Summa767
Topic Author
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Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:13 pm

After a meeting with Colombia's vice-president, an Air Madrid representative announced that the colombian government was to ask its spanish counterpart to implement an open-skies policy between the 2 countries, hopefully before the year's end.

Air Madrid seems to be doing well on its colombian destinations. They said that they want to operate daily flights to Bogota, instead of the current 3 weekly frequencies, and that they would also serve other destinations in the country such as Cali and Medellin, and maybe San Andres Island.

Traffic between Colombia and Spain has been growing at a high rate in the last few years. 3 spanish airlines serve BOG: Iberia, Air Comet and Air Madrid (who also stops in CTG).
Avianca has been extending its services too, by serving Madrid from Cali. It will soon start BCN from BOG twice weekly (one of these flights will also stop at ALC)


Source (In spanish)
http://www.elcolombiano.terra.com.co...a_cielos_abiertos.asp?CodSeccion=4
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:18 pm

How many flights there are in Colombia-Spain route today?? With AVs new routes, CLO-MAD and BOG-BCN, I guess will be reaching an average of 3 daily flights (including numbers from Air Madrid, Air Comet and IB). Can pax numbers support more flights?? On the other hand, I haven't heard how's the CLO-MAD doing for AV?? I would think many pax from PEI and Armenia take this option, instead of coming to BOG.

Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Aisak
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
How many flights there are in Colombia-Spain route today??

The frequencies allowed by Colombia-Spain bilateral (highly restrictive)are almost fully covered.

For Colombia
Destination: MAD or BCN
- Up to 7x weekly (Avianca MAD-BOG)
- Up to 3x weekly if codeshared with Spanish airline (Avianca MAD-Cali c/s with Iberia)
- Up to 4x wekkly if one of the two legs is via Canarias or Alicante (those two BOG-ALC-MAD-BOG) mentioned above

For Spain
Destination BOG
- Up to 7x weekly (Iberia MAD-BOG)
- Up to 3x weekly if codeshared with Colombian airline (Air Plus MAD-BOG c/s with a Colombian airline i can't remember right now)
- Up to 3x wekkly if one of the two legs is via Cartagena de Indias, San Andrés Isla, Santa Marta or Armenia (Air Madrid MAD-CTG-BOG-MAD)

I think the only option available is for a Colombian airline to fly via Alicante or Canarias (2 more if the above ALC-BCN is launched)

[Edited 2006-04-24 21:20:24]
 
777jaah
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Aisak (Reply 2):
(Air Plus MAD-BOG c/s with a Colombian airline i can't remember right now)

IIRC, that one is P5. Anyway, don't quote me on this.


Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
IIRC, that one is P5. Anyway, don't quote me on this.

It is! Aerorepublica indeed.
Funny actually, as if you look in Amadeus, the P5 coded flights MAD-BOG-MAD appear as being operated non-stop with an MD81  

Quoting Aisak (Reply 2):
I think the only option available is for a Colombian airline to fly via Alicante or Canarias (2 more if the above ALC-BCN is launched

AV will use only one of the 4 available frequencies that require a stop, as one of the BCN flights will be non-stop IB codeshare.

The BCN flights start 15th June.

I guess that if the open skies becomes reality, the ALC stop will disappear.
Shame in a way. I notice that AV are advertising BCN as a new destination, but not ALC! It's not even listed on their reservations system. They are just treating it like an obligatory stop, when there is some catchment to be had there..

[Edited 2006-04-24 23:36:11]
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:09 am

I think thats good though if it happens maybe that will prevent AV or P5 form adding routes to other european nations.....
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Summa767 (Thread starter):
Air Madrid seems to be doing well on its colombian destinations. They said that they want to operate daily flights to Bogota, instead of the current 3 weekly frequencies, and that they would also serve other destinations in the country such as Cali and Medellin, and maybe San Andres Island.

That is, of course, if they can get their act together in the mean time. An on-time performance of 8% [yes, eight] and average delay-time of 3 and a half hours are figures that speak for themselves.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
Can pax numbers support more flights?

They sure can. Service between Colombia and Europe is still extremely limited, and the existing flights are going out nearly full even on low-season.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
On the other hand, I haven't heard how's the CLO-MAD doing for AV??

Surprisingly well. Cali has shown an amazing response to the dedicated nonstop service to Madrid.

The fact that the flight originates in Bogota means that AV can more easily fill the plane, but naturally, high-yielding passengers tend to take the nonstop BOG-MAD flights, whereas the lower-yielding types are routed through CLO.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 1):
I would think many pax from PEI and Armenia take this option, instead of coming to BOG.

It depends. There is an evident lack of air-connections between Pereira/Armenia and Cali [excluding one daily flight by Aires from PEI], whereas these cities are very well-linked to Bogota, and even better, on Avianca. It would be logical to think that the CLO-MAD service is a niche service dedicated for serving the strong local demand between the Cali/Palmira region and Spain.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 6):
That is, of course, if they can get their act together in the mean time. An on-time performance of 8% [yes, eight] and average delay-time of 3 and a half hours are figures that speak for themselves.

That is appalling! I certainly hope that they improve on this front. Air Madrid have tried to cover too much with a small fleet. I trust that they won't let their success slip by letting their reputation be damaged beyond repair. They have already given way on the food onboard, which is now included at no extra cost. People are prepared to be forgiving to save €100, but the honeymoon may not last forever.

I liked Air Madrid mentioning MDE as a possible destination. Yet, I would not fly them if it were in place today for fear of missing my connecting flight from MAD to LON.
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 7):
That is appalling! I certainly hope that they improve on this front. Air Madrid have tried to cover too much with a small fleet. I trust that they won't let their success slip by letting their reputation be damaged beyond repair. They have already given way on the food onboard, which is now included at no extra cost. People are prepared to be forgiving to save €100, but the honeymoon may not last forever.

I liked Air Madrid mentioning MDE as a possible destination. Yet, I would not fly them if it were in place today for fear of missing my connecting flight from MAD to LON.

intresting that NM no gives the food free of extra charge....


If they would serve MDE it would be a success for them, but only if they would get more aircrafts and stop the problems with the delays (that are often very big 24hours etc....) + they need a better conections to Europe destinations, the new short-haul flights from them are not very good linked to the long-haul flights.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 8):
If they would serve MDE it would be a success for them

Who knows. I have always wondered if there really is a strong-enough demand to support a dedicated flight from Medellin to Spain.

CLO-MAD has been performing amazingly well, but it is still understandable given that a greater population from the Cali-Palmira area migrated to Europe, whereas people from Medellin did so to the United States, at least more visibly.

One or two weekly flights stopping in Cartagena on the way out could probably do fine for starters.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 9):
CLO-MAD has been performing amazingly well, but it is still understandable given that a greater population from the Cali-Palmira area migrated to Europe, whereas people from Medellin did so to the United States, at least more visibly.

I am not sure if more people from Cali area migrated to Europe than from Medellin area, I would say it is nearly the same.... for germany it may even that the Paisa population is much higher compared to the Caleños.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 10):
I am not sure if more people from Cali area migrated to Europe than from Medellin area, I would say it is nearly the same

I'll put it this way: when AV studied the possibility of flying to Spain from secondary cities in Colombia, they considered the two largest population areas from where people migrated: those were Cali/Yumbo/Palmira, and the Coffee Region [Pereira/Armenia]. Medellin was never mentioned.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 11):
I'll put it this way: when AV studied the possibility of flying to Spain from secondary cities in Colombia, they considered the two largest population areas from where people migrated: those were Cali/Yumbo/Palmira, and the Coffee Region [Pereira/Armenia]. Medellin was never mentioned.

I lived over 20 years in Europe and with my colombian root, I know very good the colombian community in Europe. So I have my personal experience.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 12):
I lived over 20 years in Europe and with my colombian root, I know very good the colombian community in Europe.

I hope all the 500,000 Colombians in Spain are friendly to you, now that you know them so well.

Just kidding, of course your experience counts, but I rather stick to facts, and Avianca couldn't be so dumb as to not see that MDE has a certain potential, if it ever existed. If they went after Cali it's because the market there was bigger or more promising, regardless of your experience.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 13):
I hope all the 500,000 Colombians in Spain are friendly to you, now that you know them so well.

Just kidding, of course your experience counts, but I rather stick to facts, and Avianca couldn't be so dumb as to not see that MDE has a certain potential, if it ever existed. If they went after Cali it's because the market there was bigger or more promising, regardless of your experience.

 Big grin well I think Cali had better cards for the europe flights, as more international companys are located in Cali. regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
as more international companys are located in Cali. regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.

It amazes me you mention "international companies" as a determining factor of the CLO-MAD route, when Cali's industry is down the drain day-by-day. Plus, what business traffic would AV be capturing if they fly only 2 times per week? Business travelers are the ones who need the most felxibility, and 2 weekly services are certainly not what they expect or want.

In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 14):
regarding VFR MDE should be stronger.

"Should"? I invite you to show me where does MDE beat CLO in yielding over 35,000 yearly passengers to Spain.

I'm waiting...


SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

not sure with this, specially imports of industrial goods, pharmaceuticals etc are stronger to CLO than to MDE from Europe.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
"Should"? I invite you to show me where does MDE beat CLO in yielding over 35,000 yearly passengers to Spain.

source for the 35.000.

regards
Avianca
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 16):
source for the 35.000.

You usually don't answer a question with another question. But if you insist:

Aeronautica Civil.

Routes from Colombia to Europe during 2005:

- Bogota-Madrid-Bogota 278,253 passengers moved with a 42% growth from 2004
- Bogota-Paris-Bogota 142,230 passengers moved with a 28% growth from 2004
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.




Your turn... and "personal experience" doesn't count.  Yeah sure



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Summa767
Topic Author
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:59 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.

Thank you for sharing these figures!
I do think that in Spain there are a lot of Colombian that originate from Cali and Pereira areas. Same is true of teh UK. I guess that it may be different in Grmany.
However, these figures, in particular those of CTG-MAD-CTG, -ith the 86% growth- go to show that increasing supply encourages demand. it is not just the otherway round. So maybe a non-stop flight to MDE, twice a week as you said even with a stop in CTG- might pay off. Pereira and Armenia would be higher in the pecking order, but since it is not techically possible to do that at the moment, those will have to wait.

CLO is not too bad for people going to PEI area and surrounds, as the drive is quite doable.
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 18):
However, these figures, in particular those of CTG-MAD-CTG, -ith the 86% growth- go to show that increasing supply encourages demand. it is not just the otherway round.

True, and consider that AirMadrid, the main carrier involved in this CTG-MAD activity, went from stopping twice in CTG [both on the way in and the way out], to just one stop, making the MAD-BOG segment nonstop. Theoretically, that could have influenced negatively in the market's growth, but it didn't.

So far this year, the market between CTG and MAD has shrank a bit compared to the same period of the past year, but nothing extraordinary. It should be expected to see a natural increase in traffic begining in June.




SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 01, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
In this respect I absolutely disagree with you. Business traffic has never been determining for routes between Spain and Colombia, and IF there was any demand for business traveling from Spain out of BOG, it's to MDE, far more indutrialized than CLO.

depands on what industrie, + dont forget Cali has some big international companies located, Bayer to mention 1 for example.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 17):
You usually don't answer a question with another question. But if you insist:

Aeronautica Civil.

Routes from Colombia to Europe during 2005:

- Bogota-Madrid-Bogota 278,253 passengers moved with a 42% growth from 2004
- Bogota-Paris-Bogota 142,230 passengers moved with a 28% growth from 2004
- Cali-Madrid-Cali 34,083 passengers moved with a 33,58% growth from 2004
- Cartagena-Madrid-Cartagena 19,997 passengers moved with a 86% growth from 2004.

Your turn... and "personal experience" doesn't count.

thats the numbers of passengers moved on the flights or? This numbers do not show the O&D of the markets, so the 35000 passengers do not say a lot of the situation witch city is stronger for airtravel to spain/europe.


to get a correct source regarding the O&D traffic should not be easy, but I am searching.

AVIANCA
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 01, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 20):
This numbers do not show the O&D of the markets, so the 35000 passengers do not say a lot of the situation witch city is stronger for airtravel to spain/europe.

Oh boy, I never thought that I could ever hear such a ridiculous, hard-headed comment here. When you have no arguments to continue discussing something, just accept it instead of making a total fool of yourself.

Good luck searching for other numbers, you won't find them, or at least not as reliable as the ones given by the Aerocivil, the maximun aviation authority in the country. Cali-Madrid is the second largest O&D market between Colombia and Spain according to official statistics. Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 01, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Oh boy, I never thought that I could ever hear such a ridiculous, hard-headed comment here. When you have no arguments to continue discussing something, just accept it instead of making a total fool of yourself.

1. a typical arrogant reply from our friend SOUTHAMERICA.
2. name if you whant yourself boy, but not me.
3. Nice to have at least 1 small commonality with you, to be a FOOL, not such big as you but on the right way ....

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Good luck searching for other numbers, you won't find them, or at least not as reliable as the ones given by the Aerocivil, the maximun aviation authority in the country. Cali-Madrid is the second largest O&D market between Colombia and Spain according to official statistics. Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.

I can not see that your numbers from Aerocivil are O&D.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 01, 2006 4:05 am

When you learn to write in decent, understandable English I'll continue with pleasure. The only things I understood were "friend" and "SOUTHAMERICA".

I repeat:

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 21):
Whether you or your personal experience agree or not is a completely different story, but facts are facts and there's no more to discuss there.

S.

[Edited 2006-04-30 21:07:33]
 
Avianca
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 01, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
When you learn to write in decent, understandable English I'll continue with pleasure. The only things I understood were "friend" and "SOUTHAMERICA".

I repeat:

use

http://world.altavista.com/

there you can translate my post.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
clo1973
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Sat May 06, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):
It amazes me you mention "international companies" as a determining factor of the CLO-MAD route, when Cali's industry is down the drain day-by-day

Cali`s industry is down the drain day-by-day???? I`m amaze of such a statement, so please (and since you are a fact-guy) let me give you some facts....

- Many international companies have plants or even their headquarters located in Cali. Just to name a few, Colgate Palmolive, Johnson & Johnson, Baxter, Smurfit, Cadbury Adams, Pfizer, Corn Products International, Kraft, Unilever, Bayer, Michelin, Goodyear, Reckitt Benckiser, Sanofi, Tate & Lyle etc. Not to mention big local companies with headquarters in Cali, like Carvajal, Tecnoquimicas, Propal, Colombina, Centelsa etc.

- Yes, we have lost some industries just like any other big city (including Medellin) due to regionalization. Gillette took off in year 2000, Eveready, Schneider, Wyeth and Bristol Myers too. Nevertheless, many others have centralized their production for the Andean Region (or increase exports to other latin countries) in Cali. For instance, 80% of the production output of Cadbury Adams`Cali plant goes overseas, as well as 50% of Johnson & Johnson and Pfizer`s output ...just to give you a few examples.

- Cali continues to atract international companies. In the last 6 years Kimberly Clark built its biggest South america plant 10 kms south of Cali. Bonlam Andina, Drypers, Omnilife and Owens Illinois also build plants here.

- Michelin just invested US$12 millions to produce their most advanced tires in the Cali plant, Goodyear is investing US$ 50 million to manufacture radial tires in Cali, Omnilife is investing US$ 7 million in a Liquids plant, and MAC (a local producer of car batteries) is increasing plant capacity by a factor of 3 with an investment of US$ 20 millions. Oh, and I forgot to mention that Bavaria is building its new plant just outside Cali with an investment of US$ 100 millions.

Do you still consider that Cali`s industry is down the drain? it is not luck the fact that Cali has Colombia`s second busiest airport (in terms of passengers) with 2.1 millions of passengers (2005)
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Sat May 06, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 25):
Cali`s industry is down the drain day-by-day???? I`m amaze of such a statement, so please (and since you are a fact-guy) let me give you some facts....

They may have a couple of plants but the big industries are in BOG and MDE....
 
Southamerica
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Sun May 07, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 25):
Cali`s industry is down the drain day-by-day???? I`m amaze of such a statement

Well, honestly, it shouldn't amaze you, because it's not me, it's a popular belief. It's actually funny to see you pretending to change that through one post, when public perception in the country tells that Cali is a city in crisis, both economically and socially.

It's no secret that Cali is the city that has suffered the most because of narco-activities and its subsequent poorness, and unfortunately, beside all these multinational factories located in the outskirts of Cali you still find plenty of amazingly luxurious country-houses were these drug-lords vacate during holidays and take a breath of the misery they've caused to Cali itself.

It is not surprising that many international companies still choose the Cali area to build their plants. After all, the region has no geographical obstacles whatsoever. On the other hand, urbanism authorities have strictly limited the growth of industries within the Medellin valley, and have forced several existing factories to move out and re-locate their production plants elsewhere, like Pintuco for instance.

Still, of Colombia's ten biggest enterprises, three were born and are still based here in Medellin, stand among the country's most profitable companies, and the other seven are basically multinational companies and/or enterprises located in Bogota.

Cali, on the other hand, stands behind with Emcali as the city's biggest local representative, which is laughable to say the least, as you should know by far how well are the words Emcali and corruption related.

Still, I do give you credit for all the data given in your post. But as this is an aviation forum, let's extrapolate your information and see if it does match with numbers in aviation:

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 25):
Do you still consider that Cali`s industry is down the drain? it is not luck the fact that Cali has Colombia`s second busiest airport (in terms of passengers) with 2.1 millions of passengers (2005)

It is no luck either that Medellin is the only city in the country able to successfully support two airports with active commercial service.

MDE, alone, is right behind CLO with more than 2 millions moved during 2005. Of course, if you add the 656,000 passengers moved by EOH, you get that the city of Medellin generated almost 2,7 million passengers during 2005, while Cali only 2,1, as you mentioned.

In terms of international passengers, MDE moved 423,871 passengers during 2005, while Cali moved 406,429.

In terms of cargo, where ironically Cali should be leading if exports are really as active and profitable as you mention, Medellin wins again, and by far.

Of all international cargo routes out of Colombia, BOG-MIA-BOG takes the first place with 236,366 tons moved during 2005, and MDE-MIA-MDE comes second with 78,948 tons moved during the same year, representing 14% of the total international air-cargo.

CLO-MIA-CLO, on the other hand, moved 19,152 tons during the same year.

In domestic cargo, the most important route was BOG-BAQ-BOG, then BOG-MDE-BOG with 21,423 tons moved during 2005. BOG-CLO-BOG moved 15,812 tons during the same period.

Enough. My initial intention was to point out that if AV decided to launch a dedicated CLO-MAD-CLO operation it was basically because the O&D between Cali and Spain is much bigger than from Medellin. Otherwise AV would have simply started it from MDE.

But now that you decided to touch the industrial level, I do admire your will to discuss in favor of your city's financial and industrial situation. Sincerely, at least in aviation, numbers don't support the position you give Cali as the second most active industrial city in Colombia. Good luck changing people's vision towards your city, meanwhile we continue to find public reports and campaigns promoting Cali all over the place. They usually show the need to change an image.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
clo1973
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 08, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Well, honestly, it shouldn't amaze you, because it's not me, it's a popular belief. It's actually funny to see you pretending to change that through one post, when public perception in the country tells that Cali is a city in crisis, both economically and socially.

Let me tell you one thing about "public perception", some public is sometimes ignorant of the facts and they just rely in what the media wants to let them know . What is the public perception of Colombia as a country in United States, Europe or Asia? average people will tell you that we are a country of drug dealers, thieves and guerrillas, do you think that is what we are?..I´m pretty sure that we both agree we are not.

Crisis in Cali or Colombia, is there, but it is not everything, and sometimes things happen but most people don´t even realized that they happen.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
Still, of Colombia's ten biggest enterprises, three were born and are still based here in Medellin, stand among the country's most profitable companies, and the other seven are basically multinational companies and/or enterprises located in Bogota.

Cali, on the other hand, stands behind with Emcali as the city's biggest local representative, which is laughable to say the least, as you should know by far how well are the words Emcali and corruption related.

Let me give you a broader view, out of Colombia´s 200 biggest companies, 28 are located in Medellin and its surroundings and 27 in Cali and its outskirts (Cambio Magazine). With respect to Emcali, thanks god (and the government) the company is in the other side, with its P&G in a healthy black ink in the last two years.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
In terms of cargo, where ironically Cali should be leading if exports are really as active and profitable as you mention, Medellin wins again, and by far.

Of all international cargo routes out of Colombia, BOG-MIA-BOG takes the first place with 236,366 tons moved during 2005, and MDE-MIA-MDE comes second with 78,948 tons moved during the same year, representing 14% of the total international air-cargo.

CLO-MIA-CLO, on the other hand, moved 19,152 tons during the same year.

In domestic cargo, the most important route was BOG-BAQ-BOG, then BOG-MDE-BOG with 21,423 tons moved during 2005. BOG-CLO-BOG moved 15,812 tons during the same period.

Your analisis is good but misleading. You can´t use cargo figures without further analysis to have a conclusion about industrial activity, and I will explain you why:

- Medellin´s cargo shipped through the airport is basically flowers (I would guess about 60-80% of total tonnage), because speed is key for that product to be in the international markets with the apropriate "freshness". Cali, on the other side its located 130 kms away from Colombia´s main sea port, and this type of transport or trucks is perfectly suitable for moving the kind of goods produced in this area (as well as for most of the products manufactured in the Medellin area). For most of our products, air cargo makes no economical sense.

- Bogota´s airport is South America´s first air cargo terminal (again, flowers play a big role). Do you honestly believe that Bogota has more economical activity than Sao Paulo or Buenos Aires?. As you even point it out, BOG - BAQ -BOG is Colombia´s most important air cargo route, do you think that industry in Barranquilla is greater than that of Medellin or Cali?

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 27):
But now that you decided to touch the industrial level, I do admire your will to discuss in favor of your city's financial and industrial situation. Sincerely, at least in aviation, numbers don't support the position you give Cali as the second most active industrial city in Colombia

You missed my point, I didn´t say that Cali is the second most active industrial city in Colombia. My statement and data is clear in showing you that your post "Cali´s industry is down the drain..." is inaccurate.

I highly respect what Medellin and Cali have accomplished (in terms of economical development) in a country that tends to centralize everything in its capital. I highly respect people in Medellin, because they were the ones that initiate industry in Colombia in the beginning of the twentieth century. I highly respect Medellin´s companies, they are exemplary in their fields. But also keep in mind one thing, industrial output in Cali and its outskirts (Yumbo, Palmira, Caloto, Santander de Quilichao) is not that far below (if it is not the same) than that of Medellin - Valle de Aburra - Rionegro.
 
Summa767
Topic Author
Posts: 1751
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 08, 2006 10:44 pm

Hey guys,

I am not about to enter the debate. But just want to say that you have both made some good points, and that this debate has been good to read.
 
RICARIZA
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:56 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 08, 2006 11:54 pm

Clo1973, Welcome to A.NET!
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2298
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue May 09, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 28):
Let me tell you one thing about "public perception", some public is sometimes ignorant of the facts and they just rely in what the media wants to let them know .

I agree to some extent. Still, things are not that easy. I do agree that the biased media is a relatively valid excuse for Americans or Europeans; after all, it would be very pretentious to expect them to come here to just check if what they are told is true or not.

However, within the country, where all of us are covered by the same social reality, you do catch a deeper idea of particular situations between different regions, and the media is most certainly not a requisite to create a public perception. Whether it sounds rhetorical or not, your own eyes, your own experiences and the testimonies of those close to you are more than enough most of the times, and it would be false to deny that, unfortunately, since several years we've been experiencing nothing but an overwhelmingly high flow of negative information about Cali.

Does it happen in other cities as well? Of course. Now I ask, where are the bigger, brighter things that compete with the bad side of the scene, like it happens in Bogota for instance? Why is it that we can't see them happen in Cali, and instead we do see an over-dose of Feria del Libro, Festival Iberoamericano de Teatro, a materialised TransMilenio, MetroCable, wide cultural programs like Medellin City, and instead, the last thing that we heard about a public event in Cali was the horse-ride disaster of the last Feria de Cali?. Does it have to do with the media wanting us to not see them as well?

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 28):
Your analisis is good but misleading.

Not to throw the ball back to you, but it is just as misleading as your "it is not luck the fact that Cali has Colombia`s second busiest airport (in terms of passengers) with 2.1 millions of passengers (2005)" is. At least we are discussing in equal terms.

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 28):
You missed my point, I didn´t say that Cali is the second most active industrial city in Colombia. My statement and data is clear in showing you that your post "Cali´s industry is down the drain..." is inaccurate.

Point taken then, I'm not as hard-headed to not accept these things when they come from someone more educated in the topic than I am. After all, it's interesting to see someone actually refusing the things you say, and retorting back with hard facts, it makes for interesting debates. I'm all ears for more discussions about related topics.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Tue May 09, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 31):
I'm all ears for more discussions about related topics.

The main thing here is that AV is doing great MAD route. I also think that if MED needs a flight to MAD sure AV will try in the future to have a nonstop one (of course, if they can under the current agreement with the spanish govt). I'm sure AV did the numbers and decided CLO was a better choice than MED in their own opinion. Does anyone has load factors for that route without the pax coming from BOG??


Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
clo1973
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Fri May 12, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 31):
Does it happen in other cities as well? Of course. Now I ask, where are the bigger, brighter things that compete with the bad side of the scene, like it happens in Bogota for instance? Why is it that we can't see them happen in Cali, and instead we do see an over-dose of Feria del Libro, Festival Iberoamericano de Teatro, a materialised TransMilenio, MetroCable, wide cultural programs like Medellin City, and instead, the last thing that we heard about a public event in Cali was the horse-ride disaster of the last Feria de Cali?. Does it have to do with the media wanting us to not see them as well?

Last saturday, an entire street (Av. Novena Norte, in the neighborhood of Granada) very well known in Cali because many fine restaurants are located along it, was closed; Restaurants´ owners organized cooking and fashion shows, wineries showed their products and gave conferences, critics gave their views in food trends etc; As a matter of fact, a very well known restaurant critic that writes in the newspaper EL TIEMPO, considers Cali the second best place for fine-dinning in the country after Bogota.

Every two years Cali hosts FESTIVAL DEL ARTE which among many activities gives a prize of US$ 30.000 for an outstanding Latin american writter (very much like a nobel). This is a very well known prize among writters due to the amount of money involved, and many of the ones who has earned are Principe de Asturias winners (the most respected prize for a hispanic writter).

I´m pretty sure you didn´t know about this, and the reason is that somehow colombian media have not paid as much attention to these events as they have done it with similar things in other places. Very much like one of 2005´s issues of National Geographic Magazine that focused in the dark side of Medellin; Natgeo didn´t write lies about Medellin, but its article was biased, because they didn´t mentioned the other side....the bright one!.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 32):
Does anyone has load factors for that route without the pax coming from BOG??

Load factors for the period January - March were about 80%. Very succesful route for Avianca indeed.
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Fri May 12, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 33):
Load factors for the period January - March were about 80%. Very succesful route for Avianca indeed.

Any adittional discussion about the convenience of having or if AV made the right decision to operate the route from CLO instead of MED is really behind if this number is true. The discussion should be directed if MED would have that kinf of numbers if another frequency could be granted for any carrier, bc as far as it goes, 80% of a load factor is REALLY succesfull for any carrier. I'm almost certain that yields are not that bad for AV also. IMHO, I think MED is as good as a market as CLO for MAD, but due to the lack of a real way to know that (not having MED-MAD nonstop), we must wait and see.............

I know this is off topic, but if i'm not wrong, AA first started service to BOG and CLO and few years later went for MED. Was this bc of rights or they just decided to try CLO first before expanding their operation in Colombia??


Good luck.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
clo1973
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Sun May 14, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
I know this is off topic, but if i'm not wrong, AA first started service to BOG and CLO and few years later went for MED. Was this bc of rights or they just decided to try CLO first before expanding their operation in Colombia??

You are right, AA first went to BOG, CLO and BAQ. They started MED after further negotiation between US and Colombian air authorities for flying rights between both countries.

Actually AA is the first American airline to fly to MED. Before AA, Eastern and Braniff operated routes between USA and Colombia but again just to BOG and CLO. My guess is they did this because CLO has more international companies (specially americans) located in the city and outskirts thus besides the O&D market you also have the business travellers; I also heard a couple of times that Avianca (and later Aces) lobby to try to keep any american airline away from MDE...it seems it worked for some years, until market realities put pressure in the government to open MDE´s market to foreign competition.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3645
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Sun May 14, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 33):
Last saturday, an entire street (Av. Novena Norte, in the neighborhood of Granada) very well known in Cali because many fine restaurants are located along it, was closed; Restaurants´ owners organized cooking and fashion shows,



Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 33):
Every two years Cali hosts FESTIVAL DEL ARTE

Well, this kinds of stuff happen all the time, at least, in Bogota. A couple of cultural events doesn´t mean the city is progressing, and Cali is going backwards, while Bogota and Medellin are developing. That doesnt mean there is less O/D for international flights, given the huge number of migrants from the city.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
Any adittional discussion about the convenience of having or if AV made the right decision to operate the route from CLO instead of MED

Please, i beg you to stop writing MED! Its MDE, thank you... Smile

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 34):
, I think MED is as good as a market as CLO for MAD,

Actually, MDE is a very small market to Europe. The big markets are BOG, CLO and PEI (for the whole coffee zone).
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 36):
doesnt

Please I beg you it's DOESN'T.............chill out man, not everyone is perfect.
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2298
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 35):
You are right, AA first went to BOG, CLO and BAQ. They started MED after further negotiation between US and Colombian air authorities for flying rights between both countries.

Actually, AA opted to change BAQ for MDE. They probably would have liked to continue operating both stations, but in view that they could only choose between one of them, they obviously chose the most promising one. I understand AA also had a series of problems with local staff in Barranquilla.

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 35):
My guess is they did this because CLO has more international companies (specially americans) located in the city and outskirts thus besides the O&D market you also have the business travellers

My guess is they did this because neither Avianca nor Aces were comitted with Cali to the level of providing a decent service to the United States according to the demand. For starters, Avianca only offered a one-stop service from Cali to Miami via Barranquilla for many years, which is laughable to say the least.

MDE, despite having no service by American carriers for years, did have at least three daily flights to Miami consistently operated throughout many years by Aces and Avianca, even when AA had already arrived.

Needless to say, history is history, and until very recently both MDE and CLO had the exact same number of regular seats to Miami: one daily 757 by AV and one daily 757 by AA. Still, during 2005, MDE moved 20,000 passengers more to Miami than Cali did, unless passengers are being shipped through Buenaventura as well  Wink

Naturally, according to demand, AA downgraded Cali from 757 to 738 service several months ago.

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 35):
I also heard a couple of times that Avianca (and later Aces) lobby to try to keep any american airline away from MDE...it seems it worked for some years, until market realities put pressure in the government to open MDE´s market to foreign competition.

True. Though it would have been marvelous if foreign competition meant either lower fares, or superior quality. In our case, it didn't. AA's service doesn't even come close to what ACES used to offer in its two daily Medellin-Miami flights, not even to Avianca. Call me close-minded, but I would obviously prefer it to be VX vs. AV, like it was four years ago, instead of AA vs. AV like it is now; especially knowing that fares didn't even drop one miserable dollar like they should have when AA arrived to Medellin  Yeah sure



SOUTHAMERICA
 
a300aa
Posts: 298
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RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 38):
AA's service doesn't even come close to what ACES used to offer in its two daily Medellin-Miami flights, not even to Avianca. Call me close-minded

Obviously, and see where they are right now.........

One, disappear and the other under foreign investors.

They had to lower their costs to compete, otherwise they will shut down.
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3645
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 37):
Please I beg you it's DOESN'T.............chill out man, not everyone is perfect.

God you chill out, the happy face at the end meant it was just a funny suggestion...
 
bogota
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:10 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 38):
Naturally, according to demand, AA downgraded Cali from 757 to 738 service several months ago.

This is true, especially when they took into consideration that CO began direct CLO-IAH flights.
 
Southamerica
Posts: 2298
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:56 am

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Mon May 15, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting A300AA (Reply 39):
Obviously, and see where they are right now...

As if having a sense of customer service was what made them go under  Yeah sure. The astronomical fees they were paying for their aircraft had absolutely nothing to do with the pricesless attention provided onboard. Details were the added value that made the experience with them worth it, independent of the situation they were facing economically.

Quoting A300AA (Reply 39):
They had to lower their costs to compete, otherwise they will shut down.

Actually, they basically cut costs in domestic operations; after all, most of the intra-Colombian routes are pretty doable with a single beverage service. The international service pretty much has remained unchanged.

Quoting Bogota (Reply 41):
This is true, especially when they took into consideration that CO began direct CLO-IAH flights.

Yes, and precisely now that you bring it up, it happened to CO as well that they had to drastically reduce their frequencies to only 3x weekly off-season on a service that was originally projected to be daily, also according to demand. Sincerely don't know what were they expecting.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
clo1973
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 pm

RE: Spain And Colombia Towards Open Skies

Wed May 17, 2006 1:28 pm

Actually , since the very beginning CO´s press announcement stated they would go for daily service in peak season (like they just did from early december to late january) and 3x weekly off season. Strategy that CO´s has applied in some other markets ...