jacobin777
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Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:34 am

Interesting little blog I read....personally, it would be interesting to see NW get
some 777's, but I would think they would go for more A330's first....that being said, the transition from the 777 to 787 would be easy given the commonality between them....

by the way, don't flame the messenger.. flamed 

fair use excerpt:

"Word from Paris is Craig Saddler (finance director of the 787 program) says Northwest has "committed" to the 777. In 2001 Northwest found the 777 too much airplane compared with the 330 for trans-Atlantic trips. Regarding the Pacific market, the 777 (P&W powered) did not have the legs for its routes. ("The 777-200's range, evaluated with Northwest rules and interiors, is approximately 1,100 miles less than advertised.")"

rest of the blog can be found at...

http://iagblog.blogspot.com/
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AA777223
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:38 am

I think it would be great to see a 777 in NW colors. I would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet. Here's hoping they are actually "committed".
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dtwclipper
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 1):
would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet.

What do you call their fleet of 744's?
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jacobin777
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 1):
I think it would be great to see a 777 in NW colors. I would really like to see some boeing widebody metal in their fleet. Here's hoping they are actually "committed".

we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:41 am

News to me, but i've been away from work for a month. If we are, none of the pilots have heard anything, and there is nothing about it on the PFAA, or NWAPLA webpages. No buzz. I don't believe it. If NW was allow to wet-lease aircraft types, they probably would. But the pilot's contract, as well as their tentative agreement prohibits it. Doubtful at best.
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......

Ah... what about the 747-400s that they've had for quite a while??  Smile


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AA777223
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
we do see the "Boeing" DC-10, and 747-200 in NW colours...but the 777 would certainly be a coup.......



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):

What do you call their fleet of 744's?

Sorry, I meant to say "more" boeing widebody metal. Excuse me.
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Thread starter):
Regarding the Pacific market, the 777 (P&W powered) did not have the legs for its routes. ("The 777-200's range, evaluated with Northwest rules and interiors, is approximately 1,100 miles less than advertised.")"

Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.
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centrair
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:53 am

Though they didn't buy the 777, didn't they put a clause in the Pilots contract for 777s back when they did the evaluation for the DC-10 replacement?

Though NW has ordered 18 787s, they hold options for up to a total of 68 planes (I think). At that number they could replace their 747s with frequency, overfly Japan and add more non-stops as well as simplify their fleet.

As for that blog...it seems a little dated. The DC-10s are almost gone aren't they? NW has A332s for the West Coast-Asia/Beach and Japan-Beach markets and A333s for Europe. NW is still taking delivery of their A330s even in BK.

NWA will take delivery of their 787-8s in 2008. Would having 777s in the fleet for two years be that beneficial for NW? Maybe if it were a long-term solution for increasing profit, reducing costs and adding new options then maybe NW will actually move on this. But otherwise...I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Edited 2006-05-02 04:58:13]
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jacobin777
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Star_world (Reply 5):
Ah... what about the 747-400s that they've had for quite a while??

oh yah..that too... Smile

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.

I was a bit suspicious of that too....but hey...as I said, don't flame the messenger....I was only try to share something I read....
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part.

The whole blog doesn't smell right.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
didn't they put a clause in the Pilots contract for 777s?

I believe it does, but it also included the 737 in the 1989 contract which was followed by the strike-plague 1998 year of ops.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
Would having 777s in the fleet for two years be that beneficial for NW?

It would've been beneficial from the very beginning, but the company was cheap(masking it as not being compatible with the fleet or our operation) and went for the A330, because Airbus Industrie gave the aircraft to us for a song.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 8):
I would be hoping for the 773ER as a replacement for the 747s or 772ERs on some of the routes were a 744 is overkill like DTW-NGO.

I would hope so too. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Out options on the 787's do allow for us to use them by other aircraft than the 787. I just think there would be somebetter sources on here rather than blogspot page. But I could be wrong.

These quotes are what strike me as odd:
Fuel costs are making not only the DC9s too much to operate but now also the DC10s.

Northwest is understandably nervous about its mechanic situation. So driving down running costs from lower fuel burn and lower maintenance costs might be just the thing to tip the balance.


It's no revelation that DC10 and DC9's are expensive to operate, and the mechanic situation is practically over. The company's main concern right now is the pilots and flight attendants TA.

[Edited 2006-05-02 05:37:31]
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sparkingwave
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 6:42 pm

NW 777s would be delightful!

But I have to admit the NW A330s are elegant in their own right. They look smart in NW's livery.

However, I'll take a NW 747-400 or 747-200 any day - spaciousness for longhaul flights.

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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:15 pm

will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:21 pm

Maybe later on, the 777F to replace older 747Fs but right now, passenger 777s for NW is unlikely given their high satisfaction with A330s.

I'm wondering why NW never purchased the 767 to close the gap between its DC-10s and 757s. Every other U.S. major has operated the 767 except NW.  confused 
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4everRC
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 12):
will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?

I don't think so. Without researching it in detail, I thought the reason for the 332s was because the 333s don't have the range, even from SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (like I have to ask...).
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Rj111
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:27 pm

NW said they would consider the A346 and 773ER to replace the 742s a while back when they ordered the A330s. A lot has changed since then (including the parking of the 742s i believe) but my guess would be the 773ER if any 777 were ordered. However, i'm rather (read incredibly) skeptical of the source.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:37 pm

What engines would NW buy for any possible 777 order?

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NLINK
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:42 pm

NW wants to replace the 747-200F. A couple options mentioned would be ordering the 777-300ER to replace the 747-400 and convert the 747-400 to Freighters. Another option mentioned was getting the 747-8 Freighters or 777 Freighters and keep the 747-400 in pax service.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 11):

But I have to admit the NW A330s are elegant in their own right. They look smart in NW's livery.

not elegant in their own right....down right beauties I say!!


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N1120A
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
Something doesn't smell right about this part. If the range of the 772 is ~8000 miles, which routes does NW fly in the Pacific that are ~7000 miles? Even DTW-NRT is only 6400 miles.

PW4090 powered 772ERs are certified 8000 pounds lower than Trent 892/895 or GE90-92/94 models

Quoting TwoLz2Rn (Reply 12):
will the 333's ever do trans-pacific flights?

Not if NW expects to get there.
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twolz2rn
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 12:58 am

Quote:
Not if NW expects to get there.



could they use them to replace some of the HNL-Japan routes?
 
flyabunch
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:14 am

Interesting discussion considering that their financial condition is not exactly rosy. Just a few weeks ago, there were threads about when they were going to close down altogether.

I do not think we will see any new purchase commitments until they are sure they are going to survive. As mentioned earlier, they have to get their pilots and FA's on board for the survival to have a chance.

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Amy
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
PW4090 powered 772ERs are certified 8000 pounds lower than Trent 892/895 or GE90-92/94 models

That's a bit misleading. The maximum thrust (I presume you're talking about thrust here) depends on the engine model. In rough terms the GE90-90 has 90,000lbs, the -92 has 92,000 and the -94 94,000 etc. NWA would just have to order T7s with PW4098s and they'd have all the range they needed, right?

Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:58:48]
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Stitch
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:56 am

At this stage in the game, I would think NW would wait for the 787-10, especially if they are considering the 777-200ER.

Perhaps NW may feel 773ERs could help open new routes too small for 744s but too big for A332s/A333s.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 22):
That's a bit misleading. The maximum thrust (I presume you're talking about thrust here) depends on the engine model. In rough terms the GE90-90 has 90,000lbs, the -92 has 92,000 and the -94 94,000 etc. NWA would just have to order T7s with PW4098s and they'd have all the range they needed, right?

Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

If NW had an indefinite fuel hedge the PW4098 might be a feasible/smart option.

In reality, the PW4098 was a class-A coat hangar abortion.

The 4098 was a few percent off its fuel target... which is a large problem in and of itself. This problem is compounded if one crunches the "carry fuel to carry fuel" numbers (particularly when applied to longer range, higher MTOW routes).
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 4):
none of the pilots have heard anything, and there is nothing about it on the PFAA, or NWAPLA webpage

The 777 is in the pilot pay scale table.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 21):
I do not think we will see any new purchase commitments until they are sure they are going to survive. As mentioned earlier, they have to get their pilots and FA's on board for the survival to have a chance.

With the price of fuel lately, a better survival option might actually be a fuel saving alternative to the current older airplanes in their fleet. That in itself could save them millions per month.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 3:16 am

Northwest I suspect is studying what happened in the 80s and 90s when the 767 and 777 massivly fragmented the atlantic market. The 787 is likely to do the same to the trans pacific market, and the results might be devestating to Northwest unless they have a good passenger/seat mix.
 
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fxramper
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 3:19 am

Spoke with a pilot for NW (MEM based flying 757) whose wife is a ramp agent here in AUS for FX. He said the 777 is on the board as far as a exit plan from Chp 11. Don't expect even rumors though until NW gets out of the red.  Smile
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting 4everRC (Reply 14):
I don't think so. Without researching it in detail, I thought the reason for the 332s was because the 333s don't have the range, even from SEA/PDX/SFO/LAX.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (like I have to ask...).

Didn't NW operate the 333's on the PDX-NRT route for a short period, until they got more 332's from Airbus? I know they started the route with DC-10's, but I thought they moved to 333's for a short period, too?
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F22KA
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 4:26 am

There is nothing more beautiful than a 777 in NW new colors. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Airbus. It's like comparing a Cadillac with a Renault. I flew from CDG to FRA last summer with a A-320. My goodness! It felt like a Bus. (Old Russian made bus). Freaky...
 
Amy
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 5:03 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 24):
Quoting Amy (Reply 22):
That's a bit misleading. The maximum thrust (I presume you're talking about thrust here) depends on the engine model. In rough terms the GE90-90 has 90,000lbs, the -92 has 92,000 and the -94 94,000 etc. NWA would just have to order T7s with PW4098s and they'd have all the range they needed, right?

Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

If NW had an indefinite fuel hedge the PW4098 might be a feasible/smart option.

In reality, the PW4098 was a class-A coat hangar abortion.

The 4098 was a few percent off its fuel target... which is a large problem in and of itself. This problem is compounded if one crunches the "carry fuel to carry fuel" numbers (particularly when applied to longer range, higher MTOW routes).

Hmm, yes I heard such things about the 4098. Are there no varients of the PW4000 that would satisfy NWA? Would they be better to go GE or RR? I'd guess GE because of the DC-10s (and 787s? i forget which engine they ordered).
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MaxQ2351
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 31):
I'd guess GE because of the DC-10s (and 787s? i forget which engine they ordered).

NWA ordered what will be the 787-851 with RR Trents (still suprised at that one!!)

Since Boeing intends to have cockpit commonality between the 777 and 787, I'd imagine NWA will try to make their fleet of T7's and Dreamliners "common" too, and order their 777's with Trents.

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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 29):
Didn't NW operate the 333's on the PDX-NRT route for a short period, until they got more 332's from Airbus? I know they started the route with DC-10's, but I thought they moved to 333's for a short period, too?

We did operate the DC10 initially, but switched to the A332 after 7 months. The 332 has been the only aircraft to operate the PDX-NRT. The 333 operated the SEA-AMS for roughly 6-7 months before it was replaced by a 332.
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N908AW
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 6:13 am

 rotfl  What's this I hear about fleet commonolity?

That'd add even less sense to Northwest's fleet than they already don't have.
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PanAm747
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 6:19 am

Slightly off topic, but how is NW dealing with the different fleet types in terms of maintenance and commonality?

I know the DC-9 is serving them well, and the A320 seems to be a good match for their domestic routes, but occasionally I see a 757 flying into SAN, and the long-haul flights seem to be split between 747's (Boeing), DC-10's (McDonnell Douglas, R.I.P.), and A330's (Airbus).

Perhaps it's just my perception, but it seems as though every other airline has a solid grasp on its fleet consolidations - Boeings across the board for CO and DL, MD's and Boeings for AA, Airbus for HP/US, a mix of Airbus (short-haul) and Boeing (long-haul) for United - but NW just seems to be all over the place.

If it works for NW, then more power to them, but am I the only one who remembers USAir's schizophrenic approach to aircraft years ago?
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NLINK
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 6:33 am

The 330-300 has been a substitute on the PDX-NRT routes less than a handful of times.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting F22KA (Reply 30):
Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Airbus. It's like comparing a Cadillac with a Renault. I flew from CDG to FRA last summer with a A-320. My goodness! It felt like a Bus. (Old Russian made bus). Freaky...

HAHAHAHA  laughing   rotfl 

Sorry, couldn't help it. hehe
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 7:10 am

It would be great if they did get the 777's. However, they have placed a large order for the A330-200 and 300's. As far as more space and comfort, I will have to take the B777 everytime. I've been on the A330 and A340's and I found them to be uncomfortable as far as seats and spacing between the seats. I know this changes from airline to airline. But, I have flown on several airlines that have these planes and the B777 wins everytime with me. Sorry....
 
American777
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 16):
What engines would NW buy for any possible 777 order?

Most of the aircraft types NW operates, are powered by PW engines and probably that will be the obvious engine type NW will select for the Boeing 777 if they ever order.

I bet if Boeing was to offer the Boeing 777-200/LR and the Boeing 777-300/ER with RR and PW engines also, a lot of current 777 operators would order it immediately.
 smile 
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Amy (Reply 22):
Or were you talking MTOW? Either way i'm sure a PW4098 would cover it.

He's talking MTOW.

The highest MTOW a Pratt-powered B772ER is certified is 648,000 lbs. The Ge/RR -200ER with the same engine thrust options are certified to 656,000 lbs. That's a considerable amount of weight that must be left behind (either fuel or payload) if dispatching at MTOW.

And as others have said, the PW4098 is something a new customer won't touch with a stick. The engine lost Boeing SAA and LanChile who dropped interest in the B777 after the poor SFC results became apparant.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting F22KA (Reply 30):
There is nothing more beautiful than a 777 in NW new colors. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about Airbus. It's like comparing a Cadillac with a Renault. I flew from CDG to FRA last summer with a A-320. My goodness! It felt like a Bus. (Old Russian made bus). Freaky...

I assume you're saying the quality of the Airbus feels as lousy as the quality of a cadillac or any other American domestic brand? Sorry... couldn't resist... I find those car-comparisons quite funny (though invalid)
 
ScottB
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
It would've been beneficial from the very beginning, but the company was cheap(masking it as not being compatible with the fleet or our operation) and went for the A330, because Airbus Industrie gave the aircraft to us for a song.

And Northwest was sitting on 16 outstanding A330 orders which had been made back in 1989 (yes, 1989) and which had been deferred in March 1996 to 2004-2005.
 
MarkC
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 8:06 am

4098's are not an option for anyone.

I think only 12 were ever made. Only 3 are in revenue service now....on a single KAL plane with a spare. Once those last 2 reach life limit on some of the major rotating parts, they will go back to PW, and maybe onto museums like quite a few of the other 4098's
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 8:59 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 43):
And Northwest was sitting on 16 outstanding A330 orders which had been made back in 1989 (yes, 1989) and which had been deferred in March 1996 to 2004-2005.

Actually, it was the 15-20 A340's that were ordered in 1989, that were deferred until 1994, when changed those orders to additional A320's. An order for 16 A330's were made in 1997, but deferred when we purchased 4 more 2nd hand DC10's form 1998-2000. In Febuary of 01, we finally committed to Airbus for a firm order of 24 A330's, and 22 757-300's, (the 757 order 16 757-300's and 7 757-200's). That is what was announced on 21FEB01 which coincided with the announcement Jon Dasburg was leaving and Richard Anderson was taking over.
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behramjee
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 9:17 am

I would imagine that NW needs the extra capacity of the B 744 for their busy and high demand transpacific nonstop flights from DTW and SEA respectively. The B 773ER would hold at least 50-70 less seats than their B 744s in a 2 class configuration of J and Y.

I would like to know how NW in the face of high fuel prices for the last year and a half still persists with its gas guzzling and ageing B 742 pax acft + DC 10s and DC 9s on domestic and international routes. Doesnt it want to save $$$ from its fuel bill by retiring these acft from pax service and replacing them with more fuel efficient ones???

Boeing can look into the option of having NW in the future trade in their A 333s/ 332s for a large B 789/788 order like they did with SQ in the mid 1990s with their A 343s  Wink
 
flywithjohn
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 11:52 am

Well I don't see an reason for ordering 767 777 and 787 at the same time. and right now considering there money problems there not going to be ordering much. I used to fly the DC-10 for NW and 777 has always been considered for a replacement. But NW is very hard to predict these days. I'm with FDX and I still kinda would like to return to NW I was furloughed in in Feb 2005.
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Stitch
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 45):
I would like to know how NW in the face of high fuel prices for the last year and a half still persists with its gas guzzling and ageing B 742 pax acft + DC 10s and DC 9s on domestic and international routes. Doesnt it want to save $$$ from its fuel bill by retiring these acft from pax service and replacing them with more fuel efficient ones?

The debt service and payments on brand-new widebodies and narrowbodies would probably exceed the savings in fuel and maintenance for a good period of time, so NW probably feels it is more prudent to conserve cash flow now until they have completed reorganization.
 
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Wed May 03, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting MarkC (Reply 43):
4098's are not an option for anyone.

I think only 12 were ever made. Only 3 are in revenue service now....on a single KAL plane with a spare. Once those last 2 reach life limit on some of the major rotating parts, they will go back to PW, and maybe onto museums like quite a few of the other 4098's

Interesting. What is KAL using to replace the 4098's?
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RE: Northwest Buying 777s?

Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
In Febuary of 01, we finally committed to Airbus for a firm order of 24 A330's, and 22 757-300's, (the 757 order 16 757-300's and 7 757-200's).

Jetjack74, can you explain the conflict between Northwest's annual report stating that they have 32 A330 orders, whereas the Airbus order book records 40 orders?

[Edited 2006-05-03 20:49:04]

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