brucek
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:43 am

SFO Departure Question.

Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:58 pm

I recently flying out on the UA service to SYD (YSSY), Australia, from SFO, we departed on runway 10R, then flew what appeared to be a course up the middle of the bay (including a bank to the left, which is a northerly turn- not on the way to SYD  Smile ), before turning right and flying out over the west bay hills in the vicinity of San Jose.

I have lived in SFO and know that 28L/R and usually used for arrivals and some departures, and have never been on a flight using the reciprocal runway. The weather was raining on departure, so winds may have played a part in this runway assignment. Anyone seen this before? I had expected a departure on 28 L or R, and was very surprised to see 10 being used. The flight up the middle of the bay made me wonder if this was perhaps a noise abatement procedure, as it was around 11PM.

Thanks- Bruce.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:27 am

You took off on 10, which heads southeast. They took up up the bay for two reasons, though, one of which you mentioned, which was the noise abatement. The other thing they are doing is getting the aircraft ready to enter a corridor used for transpacific fliights by bringing them up the bay to allow for spacing on the overwater route that they filed.
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brucek
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:43 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:31 am

Thanks GoldenShield, that's very interesting about the timing to enter the TransPac system, I'm surprised that a hold at release on the ground isn't used for this purpose too.

Bruce.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Brucek (Reply 2):
I'm surprised that a hold at release on the ground isn't used for this purpose too.

It is, but nothing is perfect and there may have been other factors.
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timz
Posts: 6100
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 1):
The other thing they are doing is getting the aircraft ready to enter a corridor

He probably didn't intend to suggest that's why they took off on runway 10 instead of 28. Runway 10 departures are the usual during rainy weather, and if winds permit they'd probably like to use the 10s at 11 PM anyway-- but corridor timing wouldn't affect the runway choice.
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:26 am

What you described are Standard Instrument Departures or SIDs as we call them. Each SID takes aircraft from a particular runway via a standard routing to a fix (or waypoint) which connects onto an airway route. No matter which runway you use you will always join the airway structure at the same point.

For example from Stansted there are 2 Dover SIDs. One for 05 and one for 23. Each will have a different routing but both ending up at Dover which then joins onto a route out the Channel towards Holland.

SIDs will have altitude restrictions (to procedurally separate aircraft) and speed restrictions (to contain turns because of different aircraft performance).

Some departure fixes are for particular runways not all eg BUZAD/WOBUN from EGLL. Some SIDs are for hi/lo performance aircraft only eg Edinburgh. Some are day/night SIDs for noise abatement. Some are in use only in corordiantion with neighbouring airports.

But essentially they are all routes that leads you out of the airport to the airway. The alternative is to vector every single departure to their departure fix which is obviously a lot of work.
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timz
Posts: 6100
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:27 am

It seems UA and QF leave around the same time for SYD, but SYD flights apparently don't use the tracks to Hawaii, so likely the only thing they'd have to wait on would be each other. So you'd think they could wait on the ground, if needed.

[Edited 2006-04-28 18:31:49]
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 4):
He probably didn't intend to suggest that's why they took off on runway 10 instead of 28. Runway 10 departures are the usual during rainy weather, and if winds permit they'd probably like to use the 10s at 11 PM anyway-- but corridor timing wouldn't affect the runway choice.

No, timing doesn't, but the wind and noise abatement does. I had a train-of-thought typo in my last post, so I can see the confusion there. It's pretty rare that the 10's are used for departure during 0500-2000 local time, though.
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Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:39 am

Wasn't rare at all the past three months or so!

Landing on the 1s...now that's rare!

[Edited 2006-04-28 18:40:05]
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TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 8):
Landing on the 1s...now that's rare!

I don't think I've ever witnessed a 1 landing but taking off on a 747 from 1 is really cool.
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Tinkerbelle (Reply 9):

I don't think I've ever witnessed a 1 landing but taking off on a 747 from 1 is really cool.

oye......haven't seen you in a while mate!...and yah.....watching 747's taking off from the 1's are amazing.....I even video recorded a BA and VS heavy taking off from 1R..... biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
brucek
Posts: 208
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:43 am

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 8):
Landing on the 1s...now that's rare!

I would think next to impossible, or if possible would require a sharp turn to short final I would think  Smile

Bruce.
 
Ralgha
Posts: 1589
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 1999 6:20 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Brucek (Reply 11):

I would think next to impossible, or if possible would require a sharp turn to short final I would think

Quite possible, they just don't ever do it unless they have no choice.
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Brucek (Reply 11):
I would think next to impossible, or if possible would require a sharp turn to short final I would think

it does happen from time-to-time, it depens on the winds, and it always happens in the mornings...I almost made it to SFO to watch some, but by the time I got their, they started arriving on the 28's again.. Sad
"Up the Irons!"
 
Dreamflight767
Posts: 417
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:43 pm

RE: SFO Departure Question.

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:55 am

It is very safe to say that when it is raining, especially heavily, that SFO will use the 10s. This is a regular practice during the winter wet months. Landing on the 10s is more uncommon than departures. I guess when the rain rolls in, the wind shifts to the south and makes the 10s a better runway for departure.

SFO will use the 28s even if there is a southerly wind but only if it is dry. One time while listening to my scanner, a controller said that the airport procuders require them to use the 10s and 19s when it rains because the runways were too wet with a cross wind. So if I interpret this right, its OK to use the 28s and 1s with a cross wind, but only when dry.

However, TACA is a regular user of the 10s. I often hear them request to depart using the 10s even during the summer while most traffic is using the 28s and 1s for landing and take off. I guess they want to save fuel so they don't have to make that long left turn over the city after departure. Immediately after take off, they make a hard left turn to avoid traffic on base and final. But its kinda funny because the taxi from terminal A, the one TACA uses, is at the other end of the airport. And when they use the 10s, they often have to hold short of the runway for along time so ATC can make hole for them in the traffic flow. I would think with this long taxi and holding, they would use just as much fuel up.

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