ludavid777
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:59 am

Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:35 am

Ok guys... I need your help.

A friend of mine and I are in a little debate on which company is bigger in regards to available seats per mile. I am talking about the newly combined US and HP verses CO.

I find on US Airway's press releases that they WILL form the US's 5th largest carrier once combined. But CO's press releases state that they are the WORLD's sixth largest airline.

So I am needing help clarifying which carrier is bigger here in the US... the new US or CO?

I am not looking for opinions... just facts!!

thanks in advance for your help!
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:56 am

Well, the traditional/standard measure of size is Revenue Passenger Miles (RPMs) and not Available Seat Miles (ASMs). In terms of RPMs for 2006 so far (i.e., Jan-Mar 2006), the combined US-HP group still ranks #6; CO is now #4:

American 32,995,626
United 27,425,130
Delta 22,481,403
Continental 18,018,147
Northwest 16,942,441
US Airways Group (including HP): 14,687,555*

*I believe the US # includes US Airways Express also but the other carriers' stats only includes mainline so in effect US-HP mainline is a bit lower than the quoted number
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:04 am

What about fleet wise, which airline is larger?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1866
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
What about fleet wise, which airline is larger?

CO, by far.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
MaxQ2351
Posts: 321
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:41 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
What about fleet wise, which airline is larger?

I got the following fleet information from www.bestaviation.net which may or may not be up to date, I'm not sure!! It'll give you a pretty good ballpark idea though.

AA-
46 - B777
58 - B767-300
16 - B767-200
34 - A300
143 - B757
336 - MD80
77 - B737-800

UA-
31 - B747-400
52 - B777
37 - B767-300
97 - B757
94 - B737-300/-500
97 - A320
55 - A319

DL-
8 - B777
21 - B767-400
86 - B767-300
10 - B767-200
70 - B737-800
26 - B737-300
52 - B737-200
121 - B757
16 - MD90
120 - MD80

CO-
18 - B777
16 - B767-400
10 - B767-200
13 - B757-300
41 - B757-200
12 - B737-900
99 - B737-800
36 - B737-700
111 - B737-300

NW-
16 - B747-400
8 - B747-200
14 - B747-200F
16 - B757-300
56 - B757-200
8 - A330-300
7 - A330-200
78 - A320
72 - A319
22 - DC10-30
150 - DC9

US-
10 - B767-200
44 - B757
150 - B737-300/-400
9 - A330
28 - A321
77 - A320
98 - A319

If my counts are right, here are the fleet totals:

AA- 710
UA- 463
DL- 530
CO- 356
NW- 433 (18 747-200F not included)
US- 416


-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 3):
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
What about fleet wise, which airline is larger?

CO, by far.

Uh...not so much.

Continental:
B737-300 51
B737-500 63
B737-700 36
B737-800 104
B737-900 12
B757-200 41
B757-300 17
B767-200ER 10
B767-400ER 16
B777-200ER 18
TOTAL: 368

US Airways:
A319 56
A320 24
A321 28
B737-300 56
B737-400 45
B757-200 31
B767-200ER10
A330 9
TOTAL: 259

America West:
A-319 37
A-320 73
B737-300 37
B757-200 13
TOTAL: 160
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 1866
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 5):
Uh...not so much.

Thanks. CO has been US' closest and biggest legacy competitor these last few years, and the only reason I said CO was bigger was because of transatlantic/transpacific travel. Thanks for the listings, but I thought US' 733/734 fleet was being decimated as we speak. It might not be as close as we thought.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:30 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 6):

Thanks. CO has been US' closest and biggest legacy competitor these last few years, and the only reason I said CO was bigger was because of transatlantic/transpacific travel. Thanks for the listings, but I thought US' 733/734 fleet was being decimated as we speak. It might not be as close as we thought.

Ahh, the future I cannot tell. Let's check back in 6 months and maybe we'll see a different story per your thouhts.

I don't have 1Q06 data handy -- can anyone do the RPMs for US domestic only? Wouldn't be surprised to see US over CO.
 
radelow
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:07 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:20 pm

I can't get over that AA MD-80 number... When I was at DFW this weekend it seemed like every other plane was an MD-80.

FYI, flew on one for the first time in a long time....what a great aircraft. Very solid feeling, pretty quiet (I was in row 10) and flew really nice.
 
commavia
Posts: 9636
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Radelow (Reply 8):
I can't get over that AA MD-80 number... When I was at DFW this weekend it seemed like every other plane was an MD-80.

It really is staggering, I must say. I probably fly in or out of DFW at least 100 times per year, and every time I'm coming in on final, or beginning to rotate, on one of the many parallel runways running right along the terminals, looking over to see dozens upon dozens upon dozens of those shiny silver Mad Dogs is, at least in my opinion, breathtaking. It is very impressive, if for no other reason than because of the sheer volume.

Quoting Radelow (Reply 8):
FYI, flew on one for the first time in a long time....what a great aircraft. Very solid feeling, pretty quiet (I was in row 10) and flew really nice.

Agreed. So many seem to hate the MD80s, but I really like them. I love how you have a much lower chance of a middle seat, and I love that as long as you're not sitting in the last 5-10 rows of Coach, the plane is remarkably quiet.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Radelow (Reply 8):
I can't get over that AA MD-80 number

And I can't get over this number:

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 4):
52 - B737-200

I had no idea Delta still had this many Classic 737s in their fleet!
Delete this User
 
jm017
Posts: 780
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:47 pm

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Radelow (Reply 8):
I can't get over that AA MD-80 number...

I think just as staggering is the number of B777 operated by Delta: 8. Such a small number.
"It's okay to cheat, if you just really don't like to lose."
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:02 pm

I find it really interesting that CO has substantially less aircraft (relative to size) than everyone else, yet it still manages to be #4 in size. Is their utilization really that much higher than everyone else? If so, why isn't everyone as efficient as them?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 6):
Thanks for the listings, but I thought US' 733/734 fleet was being decimated as we speak.

They still have those suckers flying all over their system.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Agreed. So many seem to hate the MD80s, but I really like them. I love how you have a much lower chance of a middle seat, and I love that as long as you're not sitting in the last 5-10 rows of Coach, the plane is remarkably quiet.

My favorite part about the MD80 is the sound their engines make when you are on the outside of the airplane. A beautiful whistle when idling and an amazing low rumble when at full power

Quoting Stirling (Reply 10):
Quoting Radelow (Reply 8):
I can't get over that AA MD-80 number

And I can't get over this number:

I don't think anyone can
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
panamair
Posts: 3759
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Dartland (Reply 7):
I don't have 1Q06 data handy -- can anyone do the RPMs for US domestic only? Wouldn't be surprised to see US over CO.

Yes, for pure domestic RPMs, US is #4. RPMs Jan-Mar 2006 Domestic (Mainline only):

American 21,886,301
United 16,566,265
Delta 16,052,710
US-HP 11,613,214
Continental 9,968,726
Northwest 9,830,101
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:58 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 14):
Yes, for pure domestic RPMs, US is #4. RPMs Jan-Mar 2006 Domestic (Mainline only):

American 21,886,301
United 16,566,265
Delta 16,052,710
US-HP 11,613,214
Continental 9,968,726
Northwest 9,830,101

Actually, they are #5. Southwest is fourth at 15,280,497 (this number and your numbers are all in thousands). Also note that in your previous list:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
American 32,995,626
United 27,425,130
Delta 22,481,403
Continental 18,018,147
Northwest 16,942,441
US Airways Group (including HP): 14,687,555*

Southwest would be sixth, between Northwest and US Airways, at the same 15,280,497.

Quoting Dartland (Reply 5):
US Airways:
A319 56
A320 24
A321 28
B737-300 56
B737-400 45
B757-200 31
B767-200ER10
A330 9
TOTAL: 259

America West:
A-319 37
A-320 73
B737-300 37
B757-200 13
TOTAL: 160

This information is outdated; as of April, 2006, the combined US/HP fleet numbers 358 aircraft (93 A319's, 75 A320's, 28 A321's, 9 A330's, 57 737-300's, 40 737-400's, 46 757-200's, and 10 767-200ER's). Pre-merger US Airways returned close to 60 mainline aircraft as part of the bankruptcy reorganization.

By year-end, it's likely that Southwest will be third for total fleet size with just over 475 737's.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:02 pm

Quoting Ludavid777 (Thread starter):
I find on US Airway's press releases that they WILL form the US's 5th largest carrier once combined. But CO's press releases state that they are the WORLD's sixth largest airline.

I forgot to respond to this. Read US Airways' statement a bit more closely; they claim (accurately) that "US Airways and America West have joined together to create the fifth largest domestic airline." (Emphasis added). They are the #7 U.S. carrier including international operations, since CO and NW dwarf them for international presence, but they are #5 domestically.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:35 pm

Also, WN is third for passengers carried.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
aa1818
Posts: 1515
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:03 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:08 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 12):
I find it really interesting that CO has substantially less aircraft (relative to size) than everyone else, yet it still manages to be #4 in size. Is their utilization really that much higher than everyone else? If so, why isn't everyone as efficient as them?

just to add- their long haul fleet seems severely smaller than AA's or UA's. I always thought of CO having many more 767. US is even smaller in term of long haul fleet size but that comes as no suprise. Co is shocking though.

Guess size isn't everything!!!!! hehe

AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 18):
I always thought of CO having many more 767.

It has been known for a while that CO has been sorely lacking in widebody aircraft, and have made up for it with the fact that they have exceptionally heavy 752s allowing them to cover all of western and most of central Europe without having to have the risk and expense of widebody aircraft. It has, however, hurt them in major route expansion.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 12):
I find it really interesting that CO has substantially less aircraft (relative to size) than everyone else, yet it still manages to be #4 in size.

well COs fleet is well utilized, and they also have a two class international product, which means more seats per 777 and 767 than other carriers with 3 class service.

But CO will not have an opportunity to grow larger without more lift. But they don't have the money to buy a lot of planes, either.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2611
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 10):
I had no idea Delta still had this many Classic 737s in their fleet!

They don't. That number is kind of old. DL currently has 30 737-200s, still a sizable number.

Jeremy
 
tpaewr
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:01 am

RE: Which Is Bigger CO Or The New US?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
well COs fleet is well utilized, and they also have a two class international product, which means more seats per 777 and 767 than other carriers with 3 class service.


But CO will not have an opportunity to grow larger without more lift. But they don't have the money to buy a lot of planes, either.

Only UA has int'l 3 class 767s (carefully worded to exclude AA's transcon fleet) And even then, UA has a few 2 class 777s. DL's vast armada of 767s are all 2 class since the late 90s. Likewise NW has converted their 747s to 2 class, while the D10s and 330s always have been.


CO's issue with widebody lift will be interesting to watch. All the more so since moves by others (eg DL and US) are addding a bit of preasure.

Who is online