User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2985
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:20 am

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...5&sok=&photo_nr=&prev_id=&next_id=

Why would this plane depart in a blizzard while others are grounded ???

Judging from the photo the storm looks pretty intense....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
Cadet57
Posts: 7174
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:02 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):

No idea, but whos to say that others arent grounded? Nice click thou, musta been cold...



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rudy Chiarello

Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Why would this plane depart in a blizzard while others are grounded ???



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Judging from the photo the storm looks pretty intense....

First off, how do you conclude that all the other flights were grounded?

Secondly, the terms "blizzard" and "intense" are subjective terms with respect to landing minimums, or in this case, takeoff minimums. Each airline has a set of Operations Specifications (Ops Specs) that details what it can/cannot do, as well as having tailored Jepp plates detailing the appropriate minimums

For takeoff, and depending upon what was approved in their Ops Specs, they could be taking off with the visibility as low as RVR 1600 feet, or RVR 600 feet. The aircraft also has to be properly de-iced, and any performance penalties associated with runway clutter have to be considered. It's a quite reasonable presumption that they successfully met all the requirements, and thus took off.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
B6JFKH81
Posts: 1982
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:35 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:36 am

Well, if the airport is open there is no limit to departing so long as you declare an "alternate departure airport" which will be above the landing minimums. The next problem would be if the departure control even has room for you to depart into their airspace.

Awesome pic though. There is nothing like an airport during a blizzard.  bigthumbsup 
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
airtran737
Posts: 3235
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:41 am

It's called the miracle of Type IV fluid. Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly. It can snow, and snow and it won't affect the aircrafts performance. Why do you ask? At a certain speed Type IV sheers off the wing, and takes all of the snow, rain, and ice with it, and all critical surfaces will be clean. Type IV usually has a two hour hold overtime, so usually if used the plane is off the ground before the holdover time expires.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
MD88Captain
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:50 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:53 am

He's not going without the required visibility and de-icing requirements. There is judgement involved sometimes, but AA doesn't run a shoddy operation. Trust the professional to make the safe decision. Either that or do not get on the aircraft.
 
richierich
Posts: 3307
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:37 am

While it is clearly snowing a lot, I don't know that it is a "blizzard". The picture doesn't tell the whole story - maybe visibility wasn't as bad as it looked.

Commercial airplanes take off in snow all the time, although it obviously complicates matters somewhat.
None shall pass!!!!
 
WhiteBirdFlyer
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:18 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:44 am

Well, the picture was taken at BOS, yes? As far as I can tell this is just a nice spring day at Logan.  Big grin Nothing unusual about the weather in the shot as far as I can tell.

But whatever the Ops Specs, fluids and conditions of departure, it really is a great shot!

Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer
WhiteBirdFlyer, currently near SFO
 
AirBuffalo
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 1:20 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:18 am

Also, telephoto lenses greatly exaggerate the amount of precipitation, especially when photographing something far away.

BS
 
Bobster2
Posts: 1523
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:04 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:32 am

The caption on the pictures says "February, 2003". It doesn't give a date. But there was a major blizzard in Boston known as "Presidents Day Storm of 2003" according to Wikipedia, dumping 27.8 inches of snow on Boston.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blizzard_of_2003

This is rather meaningless without knowing the photo date, but at least it did snow that month.  Smile
"I tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." Jim Morrison
 
stealth777
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:48 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:57 pm

Dont forget the conditions of the WN jet landing in MDW that overran the runway. I believe it was snowing a lot harder than the picture above. So if they could have done it (well the planes before them were able to do it) than the departure from BOS seems feasable.
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:21 pm

Why would they depart? Because the professional crew which has more than extensive training and experience has deemed the conditions acceptable for the flight to depart.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4492
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 8):
Also, telephoto lenses greatly exaggerate the amount of precipitation, especially when photographing something far away.

I agree that the photograph probably makes it look snowier than it was. It's like watching a baseball game when a slight rain is falling - television makes it look like hard rain, but they keep playing.

Being an Midwestern native, however, I've seen my share of snowy take-offs and landings.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:45 pm

It can't be an intense blizzard because you can see the aircraft in the picture. If aircraft stopped operating in that weather, we could all have a long winter holiday, as there would be no flights.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:52 pm

Because in a few thousand feet there are blue skies.
 
User avatar
ptharris
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):
Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly.

I've de-iced more than one aircraft in my time working for AS/QX back in "the day", and I've never heard anyone describe Type IV fluid that way. To the point and rather effective description. Thanks for the chuckle.  Big grin

Also, I think everyone is forgetting... this aircraft isn't landing. Yes, there is considerable amount of judgement call on making a decision to depart in any kind of adverse weather. However, remember that just about any aircraft can take off in just about any kind of weather other than a hurricane or tornado would be the exclusions. It's all about landing and having a safe "bail out" area in case something went wrong. If they'd landed in what the photo depicts as a blizzard, I'd say the pilot was freakin nuts. Since we really don't know the actual conditions for the day, runway condition, ATIS, etc. etc. I really don't think it's fair to say this was a dangerous or questionable take off.

That's my two cents. Sorry, no refunds. Big grin
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:58 pm

Although this was definitely a snowstorm, we have no idea if it was a "blizzard," or what the RVR might have been at the moment, or if this was a "long lens" shot that would have made the snow picture seem worse than it was.

In any event, takeoffs are different from landings. Think of it this way: You are pulling out of your driveway at 5mph when the "driveway visual range" suddenly drops to nothing; you just come to a stop. Take the opposite case, analogous to a landing, where you are exiting a freeway at 70mph and the visbilty suddenly goes to zip. You're now in a world of hurt. You can't just execute a missed "exit" and climb above any unseen hazards, ahead, because your car can't fly.
 
HBA
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:13 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:35 pm

Quoting AirBuffalo (Reply 8):
Also, telephoto lenses greatly exaggerate the amount of precipitation, especially when photographing something far away.

Exactly.. there is probably in excess of 1km of snow between lens and A/C which would exagerate the view.

Looks like you're from Buffalo where it really snows!!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:26 pm

It doesn't look like much snow to me. I don't know how many times I've departed from SVO with less visibility than that.
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:12 pm

The snow could look more compounded depending on how far the plane actually was from the photographer... ie, it may LOOK like its snowing like a blizzard- but it might not be. The snow on the ground indicates either there is relatively little snow, or it was the beginning of the storm. Either way, I dont think it was a problem.  Wink

-AA777
 
christiaan
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 3:17 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?i...5&sok=&photo_nr=&prev_id=&next_id=

Why would this plane depart in a blizzard while others are grounded ???

Judging from the photo the storm looks pretty intense....

SAS Departs the Scandinavian countries all winter, and summer (ha ha) in blizzard conditions, why not the rest of the airlines? Just kidding..
"Give me the luxuries of life and I will willingly do without the necessities" Frank Lloyd Wright 1932
 
sshank
Posts: 294
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:58 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:59 pm

What exactly is your concern? That he would have trouble locating the sky?

Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Why would this plane depart in a blizzard while others are grounded ???

Judging from the photo the storm looks pretty intense....
 
MesaMXORD
Posts: 176
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:05 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:14 pm

As previously stated there are soo many things company requirements, aircraft requirements, meteorological conditions that have to be met on top of the Captains decision.
MESA - fighting common sense one day at a time
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:00 am

If it were a blizzard, you wouldn't be able to see the airplane...
Chicks dig winglets.
 
airborn757300
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:21 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:13 am

I've seen aircraft take off in worse conditions than that picture. Agreed it's in the airline's Ops Specs. Also, very sweet shot tho.  bigthumbsup 
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:28 am

Not to mention, the picture was taken during low-light conditions no doubt. Thus, the shutter speed was probably set very slow, causing the amount of white you see as snow to be more intense.

Just my $0.02.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
virgin747
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 12:20 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:33 pm

I'm just surprised the picture made past A.net screeners.... I could see a long list of reasons for rejection had I taken it...
 
iwok
Posts: 979
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:35 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:45 pm

And don't forget, a little snow in the engines, PLUS the lower ambient air temperature help to boost the takeoff thrust quite a bit.

-iwok
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:58 pm

Excellent photo!

I wouldn't call this blizzard conditions. If it were, the snow would be moving in a more horizontal direction and that would be picked up by the slower shutter speed. Also, the distance the photographer is from the aircraft. If this were a blizzard, the photographer wouldn't have been able to get that clear of a photo from his distance.

Great replys everyone.  yes 

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 15):
Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 4):
Type IV is like squirting the wings and tail of an airplane with K-Y Jelly.

I've de-iced more than one aircraft in my time working for AS/QX back in "the day", and I've never heard anyone describe Type IV fluid that way. To the point and rather effective description. Thanks for the chuckle.

I was afraid of were this thread was headed after reading that remark. Big grin
Bring back the Concorde
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:12 pm

The other thing to consider besides the distance between the plane and the photographer is that if the snow is cold enough and the airplane isn't warm, any snow that hits isn't going to stick.

See it plenty of times up here.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5549
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 3):
Well, if the airport is open there is no limit to departing so long as you declare an "alternate departure airport" which will be above the landing minimums

OK, I am in IT and there is likely much I know about Enterprise Data Storage that many of you don't just as there is much about the aviation industry that I don't know and many of you do.
Having said that.. how can you have an "alternate departure airport".. either you can depart from the one you are at or you can't!!

Am prepared to be corrected on that point.

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 30):
OK, I am in IT and there is likely much I know about Enterprise Data Storage that many of you don't just as there is much about the aviation industry that I don't know and many of you do.
Having said that.. how can you have an "alternate departure airport".. either you can depart from the one you are at or you can't!!

Am prepared to be corrected on that point.

Most of the time, folks think about alternates strictly in terms of the destination airport, but they are sometimes also needed for the departure airport. At most airports, the landing minimums are higher (1/2 mile) than the takeoff minimums (1/4 mile), so if it's 1/4 mile and a flight suddenly has a problem necessitating a return, they can't get back into the airport they just departed from. The "takeoff alternate" serves as that place to go in such a situation, and there are limits on how far away it can be from the departure airport (no more than 1 hr. away for a twin, and 2 hrs. for a 3 or 4 engined aircraft).

Aircraft seldom have to actually divert to a takeoff alternate, but it does happen. I recall one Delta DFW-ATL flight departing one foggy morning years ago shelling an engine and landing in SHV (Shreveport, LA).

We (dispatchers) list any takeoff alternate on the dispatch release, or if the weather drops suddenly someplace, we also designate them via radio or ACARS.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: How Can This Plane Depart In A Blizzard?

Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Iwok (Reply 27):
And don't forget, a little snow in the engines, PLUS the lower ambient air temperature help to boost the takeoff thrust quite a bit.

I understand how cold air improves jet engine performance, but could someone explain how snow entering a jet engine improves its performance?

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos