N839MH
Posts: 298
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 4:05 pm

Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:43 pm

Report: Governing board's 12-1 vote sends package to 6,000 rank-and-file for final approval.
April 22, 2006: 12:33 AM EDT


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Leaders of the union representing Delta Air Lines' pilots have overwhelmingly endorsed a tentative concessions deal aimed at getting the carrier out of bankruptcy, the Wall Street Journal reported late Friday.

The paper, quoting an Air Line Pilots Association message to its members, said the 13-member governing board voted 12-1 to send the accord to its 6,000 members for a final vote, which is slated to be completed by May 31.

The $280 million-$290 million concession package, agreed to a week earlier, includes a 14 percent pay cut, the Journal said. It also gives the union a claim in the bankruptcy proceedings worth about $2.1 billion and a $650 million note should Delta, as expected, terminate its pension plan with the pilots, the paper said.

The agreement avoided a ruling from a three-judge arbitration panel that could have agreed with Delta's request to reject the existing union contract that would have imposed terms on the pilots. That would probably have led to a strike that could have permanently shut the airline
Solodude!
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6683
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:36 pm

Another hurdle crossed. I imagine DL took a large revenue hit in the 1st quarter.
Love Trumps Hate
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
imagine DL took a large revenue hit in the 1st quarter.

And with oil at $75 a bbl and climbing, the losses will increase. Many pundits saying $5.00 a gallon by mid-summer. Uggh. IMO, the pilots gave too little too late.

[Edited 2006-04-22 16:30:31]
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:30 pm

We haven't really seen the impact of their restructuring yet so I'm not sure I'd say that this won't work... DL had the ability to force the issue if they knew they could never make a plan work w/ the amounts being offered by DALPA. I think DL managment, like AA's, realizes you can't continue to expect employees to bear the brunt of conditions beyond their control as long as there is some hope of viability for the airline.

There is no doubt that the airlines can cope with the current fuel situation through the summer - demand is strong and pricing power has returned. The question is what happens after Labor Day and if the Gulf will get whacked by multiple hurricanes again this summer resulting in major fuel disruptions and further price hikes. You can bet, though, that all airline managements are modeling that scenario.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:34 pm

Here's a synopsis:

• Pay cut of 14% from LOA #46 followed by annual pay raises starting January 1,
2007. Additional pay increases tied to Company financial performance
(protection against the Contract ’96 debacle).
• Limited authority to operate 71-76 seat DCI jets, provided that no pilot on the
current seniority list (Troy Kane and above) is placed on furlough. This
protection is not subject to a force majeure clause.
• There are no changes to any of our duty rigs or scheduling (except for Hawaii
reporting); our quality of life items.
• The MPPP will be terminated and the money will be placed in your account that
you control.
• Notes and Equity to return a substantial part of our concessions.
• Duration of 3.5 years (12/31/2009, same as LOA #46).
• The effective date of the agreement will be June 1, 2006 if the T/A is ratified and
is approved by the Bankruptcy Court.
The following is a summary of the T/A:


Scope:

• 76-seaters will be allowed at DCI, with strict limitations on numbers, and with
incentives for mainline growth.
• If the Company furloughs a pilot on the current seniority list (Troy Kane and
above), DCI cannot fly any of the 71-76 seat jets with more than 70 seats. In fact,
they must then physically remove the excess seats from ALL such aircraft for the
balance of this contract.
o Beginning January 1, 2007, DCI is allowed to operate fifteen jets
configured with 71-76 seats. They may operate these aircraft prior to this
date, but with a maximum of 70 seats.
o On January 1, 2008, DCI is allowed to operate an additional fifteen 71-76
seat jets.
o Additional 71-76 seaters can be added, but only on the basis of mainline
aircraft growth (three 71-76 seaters for one growth mainline aircraft).

• Delete minimum block hours and planned percentages.
• Delete designated flying block hours.
• Change in control provisions allow flexibility in Chapter 11, but preserve
essential protections in an airline-to-airline transaction during Chapter 11.
• Delete the required recall of all furloughed pilots by August 1, 2008.
• Delete the requirement to be at a 75 hour ALV in certain categories for 3 months
prior to furloughing. Maintain the three month furlough notice requirement.
Compensation:

• Composite hourly pay rates will remain at 14% below the LOA 46 rates for the
balance of 2006.
• On January 1, 2007, rates will be increased 1.5%.
• On January 1, 2008, rates will increase by at least 1.5%, and may increase up to
6% based on corporate financial performance.
• On January 1, 2009, rates will increase by at least 1.5% above the minimum 2008
rates, and may increase up to 6% above the actual 2008 rates, based on corporate
financial performance.
• On December 31, 2009 rates will increase another 1%.
• See attached minimum and maximum pay rate tables.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-190/CRJ-900 will be $95.70 on June 1,
2006 and subject to the above adjustments.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-195 will be $112.50 on June 1, 2006 and
subject to the above adjustments.
• Delete night pay.
• International pay is $5.00/hr for captains and $3.00/hr for F/Os.
• Increase profit sharing pool divided among all employees from LOA #46 to a
15% payout at first dollar of pre-tax income; 20% payout on pre-tax income over
$1.5B divided proportional to W-2 income.
• Domestic per diem is $1.85/hr.
• International per diem is $2.40/hr.

Hotels

• Expanded hotel reviews and a stated preference for nationally branded hotels.
Relocation

• To be eligible for relocation at company expense, a pilot must move within 125
miles of his new base. Pilots who currently have a moving entitlement retain their
eligibility.
• Increase lump sum to cover miscellaneous moving expenses to $2000.
Vacations:

• Effective April 1, 2007, reduce the value of a vacation day to 3 hours.
• Effective April 1, 2007, delete the 6th week of vacation and reduce the vacation
accrual rate.
Administrative Flying

• Administrative pilots may fly a rotation from open time without a line pilot being
paid for the rotation. The rotation may only be removed within 96 hours of report
and, in most instances, it must have gone through at least one PCS run prior to
removal by the administrative pilot.
Training

• Improve MEC oversight of CQ material preparation.
• Clarification of pay time for distributed training that is not on a CD, but could be
in another form of media, such as a workbook.
Hours of Service

• Sixty minute report for flight segments to/from Hawaii.
• Increase DBMS displays for flight hour and PWA limitations.
Sick Leave

• The new sick leave year will be from June 1 – May 31 for all pilots.
• Pilots in their 9th year and above will have 240 sick leave hours each year.
• On a rolling 3 year basis, a pilot will have 240 hours at full pay and the rest at
75% pay.
• Pilots returning from disability will have their full pay sick leave credit hours
recharged (once in a career).
Scheduling

• The company must comply with the TLV limits commencing April 1, 2007.
• A Delta jumpseat reservation will now satisfy the commuting policy.
General

• Flow back jumpseat to be negotiated with Alaska, Northwest and Continental
immediately and with US Airways and United beginning January 1, 2007.

• A flight attendant jumpseat may be occupied by a pilot, but only if it is the only
seat available on the aircraft and no flight attendant (working or not) has
requested the jumpseat.
• Yearly non-rev pass fee of 50 dollars maximum, and no more than other
employees.
• Pilots on the FOQA monitoring team will be covered under Section 24 J. 2. and
not subject to GS charges to ALPA.
• LOA #52 establishes the Civil Reserve Air Fleet procedures.
• Financial advisory fees and major ALPA costs paid by Company.
Medical and Dental Benefits

• Increase premiums for future retired pilots and survivors prior to Medicare
eligibility.
• Provide “access only” medical coverage post-Medicare eligibility.
• Provide for modifications to medical insurance to capture savings from the Health
Coverage Tax Credit.
Retirement, Insurance, and Disability and Survivor Benefits

• Money Purchase Pension Plan accounts will be distributed to individual pilots for
self-directed investment.
• Defined Contribution (DC) Plan contribution of a flat 9% to all pilots after Pilot
Defined Benefit (DB) Plan termination.
• Maintain company 2% 401(k) cash contribution.
• ALPA will not oppose DB Plan termination.
• Implement Roth 401(k) accounts and permit contributions up to the IRS limits for
all plans.
• Disabled pilots receive disability income until mandatory FAA retirement age.
• Disabled pilots will continue to receive DC Plan and 401(k) contributions at two
times their disability benefit. This provides a retirement benefit for a disabled
pilot for the years of service while disabled.
• Income offset once a pilot on long-term disability (LTD) achieves outside income
that equals LTD income.
• Limited neutral medical examiner process for continued LTD eligibility.
• $500,000 life insurance (with guaranteed insurability) replaces current survivor
annuity beginning 1/1/08.
• Life insurance decreases to $250,000 on retirement, and then steps down in
$50,000 segments during first five years of retirement, ending with the current
$10,000 benefit.
• Company authorized to expend up to $60 million per year from the D&S Trust to
pay legally permissible pilot expenses. Establish D&S Trust re-funding
mechanism.
• Amend D&S Plan to assure that only persons who are or have been on the
seniority list (and their survivors and beneficiaries) are eligible to be beneficiaries
of the D&S Trust.
• Amend D&S Plan to clarify that in the event of DB Plan termination, disability
benefits are offset by calculated (not actual) retirement benefits.

• Clarify MPPP offset in the event of DB Plan termination.
Bankruptcy Protection Covenant, ALPA Claim, and Notes



• Process established to repair and improve employee-management relations.
Delta’s Section 1113 (c) demands that were not achieved

• 19.5% pay cut with no pay raises
• Delete 401 (k) company contribution
• Five year duration
• Delete all furlough protections
• No financial returns
• $325 million concessions per year and no recognition of DB Plan termination
• 79-seat jet DCI aircraft
• Delete the change of control provisions
• Establish a sick leave reliability program and impose draconian sick leave terms
• Minutes under offset by minutes over
• 15 minute release per duty period
• No captain on relief crew for flights over 12 hours
• Change max scheduled duty time

• Change duty period minimum
• Delete duty period average
• Delete duty period credit (1 for 2)
• Reduce rotation credit (1 for 3.5)
• Delete OJI
• Increase category freeze
• 100 seater upgrade restrictions
• Change trip assignment ladder
• Reserves assignment up to ALV+15
• Delete pay back X-days for reserve
• Reduce inverse assignment pay
• Establish flight attendant satellite base parking without benefit to pilots
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:29 am

Was perusing the copy of the gist of the contract when I opened my email this morning, and I believe its a pretty fair and balanced contract. Here are a couple of problems I see.

1. Financial advisory fees and major ALPA costs paid by Company. Medical and Dental Benefits.

Are they implying here that the advisory fees and ALPA costs should be paid by the company, as compared to ALPA footing their own bill? Isn't ALPA a business? Don't they make their own money? I sure hope I am reading that wrong. I am also interested to know if that means the pilots get all Med and Dental benefits paid by the company, as compared to the rest of us who used to get that, and now bascially pay for most of it ourselves. If I am correct in these observations, I see it as being wrong.


2. On a rolling 3 year basis, a pilot will have 240 hours at full pay and the rest at 75% pay.

And does this mean that once you pass the 240 hrs of paid sick time(which I don't agree with. why is it that everyone else at Delta gets roughly a week of paid sick time?), any other time after that is at 75%? If so, wouldn't that basically translate into, "No matter how often you are sick, your getting paid for it?" Whereas if everyone else uses up their sick time, anything beyond that is unpaid. Just hope I'm reading that wrong as well.



Other than those 2 things, I see it as a pretty fair and balanced contract. I see it as very beneficial to the company, hardly negatively affecting the pilots. Took'em long enough.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 5):
which I don't agree with. why is it that everyone else at Delta gets roughly a week of paid sick time?),

That's the upside of being in a union. You can negotiate for these types of things.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 5):
so, wouldn't that basically translate into, "No matter how often you are sick, your getting paid for it?" Whereas if everyone else uses up their sick time, anything beyond that is unpaid. Just hope I'm reading that wrong as well.

I believe you are reading it wrong. What it says is that over the course of 3 years you only get full pay for 240 hours of sick leave. Any sick leave that you have earned and used thereafter is at 75%. You still only get paid for the actual sick leave you have on the books.

For example, a pilot in his 9th year earns 240 hours of sick leave per year. Over three years, he would earn 720 hours of sick leave. Of that 720, 240 would be at full pay and 480 would be at 75%. Any sick leave beyond 720, would be unpaid.

Overall, I don't think the contract is too bad. However, I think the scope clause is still going to upset many pilots. My guess is that this TA will pass 55/45.
 
peterpuck
Posts: 249
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:59 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:44 am

Pilots can't fly with a cold.
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 7):
Pilots can't fly with a cold.

But many often do fly sick. How ironic. Gotta save up those sick days.
 
LongbowPilot
Posts: 526
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:16 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:42 am

UA was in CH11 for 3 years, DL just started, so i think the have time.
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting PeterPuck (Reply 7):
Pilots can't fly with a cold.

No doubt they shouldn't fly with a cold, but many a pilot abuse the sick time poilicies and use them to supplement their vacation time. In fact, at some airlines, their union encourages the pilots to use all of their sick time in a year. I understand that being sick for a beginning of a trip cancels the entire trip, but 240 hours is a little high, in my opinion, and encourages abuse.

With regard to the scope clause, since DCI is capped at 76 seats, and there is pay rates for the EMB-190/ 195 and CRJ-900, does that mean that mainline will be flying anything greater than 77 seats?
Tailwinds!!!
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting LongbowPilot (Reply 9):
UA was in CH11 for 3 years, DL just started, so i think the have time.

Apples and oranges. DL lost $12 billion since 2001 and is still bleeding heavily. UA quickly declared CH 11, reorganized, and has a large head start. If oil stays low, there are no 2005 style hurricanes, and they can command fare premiums for the summer, they will be in fair shape.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 10):
With regard to the scope clause, since DCI is capped at 76 seats, and there is pay rates for the EMB-190/ 195 and CRJ-900, does that mean that mainline will be flying anything greater than 77 seats?

Yes. The EMB190/195 and CRJ900 rates are for mainline. Whether or not DL actually buys any of these planes is an entirely different issue. But if they do, the payrate has been established.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 11):
Apples and oranges. DL lost $12 billion since 2001 and is still bleeding heavily. UA quickly declared CH 11, reorganized, and has a large head start. If oil stays low, there are no 2005 style hurricanes, and they can command fare premiums for the summer, they will be in fair shape.

Except UAL's post-Chap11 plan called for oil at significantly lower rates than it is currently trading at.

DL's plan was based on $70+/pbl...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
OOer
Posts: 923
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:21 am

So I guess this means we can see Skywest and ASA flying the CRJ705 really soon!!!!?????
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
Except UAL's post-Chap11 plan called for oil at significantly lower rates than it is currently trading at.

DL's plan was based on $70+/pbl...

Is that spelled out anywhere or is it a rumor? I didn't know that-thanks.
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 14):
So I guess this means we can see Skywest and ASA flying the CRJ705 really soon!!!!?????

That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe the Embraer 175 is in sight also!!!!

Glad that everything was worked out. It seems fair at the current position in time, and hopefully the sacrifices that everyone has been given will not go unoticed and will be rewarded later on when the company returns to profitability.
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 15):
Is that spelled out anywhere or is it a rumor? I didn't know that-thanks.

Look through the DTP and UAL's version and you'll see what their respective plans were based on.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:18 am

Thank you, FlyPNS1. I don't think there will be too many people that will find this proposal terribly objectionable.

As I predicted and I am glad to see, DL is able to agree to a plan that doesn't result in further wage cuts and provides some minimal increases which can become much higher based on the company's profitability. That's the way pay raises should be.

As for the RJ issue, these are really very small steps forward for DL unless they grow the mainline fleet. They could well put 64 seats in a CR7 in a 2 class config as some airlines have done but 76 seats in a CR9 will provide lots of legroom. Either way, I think you'll see 2 class RJs at DL soon.

Glad to see the provision for the EMB195. How does DL's proposed rates compare w/ B6's rates and OH/EV's rates for the CR7? Since the 195 would be the entry level airplane, the lower seniority rates are probably more important and I would like to know where 1st year captains and first officers start.

I think DL's 1st priority among regional carriers is to salvage Comair and I
think they will give any larger RJs to them if they can get their costs down - and it could provide a guaranteed revenue stream that would be necessary for them to be successfully sold off. Since DL and OH probably won't be able to place an order until one or both are out of BK, DL may have to order some early CR705s through Skywest/ASA.

As for the 100 seater, the proposed rates for the EMB look quite a bit better than for the 737-700 which is heavier and larger than what DL really wants so I think you could well see an EMB 190/195 order soon after DL's exit unless Boeing can quickly put together a proposal for a 737NG lite. DL's stature in Brazil would certainly increase if it became a major EMB operator instead of just having them in contract fleets.

Overall, I think the agreement does lay the path for DL to grow while managing DL pilot costs. DL pilots will still fare quite well compared to those of any other recently bankrupt carrier and there are strong incentives to grow. If rumors that DL is shopping for MD80s and 757s are true and if EMB195s are ordered and start arriving, the CR705 fleet won't stay small for long. DL will have a strong position and the aircraft with which to grow its domestic system.

And as for UA vs DL comparisons, DL's costs have been lower than UA's for some time and still are as of the last quarter. Further, DL has reportedly cut a substantial portion of its revenue gap vs. other carriers according to some
analysts. That is pretty impressive six months into bankruptcy and before most of the plan (transatlantic growth, Song restructuring) has had time to take effect.

DL does have a bright future and I'm glad the DL pilots have chosen to do what it takes to return the company to its position of leadership in the industry.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:05 am

I think DAL would sell Comair tomorrow if there was a viable offer. The regional airliners will be affected by the "lowest bidder" curse for the forseeable future. And it would appear that Mesa can underbid just about anyone. No one seems to care that you get what you pay for. Except passengers.

Comair still has not reached cost structure that approaches Mesa. And who knows what will come out of the Northwest situation. Bottom line is that employees at Comair are scratching their heads wondering what hapened.
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:18 am

Regarding the DALPA/DAL TA and it's sick leave provisions, It looks pretty OK. I've never used 240 hrs of sick leave over a 3 year period. And it was my intention to vote "No" on any agreement that included the company's initial demands on sick leave. That initial agreement would have forced pilots to fly sick. That is a legitimate safety issue. Plus, I hate caring the other guys load because he did not stay home in bed. Ask any lawyer whether sick pilots in the cockpit is a good idea. I cannot imagine the liability of that assine proposal that DAL wanted to make us eat.

I never abuse sick leave. Pilots who do piss me off. But if I am sick, I do not fly. This agreement addresses the need to keep sick pilots out of the cockpit and I think it does so adequately. And 240hrs at full pay and then 75% after protects the guy who has a broken leg, prostate surgery, and arortic valve replacement all in the same month.
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:27 am

Here is a little bit more on the MEC approval. Voting starts in mid-May and will be open for 15 days. Thats just freaking great. I am due to travel on DL on May 28th and again on Juve 4th. So if they vote it down..I am royally screwed! It will be too late to rebook as I am sure every other carrier will be full over the Memorial Day weekend. The only hope I have is that the MEC voted 12-1 so it was not even a close vote.

Delta pilots union ratify tentative agreement
Posted 4/21/2006 11:44 PM ET

ATLANTA (AP) — The leaders of the pilots union at Delta Air Lines Inc. have ratified a tentative agreement, endorsing concessions that include an initial 14% wage cut and assurances the union won't block any company effort to terminate its pension plan.

The vote by the leadership was 12-1 in favor of ratification, according to a memo sent late Friday to pilots, who will be asked to approve it.

The agreement was reached between the nation's third-largest carrier and union negotiators on April 14, clearing one hurdle for Atlanta-based Delta by avoiding a crippling strike. The airline also has a hub in Salt Lake City.

Now comes what could be the harder part — getting the airline's 5,930 pilots, who came to the brink of a walkout, to approve the deal.

Union leaders had been meeting since Wednesday in New Orleans to discuss the agreement.

The deal represents "a concessionary agreement," Lee Moak, chairman of the union's executive committee, told pilots.

But, he said, "Our goal throughout the Chapter 11 process has been to reach a comprehensive consensual agreement that will lead to our working for a profitable airline with long-term viability that protects the major terms of our (contract) and that provides strong returns for our sacrifices. I believe this agreement meets that goal."

The balloting will begin in mid-May and will remain open for 15 days.

Delta spokesman Bruce Hicks said the company would release a statement Saturday.

According to the agreement obtained by The Associated Press, effective June 1, pilots' composite hourly pay rates will be reduced 14% from the composite hourly pay rates that were in effect on Dec. 14.

But on Jan. 1, composite hourly pay rates will be increased 1.5%. Further pay increases are included in later years of the revised contract.

Delta, which filed for bankruptcy in September, has said its pilots who worked all of last year made an average of $157,000.

The agreement also says that in the event of termination of the Delta Pilots Retirement Plan, the pilots' defined contribution plan will be amended to provide a single company contribution rate equal to a flat 9% of earnings.

The total value of the concessions was not immediately able to be determined because of the complexity of the agreement.

Before the tentative agreement was reached, Delta had been seeking to void its contract with its pilots so it could impose up to $325 million in annual concessions. The union had threatened to strike if the contract was rejected by an arbitration panel.

The panel decision is now on hold with the tentative agreement, but it could resurface if the rank-and-file pilots reject the accord.

Delta's pilots previously agreed to $1 billion in annual concessions, including a 32.5% wage cut, in a five-year deal in 2004. But Delta, which has imposed pay cuts on other employees, said it needed more from its pilots.
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:30 am

And DL's statement that was released today:


ATLANTA, April 22, 2006 – Delta Air Lines (Other OTC: DALRQ) today confirmed that the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), the union representing the airline’s approximately 6,000 pilots, has ratified the tentative agreement and has agreed to present it to its membership for ratification by May 31, 2006.

“This is a reflection of a shared commitment to work together to help deliver the cost savings the company needs to successfully emerge from bankruptcy and to become the fierce competitor we know we can be,” said Gerald Grinstein, Delta’s chief executive officer.

“Together we are making real progress on our business plan and this agreement represents an important piece of our restructuring puzzle. It also represents additional hardship for our pilots and I appreciate their consideration of something that is vitally important to the future of this company.”

The tentative agreement’s terms and conditions provide the necessary pilot savings through a combination of changes to pay, benefits and work rules.

Because the company is reorganizing through the Chapter 11 process, the tentative agreement is subject to the U.S. Bankruptcy Court’s approval. If ratified by the pilots and approved by the Court, the agreement’s terms and conditions will be effective June 1, 2006 and become amendable on Dec. 31, 2009.

“We believe the structure and key elements of this agreement provide the competitive framework necessary for the company’s successful reorganization,” said Edward H. Bastian, Delta’s executive vice president, chief financial officer and head of the company’s in-court restructuring efforts. The four-year deal provides approximately $280 million in average annual pilot labor cost savings.

The company’s business plan had called for $325 million in annual pilot labor savings. “We agreed to reduce our proposal and make improvements to the overall package recognizing the likelihood the pilot pension plan would be terminated,” said Bastian.

“All Delta employees have made significant contributions to help Delta succeed, and they continue to demonstrate a level of professionalism and dedication unrivaled in this industry. Thanks to everyone’s sacrifice and continued focus on taking good care of our customers, coupled with the network and revenue improvements we are making, we are delivering real results,” Grinstein said. “We have a solid plan for the future; one that holds great opportunity for all Delta people.”

Barring any disruptions, the company is on track to achieve approximately 70 percent of its business plan’s benefits by the end of this year, with the goal of successfully emerging from bankruptcy in 2007.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
Either way, I think you'll see 2 class RJs at DL soon.

The Shuttle America EMB170's operating for Delta already have a 2 class config.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
How does DL's proposed rates compare w/ B6's rates and OH/EV's rates for the CR7?

12 year Captain Rate:
DL EMB195 $112.50
DL EMB190 $95.70
US EMB190 $95
B6 EMB190 $89
OH CRJ700 $94
EV CRJ700 $86
OO* CRJ700 $78

*SkyWest has one payrate for all RJ's between 50 and 99 seats.

The DL rates are competitive with JetBlue and USAirways, the other two EMB190 operators. They aren't so good when compared with OH and EV which fly smaller planes for rates almost as high.

I doubt DL will get anymore paycuts from Comair pilots. The last cut barely passed and still hasn't been implemented because of the FA's. ASA pilots have been in contract negotiations for 4 years, but likely won't get raises. SkyWest will whipsaw them against SkyWest's own non-union pilots.

I agree that DL wants to sell Comair, but may have a tough time getting Comair's costs down.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:04 am

Thanks again, FlyPNS1. I think you can almost count on an EMB order for DL mainline. Good job. What is the new 737-700 rate?

I think you can extrapolate the pilot agreement to include some provisions for non-contract personnel such as the revised profit sharing and equity goals. I am quite sure DL will not give the pilots a benefit (esp. ownership in the company) that it is not going to the other employees.

I do realize the Shuttle America 170s are 2 class but there are very few of those.

I don't think DL/OH is after any more OH pilot pay cuts. But if these rates are current, I don't think you'll see any CR7s going to OO. I thought OH pilots just agreed to some cuts and the F/As are the only ones left to have their contract reworked. Can you correct/update the OH situation?

777ER,
don't worry about your trip. Even if this proposal is voted down (highly unlikely), there are alot of steps both sides would have to go through in order for any labor action to take place. The arbitration process might have replaced the mandatory 30 day cooling off period (not sure since that was a first) but if this agreement is rejected, they will have to go back to a process that will take months at least to conclude.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
I thought OH pilots just agreed to some cuts and the F/As are the only ones left to have their contract reworked. Can you correct/update the OH situation?

The OH pilots did agree to cuts and those cuts are the current rate I quoted for Comair. However, I mistakenly quoted the 18year rate for Comair, the 12 year rate is $79 for the CRJ700 Captain.

However, these rates have NOT actually taken effect. The pilots concessionary contract had a clause that said their cuts wouldn't go into effect until all other groups had agreed to cuts. Since the FA's have not agreed to cuts, the pilots concessions are not in effect.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
What is the new 737-700 rate?

For a 12 year Captain, it would be $134....it's the same rate as the 732/733 which are retiring.
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 20):
Regarding the DALPA/DAL TA and it's sick leave provisions, It looks pretty OK. I've never used 240 hrs of sick leave over a 3 year period. And it was my intention to vote "No" on any agreement that included the company's initial demands on sick leave. That initial agreement would have forced pilots to fly sick. That is a legitimate safety issue. Plus, I hate caring the other guys load because he did not stay home in bed. Ask any lawyer whether sick pilots in the cockpit is a good idea. I cannot imagine the liability of that assine proposal that DAL wanted to make us eat.

I never abuse sick leave. Pilots who do piss me off. But if I am sick, I do not fly. This agreement addresses the need to keep sick pilots out of the cockpit and I think it does so adequately. And 240hrs at full pay and then 75% after protects the guy who has a broken leg, prostate surgery, and arortic valve replacement all in the same month.

Agree 100%, safety comes first, these the "abusers" everywhere....... and I hope that the pension issues can be solved for the future for good.

Cheers,
 
B777Fanatic1
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:09 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:29 am

After reading that new contract and comparing new pay to other airlines 'i have realized that pilots in other countries make more than Delta
pilots, incredible! For example a 777 captain in AM (Aeromexico) makes about 8k more than a 762 captain at Delta. Is this fair?
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting B777Fanatic1 (Reply 27):
For example a 777 captain in AM (Aeromexico) makes about 8k more than a 762 captain at Delta. Is this fair?

I wonder what management at AM makes compared to peers at DL. I'll bet it's much, much less.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:58 am

seems to me that the economics of operating the 190/195 are very strong and much more favorable than the 732/3. It will be interesting to see what DL does but it seems that unless Boeing has a real good idea that it pulls out of its sleeve for real fast delivery, DL could be ordering a bunch of E Jets. I'll put my odds on the 190 over the 195. It seems like you only get a couple more seats over 100 in a 2 class config but you have to add another flight attendant and lose some of the range you get w/ the 190.

DL may not have a whole lot of interest in the CR705 if they can get E190s on the property pretty quickly. I would far rather see DL pilots flying them. The irony may be that DL is paying to not have to recall the furloughees but might end up doing just that if they order the 190.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting B777ER (Reply 21):
Thats just freaking great. I am due to travel on DL on May 28th and again on Juve 4th. So if they vote it down..I am royally screwed! It will be too late to rebook as I am sure every other carrier will be full over the Memorial Day weekend. The only hope I have is that the MEC voted 12-1 so it was not even a close vote.

I think you'll be fine. I just booked a flight for travel on 5/27 with a return on 6/7. Even if the pilot's vote "NO", there won't immediately be a strike.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
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RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
That's the upside of being in a union. You can negotiate for these types of things.

Eh, true. Of course, I always thought you should be able to accrue sick time. So many hours a month, rather than one lump amount that leaves you counting every day you are out sick.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
I believe you are reading it wrong. What it says is that over the course of 3 years you only get full pay for 240 hours of sick leave. Any sick leave that you have earned and used thereafter is at 75%. You still only get paid for the actual sick leave you have on the books

Ah! I was reading it wrong. For some reason, that just didn't look right as it was. I knew it didn't make sense in that way. Thanks.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 6):
However, I think the scope clause is still going to upset many pilots.

But it does give incentives for more mainline flights. One mainline per 3 RJ's. At least now they can't say ALL the RJ's are taking their jobs away. LOL

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 19):
No one seems to care that you get what you pay for. Except passengers.

Then why are they demaning more and more $99 cross country flights, and could care less what airline they are on or what the crews make. They would not care if they were flying on Arianna Afghan Airlines from JFK-SFO and the pilot was paid less than a convict collecting trash on the side of the road, as long as they saved that almighty dollar.


OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 19):
The regional airliners will be affected by the "lowest bidder" curse for the forseeable future. And it would appear that Mesa can underbid just about anyone.

Much like DL lowering fares to match AirTran. US matching WN. Nothing regional about it. DL matching B6.

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 19):
I think DAL would sell Comair tomorrow if there was a viable offer.

I think DL would hire cheaper Comair pilots tomorrow if they could figure out a way.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 29):
DL may not have a whole lot of interest in the CR705 if they can get E190s on the property pretty quickly. I would far rather see DL pilots flying them.

Why do you care if either DL versus OH pilots fly them? Aren't they in the same family?

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 31):
Then why are they demaning more and more $99 cross country flights, and could care less what airline they are on or what the crews make.

Passengers aren't demanding $99 cross country flights like they are demanding less than $3.00 gas. The typical family makes $60K a year and buys a $40,000 Suburban. People will pay what you charge them-don't blame them for buying tickets. Your anger should be directed toward Virginia Avenue for charging these prices at the expense of the pilots salaries, both major and regional.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 31):
They would not care if they were flying on Arianna Afghan Airlines from JFK-SFO and the pilot was paid less than a convict collecting trash on the side of the road, as long as they saved that almighty dollar.

I don't think the typical passenger knows, nor probably cares, what a regional pilot makes. However, ALPA and the typical DL pilot knows what a regional pilot makes and yet they don't seem to care about putting their entire familiy on a high performance jet flown by a crew with a combined experience of 30 months in type and combined income of $65k a year.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:39 pm

No, DL and OH are not the same family. Related, yes. Although I believe OH employees are some of the best in the regional business, I would still rather be served by DL employees.

Given that demand remains strong after multiple fare hikes, I believe airlines have been giving their seats away too cheaply. Fuel price hikes might be the great equalizer that have convinced even B6 and WN that they can't price their product so far below reason and still survive - and the increases are to the benefit of everyone. For five years, the airline industry has lived on razor thin margins at best; there are too many risk factors at play to not take advantage of strong demand now to put a little money away (or stop the bleeding at least) for the inevitable rainy day.

Back to the topic, I still think this TA gives DL what it needs to move the company forward while being able to aggressively compete against any carrier out there. Redeploying the widebody fleet to int'l will provide lots of premium flying for DL pilots while the inevitable 100 seater order will mean DL will grow again domestically, even if there has to be a short-term bridge using some 705s or similar aircraft and a healthy sized 70 seat fleet (which will probably be used to start replacing some of the older 50 seaters).
 
bucky707
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 20):
I never abuse sick leave. Pilots who do piss me off.

I agree. I have told union reps that we are to blame for the companies request for the sick leave changes. Every time a union rep goes in and defends a pilot who knows is abusing sick leave, he cheapens the rest of us. I think the new sick leave policy is fine.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 19):
I think DAL would sell Comair tomorrowrnif there was a viable offer. The regional airliners will be affected byrnthe "lowest bidder" curse for the forseeablernfuture. And it would appear that Mesa can underbid just about anyone.rnNo one seems to care that you get what you pay for. Except passengers.

Comairrnstill has not reached cost structure that approaches Mesa. And whornknows what will come out of the Northwest situation. Bottom line isrnthat employees at Comair are scratching their heads wondering what hapened.

Justrnsitting back looking at things, OH future does not look promising atrnall. DL has gone around OH to grow. I question the concessionsrndependent upon agreement by all 3 unions. I do not understand thern"method of the madness" b/c cash is not being freed up in the short-term. It appears OH wants the 1113 which willrnbite you down the road in any "good faith negotiating" obligation. Whornknows.

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 20):
Regarding the DALPA/DALrnTA and it's sick leave provisions, It looks pretty OK. I've never usedrn240 hrs of sick leave over a 3 year period. And it was my intention tornvote "No" on any agreement that included the company's initial demandsrnon sick leave. That initial agreement would have forced pilots to flyrnsick. That is a legitimate safety issue. Plus, I hate caring the otherrnguys load because he did not stay home in bed. Ask any lawyer whetherrnsick pilots in the cockpit is a good idea. I cannot imagine thernliability of that assine proposal that DAL wanted to make us eat.

Irnnever abuse sick leave. Pilots who do piss me off. But if I am sick, Irndo not fly. This agreement addresses the need to keep sick pilots outrnof the cockpit and I think it does so adequately. And 240hrs at fullrnpay and then 75% after protects the guy who has a broken leg, prostaternsurgery, and arortic valve replacement all in the same month.

I agree with you on someone sick in the cockpit. This subject was discussed on a morning talk show, ( I know limited credibility) the company providedrndata an average of 1088/yr pilots had maxed out the 240 hours. That'srnover 20% of the workforce which is an astounding number. DL's management has proven to be the most arrogant and worst managed group, but finally they've moved in the correct direction.

The union can handle this and it's a prime example of a few people screwing it up for those who need it!!

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 23):
12 year Captain Rate:
DL EMB195 $112.50
DL EMB190 $95.70
US EMB190 $95
B6 EMB190 $89
OH CRJ700 $94
EV CRJ700 $86
OO* CRJ700 $78

Wow, these pay rates prove DL should stay out of the 100 seat market. The pay rates combined with cost of implementing a new fleet type are not competitive with B6 or FL. DL two nemeses. This is disappointing DL is throwing money at a known problem. I agree with losing a few battles to win a war, but hell.

I think ALPA should have demanded a management change. What in the hell are the shareholder and the board doing??
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 32):
People will pay what you charge them-don't blame them for buying tickets.

Then whats with the explosion of LCC's in recent years? People were willing to sacrifice service frills for lower fares. Ever wonder why airlines have so many different types of fares? Because the flying public wanted choices to choose from. I want a cheap fare and can accept these restrictions, but not those, etc. So then the airline delivers so many fare options, they are then blasted for making it so convoluted-looking. So, if it is true, that people will pay what you charge them, then why don't you get WN and B6 to jump on the bandwagon. They are willing to make less profit per ticket in exchange to make it up in loads. Why don't you inform them that people will pay what you charge, to raise fares, and everyone makes money and is happy.

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 32):
I don't think the typical passenger knows, nor probably cares, what a regional pilot makes. However, ALPA and the typical DL pilot knows what a regional pilot makes and yet they don't seem to care about putting their entire familiy on a high performance jet flown by a crew with a combined experience of 30 months in type and combined income of $65k a year

Exactly. And if the typical passenger doesn't know and doesn't care, they will base everything on getting a lower price, even if its at the expense of the pilot. Their outlook is the same, "He must be a good and safe pilot. After all, the airline DID hire him. They wouldn't have done that if he wasn't safe. So it must be ok, regardless of what what he is paid."



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:32 am

It's all fine except for the scope erosion. I expect to see it voted down simply because it allows 76 seaters at DCI. Not good.
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 37):
It's all fine except for the scope erosion. I expect to see it voted down simply because it allows 76 seaters at DCI.

How would 76 seaters hurt the current seniority list at DL, especially the senior members? I expect it will pass with 80% approval.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:54 am

Everytime you let the cat out of the bag on larger planes at DCI, it becomes nearly impossible to get those back to mainline. Everytime you allow a larger aircraft at DCI, it become less and less likely that the furloughed Delta pilots will ever be called back to fly a 737 or MD80.

You're right, it doesn't really effect the senior members, but scope erosion is destroying the profession.

Management sees this in the future: a name brand, with the planes being crewed by firms who place the lowest bid for the work. This will happen if scope erosion continues.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 38):
How would 76 seaters hurt the current seniority list at DL, especially the senior members? I expect it will pass with 80% approval

The scope clause is the only thing ALPA has left. Work rules and pay can be cut, but scope is the one thing the unions need to protect inorder to make money.

ALPA receives 1% of it members annual pay in dues. Keeping the scope clause guarantee's revenue for the union. Mainline pay is higher than connection carriers no matter the airline. ALPA had rather receive more mainline dues than connection carriers.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:39 am

Scope is an issue of principle only. It doesn't affect pilots that are on the active payroll now since DL has given them furlough protection. Most pilots, just like any other person, are more interested in their own welfare and DL's scope provisions do not threaten one pilot on the active payroll.

As for the 100 seaters, I fail to see the argument that those are not competitive rates. In fact on a per seat basis, there are better economics for DL flying EMB 190s than there are for Delta connection flying CR7s. Plus the EMB 190 is a far superior aircraft in just about every way.

The real issue is that DL knows like LCCs that they have to grow the airline in order to keep costs down. All the work in bankruptcy to reduce costs goes out the window if you do not keep the airline growing. DL can buy a few used narrowbodies, buy expensive int'l widebodies, and/or they can buy lots of small imported 100 seaters. Although DL will probably order from each of those 3 categories, I expect most of DL's mainline growth will come from the new 100 seater category because it is highly competitive in the domestic market and DL would have a huge advantage over most other legacies if they get an order in soon. Keep in mind the rates above are topped out rates which most pilots will not be making. Couple with the E Jet's superior aircraft economics, DL would be hard pressed not to order it - even if it does introduce another entirely different fleet type.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1482
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 24):
I think you can extrapolate the pilot agreement to include some provisions for non-contract personnel such as the revised profit sharing and equity goals. I am quite sure DL will not give the pilots a benefit (esp. ownership in the company) that it is not going to the other employees.

Actually, it's the other way around. Any benefits offered to the non-union employees are automatically given to the pilot group. For instance any pay raises given to non-union employees must also be given to the pilots.
Of course you won't see it work the other way. I won't get the automatic raises the pilots get. As far as ownership I feel the pilots will more than likely get a disproportional stake in the company in comparison to the rest of the employees. And before any of you all start telling me that if I don't like it I should have become a pilot or should have gotten a union, I know that. I'm not bitching, I'm merely stating fact and my opinion. Good for the pilots, I can't say I wouldn't do the same in their shoes.

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 28):
I wonder what management at AM makes compared to peers at DL. I'll bet it's much, much less.

I haven't a clue what management at AM or any other foreign carrier makes, but I know that management at Delta is the bottom of the payscale for domestic carriers. What do you want them do? Work for free? When the pilots are making less than at any other carrier then you might have an argument. Till then, that line of reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

Now if you want to question current management's competence, I'm right there with you.

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 32):
Passengers aren't demanding $99 cross country flights like they are demanding less than $3.00 gas. The typical family makes $60K a year and buys a $40,000 Suburban. People will pay what you charge them-don't blame them for buying tickets. Your anger should be directed toward Virginia Avenue for charging these prices at the expense of the pilots salaries, both major and regional.

The one thing I'm really tired of hearing though is how the pilots say they are paying for the company and totally trivialize the sacrifices the other employees are making. What we all need to realize is that we are all part of the Delta family and we either need to commit ourselves to Delta's future or move on.

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 32):
However, ALPA and the typical DL pilot knows what a regional pilot makes and yet they don't seem to care about putting their entire familiy on a high performance jet flown by a crew with a combined experience of 30 months in type and combined income of $65k a year.

Proves that they realize that low pay does not necessarily compromise safety.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 39):
Everytime you let the cat out of the bag on larger planes at DCI, it becomes nearly impossible to get those back to mainline.

I didn't realize that mainline was flying 76 seat aircraft.  Yeah sure

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 39):
You're right, it doesn't really effect the senior members, but scope erosion is destroying the profession.

Wow! Straight out of the union cliche book. You must be one of those ALPA members that when asked what you do you say, "I provide pilot services to Delta".

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 39):
Management sees this in the future: a name brand, with the planes being crewed by firms who place the lowest bid for the work. This will happen if scope erosion continues.

tick-tock, tick-tock......

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 42):

Yeah, what's your point Dl757? You're in favor of outsourcing more pilot jobs? I'm sure you realize that this is what a regional jet is: an outsourced domestic narrowbody.

You say mainline doesn't fly 76 seat aircraft, but you're kdding yourself if you think the economics of 76 seat aircraft aren't predicated on the pathetically low wages that the regional crews will be payed to fly them.

I'd like to see DALPA send this back just based on the scope clause. Get anything larger than 70 seats at mainline, and keep the wages at regional levels. They can worry about increasing payscales for this size of airplane at a time when bargaining conditions are more favorable. These pilots need to keep their scope or they will ultimately outsource-themselves out of work.

I don't think that's too much to ask....
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:48 am

When was actually the last time mainline operated a 76-seater? Must have still been during the mainline pro years. The closest was probably the DC-9s with 88, during the early 80's before there even was anything called 'Delta Connection'. Oh, and as a side: During the 90's, ASA operated a couple of Bae-146s for DL, and how many seats did they have? Exactly, 88, just like the mainline DC-9s over a decade before, and 18 more than the current scope limit, and still 12 more than the new one. And let's not forget all the 80-seat ARJs Business Express was flying around the Northeast for DL for years, which obviously was perfectly acceptable back then.
Boy, do times change, huh?
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 42):
Any benefits offered to the non-union employees are automatically given to the pilot group. For instance any pay raises given to non-union employees must also be given to the pilots.

If DL agreed to this, then shame on the mgt. The pilots are protected by their contract where as non-union employees have taken hits in pay for the last few years. Then again, the large unions are slowly becoming extinct hence the protection of the scope clause.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 42):
Now if you want to question current management's competence, I'm right there with you.



Flawed business plan. In 10 yrs DL will be the case study in business studies of how not to operate a business.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
As for the 100 seaters, I fail to see the argument that those are not competitive rates. In fact on a per seat basis, there are better economics for DL flying EMB 190s than there are for Delta connection flying CR7s. Plus the EMB 190 is a far superior aircraft in just about every way.

Better economics in cockpit cost only, the limited revenue will not support DL cost structure even after BK. DL could ever operate any aircraft cheaper than a DCI carrier. DCI carriers do not have the overhead cost of DL. Unfortunate for DL, this will prolong DL's problems.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
Couple with the E Jet's superior aircraft economics, DL would be hard pressed not to order it - even if it does introduce another entirely different fleet type.

Yes, it's the best aircraft in its seat category. Unfortuante for DL, they will not receive the best lease rates as a DCI carrier. Once DL scraps the pension obligation, their debt is reduced from $29 Billion to $19 Billion. That's a big number when operating in an industry facing too much capacity and the possibilities of oil breaking $100/ barrel.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 39):
You're right, it doesn't really effect the senior members, but scope erosion is destroying the profession.

I love it when I hear this stuff about "the profession." Well, whatever your views on it, you better hang on, because its gonna happen. It may be destroying YOUR profession, but those boys over at Mesa, Chatauqua, AWAC, Skywest, etc. are seeing it as nothing but beneficial to THEIR profession. Your profession destroyed, their profession employed(and making money). Isn't it funny how that happens?

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 39):
Management sees this in the future: a name brand, with the planes being crewed by firms who place the lowest bid for the work. This will happen if scope erosion continues.

And that matters how if the company and shareholders are making money?

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 42):
Proves that they realize that low pay does not necessarily compromise safety.

Don't tell KAUS that. He will go to great lengths to tell you that the amount of time/money spent is directly proportional/disproportional to safety when it comes to aviation. Pay someone very experienced a low pay and you will see a burning wreck. Pay a green guy with little time a large salary and that plane will land safely.

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 42):
You must be one of those ALPA members that when asked what you do you say, "I provide pilot services to Delta".

One of those guys who don't seem to notice that paycheck says Delta on it, not ALPA.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 43):
Yeah, what's your point Dl757? You're in favor of outsourcing more pilot jobs? I'm sure you realize that this is what a regional jet is: an outsourced domestic narrowbody.

Well, if it makes the company profitable and provides great benefits to the shareholders, why not? Thats the whole point of running a business, to keep costs down. Don't like it and worried about the job? Then go to a regional airline. One of those making buckets of money on this revenue stream. There you will have a little more job security and won't have to worry as much. You may have to give up a little pay, but that seems to be all you care about with "the profession."

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 43):
These pilots need to keep their scope or they will ultimately outsource-themselves out of work.

I don't know, I believe the scope on the contract is for every 3 RJ's, DL increases 1 mainline. Seems pretty reasonable, even at the 3:1 ratio, those outsourced jobs you refer to are increasing the amount of flights flown by mainline. How is that detrimental to mainline pilots, who are guaranteed for every 3 RJ's added, there will be one more mainline flight added?


I see it passing with a 70% approval.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:43 am

I'm definitely dissappointed with the continual lowering of pay in the piloting profession. I'm going to do everything within my own meager power to stop it.

Ottopylit, apparantly you feel that pilots are making beyond what is justified. Let me ask you, just what is a fair salary for a Delta MD88 crew in your opinion? $20,000/yr for the captain and 10,000/yr for the FO? F/A's working for nothing but their travel bennies? Let's hire nothing but part time workers ala wal mart to save even more cash. Who cares, as long as the shareholders are making money!

As far as the pilots at MESA, Chautauqua, AirWisconsin, and skywest being thrilled about temporary growth, ask them again in 5 years when someone starts a new "regional" and udercuts them because they get to start everyone off at 1st year pay. I would estimate that 75% or more of the pilots at those airlines do not plan on spending a career there anyway....their temporary growth is being carried out to the detriment of the better jobs they ultimately seek.

The same thing happens on a smaller scale between each mainline/LCC "brand" (with new startups like jetblue), but the effect is magnified at the regional due to the nature of the contract work they do (read: easily replaceable). The regionals are nothing but a union busting tool.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 47):
I'm definitely dissappointed with the continual lowering of pay in the piloting profession. I'm going to do everything within my own meager power to stop it.

Then hold on to your seats, because this ride has just begun. Welcome to the Walmart world, and the name of the game is to do whatever, however, just to get costs lower and lower.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 47):
Ottopylit, apparantly you feel that pilots are making beyond what is justified. Let me ask you, just what is a fair salary for a Delta MD88 crew in your opinion? $20,000/yr for the captain and 10,000/yr for the FO?

I feel nothing of the kind. I feel that pilots should make whatever the market and the company can bear. If the market is booming and profits are soaring through the roof, whatever can paid to give all the employees of the company a leg up on cost of living, while also keeping the company financially viable, should be done so. However, during down times, whatever must be paid that the market bears and that will keep the company financially viable should be done so. Therefore, whatever the market can support is what the pilots should be paid. Welcome again to the world the rest of us already live in.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 47):
Who cares, as long as the shareholders are making money!

Well, they are the ones that own the company. Your not gonna tell a person who owns stake in your company that they won't make any money this year because you think some people in the company needs to get paid as much as humanly possible, even if its taking it out of the owner's(shareholders) wallet. Well, you apparently think so, but everyone else doesn't.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 47):
I would estimate that 75% or more of the pilots at those airlines do not plan on spending a career there anyway....their temporary growth is being carried out to the detriment of the better jobs they ultimately seek.

Oh, so your saying that the jobs they ultimately seek isn't so much a flying job in general, which is why a passionate pilot flies, but more of a flying job that gives them a luxurious lifestyle. The jobs they ultimately seek are the ones that are always seemingly give and take between them and management because they are so highly paid? Because, last time I looked, I haven't seen that give and take mentality at those regional airlines. I was talking to an ASA pilot while on a flight not long ago, he's actually a good friend who also flies F-15's for the same Air Guard unit. Asked him why everyone else in the unit aimed for the big boys and he settled for the smaller, less paying ASA. He said that he could have done so, and when he started ASA, that was initially his intention. But not long after, he saw the frictious relationships between the pilots at the majors and his airline, which did not have such type relations with management. Very quickly, it seemed he kept moving up and up in seniority and type and is now a CR7 Captain. He said he could still move up, but the way he sees it, he works for a company that keeps expanding size and flights, including internationally, he works for a company that keeps adding larger and larger aircraft, and a company that usually gives him raises through contracts without the heavy friction like everyone else. Basically, his company is able to do everything else that the majors cannot. The majors are not expanding, except internationally, is not adding larger aircraft, and a company that is taking concessions from employees. He now says, "Why would I want to go do that? I make a fine living off my job and pay, one that supports me quite well, including my Air Force once a month flight pay, so why would I want to leave and live the kind of life all the other guys at the Guard bitch about?" He makes a very valid point, if you ask me.

Quoting KAUSpilot (Reply 47):
The regionals are nothing but a union busting tool.

Well, considering the fact that I'm a Republican and hate unions, unlike your Democratic, union-loving self, I applaud the regionals for busting as many unions as possible. rotfl 



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Pilot Union Leaders OK Concessions

Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:54 am

Av consultant,
I have to disagree with you. Employee costs are the primary costs in the airline business and based on the pilot rates, DL can fly an EMB as efficiently as any regional carrier. Flight attendants might be somewhat cheaper but keep in mind that DL has invested in huge amounts of technology to make the ground operation at DL as efficient if not moreso than that of any other airline. DL can compete effectively with any carrier and in the case of the 100 seat E-jets, I think that includes regional carriers. But the reality is that DL knows they have to because ALPA would never give those jobs up. Whether its the E-jet or not, DL like just about every other US legacy carrier has to have a 100 seat airplane. It sure looks to me that DL has set itself in a pretty good position to operate them.

And ownership costs for aircraft are not necessarily much higher for DL even after bankruptcy than they are for a regional airline. Many manufacturers are willing to finance a large percentage of aircraft, which do remain secured assets. DL will be generating significant amounts of cash in order to get out of bankruptcy - that's what all but the weakest airlines do. How they spend it is another story but it is not at all unreasonable to think that DL or any newly restructured airline can invest $1B or more per year in aircraft given that 80% or more of that is financed. DL has established $500M as the minimum amount of capital spending already and DL, AA, and UA were all spending $3B or more on capex back in the late 90s when they were generating $3B in cash per year and reporting $1B profits. CO, a much smaller airline than DL has spent over $1B/yr in capex for most of the past decade and that was just a few years out of bankruptcy. Manufacturers like Embraer and Airbus that would love to place airplanes at DL will be very generous with terms.

757,
since the whole compensation system at DL is in flux right now, it is what DL is offering to the pilots that will foreshadow what nonpilot personnel will get. You can bet, though, that nonpilot personnel will participate in profitsharing (that's already been announced) and they will get some equity. Proportionally, pilots will get more because they have higher averager salaries than most other workgroups. The only reasonable adjustment, if any, should be for the time that nonpilot personnel took cuts while the pilots were still holding out. How DL management will handle that, I do not know.

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