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Zkpilot
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India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 8:11 am

http://xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,11964-5721365,00.html

India is to sign today an open skies agreement which will allow NZ to fly daily to India...
NZ has been looking at India for some time now and has been mentioning it as one of the first destinations for the new 787 as a direct service.
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behramjee
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 8:52 am

how many Indians are there in NZ on the whole to warrant a daily B 787 service?

I would have ANZ tap into a niche market and fly AKL-SYD-DEL with the B 788 as QF fly SYD-BOM leaving SYD-DEL to ANZ to tap into. But would the Australia-India bilateral permit ANZ to fly with 5th freedom traffic via SYD to India is the key question.
 
Gemuser
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 1):
I would have ANZ tap into a niche market and fly AKL-SYD-DEL with the B 788 as QF fly SYD-BOM leaving SYD-DEL to ANZ to tap into. But would the Australia-India bilateral permit ANZ to fly with 5th freedom traffic via SYD to India is the key question.

The Australia-India bilateral is irrevelant to your proposed service. The real questions are: 1) Does the NZ-Australia agreement permit Air NZ to fly from Australia to India with 5th freedom rights? The answer is "yes". 2) Does the NZ-India agreement allow Air NZ to stop in and pick up pax from Australia on the way to India? That I don't know. I supect it does, but until we see the text of the new agreement it's very hard to say.

Bi lateral agreements very, very rarely, if ever, mention airlines from 3rd countries in any way. That would make them tri lateral treaties, which AFAIK are not to be found in aviation. Certianly the Australia-India bilateral does not mention services by airlines other than Australia and Indian airlines.

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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 1):
how many Indians are there in NZ on the whole to warrant a daily B 787 service?

I would have ANZ tap into a niche market and fly AKL-SYD-DEL with the B 788 as QF fly SYD-BOM leaving SYD-DEL to ANZ to tap into. But would the Australia-India bilateral permit ANZ to fly with 5th freedom traffic via SYD to India is the key question.

I think there are about 60,000 Indians living in New Zealand, but many families come down from India to visit their relatives and many New Zealand Indians go home to visit relatives also. It would be mostly the family/leisure market rather than the business market. As for daily flights... NZ would start off with 3x weekly, if needed increase to 5x or 6x weekly. NZ doesn't like racing into daily flights however (partly because NZ has a small fleet and perhaps needs time for mx due to the heavy utilization of aircraft, so a day off is useful.)
As for Australia, well New Zealand has an open skies agreement with Australia, I'm not too sure if India would have an issue with NZ flying via Australia first.
I heard that QF is looking at making India a target for JQ with its new fleet of 787's.
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JoFMO
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:10 am

NZ could also fly via SIN and let SQ place its code on the SIN-India section. That would guarantee them a healthy load all the way to India. But I doubt if SQ is willing to give NZ a slice of the SIN-India market.
 
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
NZ could also fly via SIN and let SQ place its code on the SIN-India section. That would guarantee them a healthy load all the way to India. But I doubt if SQ is willing to give NZ a slice of the SIN-India market.

I am pretty sure NZ has full 5th freedom rights beyond SIN.

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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 4):
NZ could also fly via SIN and let SQ place its code on the SIN-India section. That would guarantee them a healthy load all the way to India. But I doubt if SQ is willing to give NZ a slice of the SIN-India market.

NZ could do that... but as you said SQ isn't willing to let that happen... codeshare or not.
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ZK-NBT
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 3:32 pm

Maybe via KUL then?

Anyway what hapened to AI looking at AKL via SYD? I no they havn't restarted SYD yet but they should be soon.
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 3:58 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 1):



how many Indians are there in NZ on the whole to warrant a daily B 787 service?

There are 80000 Indians in India officially, which is about 2.5% of the total NZ population. However, Im not sure if this figure includes PIOs (Persons of Indian Origin). Also there are a lot off Fijians of Indian origin in NZ.

At the moment business ties between NZ and India appear to be very less so the traffic will be limited to tourist and visiting families. So keeping that in mind I guess a 3x AKL-DEL flt would makes sense or AKL-SYD-DEL daily or 5x a week. But AKL-DEL daily may not make a lot of sense at the moment. Unless NZ plan to fly AKL-DEL-LHR, if they are permitted to do so. That would make sense. On the other hand Indian carriers flying DEL-SYD-AKL could time their flights with those from Europe. That would allow passengers from Europe to fly to the pacific through India.

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atmx2000
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 8):
There are 80000 Indians in India officially

I think your count of Indians in India is off by something like 1 billion. 

[Edited 2006-05-02 09:03:06]
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NZ767
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 5:03 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
I think your count of Indians in India is off by something like 1 billion.

LMAO Big grin

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 1):
how many Indians are there in NZ on the whole to warrant a daily B 787 service?

Most Indians here in NZ are of Fijian origin, however, this is only part of the equation. The other question is, what would be the potential for cargo uplift between the two countries? Smile
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
I think your count of Indians in India is off by something like 1 billion.

Sorry mate
 
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting NZ767 (Reply 10):
The other question is, what would be the potential for cargo uplift between the two countries?

One question I would ask as well. I would think that due to cargo, PEK would have more of a benefit to NZ at this point, and probably in the future too and if that happens, NZ will have pretty much the whole of China covered (ie. HKG in the south, PVG in the east and then PEK in the north), possibly bringing costs of air freight between NZ and China down dramatically.

Direct services 3x weekly? That would be my guess for the time being, but to really capture the market they must travel to both north and south India.


How about AKL-NAN-DELBig grin
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antskip
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 5:53 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 11):
Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
I think your count of Indians in India is off by something like 1 billion.

Sorry mate

a typo surely?: should have been "Indians in New Zealand"
 
ANother
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 6:33 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Thread starter):
India is to sign today an open skies agreement

Sorry to be a penant - but this is NOT an open skies agreement. While offering more flight options they are capped at 7x a week and do not provide additional beyond fifths. From what I read elsewhere (sorry can't find it anymore) New Zealand airlines also can code share on Indian airlines metal (and v.v.) via Intermediate points - but NZ doesn't have the right to code share on other airlines metal (SQ for example)

This treaty still contains a number of (unnecessary) economic restrictions - it fails the test of being open skies.
 
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 9):
Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 8):
There are 80000 Indians in India officially

I think your count of Indians in India is off by something like 1 billion.

lol

as for the total indians in New Zealand...that would be all indian descent... incl fijian indians... (most indians in nzl are actually fijian indians not indian indians, but maintain strong links with india.)
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Nimish
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 14):
This treaty still contains a number of (unnecessary) economic restrictions - it fails the test of being open skies.

Does anyone know why the treaty was not kept as a full open-skies? Could the Indian side be feeling threatened of NZ using India as a hub and picking up a lot of 5th freedem traffic? Or did neither side want a full open skies agreement?
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Fly2CHC
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 7:25 pm

My vote would be for a daily AKL-KUL-BOM service!
 
zvezda
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 7:50 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 16):

Does anyone know why the treaty was not kept as a full open-skies? Could the Indian side be feeling threatened of NZ using India as a hub and picking up a lot of 5th freedem traffic? Or did neither side want a full open skies agreement?

My guess is that the NZ gummint would have agreed to Open Skies. They have been quite enlightened in negotiating aviation treaties. I suspect the bureaucratic mindset was on the Indian side.
 
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
I suspect the bureaucratic mindset was on the Indian side.

To be fair to the Indian side - they've been quite reasonable of late - including signing full open-skies with the US, and refusing to liberalize the treaty with HKG, until HKG opened up the skies for all Indian carriers.

It's kind of puzzling in this case. My guess is that neither side sees the value of a full open skies, hence decided not to go that way.
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zvezda
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 19):

To be fair to the Indian side - they've been quite reasonable of late - including signing full open-skies with the US, and refusing to liberalize the treaty with HKG, until HKG opened up the skies for all Indian carriers.

To be fair, the Indian gummint has gotten better, but is still more protectionist than the NZ gummint, IMO.
 
koruman
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:34 pm

Actually, you've all missed the point of future Air NZ flights to India. It's all about freight and IT. And the freight will be flying straight on to NAN.

The idea is to fly the same aircraft NAN (Fiji) - AKL - BOM, with the flight number changing for the different sectors.

Yes, most of NZ's "Indians" are actually Fijian. But while their personal links to India may be remote, the real market here is freight from India to Fiji, where there are 400,000 ethnic Indians (and a fair number of Melanesians) who are hanging out for the opportunity to buy more Indian products.

The passenger side of the equation would actually be about:

1) IT / industry types based in Bangalore at their companies' Asia-Pacific HQ travelling in Business Premier to clients in NZ.

2) Middle-class Indians flying Economy Class to holiday in NZ (not vice versa).

Just as Sao Paulo has eclipsed Rio as the location for most multi-nationals' South American HQ, we are just seeing the emergence of Bangalore and Mumbai as Asia-Pacific HQ. They have large, highly-educated, cheap and non-unionised workforces, and I think that Air NZ knows that the high yield market will be inward passengers from India, not outward ones from NZ.
 
jaysit
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Tue May 02, 2006 10:41 pm

I would think that the over 100 weekly flights offered by SQ, MH, TG, CX and QF from India could adequately serve the NZ market for awhile to come.
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AKLDELNonstop
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Wed May 03, 2006 6:37 pm

Well the thing is that many Fijian Indians in AKL have been in Fiji for around three or four generations and most of them have never been to India at all, so counting them as traffic would be unreasonable.

Furthermore, NZ herald a couple of months back reported the number of Indians in NZ to be around 80000. I would assume this to be Indians living here on an Indian passport and not NZ citizens of Indian origin or Fijian Indians. Im sure the classification was based on nationality and not ethnicity. But I would like to be corrected if Im wrong.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 22):
I would think that the over 100 weekly flights offered by SQ, MH, TG, CX and QF from India could adequately serve the NZ market for awhile to come.

Well while the number of flights are fairly large, some of them like TG have very odd connections with a long layover at their hubs, in this case BKK. Infact some ppl even fly NZ-India on EK via Dubai., feels odd to fly over India just to back track again. So nonstop or one stop flights on the same a/c would be convenient.

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6thfreedom
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Wed May 03, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting AKLDELNonstop (Reply 23):
Well while the number of flights are fairly large, some of them like TG have very odd connections with a long layover at their hubs, in this case BKK. Infact some ppl even fly NZ-India on EK via Dubai., feels odd to fly over India just to back track again. So nonstop or one stop flights on the same a/c would be convenient.

I'm not of Indian origin, but have friends that are, and they tell me the BKK/KUL/SIN stop/layover isnt such a bad thing, because it's a good time to do some shopping for presents for family and friends. Apparently it's a pretty big deal not to visit/go back home empty handed.

can any of our Indian friends confirm?
 
gamps
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Thu May 04, 2006 12:31 am

How about taking passengers to West Coast USA from India via NZ? This may be a small number but Qantas at San Francisco seem to be picking up few India bound passengers. SFO-SYD-BOM flight time around 32 hours or so..
 
AKLDELNonstop
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RE: India Signs Open Skies Agreement With New Zealand

Thu May 04, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 24):
I'm not of Indian origin, but have friends that are, and they tell me the BKK/KUL/SIN stop/layover isnt such a bad thing, because it's a good time to do some shopping for presents for family and friends. Apparently it's a pretty big deal not to visit/go back home empty handed.

can any of our Indian friends confirm?

That is true about the gifts that is. It is usually customary to take some sort of gifts for friends and relatives. Yes in that way the stopover is good, its also good as a short destination on the way to India, but on return you just want to get back home I guess so you'd like a shorter stopover. Well thats my opinion anyway.