fraspotter
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When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:46 am

I heard here on a.net that the old US Air Force Base across the runways from FRA will host charter flights this summer for the world cup. After this is finished, does anyone here have any idea when they will start demolishing the old buildings and start work on the new T3 and runway? I've seen the winning design on the Fraport website and it looks AWESOME!!!  hyper 
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UA933
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:01 am

Who'll move to T3? LH and Star?
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HanginOut
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting UA933 (Reply 1):
Who'll move to T3? LH and Star?

No. IIRC, LH and Star will likely stay put (perhaps expanding to take over all of T1 and T2. All of the non-Star or non-LH affiliated airlines and new airlines would be located at T3.
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EK413
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:50 pm

I believe work was planned to commence sometime this year on Terminal 3 & the NEW parrallel runway...BUT if I recall correctly last I heard the NEW runway was under a lot of controverciy over the location of the runway & the flight bath being directly in line with the industrial area of downtown Frankfurt.....Lets not forget the Green's protesting over the 1000's of trees that will be removed TOO for the construction of the NEW runway.....

EK413
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johnnybgoode
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 2):
No. IIRC, LH and Star will likely stay put (perhaps expanding to take over all of T1 and T2. All of the non-Star or non-LH affiliated airlines and new airlines would be located at T3.

this has been my first thought as well, owing to the fact that LH's operations are directly next to their head office and flight crew facilities. however, word has it that LH is looking for an all-new facility for itself and its partners similar to the facilities it uses at MUC.

this would require LH either to move its flight crew facilities to the new location or always move them around the entire airport, which obviously seemed to be a bad way.

besides, the T3 would be so large it would be hard for all non-Star carriers to fill it. after all, LH and its partners contribute two thirds of all traffic at FRA.

rgds
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Glareskin
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting FRAspotter (Thread starter):
I've seen the winning design on the Fraport website and it looks AWESOME!!!

Show it to us!!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:00 pm

 
BHMNONREV
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 4):
this has been my first thought as well, owing to the fact that LH's operations are directly next to their head office and flight crew facilities. however, word has it that LH is looking for an all-new facility for itself and its partners similar to the facilities it uses at MUC.

this would require LH either to move its flight crew facilities to the new location or always move them around the entire airport, which obviously seemed to be a bad way.

besides, the T3 would be so large it would be hard for all non-Star carriers to fill it. after all, LH and its partners contribute two thirds of all traffic at FRA.

Moving *A to T3 would not make much sense from LH's point of view, for the reasons you mentioned. All of their operations infrastructure (offices, training, maintenance, cargo, etc) are already on the north side of the field.

I think a T1/T2 combination would make the most sense, with all Star Intercontinental flights operating from T2 (A380 compatible), with everything else from T1. This would enable Star to eliminate the remote parking which is such a pain at FRA, leading to missed connections and such. Building another train between T1 and T2 past security would ease connections tremendously. A passenger could check in for a flight at either terminal and once thru security could be at the gate within 10-15 minutes.

I don't think OneWorld, Skyteam, and other non-aligned carriers will have any trouble filling T3. In addition, the German charter market is quite strong, so if T3 is built in stages I believe it would work out real well..
 
kaitak744
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 7):
Moving *A to T3 would not make much sense from LH's point of view, for the reasons you mentioned. All of their operations infrastructure (offices, training, maintenance, cargo, etc) are already on the north side of the field.

That's is not the point. Its like BA not moving to LHR T5.

LH is based in FRA, and therefore, they naturally get to pick over the other airlines where they want to go. LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal. Why would LH stay in an old terminal and give a brand new terminal to their competition? It make no sense. LH will be in the new T3.
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 7):
Building another train between T1 and T2 past security would ease connections tremendously.

One can already take the train between terminals after security. Each train has two wagons. The doors of one wagon open airside and of the other wagon landside (different platforms). One is inside passport control, the other is outside passport control. I think they are both inside security.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal. Why would LH stay in an old terminal and give a brand new terminal to their competition? It make no sense. LH will be in the new T3.

T1 + T2 have about twice the capacity of T3. LH + partners are about 2/3 of the FRA traffic. Even without the partners, T3 would be small for LH. I don't see taking the train all the way around the airport to make *A connections. I think the non-*A carriers will get T3. However, I'm just speculating. I have no inside information.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
One can already take the train between terminals after security. Each train has two wagons. The doors of one wagon open airside and of the other wagon landside (different platforms). One is inside passport control, the other is outside passport control. I think they are both inside security.

I thought the train from T1 to T2 was outside of security but the T1 internal (Concourse A to Concourse B/C) was past security and passport control...

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
LH is based in FRA, and therefore, they naturally get to pick over the other airlines where they want to go. LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal.

Newer and advanced, no question. But while T1 dates to the mid-70's it has been constanly upgraded and expanded and is still a nice facility (Concourse C notwithstanding) and combined with T2 would make the ideal operation for Star. It would allow all Intercontinental flights to operate from T2 where they are more ideally suited, moving all smaller European flights to a reconfigured T1. In addition, with the new north runway coming online they will be a in a prime position to take full advantage from a flight operations standpoint, something T3 operators will not be able to do.

Everything I have read says that LH/*A will be in T1 and at least a portion of if not all of T2. I would be very surprised to see anything different..
 
windshear
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 6):

 eyepopping  Wow!
That was some daring move! A runway so close to major roads and by the looks of it, the USAF part of FRA would get axed...

Amazing plans!

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Knightsofmalta
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:37 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
LH is based in FRA, and therefore, they naturally get to pick over the other airlines where they want to go. LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal. Why would LH stay in an old terminal and give a brand new terminal to their competition? It make no sense. LH will be in the new T3.

Isn't that a bit naive? I doubt if LH's decision as to which terminal to operate out of in FRA depends on which is the prettier building!
 
zvezda
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:10 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 10):

I thought the train from T1 to T2 was outside of security but the T1 internal (Concourse A to Concourse B/C) was past security and passport control...

It's the same train.
 
kaitak744
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 12):
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
LH is based in FRA, and therefore, they naturally get to pick over the other airlines where they want to go. LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal. Why would LH stay in an old terminal and give a brand new terminal to their competition? It make no sense. LH will be in the new T3.

Isn't that a bit naive? I doubt if LH's decision as to which terminal to operate out of in FRA depends on which is the prettier building!

I am comparing the situation to LHR and BA and T5. I know they moved to T5 to be centralized in one terminal, but nevertheless, BA's competition is stuck in the old T1, T3, and T4. Doesn't this give BA an operational advantage?

I was thinking same with LH and the new T3. The size has not been finalized yet. And plus, this terminal could be completely custom built by LH to have better LH lounges and ect.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 14):
I am comparing the situation to LHR and BA and T5. I know they moved to T5 to be centralized in one terminal, but nevertheless, BA's competition is stuck in the old T1, T3, and T4. Doesn't this give BA an operational advantage?

Using T5 at LHR for BA is not a fair comparison to the situation at FRA. T5 is light years ahead of anything else that LHR has to offer in terms of facilities for the passenger and operational effectiveness for BA, however T5 ultimately does not do much for the OneWorld alliance.

The only way a new facility would benefit LH/*A at FRA is if they were to build a mid-field terminal operation with two sets of parallels, similar to what you see in ATL, CDG, DEN, DFW, LAX, etc. Any arrivals on the new runway destined for T3 will have to cross two active runways at some point, lest they taxi around either the east or west sides of the 7/25's, creating an operational nightmare. And as someone noted earlier in this topic, LH/Star controls 2/3 of the traffic at FRA, so if anything moving all other carriers to T3 offers an operational advantage for Star, and the passenger advantage/convenience aspect of T3 is minimal at best.

Besides, with all of the DB/ICE long-distance trains which are aligned/code-share with LH from right outside T1, LH/*A is right where they need to be.

Star may or may not be the best alliance out there right now, but IMHO they are in the most enviable position in Europe at FRA than is Skyteam at CDG or OneWorld at LHR...
 
N1120A
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 3):
Lets not forget the Green's protesting over the 1000's of trees that will be removed TOO for the construction of the NEW runway.....

The enviros did get to keep the historically protected forest they were originally planning on using

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 4):
LH's operations are directly next to their head office

That would be a neat trick, seeing as LH's Headquarters is in Koeln.  wink 

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 8):
LH with no question would pick the newer, more advanced terminal. Why would LH stay in an old terminal and give a brand new terminal to their competition? It make no sense. LH will be in the new T3.

It is also smaller than the one they have now. LH's concourses in T1 are absolutely beautiful and custom built for their needs. I am sure that they will get whatever they want done to them done if they so choose, but they are not moving anywhere.
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airbusA346
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:05 am

T1 is getting renovated any way, so why move.

Tom.
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johnnybgoode
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
That would be a neat trick, seeing as LH's Headquarters is in Koeln.

technically, you are correct. nonetheless, it seems you are not entirely familiar with LH and their offices. some departments (mainly finance and legal) are still located in Cologne, and it is LH's place of jurisdiction. nonetheless, the seat of the CEO and all other main departments (operations, network, IT, HR, service, etc.) is located in FRA. most of all LH staff, and all relevant executives with the exception of the CFO, are located in FRA.

rgds
daniel
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cschleic
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 10):
I thought the train from T1 to T2 was outside of security but the T1 internal (Concourse A to Concourse B/C) was past security and passport control...

When I rode on it last year from T1 to T2 and back, it was outside of security...at least the car in which I rode was outside. The other car on the train didn't open to the platform on which I stood, but it wasn't very clear how the other car worked or how you boarded it. I didn't take any flights to or from T2, but still had access to the train. In T2, from the train platform there were stairs down to a level above the ticket lobby but below the food court.
 
louA340
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 11):
Wow!
That was some daring move! A runway so close to major roads and by the looks of it

Your right, it even looks like parts of the taxi way passes over that road. Will the new runway be elevated or somthing? Or is that a newly planned road that will be constructed to pass under it as a tunnel?
RyEng
 
HT
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 10):
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 9):
One can already take the train between terminals after security. Each train has two wagons. The doors of one wagon open airside and of the other wagon landside (different platforms). One is inside passport control, the other is outside passport control. I think they are both inside security.

I thought the train from T1 to T2 was outside of security but the T1 internal (Concourse A to Concourse B/C) was past security and passport control...

It´s simple: The eastern-most car is "sterile area" (security wise) while the western-most car is "public"; this is true for both directions. Passengers use different, physically seperated platforms.

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 2):
Quoting UA933 (Reply 1):
Who'll move to T3? LH and Star?

No. IIRC, LH and Star will likely stay put (perhaps expanding to take over all of T1 and T2. All of the non-Star or non-LH affiliated airlines and new airlines would be located at T3.

That has been the understanding.
All the important traffic interchanges (both railway stattions) are located close to T1 and T2, while T3 is said to receive "only" its own exit from motorway A5.
It is highly doubtful if LH/*A would let go its very good position close to the railway stations (especially as LH is code-sharing on some trains).

I agree with the opinion expressed by others here, who see a chance that LH/*A expands terminal use from T1 further into T2 by taking over concourse D (and eventually also Concourse E).

Primary tenants of T3 were thought to be
a) low-volume carriers
b) all charter operators outside *A (HF, AB, LT to name the most important german ones)
c) maybe SkyTeam and/or OneWorld, in case they can be persuaded by FRAPORT

-HT
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BHMNONREV
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 21):
It´s simple: The eastern-most car is "sterile area" (security wise) while the western-most car is "public"; this is true for both directions. Passengers use different, physically seperated platforms.

Thanks for the clarification. I remember the the cars on the train having the doors which opened on different sides in T1, depending on where they were in relation to the terminal (secure/not secure).

I also remember not being able to get to the sterile area of T2 by train. As another poster mentioned the station at T2 is at the front of the builiding, upstairs from the ticketing lobby. I think the only way you can get to and from T2 from T1 (past security) is the narrow walkway at the end of Concourse C which leads to Concourse D (T2). But that is a very good walk...
 
N1120A
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 18):
technically, you are correct. nonetheless, it seems you are not entirely familiar with LH and their offices. some departments (mainly finance and legal) are still located in Cologne, and it is LH's place of jurisdiction. nonetheless, the seat of the CEO and all other main departments (operations, network, IT, HR, service, etc.) is located in FRA. most of all LH staff, and all relevant executives with the exception of the CFO, are located in FRA.

I am familiar, but the HQ is in Koeln.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
HT
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 22):
I also remember not being able to get to the sterile area of T2 by train. (..) I think the only way you can get to and from T2 from T1 (past security) is the narrow walkway at the end of Concourse C which leads to Concourse D (T2).

In T2 there is a walkway from the sterile Terminal area to the "sterile" car. Alighting at T1-B/C and T1-A is possible and you stay in a sterile area. It works also the other way ´round.
However, usually somewhere in the process there is a passport check as one switches between Schengen and Non-Schengen areas.

IIRC (but my experience was a while ago), the "sterile" car belongs to Schengen-area, but anybody please feel free to correct me on this.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
fraT
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:17 pm

Right now there are still a lot of non Star airlines operating from T1. If all of them would move to T2 and the new T3 than Star and LH would have enough space for the coming years. As said before, the chances for LH moving out of T1 are close to 0.
T2 or T3 could become a charter terminal although I think that both of them are/will be to big for that.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 24):
In T2 there is a walkway from the sterile Terminal area to the "sterile" car. Alighting at T1-B/C and T1-A is possible and you stay in a sterile area. It works also the other way ´round.
However, usually somewhere in the process there is a passport check as one switches between Schengen and Non-Schengen areas.

IIRC (but my experience was a while ago), the "sterile" car belongs to Schengen-area, but anybody please feel free to correct me on this.

Thanks for the info, I will be in FRA in several weeks and with the long layover I will have to do some re-exploring of one of my favorite airports.

Too bad Dr. Mueller's is no longer around. Could kill quite a bit of time there...  Big grin
 
fraspotter
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RE: When Will FRA Start Work On T3?

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting LouA340 (Reply 20):
it even looks like parts of the taxi way passes over that road. Will the new runway be elevated or somthing? Or is that a newly planned road that will be constructed to pass under it as a tunnel?

There will be an overpass for the planes to taxi over the autobahn going to/from the runway. Kind of like at DFW. It will look really cool once it is all finished! Big grin
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