iluv2pilot
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Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:53 am

Kudos to LoneStarMike at another Blog for pulling data that shows exactly why WN will never give up the fight at DAL. This data is exactly why:

Actually, there is an easy way to compare WN's taxi-in times to those of other airlines at the same airport.

Go to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics website. Scroll down a little ways to the summary statistics section. Choose Destination Airport.

When the next page loads, enter the desired airport, airline (Southwest) and the start and end dates from the drop-down tables and then submit.

The table that comes up will show you (among other things) the average taxi-in time among all carriers at the airport and the average taxi-in time of all WN flights.

Compare DAL's all/WN's taxi-in times to DFW's all/AA's taxi-in times

DAL - 3.10 (All) - 3.03 (WN)
DFW - 11.42 (All) - 12.88 (AA)

If you want to check taxi-out times, go back to the summary section and choose origin airport instead of destination airport and repeat the above process.

Here's how DAL's and DFW's taxi-out times compare

DAL - 8.76 (All) - 8.34 (WN)
DFW - 17.35 (All) - 17.35 (AA)

On average, a plane doing a turn at DFW has 16.91 more minutes of taxi time getting to its gate and back to the runway than a plane doing a turn at Love Field. Multiply that extra 16.91 minutes per turn by 120 turns per day (what WN currently does at DAL) and that's nearly 34 additional hours of fuel-burning taxi-time per day to offer the same number of flights out of DFW.

This is exactly why Southwest wants to stay at DAL.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Iluv2pilot (Thread starter):
On average, a plane doing a turn at DFW has 16.91 more minutes of taxi time getting to its gate and back to the runway than a plane doing a turn at Love Field. Multiply that extra 16.91 minutes per turn by 120 turns per day (what WN currently does at DAL) and that's nearly 34 additional hours of fuel-burning taxi-time per day to offer the same number of flights out of DFW.

This is exactly why Southwest wants to stay at DAL.

That's exactly why smaller, close-in airports are some the best airports in WN's system. It's also the best part of their business plan, in my opinion. I can't believe AA has brainwashed most of the Metroplex into buying their "stance" on Wright! It's not even like you can fly anywhere in the world from DFW, anyway. I love AA, but come on! Show a little honesty here! Arpey wouldn't be crucified if he called Wright wrong!
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting Iluv2pilot (Thread starter):
On average, a plane doing a turn at DFW has 16.91 more minutes of taxi time getting to its gate and back to the runway than a plane doing a turn at Love Field. Multiply that extra 16.91 minutes per turn by 120 turns per day (what WN currently does at DAL) and that's nearly 34 additional hours of fuel-burning taxi-time per day to offer the same number of flights out of DFW.

This is due to an airfield with insufficient crossing points. If you have dual taxiways between each terminal you don't have to taxi around terminals to get to the right side of the airfield. Building a cross field terminal for Southwest on the south end of the field (South of A or demo E and build it north of B), and American on the north end (North of Y) will cut these times by as much as 60%. Everyone else will still be taxiing around, but they won't have to taxi through the AA bottleneck. DFW has a poor layout for a hub airport, but that's easily corrected.

[Edited 2006-04-25 04:28:51]
 
commavia
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:31 am

Just out of curiosity, what are the taxi-in/-out times at DEN, FLL, PHL, IAD and LAX?
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:41 am

Thanks for the shout-out.  

The Bureau of Transportation Statistics website is also useful in determining Southwest's overall load factors at individual airports. It doesn't tell you load factor on individual routes, but using this formula can give you a general idea what percentages of the flights have butts-in-seats. Kind of like an average load factor.

You first need to know how many passengers WN carried out of a particular airport. Not all airports break this info down in their monthly activity reports, but some like DAL and AUS do. Sometimes the info might be mentioned in a newspaper story like WN's totals at DEN were recently.

Love Field's monthly traffic statistics are on this page. For February, 2006 they show Southwest having flown 455,450 passengers in and out of DAL.

Once you know the passenger count, go the the BTS website and look at the summary statistics for WN at that airport for whatever date range,

Look at WN in DAL for 02-01-2006 through 02-28-2006. Looking at Origin Airport will give you the number of departures for the month and looking at destination airport will give you the number of arrivals for the month.

WN had 3078 departures and 3078 arrivals at DAL in February for a total of 6,156 flights.

Multiply 6,156 flights times 137 (seats on each plane) and you come up with 843,372 available seats for the month. (Yes, I know Southwest has 25 735's that seat 122, but statistically those don't make much of a difference.

Number of passengers flown (455,450) divided available seats (843,372) equals WN's avg. load factor (54.00%)

In comparision, WN's system-wide load factor in Feb. was 68.5%. Had WN's loads at an unrestricted DAL been more in line with the rest of the system, they would have carried 577,709 passengers.

WN's Jan. avg. load factor at Love Field was even worse.at 46.58%

WN has a lot of potential at Love Field if restrictions are ever lifted. They could do it from DFW but the costs of the move, the extra ground time (and time spent wasting fuel), as well as other fAActors, make Love Field the better choice for WN.

LoneStarMike

[Edited 2006-04-25 05:08:19]

 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
Just out of curiosity, what are the taxi-in/-out times at DEN, FLL, PHL, IAD and LAX?

Outside of taxi times, you also must consider other airport costs such as DAL's rock-bottom landing fees and affordable lease rates. DFW's half-hearted efforts at "free rent" don't come close to the cost structure WN has built at DAL.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
Building a cross field terminal for Southwest on the south end of the field (South of A or demo E and build it north of B), and American on the north end (North of Y) will cut these times by as much as 60%.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0602/06039AD.PDF

Looking at DFW layouts, I don't quite understand what you are suggesting. Would such a terminal be located near the hold pads at the corners of the central terminal area?
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:12 pm

With such a great deal for Southwest I wonder what will happen when all those other airlines move in once Wright is repealed? More traffic slower turn times. There goes the neighborhood.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 6):
With such a great deal for Southwest I wonder what will happen when all those other airlines move in once Wright is repealed?

You can name the carriers interested in establishing a DAL station once the W.A. is repealed on a single hand. As a hint, the only significant one is already back at DAL...
 
steeler83
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
That's exactly why smaller, close-in airports are some the best airports in WN's system. It's also the best part of their business plan, in my opinion. I can't believe AA has brainwashed most of the Metroplex into buying their "stance" on Wright! It's not even like you can fly anywhere in the world from DFW, anyway. I love AA, but come on! Show a little honesty here! Arpey wouldn't be crucified if he called Wright wrong!

Thank you USPIT10L! I never cared for Wright either, and here's another reason to dislike it. I was all for WN moving into DFW if they could not fight Wright, but if they're going to waste fuel on the ground in such slow taxi times, they might as well not even hedge (exaggeration here). Thanks for giving me, as well as the rest of us a different perspective here on why Wright is Wrong...

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 6):
With such a great deal for Southwest I wonder what will happen when all those other airlines move in once Wright is repealed? More traffic slower turn times. There goes the neighborhood.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
You can name the carriers interested in establishing a DAL station once the W.A. is repealed on a single hand. As a hint, the only significant one is already back at DAL...

I agree with DfwRevolution here. Sorry cj, but if you consider how many gates are at DAL and how many of those WN operates, how many more carriers are going to go there? If AA is smart they'd back out of that financial balck hole and retreat back to DFW. Along with their finances, their credibility is flowing right into that vacuum as well...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
This is due to an airfield with insufficient crossing points. If you have dual taxiways between each terminal you don't have to taxi around terminals to get to the right side of the airfield. Building a cross field terminal for Southwest on the south end of the field (South of A or demo E and build it north of B), and American on the north end (North of Y) will cut these times by as much as 60%. Everyone else will still be taxiing around, but they won't have to taxi through the AA bottleneck. DFW has a poor layout for a hub airport, but that's easily corrected.

Actually, that doesn't solve the problems at DFW. Generally speaking, aircraft going to destinations east of DFW taxi to the east side of the airport, and depart. The same thing for the western departures going to destinations west of DFW. That is why departing traffic crosses the A,B,Y, & Z Bridges. Arriving traffic is the same way.

Building duel center field taxiway bridges between Terminals E & C/D, then A/B & C, is expensive, and really wouldn't save much more than a minute of outbound and inbound taxi times. We did survey this a few years back, before Terminal D was built (now we don't have the room to build them).

There is a thought, to offer to build Terminal F for WN, it will be north of B Twy/Bridge and east of Twy G, where the GA Ramp is today. The best way to increase taxi times is to "give" WN almost exclusive use of Twy F, and launch all of their departures on the west side. For AA, that will not work out.

But, this is all talk, I mentioned about a year ago, the taxi times is a big concern for WN, and they cannot make their goals at DFW, or most other big airports. Yes, I know WN flys into DEN, SEA, and LAX, but those are exceptions to their business plans. Almost everywhere else, they use the smaller airports, like MDW, BWI, LGA, PVD, Manchester, NH, if there are some available (in those areas) within easy commute distance. It is the same at DAL.
 
SPREE34
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 7):
You can name the carriers interested in establishing a DAL station once the W.A. is repealed on a single hand. As a hint, the only significant one is already back at DAL...

And losing their AA$$ to prove an un-provable point. The stockholders should have someone's AA$$ on a platter.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:11 pm

>>Multiply 6,156 flights times 137 (seats on each plane) and you come up with 843,372 available seats for the month. (Yes, I know Southwest has 25 735's that seat 122, but statistically those don't make much of a difference<<

LSM, you and I seldom disagree but I needed to point out one thing.

The difference between 122 and 137 seats makes quite a bit of difference.

Actually, the -500s tend to spend more time in Texas, just as the -200s did.

So most of the flying in/out of Love Field is on 122 seat aircraft.

The difference in Load Factor between 122 and 137 seat aircraft amounts to the difference between a LF of 54.0 and a LF of 60.6 percent.

There are some 137 seat aircraft that show up from time to time. But I think you'd have been closer to the actual LF using the 122 seat rather than the 137 seat model.

Somewhere's around 59.0 to 60.0 would be my guess.
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 8):
Thank you USPIT10L! I never cared for Wright either, and here's another reason to dislike it. I was all for WN moving into DFW if they could not fight Wright, but if they're going to waste fuel on the ground in such slow taxi times, they might as well not even hedge (exaggeration here). Thanks for giving me, as well as the rest of us a different perspective here on why Wright is Wrong...

Hey now that makes sense. Repeal a law written to protect public investment so an airline does not have to spend as much money to operate does not make sense. I understand that most of the people here are airline people but come on people, think!
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:57 pm

Thanks, TxAG. I didn't know that. Most of my flights from AUS-DAL have been on the -300 so I just assumed most of the other flights into/out of DAL...and I guess I should know better than that.

If you multiply the 6156 flights by 122 seats rather than 137 you come up with 751,032, or 92,340 fewer seats so that is quite a difference.

I stand corrected.

I'm asuming (oops - there I go again  Smile) that my original formula would be more accurate at airports outside the current Wright Amendment Area - that see little or no -500's.

LoneStarMike

 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 5):
Looking at DFW layouts, I don't quite understand what you are suggesting. Would such a terminal be located near the hold pads at the corners of the central terminal area?

You set in place semicircles over the roadway and infill the area around them, then build terminals on top of them. The terminals and associeated ramps would be on top of the road way with access to both sides of the airfield from any gate in the concourse. Look at it like Atlanta or Denver, but each concourse having it's own Ticket Counter and baggage claim.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Actually, that doesn't solve the problems at DFW. Generally speaking, aircraft going to destinations east of DFW taxi to the east side of the airport, and depart. The same thing for the western departures going to destinations west of DFW. That is why departing traffic crosses the A,B,Y, & Z Bridges. Arriving traffic is the same way.

And a cross field terminal allows direct access to each side of the field and would cut the times in half. As it is, they taxi north or south, then cross. Cross field terminals are always more efficient and provide substantially better access.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Building duel center field taxiway bridges between Terminals E & C/D, then A/B & C, is expensive, and really wouldn't save much more than a minute of outbound and inbound taxi times. We did survey this a few years back, before Terminal D was built (now we don't have the room to build them).

Then the consultants that did the study need to find new employment because they put too much emphasis on the existing terminal layout. A, B, C and E are near the end of their useful life. If there's any time to make this shift it will be in the coming years. They should have thought about that before going up with the skytrain. This monkey business of a core terminal complex with a circular taxiway system is the most half assed layout I've ever seen.
 
goingboeing
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 6):
With such a great deal for Southwest I wonder what will happen when all those other airlines move in once Wright is repealed? More traffic slower turn times. There goes the neighborhood.

YOu really think airlines will flock to DAL? Where was the rush of airlines into MDW or HOU?

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
Repeal a law written to protect public investment s

The public investment the WA was written to protect is 32 years old. It's what we usually call "mature", and no longer needs that protection. The WA was like training wheels on a bike for DFW...gets it started until it can ride on it's own. You're about as old as the Wright Amendment....do you still ride with training wheels?
 
sccutler
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 17):
But since you bring up big lies why don�t you tell us how Southwest cannot compete without the Wright Amendment removed from the books? Then you can lie to us again and tell us how is it that a law that applies to all carriers is anticompetive.

CJ, please recognize the distinction between a lie, the proffering of a statement known to be false but represented as truth; and a contention, an assertion advanced as an argument and intended to persuade. In may corners, to call someone a liar is one of the highest forms of insult, and I am certain that it is not your intent to unsult or demean anyone.

-=-

The WA restricts flights from Love Field. Any carrier which serves Love Field, and desires to fly beyond the Wright perimeter, is restricted from competing with carriers which fly from airports which do not have those restrictions.

Hence, the Wright Amendment is anticompetetive.

-=-

This is my contention, and one which is considered a credible contention among a geat many commentators, here, in the Dallas area at large, and indeed, among many experts elsewhere. Nothing there which could remotely answer to the definition of a "lie."

Presuming that Love Field and DFW serve (at least to some degree) the same market (north Texas), then lifting the Wright Amendment will serve to increase competition.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
petmbro
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 16):

YOu really think airlines will flock to DAL? Where was the rush of airlines into MDW or HOU?

They're not going to flock to DAL, which is why this doesn't make any sense. WHEN Wright is repealed DAL will become an LCC hub just like MDW and DFW will become the ORD of north Texas. You don't see ORD fighting over MDW, so why should DFW keep fighting over DAL? There is no reason the two can't peacefully coexist
"don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!" - Judge Judy
 
AirRyan
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:06 pm

I've heard the ol' taxi time arguments before but if it were really the case for WN than why did they go back to DEN, one of physically largest airports in the Nation? They want to stay at DAL for two reasons - A) they want to win their argument against AA so they don't lose face with the consumers, and B) they don't want to spend the money to move.

If they actually enforced taxi speed limits say like NASCAR enforces on pit-road via radar, WN would be just like the rest of the industry.
 
steeler83
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 16):
The public investment the WA was written to protect is 32 years old. It's what we usually call "mature", and no longer needs that protection. The WA was like training wheels on a bike for DFW...gets it started until it can ride on it's own. You're about as old as the Wright Amendment....do you still ride with training wheels?

Excellent post!!!!!! Big grin

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
please recognize the distinction between a lie, the proffering of a statement known to be false but represented as truth; and a contention, an assertion advanced as an argument and intended to persuade. In may corners, to call someone a liar is one of the highest forms of insult, and I am certain that it is not your intent to unsult or demean anyone.

It should not be of anyones intent to insult period, but I don't think he intended to call anyone a liar either.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
The WA restricts flights from Love Field. Any carrier which serves Love Field, and desires to fly beyond the Wright perimeter, is restricted from competing with carriers which fly from airports which do not have those restrictions.

Hence, the Wright Amendment is anticompetetive.

Then W.A. should be lifted. WN should not have to move to DFW where they'll burn more fuel on the ground during taxiing, higher landing fees and fees for services they do not need or use just to compete out of Dallas; that is just silly IMO...

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
Hey now that makes sense. Repeal a law written to protect public investment so an airline does not have to spend as much money to operate does not make sense. I understand that most of the people here are airline people but come on people, think!

Moving to DFW and paying for services they don't necessarily need, and having delays and taxi times mount my the minutes makes sense, but paying a reasonable ops fee at DAL does not make sense... Ok...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
CJ, please recognize the distinction between a lie, the proffering of a statement known to be false but represented as truth; and a contention, an assertion advanced as an argument and intended to persuade. In may corners, to call someone a liar is one of the highest forms of insult, and I am certain that it is not your intent to unsult or demean anyone.

The comment is directed at statements made by WN in support of their effort to repeal the WA. For your own reference such statements can be found on the Set Love Free Website.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
The WA restricts flights from Love Field. Any carrier which serves Love Field, and desires to fly beyond the Wright perimeter, is restricted from competing with carriers which fly from airports which do not have those restrictions.

Hence, the Wright Amendment is anticompetetive.

NO, it is not because the law does not compell those airlines serving DAL from serving at airports without restrictions. There is a difference between a legislated barrier that prevents a carrier from flying beyond the Wright perimeter at all airports and a legislative barrier that prevents all carriers from flying beyond the Wright perimeter at a single airport.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):
This is my contention, and one which is considered a credible contention among a geat many commentators, here, in the Dallas area at large, and indeed, among many experts elsewhere. Nothing there which could remotely answer to the definition of a "lie."

You are of course entitled to your contention. However the rest of us know there is no competitive barrier to Southwest flying long distance routes from North Texas other than those that are self imposed.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 16):
The public investment the WA was written to protect is 32 years old. It's what we usually call "mature", and no longer needs that protection. The WA was like training wheels on a bike for DFW...gets it started until it can ride on it's own. You're about as old as the Wright Amendment....do you still ride with training wheels?

The public investment is not finished growing and anything that can be done to facilitate its growth is good for the region.

I do not need training wheels but I do drive with safety belts fastened. Seems a wise thing to do. Protecting the public investment is also a wise thing to do.

[Edited 2006-04-26 05:42:09]
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
cf6ppe
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting Iluv2pilot (Thread starter):
On average, a plane doing a turn at DFW has 16.91 more minutes of taxi time getting to its gate and back to the runway than a plane doing a turn at Love Field. Multiply that extra 16.91 minutes per turn by 120 turns per day (what WN currently does at DAL) and that's nearly 34 additional hours of fuel-burning taxi-time per day to offer the same number of flights out of DFW.

The additional 34 hours of daily taxi time would consume an (est.) additional 10,000 gallons of fuel on a daily basis, or about 3.7 million gallons annually....

At todays fuel prices the additional cost could be more than $7 million annually...

Also, with the longer taxi in/out times at DFW, most likely additional equipment (aircraft) would be required to operate a schedule equivalent to DAL....

I would imagine that the WN 's economics at DAL are much better without taking into consideration the additional costs of operation at DFW...

Maybe AA needs to take a lesson in airport economics 101....
 
sccutler
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 20):

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 18):...the Wright Amendment is anticompetitive.

NO, it is not because the law does not compell those airlines serving DAL from serving at airports without restrictions. There is a difference between a legislated barrier that prevents a carrier from flying beyond the Wright perimeter at all airports and a legislative barrier that prevents all carriers from flying beyond the Wright perimeter at a single airport.

Ah yes, but in order to do so, an airline already established and possessing all needed infrastructure at DAL, and thus needing none of the more-costly facilities located at DFW, would have to pick up and move, a move which would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. So... it logically and inevitably follows that...

...the WA restricts flights from Love Field. Any carrier which serves Love Field, and desires to fly beyond the Wright perimeter, is restricted from competing with carriers which fly from airports which do not have those restrictions.

Hence, the Wright Amendment is anticompetitive.

===

The "barrier" to Southwest competing beyond the Wright perimeter is certainly not "self-imposed" (Southwest never "imposed" legislation on itself), nor (for that matter) is there a singular "barrier."

Southwest is precluded from competing from DAL by restrictive legislation; Southwest is inhibited from competing at DFW by (inter alia ) the prohibitive cost of abandoning its existing, appropriate and fully-functional infrastruture base at DAL, the absence of appropriate infrastructure at DFW (appropriate to its operations), the expense of enduring infrastructure at DFW which is utterly useless to WN, and the presence of a dominant carrier at DFW whose operations would be disruptive of WN's efficient business model. these are the proverbial "tip of the iceberg."

That WN could be competitive at DFW, in no rational way compels the conclusion that they should be forced to move.

Simple, free-market economics. Having more choices is virtually always better, and this is a great example.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 23):
The "barrier" to Southwest competing beyond the Wright perimeter is certainly not "self-imposed" (Southwest never "imposed" legislation on itself), nor (for that matter) is there a singular "barrier."

Yes, but WN did continue to operate out of DAL even though they agreed to the Wright compromise even though the opportunity for them to fly out of DFW was always available. WN chose to abide by Wright, agreed to be "passionately neutral" about it, and ignored the multiple chances they had to move to DFW, so yes, in a way, the barrier is self-imposed.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 23):
Ah yes, but in order to do so, an airline already established and possessing all needed infrastructure at DAL, and thus needing none of the more-costly facilities located at DFW, would have to pick up and move, a move which would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. So... it logically and inevitably follows that...

...the WA restricts flights from Love Field. Any carrier which serves Love Field, and desires to fly beyond the Wright perimeter, is restricted from competing with carriers which fly from airports which do not have those restrictions.

Hence, the Wright Amendment is anticompetitive.

Southwest having infrastructure at DAL is an excuse. Southwest having infrastructure at DAL is not a valid reason as to why the Wright amendment could be considered anticompetitive.

All of the airlines at DAL that moved to DFW had established infrastructure to. All the airlines that moved from Stapleton to DIA had established infrastructure also. The same goes for the airport at Austin. That is an excuse not a reason that makes the Wright Amendment anticompetitive.



Quoting SCCutler (Reply 23):
The "barrier" to Southwest competing beyond the Wright perimeter is certainly not "self-imposed" (Southwest never "imposed" legislation on itself), nor (for that matter) is there a singular "barrier."

Southwest is precluded from competing from DAL by restrictive legislation; Southwest is inhibited from competing at DFW by (inter alia ) the prohibitive cost of abandoning its existing, appropriate and fully-functional infrastruture base at DAL, the absence of appropriate infrastructure at DFW (appropriate to its operations), the expense of enduring infrastructure at DFW which is utterly useless to WN, and the presence of a dominant carrier at DFW whose operations would be disruptive of WN's efficient business model. these are the proverbial "tip of the iceberg."

They stayed and built up infrastructure at a restricted airport when they knew they could not grow this market into correlation with the rest of their network. That makes it self imposed!

Repealing a law to protect Southwest’s business plan by enabling it to maintain the status quo meaning letting Southwest stay in DAL rather than being forced to compete head to head at DFW flies in the face of the free market you are touting. If Southwest was to move to DFW the consumers here would be the ultimate winners. Isn’t that what we should be concentrating on? Maximizing the number of flights at DFW will bring more passengers to DFW and allow consumers more choices as to carriers and destinations served.

Keeping the airlines in this region at separate airports only serves the interest of both AA and WN not the consumers and will not help to bring prices down. You are right having more choices is virtually always better. Getting Southwest to DFW is the best way to make it happen.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 23):
That WN could be competitive at DFW, in no rational way compels the conclusion that they should be forced to move.

Simple, free-market economics. Having more choices is virtually always better, and this is a great example.

Southwest being able to compete at DFW is a reason not to repeal the WA. The free market conditions for airlines have been in place for years. We should have had more choices as you say years ago. Bad business decisions are not a compelling reason to change laws.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
iluv2pilot
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 2:55 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:46 am

The other problem with DFW for WN passengers is security and terminal issues. More to park, takes longer to get to gate, a passenger has to get there earlier. WN understands the the small airport benefit. DFW is not a good fit. Period.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:53 am

The issues mentioned in CJ's immediately-preceding post are rationally-stated, and in my view, more than adequately addressed by the change in market conditions.

DFW has much that is of no use or value to WN. It will be an outsanding boon to the area when the WA is TU. OK?
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
apodino
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 12):
Hey now that makes sense. Repeal a law written to protect public investment so an airline does not have to spend as much money to operate does not make sense. I understand that most of the people here are airline people but come on people, think!

If Southwest moves to DFW, they have to spend more on gas to taxi. Hence this adds to the demand for Jet A and those fuel prices go even higher. This will add to AA's fuel bill, causing the ticket prices to spike, not go down. And guess who laughs all the way to the bank. Lee Raymond and Dubyas other friends in big oil.

(The above is satire and is no way meant to be taken seriously.)
 
cjpark
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RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 27):
The issues mentioned in CJ's immediately-preceding post are rationally-stated, and in my view, more than adequately addressed by the change in market conditions.

DFW has much that is of no use or value to WN. It will be an outsanding boon to the area when the WA is TU. OK?

Keeping the airlines in this region at separate airports only serves the interest of both AA and WN not the consumers and will not help to bring prices down.

Maybe you should think about it this way. More and more people are now actually suggesting that DAL be closed down completely. Even the papers are giving voice to this suggestion. Given the choice between the WA being repealed and Love being closed as a result of repeal or maintaining the WA in place to force competition at DFW and allowing DAL to stay open which is the better choice for the City of Dallas?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:49 am

Repealing Wright is in the public's best interest because it makes use of the all the public's already paid for infrastructure at both airports, generates more traffic at both airports and contributes an additional $1.7 billion to the local economy. That's a rising tide that lifts all boats and that's why we'll be discussing the various impacts of a free DAL in just a few short months.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 29):
Given the choice between the WA being repealed and Love being closed as a result of repeal or maintaining the WA in place to force competition at DFW and allowing DAL to stay open which is the better choice for the City of Dallas?

I think the answer would be "C", none of the above...

With Wright gone, and existing limits on growth at Love already in place, repeal/closing Love makes little sense in the big scheme of things.

The costs to close Love would be substansial. First, you have the Legend Terminal and parking garage. The City doesn't own them, and the folks that so say they're worth $100 million. Second, you have the cost of SWA's facilities, another $100 million. Third, assuming you knock both those (and everything else down), you then have the remediation costs for all the pollution Love has seen in its nearly 80 years as an airport. (They hauled off nearly 2 million cubic yards of contaminated soil from the Denver's old Stapleton site). Don't forget to add the cost of asbestos remediation. Where is the City of Dallas going to get the money to accomplish all this? Eminent domain use will undoubtedly trigger lawsuits that will take awhile to resolve.

Dallas' best option, IMHO, is to keep Love open, push for Wright repeal, and reap the direct/indirect benefits of controlled growth at Love. Too noisy? AA could always decide to yank the MD-80s and replace them with some 737-800s (just as quiet as SWA's 737-700s).
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 29):
Maybe you should think about it this way. More and more people are now actually suggesting that DAL be closed down completely. Even the papers are giving voice to this suggestion. Given the choice between the WA being repealed and Love being closed as a result of repeal or maintaining the WA in place to force competition at DFW and allowing DAL to stay open which is the better choice for the City of Dallas?

Objection. Assumes a false and impossible predicate. The closure of DAL is not an option, as this action would (1) violate federal law; (2) destroy one of the largest sources of employment in north Texas; and (3) eliminate a recognized vital element of aviation infrastructure.

So just stop with the sillyness.

I recognize that closure of Love Field is likely the second-most-common masturbatory fantasy of WN-haters all over (behind, of course, actual failure of the airline, itself), but Love's closure is right up there with revival of Braniff International Airways in probability.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
B) they don't want to spend the money to move.

And this is bad how?
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 32):
The closure of DAL is not an option, as this action would (1) violate federal law;

How would it violate federal law to close an airport? Was it a violation to close Robert Mueller Airport or Stapleton?

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 32):
destroy one of the largest sources of employment in north Texas

Yeah, cause DFW doesn't employ anyone compared to the mighty Love Field. Plus, I'll guarantee you more people show up to one Cowboys game on a Sunday than there are employees at Love Field. Might even hold true for one Mavs game. There are many large corporations and industries based in the DFW area and the loss of Love Field won't hurt the economy very much.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 32):
and (3) eliminate a recognized vital element of aviation infrastructure.

You forgot to add "while at the same time strengthening a far more vital element of aviation infrastructure and ensuring the public benefits from the purest form of competition and the lowest fares."
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 34):
There are many large corporations and industries based in the DFW area and the loss of Love Field won't hurt the economy very much.

You haven't been to Dallas much, have you?
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 32):
Objection. Assumes a false and impossible predicate. The closure of DAL is not an option, as this action would (1) violate federal law; (2) destroy one of the largest sources of employment in north Texas; and (3) eliminate a recognized vital element of aviation infrastructure.

So just stop with the sillyness.

I recognize that closure of Love Field is likely the second-most-common masturbatory fantasy of WN-haters all over (behind, of course, actual failure of the airline, itself), but Love's closure is right up there with revival of Braniff International Airways in probability.

WOW. Nobody is saying they are going to close Love, but unless you have blackmail material on a majority of the Dallas City Council, I'm afraid your arrogance in saying it can't be closed is a bit uncalled for.

HPLASops makes all the key points -- no need to repeat -- I'll only emphasize one thing: No matter your WN ego, AA will always be more important to north Texas than WN. Because of the flights it has into and out of the metroplex, because of the people it employs in the metroplex (both at airport and corporate), and because of its community involvement from having its headquarters in Ft. Worth (financially and otherwise).
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 32):
Objection. Assumes a false and impossible predicate. The closure of DAL is not an option, as this action would (1) violate federal law; (2) destroy one of the largest sources of employment in north Texas; and (3) eliminate a recognized vital element of aviation infrastructure.

So just stop with the sillyness.

I recognize that closure of Love Field is likely the second-most-common masturbatory fantasy of WN-haters all over (behind, of course, actual failure of the airline, itself), but Love's closure is right up there with revival of Braniff International Airways in probability.

Objection to what. Assuming a false and impossible predicate? Let me remind you that there are two Senators with a Bill in place to close Love Field. We also have a Congress person who has made similar threats. We are also seeing the question being raised to City Hall for studies on the possible use for DAL if it is closed.

What is the difference between threatening the jobs at DAL as compared to the threat of countless others losing or retaining diminished jobs elsewhere as a result of WN's effort to repeal Wright? I guess it depends on whose job you are talking about right?

We have other under utilized airports for GA in Dallas including one that is sitting empty.

Now you can pull on your argument all you want to SC. The fact remains that the WA is not the reason for a lack of competition between airlines in North Texas.

Your contention that anyone opposed to a Wright repeal must hate WN is fanciful to say the least.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 31):
I think the answer would be "C", none of the above...

With Wright gone, and existing limits on growth at Love already in place, repeal/closing Love makes little sense in the big scheme of things.

The costs to close Love would be substansial. First, you have the Legend Terminal and parking garage. The City doesn't own them, and the folks that so say they're worth $100 million. Second, you have the cost of SWA's facilities, another $100 million. Third, assuming you knock both those (and everything else down), you then have the remediation costs for all the pollution Love has seen in its nearly 80 years as an airport. (They hauled off nearly 2 million cubic yards of contaminated soil from the Denver's old Stapleton site). Don't forget to add the cost of asbestos remediation. Where is the City of Dallas going to get the money to accomplish all this? Eminent domain use will undoubtedly trigger lawsuits that will take awhile to resolve.

Dallas' best option, IMHO, is to keep Love open, push for Wright repeal, and reap the direct/indirect benefits of controlled growth at Love. Too noisy? AA could always decide to yank the MD-80s and replace them with some 737-800s (just as quiet as SWA's 737-700s).

Remember OP that the current Master Plan was built with the assumption that the WA would remain in place and that growth at the airport would be limited by the restrictions of the WA.

Remind yourself that the City of Dallas is not responsible for the value of Southwest's property at DAL or any bad business decisions made by WN at DAL. The Legend terminal and parking garage would make one hell of a car lot. I believe Sewell Corp is all ready using the parking lot on the east side of Lemmon Ave.

Remediation costs will be paid by whomever the EPA can get the courts to blame for the pollution. WN is the biggest user of the airport. That fact makes your company a great target to pass the clean up costs to.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 35):
Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 34):
There are many large corporations and industries based in the DFW area and the loss of Love Field won't hurt the economy very much.

You haven't been to Dallas much, have you?

I'm living there right now and I see nothing wrong with that statement. I'm not suggesting that it would go unnoticed, but DFW has PLENTY of room to expand, so theoretically, it could absorb Love jobs, etc. Love and DFW are only 15-20 minutes apart, so it's not like you have to go across a metro area or anything. I would think they would keep it open for GA, so given that, I really don't see how it would be a big hit for the metroplex at all.
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 35):
You haven't been to Dallas much, have you?

About a dozen times with family members still living around the area. I'm coming back around late June, early July in fact.

However, my experiences in North Texas don't have any relation to my ability to read facts and do research.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 35):
You haven't been to Dallas much, have you?

Do the business travelers really want to travel out of their way to some traffic-laden overpriced fortress just to fly to the top business markets??? I'd like to not think so...  

US had that in PIT with their fortress hub. Why else do you think that PIT's O&D was and still is supremely small?

[Edited 2006-04-27 05:46:10]
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 40):
Do the business travelers really want to travel out of their way to some traffic-laden overpriced fortress just to fly to the top business markets???

PIT is out of the way, DFW is not. DFW is centrally located to ALL travelers, business and leisure, in North Texas with multiple freeway access. All airlines who serve the area would be wise to serve an airport that is convenient for the largest number of passengers. As for the traffic-laden overpriced fortress in the top business markets - well the two go hand in hand. The bigger the market, the bigger the airport. A city that attracts significant buisness travel is going to need a large airport capable of handling such traffic.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
ckfred
Posts: 4713
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Petmbro (Reply 17):
You don't see ORD fighting over MDW, so why should DFW keep fighting over DAL? There is no reason the two can't peacefully coexist

There are two significant differences. First, ORD is maxed out under FAA rules until the third east-west runway is built. Second, both MDW and ORD are owned and operated by the City of Chicago. So, the money winds up at City Hall, regardless of which airport it comes from.

I understand why WN wants to stay at DAL, with the short taxi times. But, WN has gone into DEN, which can have very long taxi times. A friend of mine flies for AA, and he has spent up to 20 minutes taxiing in, depending on the runway configuration.

PHL is another example. My AA friend tells me that no matter whether he pushes back 15 minutes late or 5 minutes early, he gets into a long line and loses 5 to 15 minutes.

One would think that both of these airports can cause some problems with WN's need to keep planes on the ground for as short a time as possible.

Here's another item to consider. If the W.A. is repealed, wouldn't B6 come into DAL ASAP and start offering service to BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, and LGB? After all, if I was in Dallas and needed to be in downtown Boston or Midtown Manhatten, would I want to fly cattle-car to MHT/PVD or ISP, or would I rather fly with a reserved seat and in-flight TV to an airport that is far closer to my final destination?
 
sccutler
Posts: 5567
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Dartland (Reply 36):
Nobody is saying they are going to close Love, but unless you have blackmail material on a majority of the Dallas City Council, I'm afraid your arrogance in saying it can't be closed is a bit uncalled for.

No arrogance involved, unless you characterize knowledge of the law and how it works as "arrogance"; DAL is a targeted "Primary and Comercial Service Airport" in the FAA's "National Plan of Integrated Airport Systems" (NPIAS), and a grant recipient under the Airport Improvement Program (AIP). Grant obligations preclude closure of recipient airports by the operating sponsors.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 37):
Now you can pull on your argument all you want to SC. The fact remains that the WA is not the reason for a lack of competition between airlines in North Texas.

Well, see, there we clearly disagree. You contend that moving from DAL and operating from DFW would in no way impede the ability of WN to compete; I contend that it does.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 37):
Your contention that anyone opposed to a Wright repeal must hate WN is fanciful to say the least.

While I am often given to flights of fancy (in airplanes, no less!), I have never made the contention which you have ascribed to me above.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 41):
DFW is centrally located to ALL travelers, business and leisure, in North Texas with multiple freeway access.

No, DFW is "centrally located" only for the travelers for whom it is centrally located; it is, concurrently, terribly inconvenient for those for whom it is terribly inconvenient, and moderately inconvenient for those who are somewhere in between.

I (for example) can leave my office, drive to DAL, park, clear security and be on a plane to... someplace... in 25 minutes flat (and I've done it in 15, thanks to the unusually-helpful TSA staff at DAL). DFW takes (assuming no unfortunate accidents on Stemmons, 114 or 183) 1:15 or more. For that matter, from the time you arrive at the front gate of DFW to the time you are at your boarding gate (again, assuming you are driving yourself) is rarely less than 30 minutes.

If I worked in Solana, or Southlake, or Irving, or Ft. Worth, or Arlington (well, you get the drift), DFW would be more convenient.

===

Again, I see posters above falling into the persistent misconception that DAL's sole function is to serve airline traffic; and that is not that much of a surprise on an airline hobbyist site. But the users of Love Field are not hobbyists; they are business owners, road warriors, leisure travelers, aircraft operators, and all manner of other aviation-industry-related folk. Closing Love Field is simply not an option, practically, economically or legally.

There may be persuasive arguments for retaining the Wright Amendment (though I have not seen any yet), but one who posits that closing Love Field Airport is a rational alternative, abandons any pretense of credibility in so doing.

===

If DFW really wanted WN to move there, they'd make a legitimate proposal. The conditions and restrictions in the one they made showed the true colors. DFW may actually want WN to move, but certainly not enough to incur the ire of American Airlines, as they would do if they made a proposal which was legitimately appealing to Southwest.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 43):
Again, I see posters above falling into the persistent misconception that DAL's sole function is to serve airline traffic; and that is not that much of a surprise on an airline hobbyist site. But the users of Love Field are not hobbyists; they are business owners, road warriors, leisure travelers, aircraft operators, and all manner of other aviation-industry-related folk. Closing Love Field is simply not an option, practically, economically or legally.

There may be persuasive arguments for retaining the Wright Amendment (though I have not seen any yet), but one who posits that closing Love Field Airport is a rational alternative, abandons any pretense of credibility in so doing.

===

If DFW really wanted WN to move there, they'd make a legitimate proposal. The conditions and restrictions in the one they made showed the true colors. DFW may actually want WN to move, but certainly not enough to incur the ire of American Airlines, as they would do if they made a proposal which was legitimately appealing to Southwest.

SC, you can go and look for yourself at the FAA financial reports if you want to. What you will find is that GA does not bring in enough revenue from either property rentals, or fuel flowage fees to support that airport on its own with out massive restructing of fees and leases.

As to whether it is legally permissible to close the airport then how have Denver, Austin been able to close theirs?

The issue here has and always has been is resolving the Wright Amendment dispute. To preclude outright closure of airports in this area to PAX service as a way to resolve the issue is folly. All options must to be on the table.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
goingboeing
Posts: 4727
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 41):
DFW is centrally located to ALL travelers, business and leisure, in North Texas with multiple freeway access.

Doesn't that shoot down the "closer to business" argument the pro Wright people sling out because that would be the cause of the mass exodus of flights from DFW to Love?
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 42):
Here's another item to consider. If the W.A. is repealed, wouldn't B6 come into DAL ASAP and start offering service to BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, and LGB? After all, if I was in Dallas and needed to be in downtown Boston or Midtown Manhatten, would I want to fly cattle-car to MHT/PVD or ISP, or would I rather fly with a reserved seat and in-flight TV to an airport that is far closer to my final destination?

This is what AA is really scared of. These routes from DFW to LGA/BOS are the most profitable in their entire system. TZ on a codeshare from LGA to DAL would also hurt them big time.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 42):
Here's another item to consider. If the W.A. is repealed, wouldn't B6 come into DAL ASAP and start offering service to BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, and LGB? After all, if I was in Dallas and needed to be in downtown Boston or Midtown Manhatten, would I want to fly cattle-car to MHT/PVD or ISP, or would I rather fly with a reserved seat and in-flight TV to an airport that is far closer to my final destination?

If WN had not started the effort to repeal the WA we probably would have all ready had B6 flying from DFW to BOS, JFK, LGA, LGB and EWR by now.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 47):
If WN had not started the effort to repeal the WA we probably would have all ready had B6 flying from DFW to BOS, JFK, LGA, LGB and EWR by now.

That's a bold statement given that:

(1) B6 stated that DFW was not a high priority before WN began their W.A. repeal efforts in November 2004

(2) B6 has slowed growth because of high fuel cost and profit losses.

(3) DFW would be one of the more challenging markets for B6 to enter, just as hard than their failed attempt to launch ATL. jetBlue has decided to defer several A320 deliveries as well as sell 2-3 of their delievered aircraft.

Given their quarterly statements, do you think they would have started DFW service in the last 18 months and grown to a five destination focus city? Are you also forgetting that FL built a focus city on many of those routes only to be crushed by AA in the same timespan?

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 43):
If DFW really wanted WN to move there, they'd make a legitimate proposal. The conditions and restrictions in the one they made showed the true colors

Bingo  checkmark 

WN is an incredibly sharp, well-run airline. They are not prideful, stupid, or ignorant. If DFW made an offer that enabled WN to opperate with the same efficency they have at DAL, WN would take it. I think we can therefore assume that DFW hasn't given WN a reasonable offer.

Hypothetical reasons why:

(1) DFW doesn't know what WN requires in order to opperate from DFW. Unlikely, why wouldn't WN state their terms? Then again, it is Kevin Cox we're talking about running this opperation...  Wink

(2) DFW isn't in a position to offer what WN needs. Plausable, moving WN in whole to DFW would be no small undertaking. The airport has just spent a handsome sum of money on Terminal D and airport improvements, then suddenly losing DL at Terminal E.

(3) DFW won't offer WN what they need. Also plausable, but less so IMO. I have little doubt that DFW and AA are in bed to a degree. They both have the same goal (but for different reasons) which can often lead to dubious political alliances.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 42):
Here's another item to consider. If the W.A. is repealed, wouldn't B6 come into DAL ASAP and start offering service to BOS, JFK/LGA/EWR, and LGB?

Why do you continue the misconception that every airline in the lower-48 is licking their lips to start DAL service?  Yeah sure

B6 has not followed WN's preference of secondary airports.

Look at Chicago. B6 has stated for some time that Chicago is a desirable market, but they still haven't started service. Did B6 make a move when TZ was in Ch.11 and looking for a merger/buyout partner? No! B6 didn't even tender a bid. They could have just written a check and took a commanding position in a lucrative market.

But B6 doesn't want any part of MDW. They want to serve ORD! They are waiting for a suitable number of ORD gates. This is the airline that began service from JFK, and moved to ERW, LGA, ATL, IAD, and BOS. WN only recently decided to touched IAD with a stick.

You really think B6 is itching to enter DAL, an airport with limited growth potential (effectivly isolated from half of the metro area) and only ten miles closer to the all-mighty downtown Dallas?

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 46):
TZ on a codeshare from LGA to DAL would also hurt them big time.

If TZ flies DAL-LGA (or DFW) direct, it's a non-codeshare flight and AA isn't competing against WN.

It's only a codeshare if WN flies (say) DAL-MDW and TZ flies MDW-LGA. In this case, WN/TZ are offering a non-competitive product with AA direct service.
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Why WN Will Fight To The Death At DAL

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 48):
If TZ flies DAL-LGA (or DFW) direct, it's a non-codeshare flight and AA isn't competing against WN.

It's only a codeshare if WN flies (say) DAL-MDW and TZ flies MDW-LGA. In this case, WN/TZ are offering a non-competitive product with AA direct service.

I realize I could have worded that better, but I meant TZ flying DAL -LGA and WN providing codeshare opportunities from other cities to DAL.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 47):
If WN had not started the effort to repeal the WA we probably would have all ready had B6 flying from DFW to BOS, JFK, LGA, LGB and EWR by now.

That's a brilliant statement. Something that cannot be proven true or false. Kind of like, WN would have moved its entire operation over to DFW by now if AA hadn't prevented the DFW board from making a reasonable offer.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging

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