DeltaSFO
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Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:18 am

This is not a good sign.

From the Cincinnati Enquirer:

A federal bankruptcy judge in New York City this afternoon ruled against Comair's bid to dump a contract with its flight attendants union.

The decision by Judge Adlai Hardin means the Erlanger-based carrier can't reject the contract in a effort to cut $8.9 million in costs. It throws into limbo cost cutting agreements with Comair's unionized pilots and mechanics, which are contingent on cuts from the airline's nearly 1,000 flight attendants.

In his decision, Hardin said because Comair had set the cuts for the flight attendants at $8.9 million in its concession deals with the other two unions, its talks with the flight attendants hadn't met the good faith standard required for a contract to be voided under bankrtupcy law.


http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...icle?AID=/20060426/BIZ01/304260019

[Edited 2006-04-27 02:20:09]
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COERJ145
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:00 am

This can't be good for the future of Comair.....But I am happy for the union.
 
TL8490
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:06 am

well all of the RJ's are officially for sale now....later Comair
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:19 am

So, since OH is owned by DL, DL can officially swap flying to other partners and shut OH down and liquidate if they wanted to, right? In theory, I think DL would actually prefer that. Therefore, they wouldn't have that financial burden of the highest paid DCI crews, who operationally, outside of CVG, are deplorable. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Comair, but unless you are flying Comair in and out of CVG, their operational statistics are embarrassing, and no one seems to really care to make any fixes. Especially Fred Butrell, Comair's President. I can't believe this guy was ever a fighter pilot. Just goes to show that you don't need many brains to be a pilot, much less a military pilot.

DL has been pretty happy with Republic and its subsidiaries, and they are booming with business, now having been selected to operate connection service for Continental instead of Expressjet. I hear they are building up a little fleet of more ERJ's and E70's, planning for a major market expansion, which in turn means a lot of dough for them and their people.

As for Comair, it looks like the light at the end of the tunnel for their survival is starting to flicker, and the Teamsters don't seem to be interested in exchanging the bulb.



OttoPylit
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:22 am

Very interesting. This should force Comair management to actually bargain in good faith, instead of simply just trying to take. What a concept that management should actually manage.

Of course, this could undermine the survival of Comair, but in reality the cuts they are asking from the FA's won't save Comair anyway. High fuel prices alone will easily cancel out the labor savings at Comair...ensuring that the economics of the 50 seat RJ remain in the toilet.
 
TL8490
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:36 am

Everyone is buying fuel at relatively the same price except for a few hedges....it is not the fuel...it is the expensive employees....they have no debt service ...they own nothing...the plans belong to DL....they are done...
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contr

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 3):
Just goes to show that you don't need many brains to be a pilot, much less a military pilot.

Couldn't disagree with you more strongly, especially your comment about military pilots. They are our nation's best and brightest, and they serve with courage and fidelity when they could end up flying commercial much sooner by going the civilian route.

Whatever your misgivings may be about ALPA and all of that stuff, don't make it personal. Delta has as fine a group of pilots as can be found at any airline on the face of the earth. And a higher percentage of them are ex-military than at other majors. That says a lot.

[Edited 2006-04-27 04:03:14]
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COERJ145
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 6):
Couldn't disagree with you more strongly, especially your comment about military pilots. They are our nation's best and brightest, and they serve with courage and fidelity when they could end up flying commercial much sooner by going the civilian route.

Whatever your misgivings may be about ALPA and all of that stuff, don't make it personal. Delta has as fine a group of pilots as can be found at any airline on the face of the earth. And a higher percentage of them are ex-military than at other majors. That says a lot.

I couldn't have said it better.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 6):
Couldn't disagree with you more strongly, especially your comment about military pilots. They are our nation's best and brightest, and they serve with courage and fidelity when they could end up flying commercial much sooner by going the civilian route.

Whatever your misgivings may be about ALPA and all of that stuff, don't make it personal. Delta has as fine a group of pilots as can be found at any airline on the face of the earth. And a higher percentage of them are ex-military than at other majors. That says a lot.

Geesh, calm down. As a pilot myself and military veteran myself, you are not telling me anything I don't already know, so don't think you are. I have no doubt our nations military pilots are the best in the world, and I do believe that Delta's pilots are some of the best out there.

I was criticizing one man, Fred Butrell, who is a horrible businessman. He sucked as president of DCI and he sucks as president of Comair. And being a pilot and having worked or been around pilots, both military and civilian, my entire life, I can say earnestly, its not rocket surgery! It does not take a load of brains to become a pilot. I know some pilots who are brilliant, and I know some pilots who are dumber than a brick. And anyone who is a pilot can agree with me, they all know someone like that. If they don't, their lying.


Apparently, you don't catch sarcasm too well.



OttoPylit
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DeltaSFO
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
As a pilot myself and military veteran myself, you are not telling me anything I don't already know, so don't think you are. I have no doubt our nations military pilots are the best in the world, and I do believe that Delta's pilots are some of the best out there.

Then don't disparage them.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
I was criticizing one man, Fred Butrell, who is a horrible businessman. He sucked as president of DCI and he sucks as president of Comair. And being a pilot and having worked or been around pilots, both military and civilian, my entire life, I can say earnestly, its not rocket surgery! It does not take a load of brains to become a pilot. I know some pilots who are brilliant, and I know some pilots who are dumber than a brick. And anyone who is a pilot can agree with me, they all know someone like that. If they don't, their lying.

As a private pilot myself, I agree that there are some guys out there who shouldn't be flying, but I highly doubt you'll find very many of them at Delta. No, it's not rocket surgery, but the act of operating jet powered aircraft is very complex, and you can't be an idiot and fly safely at the highest levels of professional flight. It simply requires too much situational awareness for any idiot to be able to do it. If that were not the case, it wouldn't be so hard to get a flying job at a major.

Butrell may not be the best businessman--I agree with you that he hasn't done a whole lot of great things for DCI or Comiar--but unless you've flown with him, you just sound like another bitter ground employee when you make comments about his flying ability or intelligence. Don't hate.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
Apparently, you don't catch sarcasm too well.

Actually, I think you don't throw it too well. You were very partisan and confrontational in several of the threads regarding the latest round of DALPA concessions, so one can only assume that you really mean what you say and you've got an axe to grind with the Delta pilots.
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OttoPylit
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 9):
Then don't disparage them.

I didn't disparage Delta pilots, you brought that up. Nor did I disparage military pilots. I just said that it doesn't take that much to do it, and its true. Unless you have worked as closely as I have with military pilots and actually know how you fly yourself, its very easy to see that it doesn't take much.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 9):
As a private pilot myself, I agree that there are some guys out there who shouldn't be flying, but I highly doubt you'll find very many of them at Delta. No, it's not rocket surgery, but the act of operating jet powered aircraft is very complex, and you can't be an idiot and fly safely at the highest levels of professional flight. It simply requires too much situational awareness for any idiot to be able to do it

But apparently, you do have "idiots" that get airline jobs and do it. Otherwise, you would never see NTSB or FAA reports that contribute the cause(s) of some air crashes as pilot error. I'm not saying all pilots are perfect, as we all make errors of some form or another, but you have to be much more careful and attentive when peoples lives are on the line, and we can't say that about a few pilots. Including a few Delta pilots even.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 9):
Butrell may not be the best businessman--I agree with you that he hasn't done a whole lot of great things for DCI or Comiar--but unless you've flown with him, you just sound like another bitter ground employee when you make comments about his flying ability or intelligence. Don't hate.

I ain't hatin. LOL But its apparent that he has done nothing good for DCI or Comair. In that respect, I don't need to fly with the guy for that to be proven, its in his record. From what I've read, you sound like another bitter ground employee who does not recognize failure when he sees it. Buttrell=Failure. He wouldn't even be there if they didn't need a scapegoat for the Comair scheduling debacle last year and made Randy Rademacher the sacrificial lamb.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 9):
You were very partisan and confrontational in several of the threads regarding the latest round of DALPA concessions, so one can only assume that you really mean what you say and you've got an axe to grind with the Delta pilots.

Yea, and I don't remember you chiming in with your two cents. I, however, have a hard time seeing why one group of employees should have the decision to determine if thousands of other people should have a job. You may not need a job to get by, but some of us have families, including the expensive hobby of flying, and would like to continue supporting these, and not have our futures dictated by a group of employees who demanded a bloated paycheck in 2001 when the economy was already heading into the crapper. Apparently, you don't care about your job, but some of us do.



OttoPylit
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Tango-Bravo
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Thread starter):
This is not a good sign.

As in "not a good sign" in the sense that, finally, the management of a U.S. airline has been served notice that they cannot arbitrarily and capriciously breach a contract into which they have duly entered?

Or was something else meant by "not a good sign?"
 
flflyguy
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
And being a pilot and having worked or been around pilots, both military and civilian, my entire life, I can say earnestly, its not rocket surgery

I thought that rockets required scientists, and brains required surgeons. I never heard of a rocket surgeon!!  Wink
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Alias1024
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Thread starter):
This is not a good sign.

Yes it is. Finally, someone is going to force management to live up to the agreement they made with their employees. Nothing wrong with that.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
skibum9
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 13):
Yes it is. Finally, someone is going to force management to live up to the agreement they made with their employees. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that until DL takes all the planes away and shuts down the operations because the costs are too high. When all the OH employees are out on the street, will you still be saying "Nothing wrong with that?"

I'm not saying that throwing out the contract is the fair thing to do, but OH has no choice but to attack their costs. As alluded above, DL is probably tired of dicking around with OH, and the light at the end of the tunnel is probably flickering. OH is a supplier to DL and DL will most likely move the planes over to a lower-cost supplier, like Skywest or Republic.
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apodino
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:56 am

I doubt you will see republic pick up Comair flying. If all the CRJ's need a new home, republic doesn't operate the type, so it would likely be an existing CRJ operator. As much as I dread saying this, Mesa always has to be considered a player. That being said, there was a rumor floating around the Air Wisconsin crew room that Skywest was looking to buy Comair. However, if this happened, you still don't solve the labor costs issue. That being said, OO could just get the flying outright. Now if NW decides to move the pinnacle flying elsewhere, Pinnacle could become a player in this. Air Wisconsin could also be a player in this. It is worth noting that Air Wisconsin is keeping a lot of MX personell in ATW waiting to see what happens. Since both DL and NW affiliates serve ATW, and ZW still has a lease on a hangar in ATW, the possibility exists that ZW could get the flying, but would they be able to underbid mesa, who by the way already has an existing agreement with DL, but on the ERJ.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:01 am

DL still wants to rehabilitate Comair in order to access the value of the company through a sale. However, DL's patience isn't endless, Comair is a subsidiary, DL owns the assets, and DL controls who will fly for it. And a big chunk of Comair's planes are old enough that they could be parked or the leases on the newer ones could be rejected in bankruptcy. There are precious few newer RJs that need to be flown somewhere since they cannot be parked w/o a significant loss.

I still think Comair is one of the best regional operators but their employees have had it good far too long. It's time they wake up and realize they are not in a very good position and they best come up w/ a good deal or will find themselves unemployed and their assets relocated to another state.
 
Evan767
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:22 am

So how much money exactly would DL get if they sold OH? It sounds like a huge advantage to do this. What are the disadvantages and advantages of selling OH? If OH goes under, will the same amount of RJ's be replaced at Republic? Because we do have a lot of CRJ's with Comair.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
Alias1024
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 14):
When all the OH employees are out on the street, will you still be saying "Nothing wrong with that?"

No, I'll be calling DL management a bunch of douchebags for shitting on loyal employees, who wanted nothing more than their contract to be honored.
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DeltaSFO
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contr

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
I didn't disparage Delta pilots, you brought that up. Nor did I disparage military pilots. I just said that it doesn't take that much to do it, and its true. Unless you have worked as closely as I have with military pilots and actually know how you fly yourself, its very easy to see that it doesn't take much.

I count 4 military pilots in my extended family, 2 of whom are Naval Aviators. Your suggestion that it "doesn't take a lot" to be a military pilot is ridiculous and I will not address it any further.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
But apparently, you do have "idiots" that get airline jobs and do it. Otherwise, you would never see NTSB or FAA reports that contribute the cause(s) of some air crashes as pilot error. I'm not saying all pilots are perfect, as we all make errors of some form or another, but you have to be much more careful and attentive when peoples lives are on the line, and we can't say that about a few pilots. Including a few Delta pilots even.

To suggest that crashes caused by pilot error makes the at-fault pilot an "idiot" is a great example of faulty logic. As I said, operating jet aircraft is a complex job with many opportunities to make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. Every pilot will make a mistake at one point or another in his/her career. The important thing is to learn from a mistake and move on. When mistakes are made at the highest levels, the consequences can be disastrous. But labeling them all "idiots" is intellectually dishonest.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 10):
Yea, and I don't remember you chiming in with your two cents. I, however, have a hard time seeing why one group of employees should have the decision to determine if thousands of other people should have a job. You may not need a job to get by, but some of us have families, including the expensive hobby of flying, and would like to continue supporting these, and not have our dictated by a group of employees who demanded a bloated paycheck in 2001 when the economy was already heading into the crapper. Apparently, you don't care about your job, but some of us do.

I'm not sure how to address this. Why don't you go back and reread my posts. My position was that the market fundamentals which drive employee compensation in this industry have changed dramatically, and that's all there is to it. It's not that I dislike the pilots and want them to make less money; I wish Delta and the other majors were in a position to pay these guys what they feel they deserve. I'd love to see B777 captains make $290/hr. They work hard, spend half their lives away from home, and they deserve every penny. I'd love to make that much myself someday. But the LCCs have lowered the market value of what a commercial pilot does, and the majors must adapt to the new market reality or perish. That's all there is to it.

To me, it's not about pointing fingers or accusing one group or another of "dictating" the direction of the company or somehow screwing things up for everybody. The reason you took a paycut is because management imposed one on you, not because of ALPA. I have my issues with DALPA, and I've talked about them here in the past. But a lot of people at Delta seem to be having a hard time moving past all of that. Frankly, all of the bitter ground employees who buy into the idea that the pilots are solely responsible for all of Delta's problems are just as much of an obstacle to Delta's transformation and success as pilot labor costs and fuel costs. It contributes to a culture of negativity, and it has been a problem at Delta since before I came to work there in 2000.

Finally, don't question my commitment or caring about my job. You don't even know who I am, what I do, or where I work. FYI, I care about my company so much that I voluntarily left for three years, then came back at a drastically reduced pay rate only to find myself in a job where I am asked to far more with far less resources. I also have things to pay for, including flying--not just as a hobby, but as a ticket to a better future. It's important to me, and I find a way. You can too. Or, you can get out of the airline business and go to an industry where employees are still well paid.

By the way, just a factoid for you, those pilots who "demanded a bloated paycheck" in 2001 are the same ones who took a pay cut and four year wage freeze in 1996, then watched Delta record record profits during the rest of the decade, give noncontract employees pay raises as a reward for the financial performance, all the while telling the pilots "a contract is a contract." They have damn good reason to be pissed off, and if you were in their shoes, you would be too.
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tinpusher007
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 5):
it is not the fuel...it is the expensive employees....t

BULLSH!T...do you have any idea what they pay those men and women who are mandated by the FAA to save YOUR life if it comes to it? Do you also know what Comair proposes to pay them if they could reject their contract? At least this judge had some sense to force both parties to bargain in good faith.
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USPIT10L
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:35 am

Actually, I still think Mesa or Air Wisconsin may buy OH. Those are the two largest independent operators of the CRJ, aside from SkyWest.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Mon May 01, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
Your suggestion that it "doesn't take a lot" to be a military pilot is ridiculous and I will not address it any further.

Well, Otto has a good point. I have 3 pilots, including my dad and granddad who are naval pilots, but we've all seen pilots, even military ones, who should not even be anywhere near an airplane. I'm a pilot myself and its not a hard thing to do. Its not for everyone, but its not like its hard, its actually simple. Therefore, it is possible for simpletons to be pilots, plain and....simple.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
To suggest that crashes caused by pilot error makes the at-fault pilot an "idiot" is a great example of faulty logic. As I said, operating jet aircraft is a complex job with many opportunities to make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. Every pilot will make a mistake at one point or another in his/her career. The important thing is to learn from a mistake and move on. When mistakes are made at the highest levels, the consequences can be disastrous. But labeling them all "idiots" is intellectually dishonest.

Operating jet aircraft is still just as simple, just at a much faster rate. Every pilot will make mistakes, and they just have to hope that they do not make the wrong mistakes and will live through theirs. However, you say that when mistakes are made at the highest levels, the consquences are bad. But also, when many little mistakes are made, even at the smallest levels, it can still lead to disaster. You have to have your eye on the ball AT ALL TIMES when your life as well as 100 others is on the line. And anyone who doesn't focus on that is, in fact, an idiot.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
The reason you took a paycut is because management imposed one on you, not because of ALPA.

His issues aren't with management. He knew he would take a paycut and accepted it because he was paid well over what his counterparts at other carriers made, so he accepted it without a squeak.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
It contributes to a culture of negativity, and it has been a problem at Delta since before I came to work there in 2000.

Here's an idea: Leave. You are one of those people who have slipped through the cracks at Delta and have no pride in the organization at all. You see it as just a paycheck. A warm-weather fan, if you will. All happy and proud when the airline is doing good, embarrassed to be around when the airline is doing bad. Warm-weather fan culture is just the kind of negativity that Delta does not need. They are looking to cut costs, why don't you help them out?

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
Finally, don't question my commitment or caring about my job.

Oops, I beat ya to that, didn't I?

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
You don't even know who I am, what I do, or where I work. FYI, I care about my company so much that I voluntarily left for three years, then came back at a drastically reduced pay rate only to find myself in a job where I am asked to far more with far less resources.

Just hearing that is all I need to know about you. Just a warm-weather fan again. You left because you were proud, but when you came back, found out life wasn't as cheery. Did you do it with a smile because you were helping the company? No, you bitched and complained, and continue to do so obviously. Once again, there is another option staring you at the face.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
I also have things to pay for, including flying--not just as a hobby, but as a ticket to a better future.

As much as I hate to admit it, as a soon-to-be airline pilot myself, that a better future is not in the airline industry as a pilot. And if you truly still think so, your looking at it with blinders. But I'm taking the smart road and letting Uncle Sam pay for my training. You can either get a better paying job to help your flying, or joing the military as well. But don't whine just because Delta is paying you less in order to survive. You already mentioned that airline people should only get paid what the market can afford. Don't reneg now.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
Or, you can get out of the airline business and go to an industry where employees are still well paid.

He's thought about doing that, and just might. Not that he would really need to. He is the kind of person that accepts what luck brought his way and finds ways to overcome any obstacles in his way, as compared to crying about them. He is the kind of person Delta cherishes, by thinking outside the box.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 20):
By the way, just a factoid for you, those pilots who "demanded a bloated paycheck" in 2001 are the same ones who took a pay cut and four year wage freeze in 1996, then watched Delta record record profits during the rest of the decade, give noncontract employees pay raises as a reward for the financial performance, all the while telling the pilots "a contract is a contract." They have damn good reason to be pissed off, and if you were in their shoes, you would be too.

But you said it yourself, a contract is a contract. That was your buddy Mullin, whereas Allen gave the raises. Besides, as Otto has made clear before, don't overdramaticize the raises. They were 5%. DL would have spent much more in legal fees just opening up the contract in order to provide the raises than they would have benefitted from doing it. So, what do you do? You don't give it. It sucks, but truth.
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Mon May 01, 2006 4:13 am

DeltaGuy, why don't you reread this whole thing, try to understand it, then write a coherent response. Then we'll talk.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Mon May 01, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 23):
DeltaGuy, why don't you reread this whole thing, try to understand it, then write a coherent response. Then we'll talk.

Whats wrong? Too busy failing at an argument with one person that you can't take on another? LOL I just don't see what the whole purpose of your argument is. You blast him for stating what he believes, which is that Buttrell sucks as a businessman and probably isn't the most capable pilot. A very un-arguable opinion. But just because you don't agree with it, you blow it into this huge diatribe as to why you think all pilots are Gods and anyone who says otherwise should be executed on the spot. Since we all know that we military pilots are more disciplined than civilian pilots, let me know when and what airline you get hired for, so I can avoid your undisciplined, dangerous flying skills. LOL That should get your feathers pretty ruffled. sarcastic 
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Tue May 02, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 24):
Whats wrong? Too busy failing at an argument with one person that you can't take on another? LOL I just don't see what the whole purpose of your argument is. You blast him for stating what he believes, which is that Buttrell sucks as a businessman and probably isn't the most capable pilot. A very un-arguable opinion. But just because you don't agree with it, you blow it into this huge diatribe as to why you think all pilots are Gods and anyone who says otherwise should be executed on the spot. Since we all know that we military pilots are more disciplined than civilian pilots, let me know when and what airline you get hired for, so I can avoid your undisciplined, dangerous flying skills. LOL That should get your feathers pretty ruffled.

Dude, if thinking you "won" makes your day, go ahead. I congratulate you. Clearly you don't understand what this is about. That's okay. I won't argue with you any further.

And if saying dumb things to try to ruffle my feathers is what makes your day, why don't you post a few more.... go for it.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu May 04, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 25):
Dude, if thinking you "won" makes your day, go ahead. I congratulate you. Clearly you don't understand what this is about. That's okay. I won't argue with you any further.

And if saying dumb things to try to ruffle my feathers is what makes your day, why don't you post a few more.... go for it.

Apparently, I DID get your feathers ruffled. Don't run away, we can still have some more fun talking about this, while you complain about how sucky your job is and how great Gods pilots are, despite whether they are a good pilot or not. bigthumbsup 
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
DeltaSFO
Topic Author
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Thu May 04, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 26):
Apparently, I DID get your feathers ruffled. Don't run away, we can still have some more fun talking about this, while you complain about how sucky your job is and how great Gods pilots are, despite whether they are a good pilot or not.

I didn't want to go down this road, but it looks as though you insist.

You completely missed the point. I'm not the one who started complaining how sucky my job is... it was the other poster that started down the road of "I took a paycut and it hurts."

Quite frankly, if I didn't like Delta, I wouldn't be there. I came back to Delta from a job that paid about 30% more because I believe in my company and want to be a part of its recovery.

If you go back and reread my earlier posts, as I suggested to you, you would see that my point about people complaining about the pilots is that it contributes to the culture of negativity that some employees are still stuck in. And while your comment about the original poster showing the kind of attitude "that Delta cherishes" is touching, it's somewhat removed from the cultural transformation that Delta executives are actually trying to bring about. Rather than blindly follow a paternalistic management and bash anybody--in this case, the pilots--who refuses to go along, Delta employees must be forward thinking, aggressive, and not be afraid to speak up when there is something we can be doing better.

As for believing pilots are gods, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where exactly I said that. All I have been saying is that being a pilot is a demanding job, Delta pilots are among the industry's best, and making disparaging remarks and personal attacks on the pilots--be they Delta, military, or one specific pilot--is destructive and pointless. Can you disprove any of those three things?

Of course I wish we could all make what we were making before all of the paycuts. But the market value of our services has been lowered by forces outside Delta's control, and everybody--from the most senior B777 captain to the most junior ticket agent--is going to feel some pain as a result. There's no sense pointing the finger anymore. All we can do is adapt and survive.

Despite you putting words in my mouth and generally proving yourself to be one of the many self anointed "experts" of airliners.net by posting before reading the entire thread, no hard feelings on my part. In fact, next time you're in the Bay Area, there's a beer for you on my tab.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Judge Denies Comair Motion To Reject F/A Contract

Sat May 06, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
You completely missed the point. I'm not the one who started complaining how sucky my job is... it was the other poster that started down the road of "I took a paycut and it hurts."

Please, please point out where the original poster said such, because I just looked through the thread and could find nothing.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
Quite frankly, if I didn't like Delta, I wouldn't be there. I came back to Delta from a job that paid about 30% more because I believe in my company and want to be a part of its recovery.

Good for you. Really.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
Rather than blindly follow a paternalistic management and bash anybody--in this case, the pilots--who refuses to go along, Delta employees must be forward thinking, aggressive, and not be afraid to speak up when there is something we can be doing better.

Well, I would think that many DL employees were being aggressive and forward thinking when pilots were being pressed for concessions the first time around. Instead, they dragged their ass for 9 months and only when management upped the demands did the pilots step up and come to a quick agreement. It was determined by many that you can give it up now, or give up much more later. They chose the former, but made the choice too late and had to settle for the latter. I can't say it would or would not change the outcome of BK, but it may have made quite the difference. After all, you can't say that the pilots did not have a hand in bringing DL to where it is. They did. However, so did everyone else. From management down to the newest ramper, they have very nice pay and benefits and it was everyone's responsibility in one form or another to bringing DL to where it is, and it is also everyone's responsibility to bring DL back out.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
and making disparaging remarks and personal attacks on the pilots--be they Delta, military, or one specific pilot--is destructive and pointless

The only comments I ever made were in reference to one specific pilot's performance as an executive. Nothing but positive things were ever said of the rest. Face it, Butrell never got anything accomplished as President of DCI and since he has been President of Comair, he has gotten even less accomplished. All he has done is bring down morale, as compared to his predecessor. It appears that since he then turned to airline management, he has sucked at it ever since. If he hasn't, provide ONE POSITIVE thing that Butrell has done since his time with DL that helped Delta's or DCI's bottom line. The list will be very short, if at all.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
As for believing pilots are gods, I'd appreciate it if you could point out where exactly I said that.

Its the way you blindly defend them. Being an pilot is a great career and I'm sure you will have just as much fun doing it as I will once my military commitment is up. However, you also can't assume that all pilots are always correct or right. That is not always the case, as much as I wish it were(believe me, LOL)! My Dad is a DL 763 driver and has met both Buttrell and Delta Ops VP Joe Kolshak and feels that both of them are total and complete morons. Yet, at least Kolshak is still allowed in the cockpit of a DL plane. Buttrell is not, however, since becoming a diabetic while a USAF Eagle driver. If you are already a pilot, then you and I can both agree that there are some pilots out there that should not be flying an airplane as they throw safety out the window, ignore regulations, make up their own rules and just go with it. Of course, that isn't representative of all pilots, but you seem to talk AS IF you think no pilot would ever stoop so low as to not represent his profession in the best way possible. Wait until you actually get to a flying position, whether in the military or civilian route, and you will agree with me.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
Of course I wish we could all make what we were making before all of the paycuts. But the market value of our services has been lowered by forces outside Delta's control, and everybody--from the most senior B777 captain to the most junior ticket agent--is going to feel some pain as a result. There's no sense pointing the finger anymore. All we can do is adapt and survive.

No one was arguing that point with you. In fact, I believe everyone could only agree with you on that remark.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 27):
Despite you putting words in my mouth and generally proving yourself to be one of the many self anointed "experts" of airliners.net by posting before reading the entire thread, no hard feelings on my part.

Seems you did a pretty good job putting words in OttoPylit's mouth(which his suspension will be over tomorrow). But I'm sure he doesn't mind. And by the way, I'm not one of the man self anointed experts, I am the self annointed expert himself!  bigthumbsup  Just kidding.
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan