User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:44 pm

The German Handelsblatt reports that LH has apparently decided to sell off its 50% stake in Thomas Cook to Karstadt Quelle and to re-integrate Condor back fully into the Lufthansa Group. The deal is due to be closed within the coming weeks.

Source: http://handelsblatt.de/pshb/fn/relhb...stadt-greift-nach-thomas-cook.html (German Only)

English language link: http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxn...0&subject=companies&action=article

What do you think about this move? It certainly comes as a surprise.
 
Johnny
Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:38 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:58 pm

No, it is no surprise.

Lufthansa allways had the problem that they couldn´t decide everything by their own without asking the tour operator.

For me it makes perfect sense.

The low cost airlines will face a vry hard competiton from the LH Group with Condor,Germanwings and LH itself offering aggressive prizes.

Maybe we will see a merge of Germanwings and Condor very soon...

 Smile Johnny
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:10 pm

I think it makes a lot of sense. LH should concentrate on being an airline and not distract themselves with side ventures.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
LH should concentrate on being an airline and not distract themselves with side ventures.

Actually, that is one of the things that hurt United. By divesting of their vast holdings, including Hertz and Westin, they were able to spread the risk over a much smaller array of markets.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:52 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
Lufthansa allways had the problem that they couldn´t decide everything by their own without asking the tour operator.

But then why did LH combine DE with Karstadt-Quelle's NUR Touristic to form what eventually became TCX in the first place?
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
Actually, that is one of the things that hurt United. By divesting of their vast holdings, including Hertz and Westin, they were able to spread the risk over a much smaller array of markets.

What is the antecedent of "that"? What hurt United? Ownership of Hertz and Westin? Or divestiture of Hertz and Westin?
 
MaartenV
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:16 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:50 pm

Will Condor revert back to its old yellow colour scheme? Will it be an independent charter airline, remain an exclusive operator for Thomas Cook, turn in to a low-cost long-haul airline, or a combination of charter/long-haul low-cost?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
Maybe we will see a merge of Germanwings and Condor very soon...

Would that be a wise idea, to combine a successful short-haul low-cost, with a charter/semi low-cost long-haul airline?
Its all about supply and demand...
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:23 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):
What is the antecedent of "that"? What hurt United? Ownership of Hertz and Westin? Or divestiture of Hertz and Westin?

Divestiture. Vertical travel integration is something that needs to be looked at again, particularly since the costs of propulsion are getting so high.

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 6):
Will Condor revert back to its old yellow colour scheme?

Well, they are already reverting to Condor branding
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MaartenV
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:16 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Well, they are already reverting to Condor branding

Yes, 'Thomas Cook' has been removed from the fuselage and replaced by 'Condor', but they still have the Thomas Cook colors, as well as the Thomas Cook logo on the tail.

[Edited 2006-04-24 11:31:08]
Its all about supply and demand...
 
aerosol
Posts: 497
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 10:31 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:48 pm

I think they will shift Condor Short Haul equipment to Germanwings and concentrate Condor on the longhaul charter market.

Say good bye to LTU/DBA in the long term!

Everything just speculation  Smile
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:04 pm

LH denies the report by Handelsblatt. still, i think they will sell TC to Karstadt sooner or later.

Condor will not revert to yellow color scheme (which is a pity that they don't do that), but keep Condor titles.

I thought as well that Germanwings should take over DE's short haul routes. current interviews by DE officials indicate the contrary, they will keep it. anyway, the cooperation between both is set to grow closer as they have linked their websites and sell each other flights.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
dj1986
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:25 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:49 pm

I don't think LH would brand the short haul operations of DE into Germanwings because the Condor brand name is more widely known and has a good reputation.
US Airways I miss you!
 
DAL767400ER
Posts: 5084
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:54 pm

Interesting move, though just exactly how is Karstadt supposed to finance that deal? It's not like they have lots of money to spend currently.
 
acelanzarote
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:52 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
The German Handelsblatt reports that LH has apparently decided to sell off its 50% stake in Thomas Cook to Karstadt Quelle and to re-integrate Condor back fully into the Lufthansa Group. The deal is due to be closed within the coming weeks.

What affect would this have on Thomas Cook in the UK/Belgium?
Are they owned by the same company...

Interesting times ahead and possibly some different planes
to look for in the part of the world!

cheers
Keith
Lanzarote
Spain
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
 
acelanzarote
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:52 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 6):
Will Condor revert back to its old yellow colour scheme?

Have not some of the planes recently been painted Blue from Yellow.
Plus also A320 D-AICN has just jointed the fleet....

Who will operate planes for Karstadt then????

cheers
from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 14):
Have not some of the planes recently been painted Blue from Yellow.

Not really. Those planes had merely the taillogo and titles changed because they were painted before the re-branding to Thomas Cook powered by Condor, but then got the fuse titles changed back to Condor because the previous re-branding was a fiasco. The Condor brand is much stronger in Germany than anyone tends to think, which is why re-branding it didn't work. But I wonder that if DE is fully re-integrated back into the LH Group, if they'll at least revert their taillogo back to the old Condor bird.
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):
But I wonder that if DE is fully re-integrated back into the LH Group, if they'll at least revert their taillogo back to the old Condor bird.

I would hope so
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
flyinTLow
Posts: 459
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:40 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:38 am

do you think this would cause some changes to the fleet as well? If LH incorporates the fleet, i am pretty sure they aren't a huge fan of 2 aircraft types (757, 767) that they don't originally have in their fleet...
- When dreams take flight, follow them -
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 12):
how is Karstadt supposed to finance that deal? It's not like they have lots of money to spend currently.

I am not 100% sure but I think that I heard in the radio news a few weeks ago that Karstadt sold all their real estate to an American company, that should have filled up their bank accounts.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting FlyinTLow (Reply 17):
do you think this would cause some changes to the fleet as well? If LH incorporates the fleet, i am pretty sure they aren't a huge fan of 2 aircraft types (757, 767) that they don't originally have in their fleet...

That wasn't a problem before when DE was still fully owned by LH. In fact, sometime in the mid 90's LH even leased one of those DE 767s. And also, DE operated the DC-10 even after LH retired them. I believe they even got some ex LH aircraft. Lufthansa retired their trijets around 1992, while DE retired them sometime between 1999 and 2000.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:35 am

IIRC LH was very upset with DE starting low cost flights from MUC to various European cities. Maybe LH wanted to stop these guys potentially eroding LH´s yields.

If the airline will disappear, I´m sure the A320s will go to 4U or to LH, while the 753s and 763s will be sold, with a nice profit especially for the 763.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):
If the airline will disappear, I´m sure the A320s will go to 4U or to LH, while the 753s and 763s will be sold, with a nice profit especially for the 763.

I personally doubt DE will ever disappear. If, then they'll probably go back to what they were and focus almost exclusively on holiday flights.
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 8):
Yes, 'Thomas Cook' has been removed from the fuselage and replaced by 'Condor', but they still have the Thomas Cook colors, as well as the Thomas Cook logo on the tail.



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 15):
Not really. Those planes had merely the taillogo and titles changed because they were painted before the re-branding to Thomas Cook powered by Condor, but then got the fuse titles changed back to Condor because the previous re-branding was a fiasco. The Condor brand is much stronger in Germany than anyone tends to think, which is why re-branding it didn't work. But I wonder that if DE is fully re-integrated back into the LH Group, if they'll at least revert their taillogo back to the old Condor bird.

LTU is correct - The Thomas Cook name was changed back to Condor almost within a year of the change. Germans related more to Condor, and so it's Condor, powered by Thomas Cook.

This is all news to me about LH looking to sell, as they stated late last year they wanted to hold onto their stake, Now that TCAG is back in profit and has ambitions profit targets for the next few years, it's surprising LH is allegedly looking to drop out. TCUK alone this year is aiming for £100m profit in 2005/06!
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
User avatar
LH463
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:51 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:40 am

I think LH should just buy out all the airlines and even the German railway system (DB) and become a massive monopoly within the German transportation industry. Then without any competition they will be able to charge outrageous prices  Wink
Turning final...
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting TCXDegsy (Reply 22):
This is all news to me about LH looking to sell, as they stated late last year they wanted to hold onto their stake, Now that TCAG is back in profit and has ambitions profit targets for the next few years, it's surprising LH is allegedly looking to drop out. TCUK alone this year is aiming for £100m profit in 2005/06!

What about TCX Belgium, while we're at it?

I have a question, though slightly OT: I know that JMC Air was part of what Eventually became TCX UK, but how was it in the case of TCX Belgium? Was it an airline that was rebranded to TCX or simply a startup?
 
tcxdegsy
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
I have a question, though slightly OT: I know that JMC Air was part of what Eventually became TCX UK, but how was it in the case of TCX Belgium? Was it an airline that was rebranded to TCX or simply a startup?

TCX OT was a start-up as far as I know. It wasn't a rebrand.

Just a little clarification re JMC - it wasn't part of what became TCX. JMC was the complete Tour Operations name for the airline and tour operator. The airline in itself was borne out of Flying Colours ,Caledonian and Peach Air consolidation. The Tour Operator element was an amalgamation of Sunworld and Inspirations.

Everything became JMC.. and then everything became Thomas Cook, with the Tour Operator becoming Thomas Cook Tour Operations. Under this umbrella was launched the Thomas Cook brand, along with JMC and the re-born Sunset.

Since then, Thomas Cook Signature (which used to be part of the joint ventue with BA Holidays "Accoladia), has joined forces with Thomas Cook Tour Operations to become Thomas Cook Holidays Ltd.

Personally, don't be surprised if TCUk go on the acquisition trail soon. There are some market areas TCHolidays don't yet cover. There was talk of a purchase/merger with Kuoni a couple of years back. I wouldn't rule this out idea resurfacing in the future.

Sorry to go off on a tangent - here endeth the lesson!  Wink
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 24):
What about TCX Belgium, while we're at it?

They were a completely new enterprise, which received its AOC in March 2002.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:04 pm

Quoting Dj1986 (Reply 11):
I don't think LH would brand the short haul operations of DE into Germanwings because the Condor brand name is more widely known and has a good reputation.

How important is that?? Most passengers on board have booked some some sort package tour with some tour operator anyway. They have booked the tour and not the airline. I woul go as far as to say that most passengers don't know the airline until they show up an the airport and queue at the check-in counter ...
 
HMUcfm56
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:30 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:07 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 18):
I am not 100% sure but I think that I heard in the radio news a few weeks ago that Karstadt sold all their real estate to an American company, that should have filled up their bank accounts.

yep, they sold them for approx. 4,5 billion euros which made karstadt debtless.

I am sure there are "some millions" left after satisfying the creditors.
(regarding the article of the handelsblatt karstadt would pay "a mid to high triple-digit mln eur amount"...)
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:15 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 27):
How important is that?? Most passengers on board have booked some some sort package tour with some tour operator anyway. They have booked the tour and not the airline. I woul go as far as to say that most passengers don't know the airline until they show up an the airport and queue at the check-in counter ...

That's where you are totally wrong. As the "Thomas Koch powered by Condor" -disaster has proven, the typical German charter tourist shows an almost unhealthy obsession regarding the safety of their flights/ airline. When suddenly their trusted Condor dissapeared and some "shady, foreign airline" turned up in the catalogues, many customers declined from booking and instead went for the "trusted German names" like LTU, Hapag-Lloyd and Air Berlin.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Topic Author
Posts: 13075
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Lufthansa To Sell Thomas Cook

Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 27):
How important is that??

Brand recognition is very important. Like Tristar 500 and I mention, the Thomas Cook powered by Condor fiasco shows that people will not only choose the tour operator but also the brand of the airline. Currently the two oldest holiday airliners are LTU and Condor Flugdienst, and if either of them gets re-branded to something more foreign (HF being an exception because it still keeps part of the Hapag-Lloyd brand in its name), people will either wonder what happened to the other airline or they'll just book on something more familiar.

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 26):
They were a completely new enterprise, which received its AOC in March 2002.

Thanks for the info.