aeropiggot
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A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:23 am

Comments from Launch Customer US airways, states that the A350 Needs To Be Competitive With the 787. Again another Airbus Customer pushing them to change the A350 design. You must subscribe to Aviation Daily to view the link below.

http://www.aviationnow.com/publicati...e+With+787%2C+Says+Launch+Customer
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steeler83
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:02 am

If US feels that the A350 will not compete with the 787, could US change their mind and order the 787? I believe that US is considering all options for future aircraft. I do remember saying something about an all-Airbus fleet, but USPIT10L informed me otherwise on a different thread and that they are looking at both Boeing AND Airbus for future aircraft...
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USPIT10L
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
If US feels that the A350 will not compete with the 787, could US change their mind and order the 787? I believe that US is considering all options for future aircraft. I do remember saying something about an all-Airbus fleet, but USPIT10L informed me otherwise on a different thread and that they are looking at both Boeing AND Airbus for future aircraft...

That would be correct, Steeler83. I heard that from FCYTravis on a previous thread. Parker stated that if the A350 doesn't like up to the "hype" or perfrom as expected, they would go with the 787 long-term. Good to see US exploring all options.
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NYC777
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:14 am

Wow that would be a change for US..they more or less vowed not to buya nother Boeing aricraft again after the 737 crashes. But if they get the right airplane then I guess they would be willing to swallow their pride and order from Boeing.
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steeler83
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:19 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 2):
Good to see US exploring all options.

Like the saying, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket..."

Don't put all your pax on one plane...  Wink

Sorry, that one probably was not a good application of that saying was it?  Wink Big grin
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atmx2000
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Wow that would be a change for US..they more or less vowed not to buya nother Boeing aricraft again after the 737 crashes. But if they get the right airplane then I guess they would be willing to swallow their pride and order from Boeing.

I always figured US Air's new leadership from America West should be able to put past issues with Boeing aside. The only thing that would hold them back would be any contractual and financial obligations to Airbus. I do remember US/HP indicating that the A350 deal would be contingent on the competitiveness of the A350 versus the 787. Just another thing for Airbus to mull over in considering the future of the A350.
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airfrnt
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:19 pm

The other thing to remember is that Airbus and US's deal for the A350 explictly had terms in the contract to let US off the hook if the 350 is not competitive with the 787. If US actually utilizes that clause, there will be a deeply unhappy Airbus given the post-bankuptcy loans they provided US.
 
aeropiggot
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:27 pm

Quote:
AirFrnt: The other thing to remember is that Airbus and US's deal for the A350 explictly had terms in the contract to let US off the hook if the 350 is not competitive with the 787. If US actually utilizes that clause, there will be a deeply unhappy Airbus given the post-bankuptcy loans they provided US.

Don't forget that Airbus gave/loan US/HP a few million dallars...with strings attached I would bet??
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Mir
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
Like the saying, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket..."

Don't put all your pax on one plane...

I didn't realize US had ordered A380s....  Smile

-Mir
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RIHNOSAUR
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:21 pm

hello,

I do not want to start an A vs B thing here..(doomed if I say it ...doomed if i don't), and I am still quite new to A.net, but I keep reading all this controversy with the uncompetitivenesss of the A350 vs the 787.

with all honesty I would like to know what is the "main reason" why this is so...
I am sure it all boils down to some efficiency aspect, because this translates to profits, but could some one in a concise way point to what specific feature greatly outperforms the A350??
also I am sure there are probably many factors that add up to an overall advantage....

Not to long ago, a Boeing engineer came for a career fair to my school and presented a talk on the 787, very impressive by the way. What stood out was the 787 range per fuel per kilogram... mainly due to the use in composites...
are these same features that bad on the A350...?
there is a lot of talk about the A350 cross section....how does this play a role in fuel efficiency...?? if at all...is the passenger comfort the issue???

thanks.

once again these are honest questions with no intent in starting controversy, I would like to add that the A330 is my favorite bird (just in case).
 Big grin  Big grin  Wink
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steeler83
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
I didn't realize US had ordered A380s....

Ok, so my little funny there has morphed into another A380 joke... Why don't I think of these things???  Smile  banghead 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
Comments from Launch Customer US airways, states that the A350 Needs To Be Competitive With the 787

You order a plane, then complain a year later that it's not good enough???

If the A350 is that inferior, why buy it in the first place???
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leelaw
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
You order a plane, then complain a year later that it's not good enough???

You should ask Mr. Udvar-Hazy of ILFC the same question. He "dropped the dime" on the A350 a few weeks after making a follow-on order for 4 aircraft.

[Edited 2006-04-29 14:20:21]
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
If the A350 is that inferior, why buy it in the first place???

The suspicion is growing on me that a lot of people signed up on the basis of a 'prospectus' saying that the A350's performance would be broadly comparable to that of the 787; and now they're finding out, or at least suspecting, that it will fall a long way short.

If that turns out to be the case, the contracts will be voidable at their option.
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kaneporta1
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
You order a plane, then complain a year later that it's not good enough???

If the A350 is that inferior, why buy it in the first place???

The A350 is not inferior to the 787. Like some airlines have said, the 2 airplanes are almost equal. I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?
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leelaw
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?

Nice spin. I thought the A350 was 90% new and had gone beyond being a mere derivative of the A330? This begs the question what will make a competitive design much better than the 787?

[Edited 2006-04-29 14:49:30]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
NAV20
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787. Like some airlines have said, the 2 airplanes are almost equal.

Kaneporta1, neither aeroplane actually exists at the moment. Their respective performance figures are a matter of estimates prepared by the two manufacturers' engineers and then discussed with the engineers of the various airlines.

So a lot of the figures are currently a matter of opinion, not fact. The thing that weighs very much in the favour of the 787, however, is that the design process is much further advanced. So a lot of what remains conjecture where the A350 is concerned is already fact for the 787.

[Edited 2006-04-29 14:45:52]
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USAF336TFS
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
You order a plane, then complain a year later that it's not good enough???

If the A350 is that inferior, why buy it in the first place???

Simple answer...    to exit Bankruptcy in an expeditious manner.

Regards,

Sal

[Edited 2006-04-29 15:52:08]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
aeropiggot
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:12 am

I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, but I am beginning to believe that there are people at Airbus who may be encouraging these guys (Hazy, SA, and US) to make public comments about the A350, so that they can generate more ammunition to persuade the Airbus/EADS board to go with an all new design. Because you don’t order a product and then bash it in public, that makes you look like a fool right??? So there must be more to this.... twocents 
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kaneporta1
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
Nice spin. I thought the A350 was 90% new and had gone beyond being a mere derivative of the A330?

The 350 is 90% new. Would you call the 717 a mere DC-9 derivative for the same reason?
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BoomBoom
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:28 am

Quote:
Our newest product, the A350, is attracting a lot of attention in the industry, and not a little skepticism.

--Barry Eccleston, President of Airbus North America
http://www.leeham.net/filelib/AirbusSpeech041906.pdf
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N44667
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:36 am

I'm kind of new here, and I just wanted to throw this out there: Boeing's 787 is pretty much completely different compared to most airplane designs. Unless you haven't been on Boeing's website in the past 2-3 years, (I'm pretty sure) it's 100% new. I'm not saying that Airbus should completely reinvent the wheel by going back to the drawing board on their plane, but why don't they go for something as radically designed as the 787?

Just my  twocents 
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sphealey
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:41 am

> Like some airlines have said, the 2
> airplanes are almost equal.

I think the real key here may be the question of fuel efficiency. Both the 787 and 350 were announced when oil was $40/bbl and expected to rise to $50/bbl over x years (say 5). Now oil is $70/bbl and experts are talking about $100/bbl by 2010 (please don't ask me how the same experts could predict $50/bbl in 2002 and $100/bbl in 2006; that is beyond my understanding!). With oil high and going higher I think fuel economy is starting to rule the decisions.

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AvObserver
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787. Like some airlines have said, the 2 airplanes are almost equal. I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?

Not to flame you because you work on this airplane but recent customer feedback indicates the A350 isn't fully competitive with the in areas such as CASM (owing to the smaller cross-section) and fuel burn (it's still heavier than the 787). This indeed implies it is at least slightly inferior which is to be expected since it's not truly a clean-sheet design. In no way is it a bad design but the A330 derivative approach was taken to save costs and time. Airbus certainly CAN make a competitive airplane fully equal to or better than the 787 but to do that, they'd have to scrap the current design for an all-new one which would add years to the EIS date and billions more to the cost. No matter how many of its parts are "new", the A350 is still based on the A330, inheriting its basic fuselage and systems. This no doubt seemed a smart approach when conceived so as not to let too many years elapse before getting a 787 competitor to market but it stands to reason a derivative of a legacy design won't be entirely competitive to an all-new one, ironically, an argument Airbus made for a long time before the advent of the A350. A couple Boeing examples are the 767, ultimately made obsolete by the A330 and the 737, which, despite still-robust sales, is losing ground over time to the A320 due mainly to its heritage fuselage. Airbus undoubtedly weighed the pros and cons of clean-sheet vs. revamped derivative designs, albeit rather hastily out of pressure to respond quickly to the 787 threat. They must have concluded that the all-new approach, in addition to being much costlier (on the heels of the A380 overhead), would have taken too long to get to market to stem 787 sales before it was well entrenched into fleets. Radically revamping the A330 obviously made sense from a cost and time standpoint but it never made sense that it would fully equal an all-new approach, despite sales rhetoric to the contrary. Airbus is now hearing from customers what should have been obvious to them at the beginning, since they've used the same argument Boeing now makes so often before. Editorials in FI and AW&ST warned awhile back that pursuing this strategy would be risky for Airbus in such a key market but they were between a rock and a hard place due to time constraints. It's entirely possible they bet wrong on this and will pay for it by either fielding a less competitive design sooner or scrapping that for a far better and costlier one that will enter the market much later. If the current A350 can garner even 30% of sales, it won't be a waste but the question is whether or not it might not be better to scrap it in favor of an all-new model that would at least match if not better the 787 but would cede years of sales in this niche almost entirely to Boeing. A very difficult issue for Airbus to ponder in the next two months before their stated mid-year decision deadline. No doubt a lot of officials heads will be going grey over this one.
 
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 6):
The other thing to remember is that Airbus and US's deal for the A350 explictly had terms in the contract to let US off the hook if the 350 is not competitive with the 787. If US actually utilizes that clause, there will be a deeply unhappy Airbus given the post-bankuptcy loans they provided US.

A friend of mine who works for HP has said this as well. If the A350 does not match the B787 within "a couple of percentage points", the contract maybe voided without penalty. He also implied that determination could be made on engineering assessments prior to actual flight test data. I wouldn't be surprised to learn other airlines have similar stipulations about the A350.
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luisca
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 9):

The problem with the A350 is that its performance disadvantages were to a certain point negligible 2 years ago when oil was cheaper. Also, 2 years ago airlines were planning on using 8 seats per row in coach. When oil continued to spike airlines decided to install 9 seats in coach on the 787. This was the turning point because now you have a plane with more passenger capacity, less OEW and better fuel efficiency, so the advantage that the 787 has over the A350 in terms of CASM (Cost per Available seat per mile) has probably gone into the double digits.

Same thing happened last year for the A340-600 vs the 777-300ER, the 7-8% advantage in operating cost for the 77W was not that significant to outweigh the significantly larger acquisition cost of the airplane, but when oil spiked the A346's increased fuel burn made it uncompetitive when put side by side with the 77W, even after considering the much lower acquisition cost.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787. Like some airlines have said, the 2 airplanes are almost equal. I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?

The A350 is not inferior to the 787 by much when the 787 has 8Y seating, but when 9Y in the 787 is considered, CASM for the 787 goes WAY down. The A350 has no way to have 9Y in coach (at least not with acceptable comfort levels) and this is the main disadvantage the airplane has. when comparing a 9Y 787 vs a 8Y A350 the CASM difference could be well over 10%.
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ikramerica
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 24):
A friend of mine who works for HP has said this as well. If the A350 does not match the B787 within "a couple of percentage points", the contract maybe voided without penalty.

I thought I had read on these forums (which means nothing, right?) that it wasn't that US could void the contract, but they could instead revert the A350 orders to A330s. This is why 787 would be a longer term solution. They'd take more 330s for a while, and then the 787s would start replacing the oldest 330s.

If the 350 performs as promised, then they would take 350s instead of 330s, and then 350s would later start replacing older 330s.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
atmx2000
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787. Like some airlines have said, the 2 airplanes are almost equal. I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?

The 787 has a significant weight advantage. A 787-8.5 sized to have the same cabin length as the A358 should have a OEW that is about 12t less, despite the wider and taller fuselage, based on the current info available. That's a greater weight advantage than the 773ER has over the A346 (I believe a 777LR sized to have the same seating capacity and pitch in all classes with 9Y as the A346 with 8Y would probably have a greater absolute weight advantage than the 787 over the A350, but not in proportion to aircraft size).

That advantage in weight will be reduced by whatever increased drag there is from increased fuselage cross section and from the current uncertainty in all of the 787's new technology. But if the fuselage drag isn't enough to offset the weight advantage, and if Boeing meets its claims regarding the 787 technology, the 787 will have a signficant advantage.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787 by much when the 787 has 8Y seating, but when 9Y in the 787 is considered, CASM for the 787 goes WAY down. The A350 has no way to have 9Y in coach (at least not with acceptable comfort levels) and this is the main disadvantage the airplane has. when comparing a 9Y 787 vs a 8Y A350 the CASM difference could be well over 10%.

This is the critical problem for Airbus. Zero fuel weight for a 787-9 with 290 passengers and 9 abreast economy should be less than or equal to zero fuel weight for the A358 with ~250 passengers and 8 abreast economy .

[Edited 2006-04-29 21:00:53]
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saturn5
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
The A350 is not inferior to the 787.

Who said so? Must be John Leahy. He also probably said that 787 is inferior to A350    

[Edited 2006-04-29 20:52:21]
 
aa1818
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 24):
A friend of mine who works for HP has said this as well. If the A350 does not match the B787 within "a couple of percentage points", the contract maybe voided without penalty. He also implied that determination could be made on engineering assessments prior to actual flight test data. I wouldn't be surprised to learn other airlines have similar stipulations about the A350.

One would hope that these contingencies would be in place in today's competitive environment. If Airbus had not allowed such a clause it would seem as if they knew it wouldn't match up. Same goes for Boeing, I'm pretty aure QF etc have got clauses that allow then to cancel (with/ or without penalty) and they would then be free to get the A350.

Additionally,
People refer back to the QF comments where they said that they were very close. People remember the english language has a funny way of deceiving people; very close does not mean the same!!! A little difference can make a huge impression (especially on bottom lines and balance sheets). So just because 1 or 2% of a difference in efficiency/ performance etc is 'all there is', doesn't mean that millions of dollars in fuel, maintenance, and other operating costs won't be saved, especially running a fleet of 65+ of these birds on many cycles over thousands of hours!!!

Cheers
AA1818
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leelaw
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 19):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
Nice spin. I thought the A350 was 90% new and had gone beyond being a mere derivative of the A330?

The 350 is 90% new. Would you call the 717 a mere DC-9 derivative for the same reason?

No I wouldn't. However, you didn't answer my second question in response to your statement:

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 14):
I think the point customers are trying to make is, if something based on the A330 can be as good as the 787, why not go all new and make something much better than the 787?



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
This begs the question what will make a competitive design much better than the 787?
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11Bravo
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 29):
People refer back to the QF comments where they said that they were very close. People remember the english language has a funny way of deceiving people; very close does not mean the same!!!

A bit OT, but there is also an issue of politeness and professionalism with regard to those comments. Qantas have nothing to gain from bad mouthing the A350 in public even if the differences between the two aircraft are profound.
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ikramerica
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 31):
A bit OT, but there is also an issue of politeness and professionalism with regard to those comments. Qantas have nothing to gain from bad mouthing the A350 in public even if the differences between the two aircraft are profound.

Further, what if QF were to have said: "it was no contest." Then, Airbus knows QF was only playing them to get a better deal from B, and how does that help QF on further negotiations for A320s and A330s for QF and various 1/2 owned and fully owned other carriers?
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aa1818
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
Further, what if QF were to have said: "it was no contest." Then, Airbus knows QF was only playing them to get a better deal from B, and how does that help QF on further negotiations for A320s and A330s for QF and various 1/2 owned and fully owned other carriers?

I don't doubt that QF was cautious in choosing words for lots of reasons, but my point is that people use the term 'the same' or almost the same very loosely. Just because something comes within 5% doesn't make it the same. It makes it very near, but not quite. IMHO that may be the A350, it may outperform the 787 on CERTAIN sectors hence the reason they are having no trouble finding customers, but Boeing's offering appears to be RELATIVELY MORE appealing than the A350 to a larger quantity ot carriers. Perhaps the numbers will even out, or perhaps given the 5% or less 'lag' by the A350 in it's curent form, the 787 will sweep up EK, SQ and others.

IF boeing bags EK SQ and steals QR then it is clear the 787 is FAR more superior, however, i think that if Boeing only grabs SQ and EK or any one or 2 of the 3 carriers, then the planes must be pretty damn close- but still not the same).

Hope I have made some sense and not just rambled senselessly- am really knackered!!

Cheers
AA1818
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:53 am

In any case Qantas' remarks about there being nothing between the two competing firms referred only to the prices offered - NOT the comparative performance of the two aeroplanes. The full quote was:-

"Qantas said it chose the 787 over the Airbus A350 because the Boeing model can fly further and faster with a full payload, burn less fuel and reduces maintenance cost with only one aircraft model.

"There was nothing in the price between the two manufacturers," Qantas chief financial officer Peter Gregg said."


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=97&ObjectID=10359999

Geoff Dixon, the Qantas CEO, was even more dismissive of the Airbus campaign:-

"A week ago, the Qantas board postponed the long-awaited decision to give the manufacturers time to negotiate final sales offers and discounts.

"The best wine came from the Airbus side," Dixon joked, "Unfortunately, (the Airbus offering) never made the grade."


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...nology/2002682245_webboeing13.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
aa1818
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:08 pm

Thanks NAV20, just what I wanted. I hadn't realized that they had explicity said the 787 was better. Oh well, strngthens the 787's case as well, however the onyl time I see a complete write off of the A350 being suitable on these forums if if SQ, EK and QR go 787!!! If Airbus doesn't re work the A350 if that happens, then it WILL be pretty much doomed. A lot hinged on QR i think, If they stick with Airbus, and EK and SQ go 787, it still gives Airbus some hope for the A350.
Don't mean to be hating on Airbus. I love the A320, love their marketing, and can't wait to fly the A380 (everyone's gotta try it once!!!!!! imagine the landing)

Cheers
AA1818
“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
 
Shenzhen
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:14 pm

Maintaince costs
Operating costs
Technology.. such as heads up display
Passenger Comfort

The list goes on and on. Major vs Minor leagues.

Cheers
 
steeler83
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting N44667 (Reply 21):
Boeing's 787 is pretty much completely different compared to most airplane designs. Unless you haven't been on Boeing's website in the past 2-3 years, (I'm pretty sure) it's 100% new.

That brings up something that someone said on a different thread about the 787. That person said that it is merely a refurbished 767 and nothing more...

You, on the other hand, ARE 100% right. This bird is nothing like anything in the air today. Put this bird side-by-side with a 767, and there is a very noticeable difference in the aerodynamics; go inside the bird and there is a noticeable difference in the technology and interior design of the bird. It looks far more modern, advanced, and aerodynamic than anything in the sky right now, and I cannot wait to see this bird in the air soon.

The A350 also looks a little bit different, especially the interior. I have seen some renderings of what the interior would look like and it is very close to that of the 787-very modern looking. From the exterior and aerodynamics and what have you, the plane IS very close to the A330 IMHO. I am not too sure of how to go about changing anything without delaying delivery of this bird as well as throwing excess money just to rectify something with this bird. If I worked in the field of aerodynamics or engineering, I'd be very glad to shed some light on this subject...
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 37):
there is a very noticeable difference in the aerodynamics

Agree - it's obvious from the 'artist's impressions' that the 787 wing design is very different. It's probable that that is a spin-off from the Sonic Cruiser research.

Traditionally, airliners (and light aeroplanes, for that matter) have climbed pretty well flat out, to get to the thinner air higher up as quickly as possible. That requires a wing that generates sufficient lift. I believe that the 787 has a high-aspect-ratio (narrower) wing which is also thinner. That design generates less lift, so the 787 will 'cruise-climb' rather than climb at maximum rate; but, once it's up high, the thinner wing will generate less drag. That is probably one of the main reasons for the 787's lower expected fuel consumption. I believe that Boeing are applying the same technology to the 748, and expecting similar results.

That could raise yet another problem for Airbus. Wing design and construction have always been mainly the province of the British side of the partnership. But just as they face the problem of very likely having urgently to design new wings to catch up with Boeing, the British (BAE Systems) are pulling out of Airbus......

[Edited 2006-04-30 06:03:15]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 25):
The problem with the A350 is that its performance disadvantages were to a certain point negligible 2 years ago when oil was cheaper.

thanks Luisca, very concise it made a lot of sense, you have clarified quite well my inquiry.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 37):
It looks far more modern, advanced, and aerodynamic than anything in the sky right now

I agree the bird does look very modern, but many of the computer renderings "out there" are not accurate as of the final freeze in design of the plane.
I assume the one on Boeing's website is...
I would like to add that I attended a talk by one of Boeing's key lead engineers for the 787 prog. He made a clear point in his presentation , that much of the original aerodynamics and "swoopiness" of the design were dropped because they really did not proved to be aerodynamically advantageous.

There were some threads here about the various stages of the tail, I believe and this gives a clear example of how the original rendering is actually not accurate. The winglets too have changed quite a bit since the original drawings...
in the end my point being, that although it looks modern ..its beginning to look not as modern as originally portrayed....and more "standard looking"
On the other hand I honestly have not seen the same kind of changes in the A350 design. ...
in my opinion it seems Boeing started with a pretty radical design but in the en d, toned it down to meet real life specs..

just my interpretation though...not trying to start a A vs B thing..

cheers
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Mon May 01, 2006 2:09 pm

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 19):
The 350 is 90% new.

This is true, but not all that significant. Suppose Boeing started with the 767, kept the same fuselage and wing planform, and re-implemented it with modern materials and engines. You could easily come up with a "90% new" 767, but if it was at best equal to the A350, would it be a wise investment?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 38):
That could raise yet another problem for Airbus. Wing design and construction have always been mainly the province of the British side of the partnership. But just as they face the problem of very likely having urgently to design new wings to catch up with Boeing, the British (BAE Systems) are pulling out of Airbus......

I'm not sure that's a true rendering of what is occurring. The engineering and manufacturing talent in Britian have been Airbus employees for a while now. They've reported to Airbus managers all the way up through the chain of command right to the Airbus CEO. So, when BAe sells its stake in Airbus, nothing changes about these employees or the facilities they work in. All that changes is a few billion euros flow into the BAe corporate coffers, and BAe looses some influence since they are no longer a shareholder of Airbus. I would not call this a British pull-out from Airbus, since I think BAe didn't have much influence over Airbus as a whole. It does make me wonder, however, if the British government will still be willing to offer launch aid packages, since Airbus will have no British ownership (although it will have control over many British jobs).
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NAV20
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Mon May 01, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
I'm not sure that's a true rendering of what is occurring. The engineering and manufacturing talent in Britian have been Airbus employees for a while now.

Agree that the position isn't clear, Revelation - that's why I said 'could.'  

But this paragraph from a Times article suggests that BAE (as opposed to 'Airbus UK') has up to now been heavily involved in doing actual work for Airbus/EADS, presumably on a some kind of sub-contracting basis (to a value of over 3B. pounds p.a., according to the article):-

"When the Airbus stake is sold, it will deprive BAE of about £3.2 billion of annual revenues and £310 million of profits, on last year’s figures."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8211-2128188,00.html

Seems to be possible, even probable, that the 'Airbus UK' factories are more the production facilities, with some or most of the design/engineering expertise still being provided by BAE's 'core' divisions on a sub-contract basis?

IMO you're right to mention 'launch aid' in this context. I read somewhere (sorry, can't find a link) that one factor influencing BAE's decision to pull out was that it might be asked to fund up to $1B. worth of the A350 development cost. One thing to provide design services if the UK Government is paying for a good proportion of it up front; quite another to have to put up the working capital yourself, and hope that EADS makes enough profit over the next few years to pay you back. Given that, the way things are dragging on at the WTO, 'launch aid' could very well turn out to be a thing of the past.

[Edited 2006-05-01 08:14:44]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Mon May 01, 2006 3:32 pm

Refering to the 787's looks, I believe that Boeing and the airlines opted for the most economical aerodynamics vs looks. Would you want the shark tail if it cost an additional $ 1 million a year per plane (just guessing on $) At QF that would be $45M/year or an extra 787 every other year. I know what I would choose.

Remember the QF competition, most of A.net was thinking that QF was going to order a variety of models and likely have Jetstar with a different mfg than the main line. If it had been close, I think we would see Jetstar with a different brand than QF. 100% to one model in 2 sizes for the quantity noted indicates the confidence that QF has in the 787, basically QF bet the farm which is only done if you are VERY sure of your decision. If they were hedging we would have seen substantially less firm and more options and rights.

Boeing has that nice problem of how to increase production without getting costs out of like, all the while producing the number of frames to cover the development/cert costs in far fewer years than even the best case scenario noted. I would think that break even of the 2nd line will take like 200 frames produced on that 2nd line, in addition to those to be produced on the 1st line to reach break even. It might delay profitability, but it would create tremendous pricing power - a nice spot to be.
 
andessmf
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Mon May 01, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
Kaneporta1, neither aeroplane actually exists at the moment. Their respective performance figures are a matter of estimates prepared by the two manufacturers' engineers and then discussed with the engineers of the various airlines.

So a lot of the figures are currently a matter of opinion, not fact. The thing that weighs very much in the favour of the 787, however, is that the design process is much further advanced. So a lot of what remains conjecture where the A350 is concerned is already fact for the 787.

That is totally correct, but in the last few years Boeing has overdelivered on their promises, and Airbus hasnt. So if Boeing tells you this plane can do x, the prospective client can take that promise to be more spot on that Airbus' promises.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 29):
So just because 1 or 2% of a difference in efficiency/ performance etc is 'all there is', doesn't mean that millions of dollars in fuel, maintenance, and other operating costs won't be saved, especially running a fleet of 65+ of these birds on many cycles over thousands of hours!!!

I've seen a lot of people in these forums make that mistake often. Some performance improvement packages promise a .5% gain in efficiency, and airliners back then would purchase this 'minimal' improvement. If you do simple math, you can figure out that small percentages in improvement can allow the airline to realize millions of dollars gained per airplane.

Simple example, two similar airlines, one uses 100 gallons per hour, the other uses 99. If the airline is used 10 hrs/day, 360 days a year, by the end of the year the airline using 99 saves 3600 gallons. That money adds up.

And again, if the A350 stood alone, airlines would be getting in line to buy it. But its competition is slightly better, and not in fuel alone. Maintenance costs are also lower.
 
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Tue May 02, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 41):
Seems to be possible, even probable, that the 'Airbus UK' factories are more the production facilities, with some or most of the design/engineering expertise still being provided by BAE's 'core' divisions on a sub-contract basis?

That's what I'd infer from the quoted article. At first I expected to find that it was some sort of dividend from being an Airbus stockholder, but given the talk of revenue vs profit it must be some sort of subcontracting work. If that's what it indeed is, then BAe is very clever. Airbus has a commitment to the UK that's hard to walk away from (very expensive factories and experienced workforce) yet BAe can apply the engineering talent where and when it suits them best.
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steeler83
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RE: A350 Needs To Be Competitive With 787

Tue May 02, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 38):
I believe that Boeing are applying the same technology to the 748, and expecting similar results.

I have seen the renderings of what the 748 will look like, and I think that they are trying to accomplish the same thing as well. The wing design and concept are almost, if not, identical...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

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