this little thing called the Long Island Rail Road. LIRR leaves Penn Station, just like NJ Transit. LIRR/AirTrain to JFK takes about the same time as NJT/monorail to EWR, costs virtually the same.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 41):
I work near the UN, and JFK is DEFINITELY more convenient for me. Newark is a pain to get to . I live in Washington Heights, and LGA is most convenient with the M60 bus, but In'tl EWR and JFK are equiv.

From your home, the M60 works, but south of 59th St, the LIRR/AirTrain to JFK or NJT/mono option to EWR are both going to be just as convenient. Have to admit the M60 option would be cheapest, though - $2 to LGA is the best airport deal around.

This fight between CO and DL just reinforces my belief that having CO, DL, and NW in SkyTeam just isn't going to work in the long run - they're just going to step on each other's toes too much, especially CO vs DL.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:14 pm

Lest anyone forget CO was in bankruptcy TWICE. As has been UAL and US.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
atmx2000
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RE: CO & DL Fight Over NYC In Advertising

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 42):
I appreciate that DL and CO are competing carriers, from the NYC area. But what i don't understand, is that they are both members of SkyTeam. I didn't know that such fierce competition existed between carriers that are in an alliance together. What am I missing?

What do you expect? This is the US where airlines don't have clearly marked home territories that result from being from different nation's airlines. These are still separate companies with different shareholder owners and different management and employees that compete in the same markets.

IMHO, CO fits least well in SkyTeam in comparison to NW and DL, especially when you consider what NW's and DL's principle European partners merged. CO has more operational overlap with DL and NW respectively than DL and NW have with each other, particularly in NYC and the Midwest. I wouldn't be surprised to see an alliance shake up occur as a result of this. Maybe even a CO/UA merger will come about if intra SkyTeam relations become more dicey. I think Star could benefit from a strong New York major, and I think CO could potentially utilize some of UA's widebodies better than UA can.
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