planemaker
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DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:44 pm

ATI obtained a copy of DLs’ new tentative pilot deal and reports that it does not include provisions for planned 100-seater operations but allows for up to 200 aircraft with 76-seats.

The deal relaxes scope clause limits to 70-seat aircraft and permits as many as 200 76-seater to be added to the Delta Connection fleet starting from Jan 2007.

Other parts of the deal include:

- All of the 76-seat aircraft to be changed or limited to 70-seats if any mainline pilot is furloughed.

- Any operator of 70- to 76-seat aircraft to guarantee preferential hiring for furloughed mainline pilots (who will also be allowed to retain seniority).

Not incorporated in the tentative agreement is the provision for 100-seat aircraft included in Delta’s Section 1113 (c) motion to a US bankruptcy court.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
avconsultant
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:30 pm

Too bad this will not help DL once fuel exceeds $3.50/gal.
 
Delta4eva
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 1):
Too bad this will not help DL once fuel exceeds $3.50/gal.

Yeah, it won't help any airline either.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
DLKAPA
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 1):

When that happens everybody's screwed.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 3):
When that happens everybody's screwed.

Maybe not. Fuel would have to hit about $4.50 a gallon for US operational costs to be on par with existing European costs becaus of their extensive fee based system. We have some margin for error.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:30 pm

Don't forget, Jet-A prices are not the same as gasoline prices. Here at DFW, the price of Jet-A (for signatory airlines like DL, AA) is $2.08 per gallon. Jet fuel doesn't have all the taxes gasoline has. While the price of gasoline in the DFW area averages $2.76 per gallon, Dallas average is $2.86, Fort Worth average is $2.66.
 
bucky707
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Thread starter):
Not incorporated in the tentative agreement is the provision for 100-seat aircraft included in Delta’s Section 1113 (c) motion to a US bankruptcy court.

not true. In fact, included in the TA are pay rates for the mainline pilots to fly the CRJ-900, EMB-190 and EMB-195.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:22 pm

Gotta say that headline is really focussing on the main points of the new contracts  Yeah sure . Yes up to 200 76-seater is possible, but it would take DL a hell of a lot of time to ever get such a high number. If I understood the contract correctly, DL will be allowed to add 15 76-seaters each in 07 and 08, and from then on only 3 new 76-seaters if they get one new mainline plane as well. So, to get the full 200 76-seaters, DL would hence have to acquire 57 mainline jets, and even when you combine current 738 and 777 orders, you won't get that number. Of course, DL could order new planes, but with which money? And even if and when DL orders more planes, it will be many, many years before they would ever reach the total of 200 76-seaters, if ever. I still think DL's main focus will be a new 100-seater, even if those are flown by mainline pilots  Wink .
 
CRJ900
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:12 pm

Was the rise from 70 to (only) 76 seats per aircraft a hard-fought battle? Will it be hard to push it to 80 seats? Is the "76" number strategically chosen to eliminate the E190/E195 as a possible aircraft as they are big enough to fly as mainline?

What are the options, then?

One-class 76 seats @ 31 inch pitch: E170 and CRJ700. Both planes will be rather packed with this config, the CRJ700 loses some rear cargo hold space.

Two-class 76 seats: E175 and CRJ900. Both types will offer spacious seating with 32-34 inch pitch legroom in Y and possibility of adding more seats if scope clauses are extended to 80-86 seats.

E190-E195 and CRJ900X: too big for 76 seats...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
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ERJ170
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
What are the options, then?

I believe that is the E75 or the C705.
Aiming High and going far..
 
bucky707
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
So, to get the full 200 76-seaters,

To clarify, up to 200 aircraft that seat 70-76 seats can be outsourced. They could get 200 76 seaters, but that would mean getting rid of the 77 or so 70 seaters DCI is currently flying. 15 76 seaters are allowed in 07, 15 more in 08. To go above those numbers is when the 3 for 1 growth kicks in.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
I believe that is the E75 or the C705.

True. Both the E-175 and CRJ-705/900 would fit.

[Edited 2006-04-26 13:59:18]
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:05 pm

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 10):
To clarify, up to 200 aircraft that seat 70-76 seats can be outsourced. They could get 200 76 seaters, but that would mean getting rid of the 77 or so 70 seaters DCI is currently flying. 15 76 seaters are allowed in 07, 15 more in 08. To go above those numbers is when the 3 for 1 growth kicks in.

I see, thanks for the clarification. At least that makes the number of up to 200 76-seaters somewhat realistic if current 70-seaters are included in that total.
 
bucky707
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 11):
I see, thanks for the clarification. At least that makes the number of up to 200 76-seaters somewhat realistic if current 70-seaters are included in that total.

no problem.

FWIW, rumor has it DCI will be getting rid of a bunch of 50 seat RJs. They just are not cost efficient with fuel prices where they are.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 12):
FWIW, rumor has it DCI will be getting rid of a bunch of 50 seat RJs. They just are not cost efficient with fuel prices where they are.

I would certainly hope so, if that goes for CRJs, and not necessarily the ERJs, as they are way more comfortable than the CRJs, and should also have a somewhat lower CASM, IIRC. Would certainly expect that most of the CRJ cuts would happen, given how dissatisfied DL is with them.
Btw, are the ERJ-135s here to stay? Except for MCO-EYW, I'm not sure if they actually have any advantage over the ERJ-145 on intra-Florida routes, and outside probably not anyway.
 
SongStar
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 1):
Too bad this will not help DL once fuel exceeds $3.50/gal.

Have to agree with other post here...This would not be a Delta only problem...UAL's current plan is for oil at about $50 / bbl....wouldn't help them either...

Sounds like more of just a jab at Delta...kick 'em while their down...how much longer does this crap go on? Find someone else to pick on...

Sometimes this board resembles an elementary school playground....


ss

( 4 more days   )

[Edited 2006-04-26 16:01:56]
 
positiverate
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:25 pm

Here's the actual language of the TA vis a vis Scope; nothing new, just their text:

DCI may operate 15 76 seat jets in 2007, and 30 in 2008 and beyond.

Additional 76 seat jets may be added at the ratio of 3 76 seat jets for every 1 mainline aircraft added to the fleet in 2007 and beyond.

DCI MUST convert 76 seat jets to 70 seat jets if a pilot is furloughed aftrer 4/14/06.

DCI may continue to fly 70 seat jets, and the total of 70 and 76 seat jets may not exceed 200 aircraft.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:09 am

DL hasn't resolved many of the RJ leases and part of the reason has undoubtedly been getting a pilot deal... it is obvious DL wants to move toward more 70 seaters. Keep in mind that OH was one of the 1st CRJ operators and has some aircraft that have now reached their design life.

While DL clearly wants alot of flexibility w/ being able to deploy larger 70 seat jets, the only aircraft that comes close to offering passenger comfort levels competitive w/ mainline jets is the EMB 170/90 family while still offering comparable seat costs.

The DL pilot deal is clearly intended to provide a transition to more 70 seaters with a relatively small number of 70+ seaters flown by Delta Connection. DL is clearly looking at flying jets larger than that under mainline.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:30 am

A delta pilot posted this on anoter site. hope this is detaited enough.

• Pay cut of 14% from LOA #46 followed by annual pay raises starting January 1,
2007. Additional pay increases tied to Company financial performance
(protection against the Contract ’96 debacle).
• Limited authority to operate 71-76 seat DCI jets, provided that no pilot on the
current seniority list (Troy Kane and above) is placed on furlough. This
protection is not subject to a force majeure clause.
• There are no changes to any of our duty rigs or scheduling (except for Hawaii
reporting); our quality of life items.
• The MPPP will be terminated and the money will be placed in your account that
you control.
• Notes and Equity to return a substantial part of our concessions.
• Duration of 3.5 years (12/31/2009, same as LOA #46).
• The effective date of the agreement will be June 1, 2006 if the T/A is ratified and
is approved by the Bankruptcy Court.
The following is a summary of the T/A:


Scope:

• 76-seaters will be allowed at DCI, with strict limitations on numbers, and with
incentives for mainline growth.
• If the Company furloughs a pilot on the current seniority list (Troy Kane and
above), DCI cannot fly any of the 71-76 seat jets with more than 70 seats. In fact,
they must then physically remove the excess seats from ALL such aircraft for the
balance of this contract.
o Beginning January 1, 2007, DCI is allowed to operate fifteen jets
configured with 71-76 seats. They may operate these aircraft prior to this
date, but with a maximum of 70 seats.
o On January 1, 2008, DCI is allowed to operate an additional fifteen 71-76
seat jets.
o Additional 71-76 seaters can be added, but only on the basis of mainline
aircraft growth (three 71-76 seaters for one growth mainline aircraft).
• Delete minimum block hours and planned percentages.
• Delete designated flying block hours.
• Change in control provisions allow flexibility in Chapter 11, but preserve
essential protections in an airline-to-airline transaction during Chapter 11.
• Delete the required recall of all furloughed pilots by August 1, 2008.
• Delete the requirement to be at a 75 hour ALV in certain categories for 3 months
prior to furloughing. Maintain the three month furlough notice requirement.
Compensation:

• Composite hourly pay rates will remain at 14% below the LOA 46 rates for the
balance of 2006.
• On January 1, 2007, rates will be increased 1.5%.
• On January 1, 2008, rates will increase by at least 1.5%, and may increase up to
6% based on corporate financial performance.
• On January 1, 2009, rates will increase by at least 1.5% above the minimum 2008
rates, and may increase up to 6% above the actual 2008 rates, based on corporate
financial performance.
• On December 31, 2009 rates will increase another 1%.
• See attached minimum and maximum pay rate tables.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-190/CRJ-900 will be $95.70 on June 1,
2006 and subject to the above adjustments.
• The 12 year captain rate for the EMB-195 will be $112.50 on June 1, 2006 and
subject to the above adjustments.
• Delete night pay.
• International pay is $5.00/hr for captains and $3.00/hr for F/Os.
• Increase profit sharing pool divided among all employees from LOA #46 to a
15% payout at first dollar of pre-tax income; 20% payout on pre-tax income over
$1.5B divided proportional to W-2 income.
• Domestic per diem is $1.85/hr.
• International per diem is $2.40/hr.

Hotels

• Expanded hotel reviews and a stated preference for nationally branded hotels.
Relocation

• To be eligible for relocation at company expense, a pilot must move within 125
miles of his new base. Pilots who currently have a moving entitlement retain their
eligibility.
• Increase lump sum to cover miscellaneous moving expenses to $2000.
Vacations:

• Effective April 1, 2007, reduce the value of a vacation day to 3 hours.
• Effective April 1, 2007, delete the 6th week of vacation and reduce the vacation
accrual rate.
Administrative Flying

• Administrative pilots may fly a rotation from open time without a line pilot being
paid for the rotation. The rotation may only be removed within 96 hours of report
and, in most instances, it must have gone through at least one PCS run prior to
removal by the administrative pilot.
Training

• Improve MEC oversight of CQ material preparation.
• Clarification of pay time for distributed training that is not on a CD, but could be
in another form of media, such as a workbook.
Hours of Service

• Sixty minute report for flight segments to/from Hawaii.
• Increase DBMS displays for flight hour and PWA limitations.
Sick Leave

• The new sick leave year will be from June 1 – May 31 for all pilots.
• Pilots in their 9th year and above will have 240 sick leave hours each year.
• On a rolling 3 year basis, a pilot will have 240 hours at full pay and the rest at
75% pay.
• Pilots returning from disability will have their full pay sick leave credit hours
recharged (once in a career).
Scheduling

• The company must comply with the TLV limits commencing April 1, 2007.
• A Delta jumpseat reservation will now satisfy the commuting policy.
General

• Flow back jumpseat to be negotiated with Alaska, Northwest and Continental
immediately and with US Airways and United beginning January 1, 2007.

• A flight attendant jumpseat may be occupied by a pilot, but only if it is the only
seat available on the aircraft and no flight attendant (working or not) has
requested the jumpseat.
• Yearly non-rev pass fee of 50 dollars maximum, and no more than other
employees.
• Pilots on the FOQA monitoring team will be covered under Section 24 J. 2. and
not subject to GS charges to ALPA.
• LOA #52 establishes the Civil Reserve Air Fleet procedures.
• Financial advisory fees and major ALPA costs paid by Company.
Medical and Dental Benefits

• Increase premiums for future retired pilots and survivors prior to Medicare
eligibility.
• Provide “access only” medical coverage post-Medicare eligibility.
• Provide for modifications to medical insurance to capture savings from the Health
Coverage Tax Credit.
Retirement, Insurance, and Disability and Survivor Benefits

• Money Purchase Pension Plan accounts will be distributed to individual pilots for
self-directed investment.
• Defined Contribution (DC) Plan contribution of a flat 9% to all pilots after Pilot
Defined Benefit (DB) Plan termination.
• Maintain company 2% 401(k) cash contribution.
• ALPA will not oppose DB Plan termination.
• Implement Roth 401(k) accounts and permit contributions up to the IRS limits for
all plans.
• Disabled pilots receive disability income until mandatory FAA retirement age.
• Disabled pilots will continue to receive DC Plan and 401(k) contributions at two
times their disability benefit. This provides a retirement benefit for a disabled
pilot for the years of service while disabled.
• Income offset once a pilot on long-term disability (LTD) achieves outside income
that equals LTD income.
• Limited neutral medical examiner process for continued LTD eligibility.
• $500,000 life insurance (with guaranteed insurability) replaces current survivor
annuity beginning 1/1/08.
• Life insurance decreases to $250,000 on retirement, and then steps down in
$50,000 segments during first five years of retirement, ending with the current
$10,000 benefit.
• Company authorized to expend up to $60 million per year from the D&S Trust to
pay legally permissible pilot expenses. Establish D&S Trust re-funding
mechanism.
• Amend D&S Plan to assure that only persons who are or have been on the
seniority list (and their survivors and beneficiaries) are eligible to be beneficiaries
of the D&S Trust.
• Amend D&S Plan to clarify that in the event of DB Plan termination, disability
benefits are offset by calculated (not actual) retirement benefits.

• Clarify MPPP offset in the event of DB Plan termination.
Bankruptcy Protection Covenant, ALPA Claim, and Notes



• Process established to repair and improve employee-management relations.
Delta’s Section 1113 (c) demands that were not achieved

• 19.5% pay cut with no pay raises
• Delete 401 (k) company contribution
• Five year duration
• Delete all furlough protections
• No financial returns
• $325 million concessions per year and no recognition of DB Plan termination
• 79-seat jet DCI aircraft
• Delete the change of control provisions
• Establish a sick leave reliability program and impose draconian sick leave terms
• Minutes under offset by minutes over
• 15 minute release per duty period
• No captain on relief crew for flights over 12 hours
• Change max scheduled duty time

• Change duty period minimum
• Delete duty period average
• Delete duty period credit (1 for 2)
• Reduce rotation credit (1 for 3.5)
• Delete OJI
• Increase category freeze
• 100 seater upgrade restrictions
• Change trip assignment ladder
• Reserves assignment up to ALV+15
• Delete pay back X-days for reserve
• Reduce inverse assignment pay
• Establish flight attendant satellite base parking without benefit to pilots
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
ATLTraveler
Posts: 43
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RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:24 am

That would be a great deal in any industry. Do other legacy airlines have a similar pay/beneifts structure?
 
ftrguy
Posts: 347
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:17 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircr

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 17):
• If the Company furloughs a pilot on the current seniority list (Troy Kane and
above), DCI cannot fly any of the 71-76 seat jets with more than 70 seats. In fact,
they must then physically remove the excess seats from ALL such aircraft for the
balance of this contract.
o Beginning January 1, 2007, DCI is allowed to operate fifteen jets
configured with 71-76 seats. They may operate these aircraft prior to this
date, but with a maximum of 70 seats.
o On January 1, 2008, DCI is allowed to operate an additional fifteen 71-76
seat jets.
o Additional 71-76 seaters can be added, but only on the basis of mainline
aircraft growth (three 71-76 seaters for one growth mainline aircraft).

In other words...
Pilots: If you furlough one of our "boys" were going to make you take seats out of your aircraft. You can't have these seats back until we, the pilots, say you can.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are the pilots telling the management how to configure their aircraft? Who the hell cares if the plane has 70 or 76 seats? If you take seats out of an airplane you don't make as much money. The airline loses money and has to furlough even more pilots. All the pilots should be worried about is safely flying an aircraft from point A to point B. LET THE MANAGEMENT WORRY ABOUT WHAT'S ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COCKPIT DOOR.

Things like this are the reason unions have served their good and its now time to go. Oil prices aren't the only reason the airlines are losing money. These ridiculous union contracts are running these companies into the ground. In 2005 (according to the Dept of Labor) 12.5% of workers in the US are unionized. You don't hear of the other 87.5% of people threatening to kill their company, disrupt the national economy, and put thousands of their fellow employees on the street just to get their way (i.e. previous airline strikes, NY City Transit worker strike and on and on...) Look at the auto industry (also heavily unionized). How are they doing? How many thousands of workers have they laid off because they simply can't afford them anymore because of their union contracts. I'd bet some of those recently laid off workers would rather work for less money and benefits than have no job at all. It reminds me of the saying "don't bite the hand that feeds you." Eventually the hand is going to go away and now what do you do?

I've heard that pilots pay somewhere around $5000 a year in union dues. With Delta's 6000 pilots, that's $30,000,000 a year in union dues, and that's just one airline. What in the hell does DALPA need $30M a year to run their business. Why don't the unions do something for their people and lower their dues, cut their own salaries and share the hard times that they've helped to create. It will be a cold day in hell when that happens though.

I know I'm being an armchair CEO here but... As a military pilot who is looking at getting out and going into the airlines I'm having serious doubts. While I could make more money in the civilian world it doesn't seem worth it if I have to put up with all this crap. All I care about is flying. If I have to get paid less to do it, but not have to put up with losing my job, union contracts, oil prices, etc, I'll do it. Just having that view from the best office in the world is all I care about.




Ready for flaming...  box 
 
Seafleet
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:05 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:41 am

I am with Ftrguy on this one.
I find it just amazing that the pilots have such power to virtually control what planes Delta operates on what routes.
Since when have company drivers dictated what vehicles the company operates whether it be planes, trucks, or buses.
Somewhere down the line Delta management has been exceedingly weak to let this situation develop.

Asbestos suit applied for.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting Seafleet (Reply 20):
Since when have company drivers dictated what vehicles the company operates whether it be planes, trucks, or buses.

Unions have been doing this for years. Newspaper truck drivers, garbage truck drivers, drivers for movie studios, etc., etc.. It's ridiculous and ends up costing jobs or closing companies down completely. Newspapers have been closed down forever due to striking delivery van drivers who were getting paid way more than you would even imagine ($75k a year in the early 1990s in the case of one new york paper).
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:22 pm

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 19):
LET THE MANAGEMENT WORRY ABOUT WHAT'S ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COCKPIT DOOR.

Frtguy, let me help you out a bit.

1. Any contract that is of any value from a pilot's perspective has to be expansive enough to span a range of economic variability over its lifetime that has been heretofor unseen. Retroactive changes rarely take place.

2. In Delta's case, only about 7 days prior to strike vote per USA Today (we can do the search if nec), they found 1,000...yes, 1,000 mid level management jobs that could be eliminated in leaning the airline. Song was a total kneejerk, management failure. In 1999, after the highest profit year in UAL history and for the airlines as a whole, UAL invested hundreds of millions in a fractional jet program that had nothing to do with the business plan of running an airline. There are a plethora of other historically bad calls, and please remember that most people on the Boards of Directors at the airlines know about as much about being a dairy farmer as running an airline. It's just a CEO exchange system...

2a. Airline tickets are taxed at a higher rate than cigarettes, and that $$ must be paid to the govt.

2b. An airline ticket now, corrected for inflation, is the single best value in the US economy.

2c. Ticket prices must therefore be adjusted upward another 30% or so as of this most recent fuel spike for the airlines to break even.

3. Pilot hiring and firing is on a seniority, not merit, basis. Therefore, the junior man on the list loses his job when items in #2 above occur. You are "in front of the door", as you say, so as things fall apart you just do your job - you don't have a dog in the fight, other than your contract.

4. As the airline shrinks, the idea is to keep pilots employed by requiring more, smaller a/c, and keep the seniority list in tact, as opposed to allowing a subcontracted regional operator to come in and fly the same a/c for 1/2 the pay. Without these protections, a potential new guy like yourself could be furloughed after 2 years or so with an airline, and then you must start your entire career all over.

5. No airline in the US has ever shrunken itself in to profitability.

6. I'm definitely not anti management; I think CAL is doing a great job, for ex, b/c they are a lean company, and have leadership that is concered about the long term viability of the airline as opposed to day to day stock price. WN has obviously done a great job.

6a. What is common about both of these airlines? They have defined a business model, and stuck to it.
 
panamair
Posts: 3767
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
In Delta's case, only about 7 days prior to strike vote per USA Today (we can do the search if nec), they found 1,000...yes, 1,000 mid level management jobs that could be eliminated in leaning the airline.

Get the story straight - it might have been announced 7 days prior to the strike vote but the 1,000 number had already been targeted as part of the overall layoff of 9,000 employees (throughout the company) by the end of 2007 - a plan they had already devised going into Ch.11 in September 2005. Why the delay then? It takes time to actually formulate the details in terms of which positions would go and what the backfill plans would be....
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
I'm definitely not anti management; I think CAL is doing a great job, for ex, b/c they are a lean company, and have leadership that is concered about the long term viability of the airline as opposed to day to day stock price.

This statement in principle, counters your following point:

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
4. As the airline shrinks, the idea is to keep pilots employed by requiring more, smaller a/c, and keep the seniority list intact, as opposed to allowing a subcontracted regional operator to come in and fly the same a/c for 1/2 the pay. Without these protections, a potential new guy like yourself could be furloughed after 2 years or so with an airline, and then you must start your entire career all over.

You congratulate CAL management despite doing exactly what you despise, the playing of one union against another for matters of growth as evidenced by replacing the bottom 1/4 of Xjet pilots with cheaper labor (CHQ). What's most ironic is that many of the current CAL pilots began their careers at Xjet. Also ironic are these same pilots and ALPA vilifying JBLU pilots for lowering the bar on pay rates.
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1229
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 22):
What is common about both of these airlines? They have defined a business model, and stuck to it.

And, ironically enough, Gordon Bethune (Who wrote CO's plan) and Herb Kelleher (Who obviously wrote WN's plan) are purportedly good friends.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
H53Epilot
Posts: 151
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:18 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 25):
And, ironically enough, Gordon Bethune (Who wrote CO's plan) and Herb Kelleher (Who obviously wrote WN's plan) are purportedly good friends.

Ironically enough, Herb and Frank Lorenzo are partners on a restaurant chain and friends as well. Not kidding so I am not sure what being friends has to do with their business acumen.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
Get the story straight - it might have been announced 7 days prior to the strike vote but the 1,000 number had already been targeted as part of the overall layoff of 9,000 employees (throughout the company) by the end of 2007 - a plan they had already devised going into Ch.11 in September 2005. Why the delay then? It takes time to actually formulate the details in terms of which positions would go and what the backfill plans would be....

You won’t read it in USAToday but DL has long had one of the most productive workforces among legacy airlines and its management structure has also been one of the leanest. The elimination of many management jobs doesn’t mean DL is currently FAT just that they believe they can operate their airline with much fewer people. After all, DL is defining its strategy for years into the future. You don’t need thousands of people analyzing and developing plans when a credible plan has been developed. You now need people who execute against the plan very well. Very few organizations move between phases in the life cycles very well nor do they alter their workforces based on where they are in the organizational life cycle. DL has completed a major redefinition of its identify and now must execute against that plan if it is to accomplish those goals.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 19):
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why are the pilots telling the management how to configure their aircraft? Who the hell cares if the plane has 70 or 76 seats?

Uhh, the Delta pilots should care....it's their jobs that are being outsourced. You're kidding yourself if you think a 76 seat airliner isn't a mainline sized aircraft.

Heck, a few decades ago we had America West pilots on the America West seniority list flying Dash-8's around.

DALPA is essentially giving its blessing here on the outsourcing of more DELTA pilot jobs....they are qualifying it by saying that they don't want to see the 76 seaters replace existing mainline narrowbody capacity, but are willing to allow expansion at that level instead of at mainline.

I firmly believe that if there were no unions today, all domestic narrowbody flying would be outsourced to "regionals" or perhaps we should call them "aircraft crew providers". This is what managment sees in the future:
A name brand, with the aircraft staffed by firms who place the lowest bid for the work. It will become much like the merchant marine industry eventually....foreign workers who will work for nothing staffing the airplanes.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
Get the story straight - it might have been announced 7 days prior to the strike vote but the 1,000 number had already been targeted as part of the overall layoff of 9,000 employees (throughout the company) by the end of 2007 - a plan they had already devised going into Ch.11 in September 2005. Why the delay then? It takes time to actually formulate the details in terms of which positions would go and what the backfill plans would be....

Strange how it took until right up to the strike vote to figure it out...how long does it take to figure out that the "Assistant Manager of In Flight Color Publications" should have been canned at the same time the pilots took a 40% wage cut? Here's management theory...outsource it! Everything else has been, and the pilots werre targeted too...
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 24):
You congratulate CAL management despite doing exactly what you despise, the playing of one union against another for matters of growth as evidenced by replacing the bottom 1/4 of Xjet pilots with cheaper labor (CHQ). What's most ironic is that many of the current CAL pilots began their careers at Xjet. Also ironic are these same pilots and ALPA vilifying JBLU pilots for lowering the bar on pay rates.

You, my friend, need to get your facts straight.

1. Show me where I claimed any airline was contriving to the "playing of one union against another." I was responding about how pilots need to be as active as possible about how an airline is run.

2. CAL is growing about 4-5% per year, and has quite a few a/c scheduled for delivery and has taken several new 737s and ex ATA 757s this year alone, at least 1 new 777 in the next 8 months (which is worth more than the entire fleet of retired MD80s) and will be the 1st US customer for the 787. They are HIRING pilots at the rate of 64 per month right now, and ask any RJ pilot that just got hired by CAL or WN about how fortunate they feel.

3. CAL has no control over XJT pilots and cannot, under any terms, replace "the bottom 1/4" as you state. CAL owns the leases on these a/c and has stated they will take them back if XJT cannot lower their unit costs. XJT is its own company and it is incumbent upon their union, and management, to keep those pilots employed - not CAL's.

4. The most fundamental disconnect that laypersons such as yourself make on this issue is that most of the regional carriers are only work groups...They have no assets, no gates, etc, and most astute pilots at the regionals know they had better get some time and keep moving, or they are subject to being subcontracted. Having said that, I expect 1 or 2 regionals to become fairly firmly established as the weaker ones are eliminated, which will and has proven to be a valid career for a few.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
You won’t read it in USAToday but DL has long had one of the most productive workforces among legacy airlines and its management structure has also been one of the leanest.

Not during the Leo Mullin era. Mullin increased managements ranks like crazy....DL became extremely bloated at the top.
 
HS748
Posts: 621
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:01 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:38 am

The pilots should fly what they're told to fly. Giving in to their ridiculous demands is simply a case of the lunatics running the assylum.
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting HS748 (Reply 32):
The pilots should fly what they're told to fly

They do fly what they're told. The problem is that they've been furloughed and are having their jobs outsourced, essentially being told to pack it up and fly nothing.

Nothing rediculous in asking that the planes your company flies be flown by company employees. How would you feel about having your job outsourced?
 
flflyguy
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:26 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting ERAUgrad02 (Reply 17):
• Pilots in their 9th year and above will have 240 sick leave hours each year.

240 hours a year!?!?! At an average of 80 flying hours a month that would be 3 months off sick a year....with pay!!!!??? If you're that sick you shouldn't be flying.

As a point of reference, at AA I accrue 35 hours a year.

Perhaps there is somthing I don't understand about this. I hope so.
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.
 
PITA333
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:59 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:17 am

This entire story reminds me a lot of the PIT / US MidAtlantic Airlines deal. What ever happened to that?? Oh yeah, it FAILED.

Edited due to my poor grammar skills.  Smile

[Edited 2006-04-28 01:22:05]
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 31):
Not during the Leo Mullin era. Mullin increased managements ranks like crazy....DL became extremely bloated at the top.

While I will never defend Leo Mullin, there simply weren't any more DL VPs in relation to other airlines at the time. They did take huge gobbs of money, though. Remember, that Mullin represents the worst of the era of outside managers to run airlines. DL wasn't alone but they clearly chose someone who put the concept of corporate greed over the top of the industry, even if it was spread among a relatively small group of people.
 
bucky707
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting FLFlyGuy (Reply 34):
240 hours a year!?!?! At an average of 80 flying hours a month that would be 3 months off sick a year....with pay!!!!??? If you're that sick you shouldn't be flying.

that is not entirely correct. Sick leave will be 240 hours on a three year rolling bank. Sure, I could sick out of 240 hours this year, but that means for the next two years my sick time is used up.

Oh and by the way, three months off sick means you should not be flying? So I guess when I broke my leg some years ago and was out for about three months, I should have never come back??
 
flflyguy
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:26 pm

RE: DL Pilot Deal To Allow Up To 200 76-seat Aircraft

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:50 am

No...what I meant was if you CONSISTENTLY use 240 hours a year, you're pretty sick. That's what Long Term Disability is for.

If the 240 hours is on a 3 year bank, that's different. Still a lot, but way more reasonable than 240 each year, which was how I originally understood it to be. Guess I was wrong!
The views expressed are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.