rumorboy
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Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:51 am

Looks like they want cut or reject some of the leases at CVG. If this goes through the other airlines will probably get rent increases or even increase in landing fee's.


http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/s...006/04/24/daily70.html?jst=b_ln_hl
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:12 am

This was expected and I said it would happen in discussions re: DL's LAX lease.

Given that other carriers have such a small part of the CVG market, it is not likely they can make it up. There will be some loss to the bond issuers, just as there was for US in PIT.

DL probably doesn't want all of the facilities but that still doesn't mean another carrier can come in and set up shop. Unlike PIT, CVG is surrounded by cities with LFC service and DL is maintaining a significant portion of their service to CVG's local markets.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 1):
DL probably doesn't want all of the facilities but that still doesn't mean another carrier can come in and set up shop. Unlike PIT, CVG is surrounded by cities with LFC service and DL is maintaining a significant portion of their service to CVG's local markets.

Well, if this isn't familiar. Good luck CVG. This maybe the beginning of a long road ahead!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:25 am

The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub... US didn't and pulled down flights left and right and replaced whole markets w/ RJs... all the while charging exorbitant fares. Remember that DL tested Simplifares in CVG and the whole industry got to see how much or how little the market was stimulated by low fares. I suspect many LFCs crossed CVG off their list when they saw how little the market was stimulated by Simplifares.
 
steeler83
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 2):
Well, if this isn't familiar. Good luck CVG. This maybe the beginning of a long road ahead!



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub... US didn't and pulled down flights left and right and replaced whole markets w/ RJs... all the while charging exorbitant fares.

Yeah, well idiot Lakefield in 2003 promised the city of Pittsburgh that they'd keep the hub at PIT. Then in November of the following year, the hub was gone... Why could he not be honest with the city. If you want to see where he promised the city, it's in an archived press release from the A.C.A.A. from September of 2003. There is also an archived article in either the Post Gazette or Tribune Review website...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
iowaman
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:20 am

So this might free up some gates?? Where is WN?? lol.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:40 am

and CO and US are not the same company, Steeler.

You won't see WN in CVG... they have hardly grown in SLC which is a similarly sized market which has no WN cities surrounding it.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 5):
So this might free up some gates?? Where is WN?? lol.

CVG could use some WN right now! with IND, CMH nearby amongst others, folks in the metro area can save considerably by driving a couple of hours or so. Here in SLC we don't have that option since LAS is 400 miles away and DEN is over 500 miles.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:53 am

Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
iowaman
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
You won't see WN in CVG... they have hardly grown in SLC which is a similarly sized market which has no WN cities surrounding it.

WN still has a decent presence in SLC, and has actually added a second MDW and the four DEN flights within the past couple months:

8x LAS
7x PHX
4x DEN
4x LAX
4x OAK
3x BOI
3x SEA
2x STL
2x MDW
2x PDX
1x ABQ
1x GEG
1x BWI
1x RNO

I don't think CVG could support that many flights, but I bet they could support the typical WN "focus city" flights such as MDW, BWI, BNA, LAS, PHX, and maybe MCO or somewhere in Florida.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub...

We have no idea what DL wants or will do at this point.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that

my thoughts exactly, consolidate the remaining airlines in concourse A, and DL and OH would have B & C
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 10):
We have no idea what DL wants or will do at this point.

Every indication is that CVG is doing what it was intended to do without being excessively dependent on flow traffic as it was before. DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG. They've had every chance of doing so before and they didn't.

And if you doubt that the city of Cinti and KCAB will fight to keep DL in its present form, how many mainline flights and destinations does CLE, IND, or PIT have? And how many of those have nonstop service to 5 overseas destinations plus Hawaii. Nada. KCAB doesn't want to take a bath on the lease but they sure as heck do not want to lose DL.
 
N670UW
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
Yeah, well idiot Lakefield in 2003

It was David Siegel. Lakefield was hired after Siegel "resigned" in 2004.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Every indication is that CVG is doing what it was intended to do without being excessively dependent on flow traffic as it was before. DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG. They've had every chance of doing so before and they didn't.

And if you doubt that the city of Cinti and KCAB will fight to keep DL in its present form, how many mainline flights and destinations does CLE, IND, or PIT have? And how many of those have nonstop service to 5 overseas destinations plus Hawaii. Nada. KCAB doesn't want to take a bath on the lease but they sure as heck do not want to lose DL.

All the same things were said about PIT and US, and enlighten me on how that turned out. Nothing is over until the fat lady sings.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
skibum9
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:16 am

Am I reading the article right? They want to reject Terminal 3, Concouse B? B is DL's main terminal, that includes 29 gates, international gates and the Crown Rooms/Business Elite lounge. That would leave them with Concourse A, which is partially occupied by DCI, CO and NW. Concourse A has no international gates, has limited room for widebodies, no Crown Room and is pretty ratty when compared to B.
Tailwinds!!!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:24 am

Yes you are reading it right,

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG

Might want to check again as in this case the glass is half empty, and not half full!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
avconsultant
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2? A has 28 gates domestic, mostly narrowbody, while B has 29 gates with customs. Without DL having a major hub there, they don't need to keep three facilities open like that.

The ATA brief a few weeks ago stated US was moving it's operations to Terminal 2 and closing Terminal 1. I think in June.

Also, two weeks ago I was in CVG for the night and the big news was LCC was going to annouce CVG service to 3 markets in the upcoming month.

Combine the 2 things above, there will be no room in Terminal 2 once US moves and Terminal 3 concourses are tapped out.


KCAB is in bad shape, the bonds were reduced to junk. The new DHL (7/04) facility is empty, a few days after opening a new runway DL has a +25% reduction in service, Mesaba closed it's maintenance facility and the 2 largest tenants, under the same umbrella, are in bankruptcy.
 
skibum9
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 16):
Yes you are reading it right,

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
DL has no intentions of pulling out of CVG

Might want to check again as in this case the glass is half empty, and not half full!

If this is their true intent, Concourse A has 26 gates, of which CO and NW have 4, DCI has 12, which would leave DL with 10 gates. Things aren't looking good at OH, with talk of shuttering them down if they can't get their costs down soon. So if OH goes down, I could see COncourse C going as well. All of this could spell doom for CVG and points to DL pulling it down to a focus city, at best. Hopefully the rejection is just a move to get cheaper lease rates.
Tailwinds!!!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 15):
Am I reading the article right? They want to reject Terminal 3, Concouse B? B is DL's main terminal, that includes 29 gates, international gates and the Crown Rooms/Business Elite lounge. That would leave them with Concourse A, which is partially occupied by DCI, CO and NW. Concourse A has no international gates, has limited room for widebodies, no Crown Room and is pretty ratty when compared to B.

bum,
you reject the leases on the facilities for which you want to reduce the rent payments. Just because DL rejects the leases on these facilities doesn't mean they will leave and just because they haven't rejected the lease on Concourse A doesn't mean they will stay there.

CVG had very limited facilities when DL set up shop so there was an obvious need for better facilities for a city of CVG's size. DL really built its facilities to serve as a hub operation so they aren't ideal for local passengers.

CVG will probably still have better air service than other cities its size in the midwest.... and other airlines spent alot more building new facilities that will never be used than what DL spent in CVG. KCAB will lose a much smaller amount than other cities have lost. However, if they try to recoup the losses through grossly higher landing fees, they'll price themselves out of air service completely.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 17):
Combine the 2 things above, there will be no room in Terminal 2 once US moves and Terminal 3 concourses are tapped out.

Even though I hate T2 and the tunnel with few seats design it has, I suppose it could work as a WN terminal, and move everyone else to 3A.

DL claim they want 3A and not B, but this might be a ploy by DL to get a lease on B for the terms they would have gotten for a lease on A. As was said, the region will do what they can to keep DL in B so that they keep the international options open.

Putting DL in A doesn't close down the option of International for DL, however, as it would likely involve DL having international arrivals in B, but departures in A. Deplane the pax, move the jet via tug to A. Works at many other airports around the world. 28 gates is a lot of gates, and they could open a new transfer facility for buses to concourse C.

But B has far better facilities for food and shops and all that than does A. Not sure why DL would truly want A instead.

Either way, I don't see CVG as a market that supports 5 terminals as it stands now, nor even 4 if they only close T1. With DL de-emphasizing the hub for mainline traffic at CVG, the T3 complex should cover things just fine.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
steeler83
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting N670UW (Reply 13):
It was David Siegel. Lakefield was hired after Siegel "resigned" in 2004.

One of these day's I'll get it right  Smile

Pardon me Lakefield  embarrassed  I meant David Siegel. eehhehehehehh...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CVG72
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:04 pm

Well guys, it was a good run. Hopefully we can welcome in WN and B6. As for DL, I'll be off to HNL and SXM spending my remaining SkyMiles while they're convienent.

CVG72
Roll Tide // Next: UA/EV/LH CVG-EWR-FRA-DUS-MUC-EWR-CVG
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:06 pm

What about SLC? I was there two weeks ago and walked throughout every concourse. It seemed that many DL gates had very few flights throughout the day...perhaps 4 or 5 each (mainline, that is). If DL really wants to cut leases, it should be at SLC, not CVG.

JetBluefan1
 
Ih8b6
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
CVG could use some WN right now!



Quoting Iowaman (Reply 9):
I don't think CVG could support that many flights, but I bet they could support the typical WN "focus city" flights such as MDW, BWI, BNA, LAS, PHX, and maybe MCO or somewhere in Florida.



Quoting CVG72 (Reply 22):
Well guys, it was a good run. Hopefully we can welcome in WN and B6.

No LCCs will come to CVG. They've tried. Delta matches the fares and the LCC eventually pulls out. Ironically, with the exception of Air Canada, Delta staff works above and below wing LCC flights on a contract.

Here has been my problem with James Pilcher of the Cincinnati Enquirer and all of they whiners that write 'letters to the editors' about Delta vs. LCCs when LCCs pull out: They bitch about Delta matching the fares and the LCC then complains that they have a low load factor.

Well, if all the complainers would quit crying and show some loyalty to your beloved LCC then you wouldn't have Airtrash (twice), Vanguard (twice), and Air Canada coming in, touting flights, dropping fares, having no load factor, losing money, and pulling out.

Then the letters to the editor comes in: "To the editor: I hate Delta. It is unfair to me that I have to pack up my screaming kids, drive to _ _ _ (insert city here), and fly out of there. It is not fair. This shouldn't be a free market. Wha, wha. I wanted to fly Airtrash, but Delta matched the fares, so I opted for the schedule convenience and my skymiles and flew Delta. But now the Delta fares are back up because airtrash is gone! Wha wha wha….." Signed, Moron in Cincinnati.

The letter that should be written back: "Dear Moron, quit bitching and drive yourself and your stupid kids to Florida. Signed, your favorite airline."

That's about how it goes. If people would put their money where their mouth is and fly on the LCCs and not Delta when the fares are matched we wouldn't have this problem and I would sleep better at night.

Go Greyhound.
Over-moderation sucks
 
apodino
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:33 pm

How much harder will this whole ordeal make it for CVG to pay for the new runway? And why not this for a solution. Tear down one and two, and then build an extesion of A, and there will be room to do so after two is gone. That is assuming of course, that everyone can be relocated to A, and thats all contingent on this Delta debate.
 
DL763DFW
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting IH8B6 (Reply 24):
The letter that should be written back: "Dear Moron, quit bitching and drive yourself and your stupid kids to Florida. Signed, your favorite airline."

LOL.... nicely put. I agree with you on this one, theres too much bitching and not enough action on the part of the consumer. Everybody wants something for nothin' which I know is to be expected, but people have really got to wake up and smell reality. It costs MONEY to travel.... and more and more as long as fuel prices continue to climb.

If the consumer doesn't like it, don't travel or just pay it and deal with it.
 
meister808
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 25):
Tear down one and two, and then build an extesion of A, and there will be room to do so after two is gone.

Great idea, but to do that you need to come up with some sort of money to demolish the old stuff. Since CVG has got to be hurting since it is already a ghost town after the last round of cuts, I don't think anyone is going to have a few spare million $$ to drop the old terminals.

It certainly looks bad for CVG, though. DHL expands like mad, then gets the call that they are moving out. DL is starting to look the same, albeit over a much longer time frame. Its a shame to see such a good airport take such a beating.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
captainstorck
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 27):
It certainly looks bad for CVG, though. DHL expands like mad, then gets the call that they are moving out. DL is starting to look the same, albeit over a much longer time frame. Its a shame to see such a good airport take such a beating.

DHL bought both an airline and an airport when they acquired Airborne; it only made sense to make use of a facility which they owned and could operate on their own terms (ILN)
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 25):
Tear down one and two, and then build an extesion of A, and there will be room to do so after two is gone.

That is actually still part of CVG's master plan, along with an expansion of Terminal 3. Though that same masterplan also includes an 80-gate RJ terminal, and we know how realistic that is  Yeah sure .
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting Rumorboy (Thread starter):
Looks like they want cut or reject some of the leases at CVG. If this goes through the other airlines will probably get rent increases or even increase in landing fee's.

This brings up the question as to what airline would want to expand CVG?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
The difference is that DL wants to keep CVG as a hub...

They said the same thing about DFW, before it went to about 20 flights a day  wink 

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 5):
Where is WN??

Coming to an airport near you..  wink 

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):


CVG could use some WN right now!

Yes, it could. It would force the outrageous fares on Delta to take a reality check, and force decent priced flights in the market.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 9):


WN still has a decent presence in SLC

Yes and it will be expanding if the talk is true. Upcoming SLC markets would be SJC, SMF, ONT, and SNA. All of which are Delta markets.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:20 am

Right now, DL has way too many gates at CVG. Look at Concourse B, there's 29 gates, yet DL has less than 100 mainline flights a day. That's barely 3 flights a day per gate....what a waste of space.

I think the folks at CVG would be wise to hold off on any construction, until it's clear what DL intends to do. While DL says they are committed to CVG, it's hard to be sure. Any hub that has less than 100 mainline flights isn't that big of a commitment. I could easily see DL shrinking CVG down to a MEM or CLE sized hub (250+/- flights). However, it is possible DL will keep CVG as it is and slowly grow it, but the growth will be tremendously slow....mostly just upgrading 50 seaters with larger 70-76 seaters.
 
toltommy
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
You won't see WN in CVG... they have hardly grown in SLC which is a similarly sized market which has no WN cities surrounding it.

If you think WN is using the business model they were using 5 years ago, you are correct. But they are not. WN entered maor hubs of weaker competitors in the past few years. PHL, PIT, DEN, and IAD coming soon. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them enter CVG, and take all of T1 or T2 as part of the deal.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Maybe there's a way to make Concourse 3A open to AA, UA, CO, NW, USA3000 and US and shut down Terminals 1 and 2?

CO and NW are already in T3. Not sure there's enough ticket counter/ops/bag claim space available. But it should be explored if DL is serious about giving up space. This might just be a move to reduce costs, but I think CVG will be a hub similar to NW and MEM when all is said and done, so hopefully the KCAB is studying the possibility.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 32):
If you think WN is using the business model they were using 5 years ago, you are correct. But they are not. WN entered maor hubs of weaker competitors in the past few years. PHL, PIT, DEN, and IAD coming soon. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them enter CVG, and take all of T1 or T2 as part of the deal.

I agree and disagree, remember WN is already in IND, CMH and SDF. I myself think that Spirit/NK might be the carrier that is coming into CVG!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:11 am

If CVG can attract another carrier who is willing to take on what DL wants to keep, more power to them.

Of course, part of this may well be that DL is setting itself up for a merger with UA or NW. In neither case do they need much more than a focus city operation in CVG. As a standalone airline, however, CVG does play a slightly more important role in DL's network. ATL is too far south to serve the midwest that DL needs to serve on at least a limited basis and SLC obviously cannot connect passengers in markets east of the Rockies.

Comparisons with PIT and DFW are incorrect. CVG is at a size so that it should make money... and the midwest including CVG has always had considerable population and wealth as a region although it is much more spread out than the larger east coast cities. DL's CVG int'l flights have long generated as much revenue as those in ATL or JFK.

DL will maintain at least a minimum presence in CVG until they have a merger partner that makes CVG unnecessary. In the meantime, they aren't going to carry $450M in debt on their balance sheet for a facility that is being partially used. And they are going to have a lease that makes it possible to walk even further away from CVG if the right merger occurs. Until then, DL will maintain at least a reasonably sized hub operation in CVG, including several int'l flights.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 34):
Comparisons with PIT and DFW are incorrect.

No dead on the money!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 34):
DL's CVG int'l flights have long generated as much revenue as those in ATL or JFK.

PROOF?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
avconsultant
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
Even though I hate T2 and the tunnel with few seats design it has, I suppose it could work as a WN terminal, and move everyone else to 3A.

You're thinking it will be WN? Interesting.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 29):
That is actually still part of CVG's master plan, along with an expansion of Terminal 3. Though that same masterplan also includes an 80-gate RJ terminal, and we know how realistic that is .

Very true, plus the airports are very political and any airport director not having a growth plan would commit career suicide.

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 33):
I agree and disagree, remember WN is already in IND, CMH and SDF. I myself think that Spirit/NK might be the carrier that is coming into CVG!

For CVG sake, I hope NK would not attempt this move. They're not doing as well as hoped.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 35):
PROOF?

DOT filings. US airlines are required to file enough data w/ the DOT for the government and other airlines to see that DL's CVG int'l flights should very well be profitable and certainly generate as much revenue as DL's ATL flights to the comparable destinations.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 32):
CO and NW are already in T3

Yeah, I know. Skyteam members are all in 3. So is USA300 right now. AA and UA are in T2, US in T1.

How does that change anything about what I said? I said all the non-DL domestic carriers would be consolidated into 3A, 3B would be DL mainline (and AF), 3C would be Express/Connection. I suppose you could put CO and NW into 3B, but I'm not sure why.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Midway2AirTran
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
how little the market was stimulated by low fares.

Apparently DL didn't stimulate a lot of passenger traffic, but they definitely stimulated interest through simplifares as their website was over-flowing with traffic. Just comes to show that the fares were not exactly low-fares, just less restrictions and simplified structure to reduce last-min fares.

I think CVG would do much better with appropriate low-fare service, WN would be an ideal to me, however they have most likely tied-up in their resources with their current expansion plans. Maybe an opportunity for a new player??
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:44 am

It never ceases to amaze me how little support incumbent carriers at a hub city get from the local community. All people ever seem to do is complain. Would CVG ever have nonstop CDG, LGW, FCO, et al. service if not for DL? In fact, they wouldn't have 1/10th the service they have now if not for DL and OH. Go ahead, keep complaining, give DL/OH a reson to close up shop.

To the original post at hand, this does't signal any diminution of DL's commitment to the CVG market, but is a necessary step to get their costs in line that support their transformation plan. It's happened at numerous airports all over the country.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 40):
It never ceases to amaze me how little support incumbent carriers at a hub city get from the local community.



It is a two way street! Yes DL provided a service, and it has been paid for by the local traveling public with high fares for years. It has been told numerous times of lower fares being offered from DAY that actually connected via CVG!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:58 am

But the bottom line is that DL's super low fares didn't stimulate the volume of traffic necessary to support the high volume of flights they have. Period. And no LFC will provide anywhere close to the level of service DL has offered. CVG can take their lumps and reduce DL's leases to levels that allow them to maintain their current level of service or they will lose all but hub service.... and then a LFC will come in but it will be too late.

Note how badly PIT is trying to regain just ONE int'l flight and WN and B6 do not and will not serve many of destinations US once had. Even a small legacy airline hub is better than none at all. BNA has relatively good service thanks more to low fares than multiple destinations but they still don't have the level of service AA once provided. CVG would do well to keep what they can while they can or they will be reduced to just another midwest city with marginal air service.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
But the bottom line is that DL's super low fares didn't stimulate the volume of traffic necessary to support the high volume of flights they have.

News flash they never had "super low fares" the only time is when Vangaurd come into town and DL quickly ran them out, and guess what once gone the fares went up!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
But the bottom line is that DL's super low fares didn't stimulate the volume of traffic necessary to support the high volume of flights they have.

As Luv2fly pointed out, Simplifares weren't very low and certainly weren't low enough to stimulate a lot of traffic. Not to mention that Simplifares weren't all that simple...particularly in the way that DL's website displayed them. The big problem is that DL can't offer low-fares at CVG, because they rely primarily on high cost RJ lift. DL has slashed mainline costs, but that doesn't do CVG a lot of good when you have less than 100 mainline flights.

No matter what cost cuts DL gets from Comair, the RJ's will still have a high CASM...particularly with fuel prices so high. DL's CVG hub will remain a high cost hub which will translate into high fares.

While losing the hub would hurt CVG in the short term, it might be beneficial in the long run. Most people in RDU and BNA aren't crying over the loss of their AA hubs. Sure, CVG would lose nonstop access to many markets, but let's face it how many people fly CVG-ERI or CVG-BTV on a daily basis? Probably less than 10. However, CVG would retain nonstop service to all major O+D cities plus have substantially lower fares.

Honestly, I think the biggest determinant of CVG's survival as a DL hub will have nothing to do with Comair. It will be fuel. If fuel prices rocket to $100/barrel, RJ reliant hubs like CVG will die. If fuel prices stay where they are or go lower, CVG has a decent chance of surviving.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:48 am

DL treated CVG like a captive market and charged fares there to make up for lower fares in other cities.

They would only lower fares whenever anyone dared to come in and offer a reasonable fare to a city, and that was to run that flight off. They would make up for it with the higher fares of other flights from CVG without competition.

DL really only treated CVG as a "hub in the middle of nowhere" and did nothing to attract O&D traffic, yet got all pissed off if another carrier wanted to actually serve the O&D market reasonably.

That's called exploiting a region, and that's why people got tired of it.

Having lived there I barely ever flew DL because it was so much more expensive. I was 15 min closer to CVG than DAY.

It was often 1/2 the price to fly out of DAY and connect in CVG on DL than to fly out of CVG directly, and I have no reason to subject myself to two extra flights on regional aircraft for no apparent reason.

On the routes I flew, only to EWR was it reasonable from CVG on DL, because they had to compete with CO with frequency.

But I flew out of DAY mostly, or AA or CO to Texas out of CVG because DL was always pricier.

To Europe out of the region, I flew DL once from CVG, Sabena once from CVG (and that returned through ORD and connected), and AA from DAY via ORD.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
CVG would do well to keep what they can while they can or they will be reduced to just another midwest city with marginal air service.

No CVG would be wise to run the airport like a business and stop being held hostage by one airline. Just like PIT, and look just how better PIT is doing now that US has been shown the door.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
toltommy
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:47 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 33):
I agree and disagree, remember WN is already in IND, CMH and SDF.

I hear ya, but I'm sure WN knew how much traffic was driving from PIT to airports like CAK and CLE, and especially how much was driving to BWI from PHL and now IAD. I'll bet they even know how much traffic they get from the CVG market at those 3 airports! WN is going to use larger markets and primary airports for growth in the near term. CVG has to be on the short list.
 
toltommy
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 38):
How does that change anything about what I said? I said all the non-DL domestic carriers would be consolidated into 3A, 3B would be DL mainline (and AF), 3C would be Express/Connection. I suppose you could put CO and NW into 3B, but I'm not sure why.

You'd do it for ease of connection. You obviously missed my point, and maybe you haven't been to the ticketing/bag claim part of T3. As currently constructed/configured, there isn't ticket counter or bag belt space for all carriers to move to T3. Not to say it couldn't be done, but as currently built, there's not enough space.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Wants To Cut Leases At CVG

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:55 am

Newsflash: No airline is making money at super low fares, including B6 and WN. WN is making money because of their finance dept's decision to hedge fuel. DL's costs are competitive w/ what it takes to provide the service. No airline is going to be able to offer consistently lower fares.

CVG will never find an airline that will commit to the facilities that DL has built. They are in a lose least scenario at this point and they will not find a carrier that will offer as much service as DL offers now. If they don't believe it, screw up the lease negotiations and watch DL shut down what they do have. And dozens of gates will sit permanently idle.

And yes BNA does wish they had access to the dozens of markets that AA once provided. WN pumps lots of people into BNA but they have nowhere near the network coverage AA provided. And when you are trying to lure conventions and tourism, extensive reach matters.