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clickhappy
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Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 10:50 am

A friend of mine who's sister used to babysit for an Air France pilot ( Big grin ) just told me AF will be announcing 777-300ER's into SXM, along with other Caribean destinations the end of this month.
 
Mir
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 12:51 pm

I'd be very surprised about that - I thought that the 777 didn't have enough power to meet SXMs climbout requirements.

-Mir
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ikramerica
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 2:44 pm

On a 3700nm route? I would assume it has plenty of lift.
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The777Man
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 2:51 pm

AF will soon start flying 777s to their overseas territories but mainly to FDF and PTP. Their next four 777s will be in high density configuration specifcally for this purpose and will be based at ORY. From what I have read in other posts, AF would not use the 77W to SXM., they would still use the 343 or perhaps even 744. But things change.

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LTU932
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 3:53 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
On a 3700nm route? I would assume it has plenty of lift.

The problem is climb performance with one engine out and possibly also ETOPS restrictions. 767s don't seem to have any problems flying out of SXM, but a 77W at SXM would be majorly weight restricted, much like the 747 was and still is. SXM's runway is at 7708 ft one of the shortest runways used for transatlantic service to Europe and a fully loaded 77W with enough fuel to fly back to CDG would require more than the available runway length.

Quoting Clickhappy (Thread starter):
AF will be announcing 777-300ER's into SXM, along with other Caribean destinations the end of this month.

If that was to be true, which I definitely doubt, then there is still the issue on whether SXM would continue to be operated out of CDG or if they shift operations to ORY. In the end, the A343 is the perfect aircraft for this flight, because it can make it nonstop back to Europe with a decent load.
 
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 3:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'd be very surprised about that - I thought that the 777 didn't have enough power to meet SXMs climbout requirements.

The 772ER doesn't but the 77W may

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
On a 3700nm route? I would assume it has plenty of lift.

As it is, both the 744 and 772ER have to stop on the way back to Europe on the route, which is why the A343 is used. The reason for the 772ER's inability to do it is engine out performance.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
SXM's runway is at 7708 ft one of the shortest runways used for transatlantic service to Europe and a fully loaded 77W with enough fuel to fly back to CDG would require more than the available runway length.

Aren't they lengthening the runway?
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LTU932
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Aren't they lengthening the runway?

I believe so, but I reckon it might still not be long enough to support nonstop transatlantic 747 and/or 777 flights.
 
ka
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 5:55 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Aren't they lengthening the runway?

No, they are extending the overrun area to meet ICAO standards. TORA will remain the same.

KA.
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FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 6:01 pm

This subject was already discussed 10 000 times in the past 6 months

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2682529
 
Molykote
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
The problem is climb performance with one engine out and possibly also ETOPS restrictions. 767s don't seem to have any problems flying out of SXM, but a 77W at SXM would be majorly weight restricted, much like the 747 was and still is. SXM's runway is at 7708 ft one of the shortest runways used for transatlantic service to Europe and a fully loaded 77W with enough fuel to fly back to CDG would require more than the available runway length.

What exactly do you mean by ETOPS restrictions? I'd imagine AF has 180 ETOPS time for the 777 fleet (although I don't know this for a fact).

Is ETOPS 180 insufficient for this route or are other factors at work?
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ikramerica
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 6:26 pm

Using Boeing's current numbers from their planning documents, the high temperature charts at sea level altitude and field length at SXM:

the 772ER (current offering) can carry 95k lbs of payload ex-fuel needed for the route (and carry 145k lbs of fuel for the route)

the 773ER can carry 130k lbs of payload (and carry 150k lbs of fuel for the route)

the 744 can carry 115k lbs of payload (and carry 210k lbs of fuel for the route)

Of course, that's for typical design weights of the aircraft (OEW typical, not specific to AF) but it still shows that the payload limitations on the 773ER are not high for the route (85%, 8-10% better than the other planes), it carries more payload than the 744 or the 772ER, and uses nearly the same amount of fuel as the 772ER to carry 35% greater payload the same distance for this type of route.

while due to the mountain and the engine out it still might be restricted further (I was conservative in my calcs to begin with), you can see from those figures why the 773ER sold amazingly well last year and why it's taking over for the 744 on many routes.

I can't find the same info on the airbus site, but it would be impossible for the 343 to carry more payload than the 773ER on this route even if it could go with no restrictions, engine out performance looks to be the same as the 343 due to the massive power from the GE90-115B (unlike the 772ER), and fuel burn per pound of payload is higher.

It may very well be able to run SXM-PAR profitably and safely with good payload with a 773ER. We'll just have to see.
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FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Tue May 02, 2006 7:35 pm

All your "technical" theories about engines, climb rates, thrust, ETOPS, bla bla bla are very interesting, but there is a much more simple explanation why you will not see an AF B773ER at SXM :

Druring the highest season, AF operates a DAILY A343 to SXM. Capacity : 36J/236M which represents an offer of 1904 seats weekly.

A DAILY B773ER (capacity : 14J/36S/422M) would represent an offer of 3304 seats Weekly, that is to say an increased offer by 73,5 % !!!

Even if KLM would stop its fights to SXM (which is not likely to happen), nothing would justify such a change for the moment.

Moreover, those B773ER will be based at ORY. Flights to/from SXM are operated from/to CDG. They will operates ALL the flights to/from PTP, FDF (after the full retirement of the last 4 B743 used on those lines) and then RUN (starting Feb.2007).
 
Mir
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
767s don't seem to have any problems flying out of SXM,

Who flies the 767 from SXM to Europe? I know that North American carriers use the 767 to SXM sometimes, but they don't have nearly as far to go. I'd be really shocked if the 767 could make it back to Europe without a fuel stop.

-Mir
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ikramerica
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 11):
Is ETOPS 180 insufficient for this route or are other factors at work?

No, it's fine, and the 773ER can do 207 if AF is qualified. There are suitable alternates in between PAR and the caribbean in the Azores.

As FlySSC rudely points out, 343 is lower capacity than a 773, but since AF has flown 747s there before, I'm not sure even his rudeness indicates a lack of suitability for the route if CASM improvements can provide for lower fares.
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Amy
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'd be very surprised about that - I thought that the 777 didn't have enough power to meet SXMs climbout requirements.

-Mir

GE-90-115B? Are you kidding?
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Qantas744er
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 17):
GE-90-115B? Are you kidding?

Exactly! The 777-300ER at MTOW on a standard temperature day of 20 degrees Celcius at Sea Level, requires about 3300 Meters of Runway, this means that with a TO thrust mode and CLB climb mode the full thrust and a flight almost half of the aicrafts Max range will easily take off a 2550 Meter runway, the only problem is that if you take a 777 and it has a engine loss on TO it has 50% thrust remaining against 75% of an A340-300 so the 777-300ER wont ever fly from SXM although its technically possible and no problem for the AC.

Dont forget Air Europe used their 777-200ER they once had, for a couple of non stops from Europe to SXM, withought any problems.

BTW flying from DUS-DXB on EK on a 777-300ER i talked to the Captain after arrival in DXB, and he told me that being a ex. Air France Co-Pilot on the 777-200ER, he stated that the company has a policy of not using the 777`s on runways under the length of 8000 Feet, not for technical reasons but just as a company policy.
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FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Who flies the 767 from SXM to Europe?

Maybe some airlines are using B767 ou pf SXM but AF is the ONLY airline to fly NONSTOP to Europe

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
but since AF has flown 747s there before, I'm not sure even his rudeness indicates a lack of suitability for the route if CASM improvements can provide for lower fares.

When AF was flying a B747, the flight was not Daily and was serving also SDQ as it was routing CDG-SXM-SDQ-CDG.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
Who flies the 767 from SXM to Europe?

Lauda Air Italy and Air Holland (or at least used to).

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ANITIX87
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 6:35 am

According to AirlinerWorld, Air France will move the SXM flights to ORY and will use 773's non-stop. Though I don't remember when the flights will start. The frequency may also diminish and may no longer be daily, even at peak season because of the increase in capacity.

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FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 21):
According to AirlinerWorld, Air France will move the SXM flights to ORY and will use 773's non-stop

Flights to SXM are used by a lot of European Tourists and there is NO possibility of connection at Orly as all AF's European network is operated from CDG (except a few flights to North Africa).
Flights to/from PTP/FDF/RUN/CAY are operated from ORY because 95% of the PAX of those flights who have a connection at Paris are connecting to the French province.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 7:42 am

That might be the case but I'm just repeating what I read in Airliner World. And I'm pretty darned sure because it's right in front of me.

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DALOCCDtyDrctr
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I'd be very surprised about that - I thought that the 777 didn't have enough power to meet SXMs climbout requirements.

The 772ER doesn't but the 77W may


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Hmmmmm.........?



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NYC777
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
Alitalia will soon announce 787-8/9 orders.

REALLY!!!!???? Big grin
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clickhappy
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 10:22 am

Here is a picture of the plane they will use


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A388
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 11:02 am

Nice photo Clickhappy  Smile

A bit off-topic but there was another thread about KL possibly leasing some 773ERs from ILFC to replace their full pax 744 aircraft to start with. I immediately thaught of CUR as KL mainly flies their full pax 744s to CUR. Does the inability of the 773ER flying to SXM have to do with the runway length, airport height/altitude and the mountains being so close to the runway? Here in CUR we have a runway length of 3410m long and is 60m wide with no mountains anywhere near. The airport surrounding is just flat. The transition altitude is 2500 ft. Would this make AMS-CUR economical for KL to use the 773ER (nonstop)?

Which economical, operational and technical (other) factors determine twin engine operations on longhaul flights and why? The temperature also has an influence on engine performance (hot & high) but why is this? I never really knew the reason behind this being a factor (?)

A388
 
flpuck6
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 12:25 pm

Hi everyone,

For what it's worth, Clickhappy's and FlySSC's informations have merit. There will be 4 77W "high denisity" versions based in ORY for Carribean/Indian Ocean flights.

I don't, however, believe that the 77W will be flying to SXM ... FlySSC has already presented the facts as to why the A340 remains on SXM from CDG.
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Mir
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting DALOCCDtyDrctr (Reply 24):
Hmmmmm.........?

Ok, let me clarify. I have no doubt that a 772 (or a 77W) can make it off of SXM and meet single-engine climb requirements. I doubt that it can do that while carrying enough fuel to make it non-stop to Europe (without payload restrictions).

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 18):
a standard temperature day of 20 degrees Celcius at Sea Level

Standard day is 15C at sea level, not 20C.

Quoting Amy (Reply 17):
GE-90-115B? Are you kidding?

Nope. The 777 may have great climb performance with both engines running, but when one of them decides it isn't interested in further toil, the 340 looks like a rocket by comparison (even with three engines, an A340 will still outclimb a 777 on one engine). Due to mountains in the way on the departure path, the 777 has to take weight restrictions there that keep it from being practical on long routes. If the terrain around SXM were flat, there would be no problems with the 77W flying SXM-CDG, but this is not the case.

Quoting A388 (Reply 27):
Would this make AMS-CUR economical for KL to use the 773ER (nonstop)?

IIRC, KLM flies AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS. This would be no problem for the 77W, since SXM-CUR is a very short leg, and there are no terrain issues around CUR.

Quoting A388 (Reply 27):
The temperature also has an influence on engine performance (hot & high) but why is this? I never really knew the reason behind this being a factor (?)

It's more a lift thing. Simply put, when air is hot, it expands (becomes less dense). Thus, there's less air flowing over the wings, which means less lift at a given speed. This means the takeoff roll takes longer to reach the required takeoff speed (and thus uses up more runway). High altitude does the same thing, which is why hot and high is doubly bad.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N766UA
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 1:22 pm

Oh my God... I've GOT to stand behind that beast!!
This Website Censors Me
 
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LTU932
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Wed May 03, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
IIRC, KLM flies AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS. This would be no problem for the 77W, since SXM-CUR is a very short leg, and there are no terrain issues around CUR.

Plus CUR has a 11188 ft runway, which is long enough for any widebody flying there.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Flpuck6 (Reply 26):
There will be 4 77W "high denisity" versions based in ORY for Carribean/Indian Ocean flights.

4 aircraft this summer, 7 next year.
They will operate the 2 x Daily PTP, 2 x Daily FDF, then 10 x Weekly RUN.
Once again, they are not planned to be used to CAY and SXM, at least within the next 2 years.
 
A388
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 30):
They will operate the 2 x Daily PTP, 2 x Daily FDF, then 10 x Weekly RUN.

Aren't the PTP/FDF flights the same flight? I remember AF operating these flights as one flight with a stop in either PTP or FDF in the same way KL flies to CUR via either SXM or AUA. Or does AF now operate the PTP/FDF flights seperately?

A388
 
ahlfors
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 31):
Aren't the PTP/FDF flights the same flight? I remember AF operating these flights as one flight with a stop in either PTP or FDF in the same way KL flies to CUR via either SXM or AUA. Or does AF now operate the PTP/FDF flights seperately?

PTP and FDF are definitely operated separately. They both get at least a daily flight each on AF from ORY (more in winter), as well as a daily TX from ORY and SS also has a number of flights to both, non-stop.
 
A388
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 8:47 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 32):
PTP and FDF are definitely operated separately. They both get at least a daily flight each on AF from ORY (more in winter), as well as a daily TX from ORY and SS also has a number of flights to both, non-stop.

Okay, thanks  Smile

A388
 
FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Ahlfors (Reply 32):
They both get at least a daily flight each on AF from ORY (more in winter),

Actually, FDF & PTP are both served by 2 x DAILY flight (all from ORY) during the (European) summer season, not winter.

FDF = AF652/653 & 656/657
PTP = AF620/621 & AF624/625
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Thu May 04, 2006 10:50 pm

I hope I don't get flammed for this because I know how technical everyone on this site is...

This is kinda off topic but, I realize this is only a PC games and can't compare to real-life but I can't see how such big planes fly into SXM. Last week I tried to fly at Japan Air Lines 777-300 out of SXM on my Flight Simulator 2002 and it took three tries before I finally successfully took-off. The other two times I overran the runway and ended up in the ocean. On the 3rd attempt I held the parking brakes, opened the throttles to full power, and positioned the flaps to the 3rd setting. Once the engines were past 100% of N1 I released the parking brakes and the plane shot down the runway. The main landing gears finally left the runway with only feet to spare. So I'm wondering if the runway size isn't accurate on FS2002 or is my 773 not designed properly.
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Qantas744er
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 35):
773 not designed properly.

Since PMDG or LDS dont have a 773 your 773 is wrong, i fly FS aswell, and the only Flight sim. Add-On makers you could compare to real life are PMDG and LDS for these kind of planes, You also need to tell me more info. on your weights etc.

Because your telling me the 3rd setting for the flaps Im guessing your not very experienced yet, and FS 2002 Flight Dynamics suck.

Cheers Leo
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Mir
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 35):
This is kinda off topic but, I realize this is only a PC games and can't compare to real-life but I can't see how such big planes fly into SXM. Last week I tried to fly at Japan Air Lines 777-300 out of SXM on my Flight Simulator 2002 and it took three tries before I finally successfully took-off. The other two times I overran the runway and ended up in the ocean. On the 3rd attempt I held the parking brakes, opened the throttles to full power, and positioned the flaps to the 3rd setting. Once the engines were past 100% of N1 I released the parking brakes and the plane shot down the runway. The main landing gears finally left the runway with only feet to spare. So I'm wondering if the runway size isn't accurate on FS2002 or is my 773 not designed properly.

It isn't, but you still should be able to make it out of SXM under certain conditions. First thing you want to do is check that you're not taking off with full passenger load and full fuel. Remember that a lot of this discussion has been on how a 773 can take off from SXM, but cannot do so with a full passenger load while carrying enough fuel to get to Europe. Try it with the wing tanks full and all other tanks empty, using 20 degrees of flaps (4th setting) and 96% power on takeoff (hold the brakes until the engines have fully spooled up). Rotate at about 160kts, and the plane should come off the runway with about 1000 feet to spare. Or at least that's what happened in my test run with the default 773. But do look for a free replacement for the default - it looks bad and flies bad. The aviation hobby forum will have lots of information on where to find one.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 35):
Since PMDG or LDS dont have a 773 your 773 is wrong, i fly FS aswell, and the only Flight sim. Add-On makers you could compare to real life are PMDG and LDS for these kind of planes, You also need to tell me more info. on your weights etc.

Because your telling me the 3rd setting for the flaps Im guessing your not very experienced yet, and FS 2002 Flight Dynamics suck.

Cheers Leo

I actually have a really good 773 add-on that is far superior to the crappy default 773 that comes with FS2002. My 773 looks realistic as hell and performs really well. It even has the unmistakable GE-90 siren sound on takeoff. I really haven't looked at my flight manual to configure proper takeoff flap settings but I know when I set the flaps to the 2nd position I could never lift of the ground in enough time. When I put the flaps on the 3rd position it worked.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
It isn't, but you still should be able to make it out of SXM under certain conditions. First thing you want to do is check that you're not taking off with full passenger load and full fuel. Remember that a lot of this discussion has been on how a 773 can take off from SXM, but cannot do so with a full passenger load while carrying enough fuel to get to Europe. Try it with the wing tanks full and all other tanks empty, using 20 degrees of flaps (4th setting) and 96% power on takeoff (hold the brakes until the engines have fully spooled up). Rotate at about 160kts, and the plane should come off the runway with about 1000 feet to spare. Or at least that's what happened in my test run with the default 773. But do look for a free replacement for the default - it looks bad and flies bad. The aviation hobby forum will have lots of information on where to find one.

That makes so much sense! You know I have never changed those settings before ever?! No wonder my landings are always so hard. I like to practice my landings a lot by taking off and then circling around the airport and landing again. I found the SYD and HGK are the best airports of practice for me. I make the most perfect landings at SYD though. But when I fly the 747 or MD-11 into SYD I always land very hard. Sometimes the auto-spoilers don't activate so makes it worse. I need to reconfigure those settings like you mentioned as well as for the 773 when I try taking off from SXM.
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FlySSC
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RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 34):
I hope I don't get flammed for this because I know how technical everyone on this site is...

This is kinda off topic but, I realize this is only a PC games and can't compare to real-life but I can't see how such big planes fly into SXM. Last week I tried to fly at Japan Air Lines 777-300 out of SXM on my Flight Simulator 2002 and it took three tries before I finally successfully took-off. The other two times I overran the runway and ended up in the ocean. On the 3rd attempt I held the parking brakes, opened the throttles to full power, and positioned the flaps to the 3rd setting. Once the engines were past 100% of N1 I released the parking brakes and the plane shot down the runway. The main landing gears finally left the runway with only feet to spare. So I'm wondering if the runway size isn't accurate on FS2002 or is my 773 not designed properly.

Try again the same simulation but cut one engine 5 knots before V1, and in another attempt, cut 1 engine right between V1 and VR ...  Wink
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
No, it's fine, and the 773ER can do 207 if AF is qualified. There are suitable alternates in between PAR and the caribbean in the Azores.

ETOPS 207 has only ever been granted over the North Pacific, and only on a case by case basis for ETOPS 180 certified carriers. There is no indication that they are changing that for the time being. Further, to get across the Atlantic, ETOPS 138 is all that is necessary.

Quoting DALOCCDtyDrctr (Reply 21):
Hmmmmm.........?

Dude, they can fly in but they can't make it back to Europe non-stop. If they could, the aircraft would be used.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Rumor: Air France 773ER To SXM

Fri May 05, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 38):
Try again the same simulation but cut one engine 5 knots before V1, and in another attempt, cut 1 engine right between V1 and VR ...

I've tried it, and the results were smashing! In that into-a-hill sort of sense....  Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day