irobertson
Posts: 409
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Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:08 pm

I know, I know, another A vs B thread. But I started thinking about this when looking through the top photos and came across a picture of dozens and dozens of B-52s getting scrapped in the desert.

How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage? This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world. Does anyone think the military production has put Boeing at some sort of advantage over Airbus? Or does it matter any more?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage?

This is an incredibly convoluted question, so don't expect a simple answer.

Boeing's IDS and BCA divisions are two totally different inteties opperated almost independently of one another. Of course Boeing IDS contributes to a large factor of the Boeing Company's bottom line, and the Boeing Company is a substantially larger aerospace firm than EADS.

Remember that the U.S. DoD and SEC enforce very strict rules about revenue sharing between military and commercial products, contrary to the A.net popular opinion that defense projects "subsidize" Boeing. In the past few years, Boeing has had to reproduce all sorts of data from the 80s and 90s to prove that the B787 does not incorperate certin technologies contracted to Boeing IDS.

In terms of the commercial division, why not also ask how much more money Boeing has made by supporting MD/Boeing aircraft made generations before Airbus existed?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world

But Airbus's suppliers were defense contractors. Airbus's owners are defense contractors.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
Remember that the U.S. DoD and SEC enforce very strict rules about revenue sharing between military and commercial products, contrary to the A.net popular opinion that defense projects "subsidize" Boeing. In the past few years, Boeing has had to reproduce all sorts of data from the 80s and 90s to prove that the B787 does not incorperate certin technologies contracted to Boeing IDS.

If defense contracts were an effective subsidy, the surviving US large commercial jet manufacturer should have been someone other than Boeing because they certainly weren't the largest US defense contractor who had a large commercial aircraft business.

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MD had significantly greater military revenue than Boeing pre-merger. It didn't help them one bit.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
MD had significantly greater military revenue than Boeing pre-merger.

This is the primary reason Boeing acquired MD in 1997.
 
irobertson
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:59 pm

Thanks guys, quite enlightening.
 
columba
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Thread starter):
How much extra money do you think Boeing has made over Airbus from all those B-52s, not to mention the 707 conversions, etc etc that its used to its advantage? This sounds like a flaky question the way I've written it, but it Airbus doesn't really have that history of massive amounts of bombers or anything, yet somehow, they're head to head in the civil world. Does anyone think the military production has put Boeing at some sort of advantage over Airbus? Or does it matter any more?

One thing you should not forget, Airbus as a company does not exist for a long time. Before Airbus consisted of the largest aircraft manufactureres of France, Germany, Great Britain, Spain and Belgium....each having a own individual history of producing civil and military aircraft.
Boeing was a single company for 100 years now, therefore their history and legacy is more obvious than one of Airbus.
For example the knowledge the Airbus designers gained from developing the A300 came from such planes like the Caravelle, the VFW 614, Bac 1-11 etc.
MBB; VFW and other German companies that are now part of EADS and Airbus also have a huge military history before Airbus�s first flight.
Beginning with the production of license-build Starfighters for the German Air Force till developing own super sonic VTOL jets like the EWR VJ 101 X1 or the VAK 191 (only prototypes of course)..............
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
rigo
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:43 pm

Technically speaking Airbus has been so far a purely civilian aircraft maker. The EADS' military activities are separate entities which do not belong to airbus. AFAIK the hypothetical A330 tanker and the yet-to-be-flown A400M will be Airbus' first military products.

Regards
 
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breiz
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Rigo (Reply 6):
AFAIK the hypothetical A330 tanker and the yet-to-be-flown A400M will be Airbus' first military products.

Not really. Airbus will remain a civil airliner manufacturer with a military subsidiary for the A400M.
http://www.airbusmilitary.com/
The A330 tanker, and the previous A310 military conversions, are handle by EADS military division, not by Airbus.
http://www.eads.com/web/lang/en/800/...F00000000400004/1/43/31427431.html
Historically, due to the difficulties encountered by the A400M partners to steer the project, they agreed to call on Airbus for the management, hence the Airbus Military company.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Boeing's Military Advantage Over Airbus?

Mon May 01, 2006 12:23 am

It's also important to note that Boeing is (and has been for the last 40 years) under the draconian terms of ITAR for limiting how military technology is incorporated into the civilian projects. ITAR is quite strict, and complience with it is really really nasty. In that sense Airbus has a much greater advantage because knowledge from the A400M can easily be incorporated into the projects. Technology from the stealth bomber and the JSF can not be incorporated into Boeing products.