UAL#1fan
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United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 5:41 am

What happened to these guys here? Of course, UA never had the dominance at a New York area airport that Continental enjoys at EWR, but seriously, it looks like UA has really shrunk here. They only offer one daily LHR flight from JFK against multiple (I don't know how much exactly) flights from American. You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?
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STT757
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?

To hope people will like connecting through Dulles, to be honest Im really suprised UAL has held on to JFK-LHR and even JFK-NRT which NWA gave up.

UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.
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Stitch
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:05 am

UA serves the premium part of the NYC market, which is why they only offer three-class, non-stop mainline service to LAX, SFO, LHR and NRT (with UAX to IAD).

As to why UA doesn't have a heavier presence in JFK, their Star Partners already serve the market quite well.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:05 am

United has held onto JFK-LHR with their one daily flight to provide the Star Alliance presence in this market. They feel no need, however, to compete against the likes of BA, AA, and VS (out of JFK).

There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

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PanAm747
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:21 am

Quote:
Im really suprised UAL has held on to JFK-LHR

Remember that UA can not sell that route - under the ludicrous Bermuda II, only two airlines from the U.S. can serve LHR. That means no other American carrier (other than AA) can fly there, and if United wants to sell that privilege, it's all or nothing.
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roseflyer
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
They only offer one daily LHR flight from JFK against multiple (I don't know how much exactly) flights from American. You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

Part of it definitely is for pride. UA just can't compete with three other airlines on the route. BA and AA have so much capacity on the route, that UA would have to offer dirt cheap fares to hold on to the market. 1 flight a day is enough since frequency isn't that huge on long haul flights like that. UA can still please some people.

I would guess that UA earns way more from flying IAD-LHR where it dominates. UA use to serve LHR from more destinations, but routes like BOS-LHR and SEA-LHR did not work out. UA focuses on its hubs for travel to Europe. UA does benefit from having a partner in LHR with a big presence, but most connecting traffic goes via FRA.

New York is a huge city, but there is so much competition. DL, AA and CO all fight hard for the international traffic. UA could fly routes for glory and prestige, but it isn't an airline that really can dominate New York. IAD is their east coast city. Sure it is no where near the size of a market, but UA pretty much has the international market out of IAD to itself. As previously said, United dominates in the Midwest and West Coast. It isn't a huge airline in the east. They tried to fix that by attempting to merge with US Airways, but that didn't work so they only code share. But an airline doesn't need to every route everywhere in order to be successful.
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MalpensaSFO
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
You would think that an airline with access to Bermuda II would at least command a larger share of the market.

Unfortunately if they did command a larger share of the Heathrow to JFK market it would be at the expense of its LAX, SFO, IAD, and ORD-LHR frequencies.

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
What are some of United's long-term plans in New York, or trans-Atlantic for that matter?

New York is going to remain a premium "niche" market reliant on almost total O/D. It is the one thing that makes its New York operation stand out from other airlines. Almost all fo the United routes from New York City are to either domestic business centres, or World commerce centres.
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travelin man
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

That's a really interesting idea (IMO). A P.S. 757 to LHR would seem to be a really good move, if UA wasn't making money on the current 777. Having flown on P.S., I can definitely say that I would pay extra to fly it to LHR vs. say, BA, VS, or AA coach. Right now, there's not really a reason to select UA Economy (or UA Biz, or UA First).
 
roseflyer
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 7):
A P.S. 757 to LHR would seem to be a really good move, if UA wasn't making money on the current 777. Having flown on P.S., I can definitely say that I would pay extra to fly it to LHR vs. say, BA, VS, or AA coach.

In coach yes P.S. is good since it offers more legroom, but I am not so sure about business or first class. The First class product on P.S. is a lie flat seat which is comparable to other airline's business classes. I don't think it would see so well. UA would have to discount its product.
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petmbro
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:45 am

Did UA ever have a large presence at JFK over the years? Based on this 1985 route map, UA circled JFK, indicating it was a hub. I flew into JFK two weeks ago from IAH and I noticed from Airtrain that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100% since I really didn't get a good look at it. Obviously IAD would stop this but would UA ever consider using JFK for flights to other European cities such as CDG and FRA?
http://www.airchive.com/Timetables%20and%20Maps/UA%20Compressed/UAmap8510.jpg
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COERJ145
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):

UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.

What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.
 
petmbro
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 10):

What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.

Although that would give UA a huge east coast operation it would also give them a trip back to bankruptcy.
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STT757
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 10):
What if they merged with DL? I'd think DL would be UAs best choice at the moment.

I don't see how merging two disfunctional airlines would create a functional airline, UAL would be right back to bankruptcy if they merged with DL.
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B752OS
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
I would guess that UA earns way more from flying IAD-LHR where it dominates. UA use to serve LHR from more destinations, but routes like BOS-LHR and SEA-LHR did not work out. UA focuses on its hubs for travel to Europe. UA does benefit from having a partner in LHR with a big presence, but most connecting traffic goes via FRA.

I think the problem with BOS is the fact that there is already a ton of competition on the LHR route, with 3 carriers offering daily non-stop service depending completely on O/D traffic, UA just couldn't really make any serious penetration.

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

Could IAD sustain 2 daily non-stop 777 flights to NRT? If this did happen, would NH increase flights out of JFK?
 
FL370
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 8:35 am

"that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100%"
PETMBRO

UA only flies 757 P.S from SFO/LAX
international 777 to NRT/LHR
and the crj-200 from IAD

they havent flown the 767 to JFK/LGA in a while. so ya it was a 772 u saw.

i think UA looks fine in JFK, they have around 20-25 flights to JFK mainline.
and a lot more to LGA, they could possibly add more flgihts to JFK and cut LGA. just my idea.
 
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 8):
In coach yes P.S. is good since it offers more legroom, but I am not so sure about business or first class.

United Airlines offer its P.S. product which at current only serves JFK-SFO/LAX. It has been rumoured for over a year now that United would drop one of its IAD-LHR frequencies for a twice daily P.S. operation from JFK-LHR. Now also take into consideration that will only happen if JFK loses the NRT flight which is highly unlikely at current do to the contracts that United Airlines holds on its JFK-NRT operation. Of additional interest is that in the case that DEN picks up the NRT flight, United will move forward and forego any financial loss that may stem from the loss of the JFK operation. The only reason JFK is a 777 to Heathrow is the combination from what was multiple daily 767-300 service at one time.
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USPIT10L
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
UAL is a West Coast/ Midwest Carrier, unless they merge with someone like CO they will never be able to really position themselves as a player in the East Coast/ Northeast market/ Mid-Atlantic Market.

IAD has done fairly well for them and they have been building it up to serve more cities than ever before in the last few years, but the terminal needs remodeled. I think UA can do very well in Washington if they get the improvements the terminals need.

Quoting Petmbro (Reply 9):
Did UA ever have a large presence at JFK over the years? Based on this 1985 route map, UA circled JFK, indicating it was a hub. I flew into JFK two weeks ago from IAH and I noticed from Airtrain that there was only one UA 763 and I think a 772 but I'm not 100% since I really didn't get a good look at it. Obviously IAD would stop this but would UA ever consider using JFK for flights to other European cities such as CDG and FRA?

Not really. In fact, I think JFK was merely a line station most of the time. UA has always flown Los Angeles-New York and San Francisco-New York nonstop with jets. In 1985, New York was NOT a hub for UA, just a city with multiple airports served. I have all the timetables for UA in 1985, trust me NYC was NOT a hub at that time. ORD and DEN were the two largest stations, heck, IAD is a shadow of its current self, with many of the same cities as JFK, including LAX, SFO, ORD, and DEN.
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milesrich
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 11:00 am

Believe it or not, in the early 1960's, UA was the largest carrier at EWR. For a while in 1963-64, prior to the introduction of the 727-22, UA pulled all operations from LGA. Before the end of deregulation, UA flew from the three NY airports nonstop to ABE, CLE, YNG, CAK, TOL, PIT, ORH, PHF, ATL, MSY, BHM, TYS, DTW/YIP, MBS, GRR, FWA, ORD/MDW, DSM, MKC/MCI, OMA, DEN, MKE, SLC, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, HNL, BUF, ROC, as well as occasional scheduled flights to BOS, DCA, BAL, and PHL.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 11:05 am

Actually, JFK was a MAJOR UA station until the late 90s:

Widebody service to LAX and SFO
SEA
BOS (mainline)
SJU (weekends only)
IAD (Express)
NRT
HKG
LHR
Rio/Sao Paulo
MIA

and announced service to CDG . . . that never started.

Also a brand new Terminal 5 that was announced in an agreement with TWA and the Port Authority.

The terminal was never built and United is a shell of their former self at JFK.

PJ
 
USPIT10L
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 17):
Believe it or not, in the early 1960's, UA was the largest carrier at EWR. For a while in 1963-64, prior to the introduction of the 727-22, UA pulled all operations from LGA. Before the end of deregulation, UA flew from the three NY airports nonstop to ABE, CLE, YNG, CAK, TOL, PIT, ORH, PHF, ATL, MSY, BHM, TYS, DTW/YIP, MBS, GRR, FWA, ORD/MDW, DSM, MKC/MCI, OMA, DEN, MKE, SLC, SEA, PDX, SFO, LAX, HNL, BUF, ROC, as well as occasional scheduled flights to BOS, DCA, BAL, and PHL.

I believe you, but my research/interest lies in post-deregulation routes/schedules. I'd love to have a few schedules for major carriers like DL, AA, UA, TW, and NW in the '60s and '70s, though, just to get a feel for what and where they flew.
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STT757
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 18):
Actually, JFK was a MAJOR UA station until the late 90s:

Widebody service to LAX and SFO
SEA
BOS (mainline)
SJU (weekends only)
IAD (Express)
NRT
HKG
LHR
Rio/Sao Paulo
MIA

HKG was a very short lived response to CO's EWR-HKG flight, UAL's JFK-HKG did not last a year. And your missing a couple others like JFK-Buesnos Aires, Montevideo, JFK-Caracas, Port Of Spain.

UAL was flying in the late '90s EWR-BOS, EWR-SEA and EWR-SAN. I don't remember them flying mainline to BOS from JFK but they were flying mainline from EWR to BOS, SEA, SAN which brought CO's response of adding ORD-SAN, ORD-BOS, ORD-SEA all nonstop.

In the late '90s UAL was the second largest Carrier at EWR with nonstops to:

EWR-
ORD, DEN, IAD, SEA, BOS, SAN, SFO, LAX, NRT, LHR, MIA, MCO ( I think Im forgeting one or two others).

[Edited 2006-05-02 04:35:36]
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USPIT10L
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
UAL was flying in the late '90s EWR-BOS, EWR-SEA and EWR-SAN. I don't remember them flying mainline to BOS from JFK but they were flying mainline from EWR to BOS, SEA, SAN which brought CO's response of adding ORD-SAN, ORD-BOS, ORD-SEA all nonstop.

They did fly JFK-BOS on mainline, from at least 1999 until 2001. It was pulled after 9/11, I believe.
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tommy767
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
EWR-
ORD, DEN, IAD, SEA, BOS, SAN, SFO, LAX, NRT, LHR, MIA, MCO ( I think Im forgeting one or two others).

God I miss those days. I sometimes walk by the UA section and see the empty ticket counters and look at the departure board only to see nonstops to DEN, IAD, ORD, SFO, and LAX   . I remember back as late as 2000 there were 6 nonstops to SFO on 777s and 763s. And they used to serve HNL nonstop too! UGH! Sometimes I wish CO never got so big at EWR.

Tommy in EWR/LAX.

[Edited 2006-05-02 07:33:09]
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UAL777UK
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 3):
There has been talk of shifting the NRT flight to IAD (leaving JFK-NRT for ANA) as well as possibly changing the JFK-LHR flight to p.s., making JFK an all-p.s. station for mainline.

I would be surprised with this move, UA make money on the front end of the plane on the LHR-JFK routes hence why its still there. To move to a PS service in my mind would reduce capacity further and eat into yields.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 13):
I think the problem with BOS is the fact that there is already a ton of competition on the LHR route, with 3 carriers offering daily non-stop service depending completely on O/D traffic, UA just couldn't really make any serious penetration.

One of the reasond that UA stuck with LHR-BOS for as slong as they did was primarily because of cargo, on which they were making some money. Its a shame, I would love to see that route back again but it just wont happen.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 6:55 pm

New York is an important city that deserves a heavier UA presence. I know the flag-carrier days of Pan Am are gone, but I never in my wildest thought that UA would retrench back from JFK after acquiring PA's LHR hub.

I flew UA from JFK to NRT last December hoping to relive some of the PA glory when they launched nonstop 747SP service on the same route in 1976, but I was disappointed to see that it was a B777 flight instead of a 747-400.

How I wish PA Int'l was back at JFK at Worldport!  cry 

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christao17
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RE: United In NYC

Tue May 02, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 24):
New York is an important city that deserves a heavier UA presence.

It would be nice to see more of UA in the Big Apple (and a bunch of other places, too!), but they've got to go where they feel they can make money.
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airbazar
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RE: United In NYC

Wed May 03, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 5):
UA use to serve LHR from more destinations, but routes like BOS-LHR and SEA-LHR did not work out. UA focuses on its hubs for travel to Europe.

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if I remember correctly UA did not drop BOS and SEA because they were not working out but rather because they needed cash and those LHR slots offered the most value for the least impact to their operations.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: United In NYC

Wed May 03, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 23):
UA make money on the front end of the plane on the LHR-JFK routes hence why its still there

The amount that they make is negligible. The route is there for Star presence.

In addition, with the DOC alone, UA can operate almost exactly two 757's for the cost of one 777 on that route.

Operating Cost per Block Hour ($) - United Boeing 757-200
Flight Crew Cost $534
Fuel Cost $1,928
Other Costs $102

Total Flying Cost $2,564

Direct Main. - Airframe $284
Direct Main. - Engines $309
Total Direct Maintenance $593
Maintenance Burden $280

Total Maintenance Costs $874

Depreciation $230
Aircraft Rent $108

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,791


Operating Cost per Block Hour ($) - United Boeing 777-200
Flight Crew Cost $917
Fuel Cost $3,800
Other Costs $161

Total Flying Cost $4,877

Direct Main. - Airframe $301
Direct Main. - Engines $430
Total Direct Maintenance $731
Maintenance Burden $601

Total Maintenance Costs $1,332

Depreciation $599
Aircraft Rent $217

Total Cost per Block Hour $7,193

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L

[Edited 2006-05-02 19:05:40]

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