TWAAF9
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F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 12:51 am

From a public bulletin to employee email this morning:

Communications Bulletin 07-11

May 2, 2006

Frontier Announces New Service Between Los Angeles and San Francisco

Later this morning in two unique press conferences to be held in both Los Angeles and San Francisco, we will announce new, non-stop service between San Francisco International Airport (SFO) and Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) beginning on June 29, 2006. This new service will commence with a total of five daily flights between the two cities. Obviously, this is very exciting news for all of us at Frontier, but undoubtedly you will have some questions about the announcement, so we had Frontier President and CEO Jeff Potter answer some of the bigger questions for you in advance in the Q & A below.

Why are we flying point-to-point? Don’t we run a hub and spoke operation?

Yes, we do run a hub and spoke operation, meaning our flights connect out of our hub in Denver. This announcement does not mean that we are moving away from that model, only that we saw a great opportunity to grow outside of Denver as well as mitigate some of the current constraints at DIA. Know that the majority of our growth will continue to happen in Denver. We also saw the need to bring the low fares and outstanding customer service that we are known for to the underserved route, as we will be the only low cost carrier (LCC) to serve the popular non-stop route between LAX and SFO.

Why these two markets?

As stated in the press release, John Happ, Frontier’s Senior Vice President of Marketing and Planning commented, “This is a great day for Frontier and for California as we provide a better and more cost-effective travel option to connect Southern and Northern California. We feel strongly that the San Francisco market is underserved for high-value, low fare service and there is clearly a strong business and leisure connection between these two cities. We are eager to begin service so that we can help bring low fares back to their proper Bay Area home: San Francisco International Airport.”


In addition, the new service complements our already existing flights — seven daily flights between Los Angeles and Denver, and five daily flights between San Francisco and Denver. As stated in today’s press release, “This new service from Frontier between SFO and LAX make summer travel in California even more enticing," said San Francisco International Airport Director, John L. Martin. "Arriving or departing from SFO is an authentic San Francisco experience, from the fresh, local food and beverage options such as Perry's to on-site BART service that bring travelers downtown in less than 30 minutes. SFO's full range of services and amenities, combined with Frontier's great customer service and low fares, make for a great new option in travel between SFO and LAX.”

Is this like when we launched our LAX expansion/focus city?

No, it is not. I want to be very clear that this is completely different than the LAX expansion we tried several years ago. This is a very targeted, highly established and high traffic route with no current LCC service. So, we have the opportunity to come in with lower fares (the lowest), fly a better product (the best!), show passengers what the best customer service in the industry feels like and offer an alternative in flying out of SFO instead of Oakland, which is the only low fare choice many passengers have at this time.

Will we be hiring more people?

Yes, with the additional service, we will be hiring 40 new employees in Los Angeles for a total of 70 employees, and will utilize three common-use gates in Terminal 3. In San Francisco, we will hire over 40 new employees for positions that we previously outsourced, and the new flights will coincide with our move to our new gates, 41 and 43. We also intend to expand ticket counter space at both airports to between six and eight positions, including four kiosk or express check-in units.

What kind of planes will fly that route and where will they come from?

We will fly our mainline A318s and A319s on the route. Some will come from new planes we get from Airbus and some from changes in schedules and frequencies.

Are we looking at any other point-to-point options?

Not at this time, but we will keep you posted.

How are we letting people know about the new service?

We have a highly targeted advertising and media campaign that will start this week, both in California and here in Denver, so hopefully, you will all see and hear more about it in the paper or on TV. Of course there will be signage throughout both LAX and SFO, and in addition we have come up with some exciting incentives for passengers to try out the new route including:



· Introductory fares starting at $59 each way

· Free DIRECTV for a limited time on this route

· Double EarlyReturns miles for a limited time



Well, I know you are probably going to have more questions and we will do our best to keep you informed and updated. I hope that each and every one of you is excited and on board as we continue our growth. Lastly, the new schedules between LAX and SFO are as follows:



Los Angeles-San Francisco
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
1927
7:15 a.m.
8:35 a.m.
Daily

1929
8:15 a.m.
9:35 a.m.
Daily

1913
12:30 p.m.
1:59 p.m.
Daily

1917
4:50 p.m.
6:10 p.m.
Daily

1921
9:00 p.m.
10:20 p.m.
Daily




San Francisco-Los Angeles

Flight Number
Departs
Arrives
Frequency

1920
6:10 a.m.
7:30 a.m.
Daily*

1926
10:20 a.m.
11:40 a.m.
Daily

1914
2:35 p.m.
3:55 p.m.
Daily

1918
6:55 p.m.
8:15 p.m.
Daily

1928
8:25 p.m.
9:45 p.m.
Daily


All times given in local arrival or departure city times.
Ahh, the power of SABRE...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 12:56 am

LA-Bay Area, that is gonna be hard for F9. Doubt either UA, AA, WN or AS will react too kindly to another entrant in this market.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:01 am

Very, very surprised by this...and not in a good way.

I'm dissapointed to say the least. F9 needs to start up some non-DEN routes, but this is not what I had in mind. They are going to get killed in this market.
 
Falcon Flyer
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:02 am

Interesting, especially after their experience with the LAX off hub trips from a few years ago. The planners must see something that we don't.
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InTheSky74
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:03 am

Free DirecTV for a limited time?

How much do they normally charge for it?

Rob
 
MSYtristar
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting TWAAF9 (Thread starter):
show passengers what the best customer service in the industry feels like

You have to love the classic internal propaganda. Every airline says this stuff, and from my experience, all of the LCC's offer excellent service.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:09 am

I'm sure I'll give them a shot, but I certainly would have preferred BUR-SFO
 
nzblue
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 4):
How much do they normally charge for it?

Normally, DirecTV service on Frontier is offered for a $5 charge.

NZblue
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:12 am

I'm not real familiar with Southern California, so this is an ignorant question, but I will ask anyway. SFO is clearly a good choice for targeting O&D pax in the bay area, between its location and the relative ease of getting there on BART or by car. Can the same be said for LAX and Southern California? Would there be a better L.A. area airport for this service? One poster said he would have preferred BUR... would that be a better choice for something like this which is targeting exclusively O&D?
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MSYtristar
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 3):
The planners must see something that we don't.

I wouldn't speak too highly about most of the people working at the F9 market planning/revenue management department . Most aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed. A couple of them are qualified, but several have been hired based on their knowing someone at the office, not based on their merit. Unfortunately I witnessed this first hand.

Back to the topic at hand, this seems like a drastic move (starting LAX-SFO) with no clear motive....except trying to compete with UA and WN. No matter how good the service is, five flights per day cannot compete with the virtual shuttle service that UA and WN offer between the two cities (and yes, OAK is not SFO, but it is convenient for many).

I hope F9 enjoys being in the red because if they keep on doing things like this, they'll be there for awhile.

Just my opinion.

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:16:15]

[Edited 2006-05-02 18:16:49]
 
hiflyer
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:27 am

"Constrained DEN" "Underserved route"

Flighttime they are burning there means less potential for fighting LUV at DEN and begs the question of are they giving up at DEN because of LUV and looking elsewhere?

Too many carriers have proved...and are still proving...that SFO is horrible for dependable flying. F9 has an ontime machine with DEN and needs to go to similar airports or risk throwing the DEN hub into disarray with continually late trips dragging in from the west. You know at least some of these trips will be round robins..ie DEN SFO LAX DEN and vice versa which means SFO weather will nail both the SFO and the LAX arrivals back into DEN.
 
Junction
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:32 am

I'm surprised an LCC didn't move in on this a long time ago. LAX-SFO has got to be one of the last markets in the U.S. offered only by UA and AA (except for the one AS repositioning flight). It also seems this has been the longest LAX-SFO has ever gone without an LCC in it.
 
ScottB
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:44 am

Well, I suppose I will go against the conventional wisdom here and say that it will be interesting to see how this new service pans out for Frontier. As far as I can tell, the fares look to be comparable to what WN is charging between OAK/SJC and LAX/BUR/SNA/ONT. Part of the story, of course, will be how AA and UA respond in the market, as well as how much traffic shifts from LAX-OAK (and less so LAX-SJC) to LAX-SFO as a result. I don't see much traffic shifting otherwise, given that a BUR-OAK passenger would probably be flying LAX-OAK if they preferred LAX as their origin. The BUR/SNA/ONT-SFO markets are relatively small anyway.

Five daily flights is probably the bare minimum F9 needs to be remotely competitive in this market, and they have the morning and afternoon business peaks reasonably covered. If United responds aggressively, though, their huge schedule advantage will make life difficult for Frontier. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now; at some point, Frontier does need to build successful routes which don't touch DEN if they intend to continue to grow.
 
F9Animal
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:51 am

Actually this does come as a shock. I will say this though... The market is hot. It will require alot of marketing though. SFO and LAX are going to need billboards and commercials to raise awareness of the markets.

The only downside is...... Constant delays due to weather and flow control.
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quickmover
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 1:53 am

I can't understand why it would take 40 additional employees at each station for 5 additional flights each way. The point to point idea between existing stations is a good idea. The facilities and people are better utilized and the cost of operating should be less compared to opening a new station. I think they will do well on this route traffic wise. Hopefully they can keep the costs down.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 13):
It will require alot of marketing though.

...if only F9 did non-DEN centered marketing  Yeah sure
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iowaman
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:03 am

I'll give it six months tops, heck WN has 22 daily flights from LAX-OAK alone.
 
WhiteBirdFlyer
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:04 am

As a frequent flyer between the SF Bay Area and Los Angeles, I almost always choose WN from OAK to BUR. I'd rather fly out of SFO sometimes because I could get to SFO via BART and not deal with parking $$$$ which often cost more than the airfare on WN. However, I rarely use SFO-LAX primarily because in my experience UA's intra-California service is horrible compared with WN.

However, if F9 can get a good service going, they'd have a lot of my business. To be sure, SFO is heck on schedules due to unpredictable weather delays apparently unique to this part of the globe, but UA has also never put much "fun" into their SFO-LAX service, either. Due to their position at SFO, UA has let their LAX service slide to bare minimums. Give pax a good alternative to UA and, even with delays that everyone in the SF area is used to already, I think F9 will easily fill their planes. That's a good start for something.

Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer
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LAXintl
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:04 am

While LAX-SFO has considerable O&D demand and relatively high yields, United certainly will not let this move by Frontier go unnoticed.

In addition Frontier must also face fierce competition from other established corridor carriers such as Southwest, Alaska and American, plus even Jetblue now doing business between LGB and OAK.

Its nice to see Frontier think outside the box, however they certainly managed to pick one competitive market to try. Also I hope for Frontiers sake they manage to get their name out and advertise significantly more than when they previously had their LAX focus city if they expect people to associate them with the intra-state flights.
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FLY2LIM
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Doubt either UA, AA, WN or AS will react too kindly to another entrant in this market.

Not sure many of you recall that WN used to fly to SFO but pulled out.

Also, it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops" considering the flight is a little over one hour. Where are they going to stop, Monterey?
FLY2LIM
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KL808
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:11 am

wow this will give me the chance to fly on a A318 on a usually very over priced route.

Drew
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BNinMSY
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:14 am

When is F9 returning to MSY?
 
AADC10
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:17 am

I do not think that LAX-SFO is necessarily the disaster that some previous posters have made it out to be. Sure they have to fight UA head-to-head, but they have been doing that in DEN all along. AA is also there but probably does not need to protect its turf like UA.

When the fog rolls in, SFO is a disaster, but F9 can keep one pair of planes to go up and down all day on what would be almost entirely an O&D route, to prevent delays from rolling through the system. They are connecting two existing stations, so the startup costs are not nearly as great as adding a new city.

SFO now has a Bart station in the airport for quick trip to the City while OAK passengers have to take the AirBart bus. OAK is also has few gates available and only one commerical runway for the forseeable future. OAK is going to hit the wall on capacity soon.

DEN is in the comic position of having more capacity than any airport on the planet but F9 is running out of space because they do not want to pay to have Terminal A extended and UA is squatting on gates to force them to pay (just as UA had to pay for its massive Terminal B).
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
LA-Bay Area, that is gonna be hard for F9

Correction, it will be hard for UA and AA in the SFO-LAX markets, where each command a fortune for a walk up.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 19):
Also, it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops"

The flights are "nonstop" so there is nothing misleading!

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
While LAX-SFO has considerable O&D demand and relatively high yields, United certainly will not let this move by Frontier go unnoticed

There is a very good chance that UAL will rotate the 777 or 744 into 3 daily rotations on the SFO-LAX flights, in the aircrafts downtimes. Some people may say that does not make sense, and others are seriously thinking it is a brilliant idea. Instead of 3 737 or A320 flights there would be a single 777 or 744 in its place. Take that ratio at peak periods - 7a, 1p, 6p in which they may operate the widebodies and in the other off peak hours such as 6a, 9a, 10a, 2p, 3, 4p, 7p, 8p, 9p, 10p and operate the A320-A319.
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Junction
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting WhiteBirdFlyer (Reply 17):
Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer

Your entire post is exactly what F9's wants to hear. The gamble is - can they move OAK people on to their planes that really want to fly to/from SFO? Marketing will be the key, and all they really need to advertise is that they are the only LCC flying between LAX and SFO. Even if UA and AA match, F9 will be a new alternative.
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:29 am

Let's not forget that UA has a virtual monopoly on this route, and often charges well over $200 for this 55 minute flight.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
While LAX-SFO has considerable O&D demand and relatively high yields, United certainly will not let this move by Frontier go unnoticed.

Agreed. Remember also the massive amounts of UA and AA loyal fliers in both Norcal and Socal and for the 55 minute flight, the option to go on F9 wouldn't be worth it. DirectTV, IFE for such a short flight is no real incentive to forfeit earning possible segments and miles. F9 will have an uphill battle. Add to this the weather dealys at SFO and it's ripple across their system (ala Southwest).

I fly this route often and lately even with 7 day advance purchase, fares have been around $159-$189 round trip. That's reasonable and competitive with WN out of OAK/SJC. SFO-SNA on the other hand, demands the premium - I'm going next week and the fare is $650 round trip (thank GOD the company pays for it).
 
WhiteBirdFlyer
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Junction (Reply 24):
Your entire post is exactly what F9's wants to hear.

I'll have to send their marketing department a bill.  Smile

Quoting Junction (Reply 24):
The gamble is - can they move OAK people on to their planes that really want to fly to/from SFO? Marketing will be the key, and all they really need to advertise is that they are the only LCC flying between LAX and SFO. Even if UA and AA match, F9 will be a new alternative.

Since you put it that way, I think I may see where some of their gamble is coming from, and how shrewd it is. I used to fly 3x weekly from SFO-LAX and/or OAK-BUR for years and contrary to those not experienced in this market, the UA intra-California operation at SFO often was a disaster, weather problems notwithstanding. UA acted as if they had a monopoly (which they really did essentially) and never really tried to make service anything special. Often enough it wasn't even tolerable. There are a lot of business and entertainment industry folks in this market who aren't waiting for advertising to hit but actively hope and look for alternatives to UA. Word-of-mouth will probably fill F9's planes after a few relatively inexpensive 1/2 page ads in the SF Chronicle.

I'd also add that it's not just an F9 thing: many in this area would be happy for -any- carrier to offer a decent alternative (and hence competition) for the SFO-LAX route.

Cordially,
WhiteBirdFlyer
WhiteBirdFlyer, currently near SFO
 
ikramerica
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:55 am

While it is risky, there are reasons that make sense.

CA is a "destination" and it is an O&D destination for airlines like F9 and WN. But, like CO, you can't get from one of the two major destinations and the other without either going back 1/2 way across the country to the hub, or fly another carrier.

UA offers it from DEN (you can fly DEN-SFO-LAX-DEN for example) but F9 doesn't.

If F9 sees demand for O&D from their research (do they have research?), I say give it a try. It sounds like they may be getting a few more planes than they are ready for, and looking for someplace to put them.

I will fly F9 to/from SFO this summer. So that's 2 whole tickets. If that helps.
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LAXintl
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 22):
Sure they have to fight UA head-to-head, but they have been doing that in DEN all along

Yes, however LAX-SFO is one of UA's top-10 routes in both regards to daily passenger volume and yields.

Of all the overlap Denver flying for UA and Frontier do, only 3 markets fall within top-10 categorization.

United being the number one carrier in both LAX and SFO, along with the largest frequent flyer following in the state, for the most part owns the city-pair market, with adjacent airports well covered by Southwest whom technically is the largest intra-state carrier in California.
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alphascan
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 9):
I wouldn't speak too highly about most of the people working at the F9 market planning/revenue management department .

ALL of F9's new routes in the past year have performed up to system averages far faster than the one year period the carrier anticipated. Just because the planners didn't agree with your MSY wishes doesn't make them "not the sharpest tools in the shed". Every outstation employee at every carrier wants more service at their airport and finds it frustrating that the planning department can't see things their way. The difference is that the planning department's charge is to see the "revenue-based big picture", and not look at things with insular tunnel vision.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 5):
Every airline says this stuff, and from my experience, all of the LCC's offer excellent service.

F9 is the only LCC competing in the city pair. They offer the only LIVE TV in the city pair. They have wider seats and more legroom in all of their coach service than American's and Alaska's coach service and 2/3 of United's coach service.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 9):
No matter how good the service is, five flights per day cannot compete with the virtual shuttle service that UA and WN offer

They have flights scheduled at the peak times when most passengers want to fly.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 10):
"Constrained DEN" "Underserved route"

Flighttime they are burning there means less potential for fighting LUV at DEN and begs the question of are they giving up at DEN because of LUV and looking elsewhere?

"Constrained DEN" is a gate shortage issue. Not a WN issue.

"Underserved route". Perhaps they mean underserved by a LCC. There are about 45 daily flights each way in the city pair prior to F9's entry.

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 10):
You know at least some of these trips will be round robins..ie DEN SFO LAX DEN and vice versa which means SFO weather will nail both the SFO and the LAX arrivals back into DEN.

By looking at the sked, it appears all but two of the 10 flights are served with the same aircraft all day. The exceptions being the first flight out of LAX and the last flight into LAX. There is only one of those ten flights with the potential of even effecting DEN ops and that is the first LAX/SFO flight of the day, the least likely to be late.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 12):
Five daily flights is probably the bare minimum F9 needs to be remotely competitive in this market, and they have the morning and afternoon business peaks reasonably covered. If United responds aggressively, though, their huge schedule advantage will make life difficult for Frontier. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now; at some point, Frontier does need to build successful routes which don't touch DEN if they intend to continue to grow.

I agree. Until just last year, I believe five flights was the most F9 had between any city pair on it's system.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
iowaman
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Malpensasfo (Reply 23):
Correction, it will be hard for UA and AA in the SFO-LAX markets, where each command a fortune for a walk up.

No it won't, they will most likely price match and dump capacity. UA also have the loyal frequent fliers on both ends, as well as connecting traffic on each end, which F9 has neither FF on either ends nor connecting traffic, let alone the name in either city. Then you got AA with a name in LAX, and then you also have WN with a load of flights on LAX-OAK/SJC, let alone all the SNA/ONT/BUR-OAK and SJC. AS also has a couple flights on 734's on LAX-SFO I believe.

Good luck F9, but I think they have many other opportunities out of DEN such as RDU and elsewhere.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 19):
Also, it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops" considering the flight is a little over one hour. Where are they going to stop, Monterey?

Well, maybe this note is for pax that remember actually stopping in MRY, FAT, SCK, MOD, MCE, etc, many years ago on a trip between NoCal and SoCal.

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 14):
I can't understand why it would take 40 additional employees at each station for 5 additional flights each way



Quoting TWAAF9 (Thread starter):
In San Francisco, we will hire over 40 new employees for positions that we previously outsourced,

At least at SFO, they will switch from contract to own personnel.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 20):
wow this will give me the chance to fly on a A318 on a usually very over priced route.

The route is often offered for very good deals

Quoting BNinMSY (Reply 21):
When is F9 returning to MSY?

Your guess is as good as mine
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:41 am

I'm really curious how all of this is going to play out. I'm a little surprised at this announcement but I'm sure that there is enough of a market for them to cut away a piece to keep. That said the other carriers on this route are not goin to be thrilled and will likely fight hard.

Incidentally does anyone operate LGB LAX?

YOWza
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 34):
Incidentally does anyone operate LGB LAX?

No one runs that, it is only a 15nm trip.
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saxdiva
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 34):
Incidentally does anyone operate LGB LAX?

LA Metro rail.
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 36):
Quoting YOWza (Reply 34):
Incidentally does anyone operate LGB LAX?

LA Metro rail.

Don't we wish. You have to take busses at both ends.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:05 am

I think it is an iunteresting move, that certainly has some risks to it - but heck - why not?

And given how much a number of posters cheer "competition", I am surprised at the cr*p that some of those same posters are dumping on it.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 2):
I'm dissapointed to say the least. F9 needs to start up some non-DEN routes, but this is not what I had in mind.

Disappointed? That's an odd word. Let me guess why:

Quoting BNinMSY (Reply 21):
When is F9 returning to MSY?

You could as easily ask when they are returning to BOS - but I think that is unlikely, too.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 9):
I wouldn't speak too highly about most of the people working at the F9 market planning/revenue management department .

Gee - I don't think Mr. Morenc was there when you were with Frontier.

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 19):
it's a little misleading to advertise LAX-SFO "non stops"

Okay - I give up. They are "non-stops". So how is that misleading?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
...if only F9 did non-DEN centered marketing  

I guess you didn't read the press release.  Smile

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 14):
I can't understand why it would take 40 additional employees at each station for 5 additional flights each way.

It doesn't. In SFO they are moving to their own staff for all flights, not outsourcing.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 31):
F9 has neither FF on either ends nor connecting traffic,

They fly 7 x daily LAX-DEN and 5 mx daily SFO-DEN. They may not have a huge FF base in LAX and SFO, but I am sure they have some.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 31):
F9 has neither FF on either ends nor connecting traffic,

Not yet, but everyone has to start somewhere. They have applied for LAX-SJD. They may not get it, but there are other available routes to Mexico..

They have told the DOT they would fly LAX-GDL is it ever becomes available, for example.

Put it this way - Frontier is not yet twelve years old. When Southwest was a similar age, they had only recently started flying to California.

mariner
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nzblue
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:07 am

Just an FYI...

F9 just recently (in the past hour or two) added this route to its interactive route map, though it's a bit hard to distinguish on the map itself unless you scroll over either of the two cities involved.

http://www.frontierairlines.com/booknow/routemap.html
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N1120A
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
You could as easily ask when they are returning to BOS - but I think that is unlikely, too.

Except that BOS and its 1 flight proved unprofitable, while MSY had good loads, yields and multiple flights. F9 got spooked because of Katrina and now United is reaping the benefit.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
Put it this way - Frontier is not yet twelve years old. When Southwest was a similar age, they had only recently started flying to California.

Except that at the point WN started flying to California, they had only been allowed to do so for 4 years.
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ikramerica
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting NZblue (Reply 39):
F9 just recently (in the past hour or two) added this route to its interactive route map

They also just sent an email to all registered Rapid Rewards customers about it, too.

Quote:
"Question: What is the most cost-effective, fastest and comfortable way to get between Los Angeles International Airport and San Francisco International Airport?

Answer: A Frontier Airlines Airbus 319 with 131 of your best friends.

Frontier Airlines is introducing service between LAX and SFO starting June 29, 2006. With 5 daily nonstop flights we will be flying to the airport you want to go to for the price you want to pay—$59* each way. You will also get 24 channels of free DirecTV and double EarlyReturns® miles** when you fly."
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
quickmover
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 38):
It doesn't. In SFO they are moving to their own staff for all flights, not outsourcing.

Do they outsource LAX as well?
 
N1120A
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
They also just sent an email to all registered Rapid Rewards customers about it, too.

I am a Rapid Rewards member and haven't gotten any such thing. Do you mean EarlyReturns?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Except that BOS and its 1 flight proved unprofitable, while MSY had good loads, yields and multiple flights. F9 got spooked because of Katrina and now United is reaping the benefit.

It proved unprofitable because of 9/11. I used to live in Boston and flew regularly wih Frontier to LAX and/or SFO.

They had 2 x daily BOS-DEN, flights were always full, they were talking about a 3rd daily.

Then - 9/11 came along.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
F9 got spooked because of Katrina and now United is reaping the benefit.

No. Frontier decided that it was better to proect their many flights to Cancun than their 1 x daily to New Orleans.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Except that at the point WN started flying to California, they had only been allowed to do so for 4 years.

So they had four years - and they didn't.  Smile

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 42):
Do they outsource LAX as well?

No, they have their own staff and are adding - or have added - underwing.

But - you said "each" station? I was explaining SFO.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
AeroWesty
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:37 am

So what do SFO-LAX passengers want?

1) Frequent service
2) On-time flights
3) Few hassles

If you give them low fares too, all the better. If not, they'll fly WN to OAK.

No, UA won't throw some 747's on the route. Remember the disaster the L-1011 was for PSA (part of it being taking too long to board/disembark).

UA/AA will probably toss some cheap seats and mileage bonuses on the heap. I've plenty of $29 tickets from the late 80's/early 90's to testify to that much.

Part of how US killed their own lucrative intrastate market was by tagging too many flights onto out-of-state services. Plane delayed 3 hours because of snow somewhere? You'll see people walk back to their old carrier never to return.

UA has seen competitors come and go over many decades, and they're still there. It's been what, 15-20 years since they had a direct hourly competitor? No wonder they can charge ~$250 for a walk-up fare and people will pay it.

Much success to F9 ... they'll need it, but I wouldn't count them out. Remember AA has been able to sustain 7 flights a day now after pulling back and trashing the old AirCal network. Anything can happen.
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flashmeister
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:39 am

I'm not totally down on this move, but it worries me. I think Frontier definitely bit off a lot with this, and I hope they can deliver better than their last LAX foray.

F9 is the only LCC competing in the city pair. They offer the only LIVE TV in the city pair. They have wider seats and more legroom in all of their coach service than American's and Alaska's coach service and 2/3 of United's coach service.

The flight is an hour. Legroom and seats aren't all that huge of an argument for such a short flight, and certainly not enough to sway even moderately-loyal FF members.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:54 am

Wow best of luck to them. I had always thought HP/US should do that route...maybe someday.

I priced a one way fare on F9 LAX-SFO in Amadeus and it's only $69!! Pretty cheap.
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travelin man
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:56 am

SFO-SNA would have been a better choice, IMO. Less competition in a very high-fare market. Add to that, both are current F9 stations (unlike BUR).

Perhaps slots weren't available at SNA, but other airlines seem to be able to get them (see Aloha starting SNA-SMF).

I just hope F9 does a better job advertising here in LA than it did during the "focus city" days. F9 was almost non-existent in terms of advertising.
 
as739x
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RE: F9 To Start LAX-SFO Nonstops

Wed May 03, 2006 4:56 am

Quickmover: No, they have their own staff at LAX and contract out to CO at SFO. It will be nice to see them get their own staffing at SFO. Well i have moxed opnions on this. T-3 has gate issues here at LAX already. Just one more RON at a terminal that will be having gates pulled out of it this summer. On the other hand, hey its much easier for me to get home now, yeah!

Iowaman: Alaska flys currently 1 737-900 daily between SFO-LAX. The pure reason for this flight is to feed the LAX Mexico flights. Don't look for Alaska to respond in any way. UA on the other hand, no F9 is flying between 2 of theirs hub and stepping on UA's toes outside of DEN, interesting!

Fly2lim: non-stop, period. hell where are you going to stop between the two cities, Paso Robles?

Good luck to F9, but I see this as a repeat of Continental Lite trying this route!

ASLAX
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