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Owleye
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SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 2:58 pm

SAS is studying the possibility to buy the RRJ-Sukhoi's Russian Regional Jet because of its low pricing of 20 milllion US$ per piece. The Embraer 190 and the CRJ900 are also in the race for the SAS account.

SAS is eying on this aircraft as a replacement aircraft for its affiliates Blue1 (Finnland), Widerøe (Norway), Air Baltic (Letland), Estonian Air (Estland) and Spanair (Spain).

RRJ expects to have its maiden flight in September 2007. In November 2008 they expect to have it operational.





Source: Luchtvaartnieuws
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?ID=13645
 
Bofredrik
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 4:15 pm

It would be interesting to know how such a study is made by a airline. Anybody who have that info? It must be a lot of things to consider.
 
manni
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 5:36 pm

SNBA is also looking at this jet to replace her regional aircraft. If the Jet is as good as it looks, for which I have no reason to doubt it, it sure will be a fine aircraft. And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

A listprice of about 20 million is mentioned here. I assume that, as with bigger jets, nobody pays the listprice? Since 20 million is probably more than what FR pays for their 737's, what would be the typically discounted price in this categorie of jets of the now offered models? And what are the listprices of these regional jets?
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SASDC8
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 5:44 pm

Interesting to hear that they are considering a Russian aircraft... Still the last I read in the SAS internal magazine, was that they were considering CRJ and Embraer as the most likely new A/C..
In Widerøes case I think only Turbo prop (Bombardier) is likely....

The RRJ looks good though Wink
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PavlovsDog
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 6:01 pm

The RRJ is a very intriguing aircraft. On paper it seems great. Getting SAS as it's first Western, main-stream customer would be huge for Russia so I imagine they would get a steep discount.

I wonder how much politics might be playing in this consideration. The partially state owned Norwegian companies of Statoil and Hydro are currently in strong consideration as main partners in the development of the Stockman gas-field in the Barents Sea. Considering how many billions of dollars and euros Norway will make from that deal annually I can see how partially state owned SAS could be under pressure to look at the RRJ.

This will certainly be an interesting development. If SAS were to go with Sukhoi it will certainly be a huge shot accross the bow of Bombardier, whose aircraft SAS has a lot of.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 6:11 pm

If SAS did it, I would also imagine LH to be the next in line for the RRJ... I would like to see russian jets in western airlines, and since this is a joint venture with lots of western companies, it would very probably also be on western standards in terms of spare parts supply and service support...
 
Treg
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 6:25 pm

Now that's going to be interesting. And I'm afraid that the quality of the aircraft has here less to say than the politics.

Russian aircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-based carrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China. Yes, I know, it is a joint venture, but public perception is another story... I bet it will generate some discussions up here  Wink
 
SNATH
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

I couldn't agree with you more!  bigthumbsup 

A related question. Are the numbers on the tails of the second illustration (60, 75, 95) the number of people each version is supposed to carry? If this is the case, is the first one the only 60-seater out there (as the Embraers and Canadairs seem to have a gap between 50 and 70/75 seats)?

Regards,

Tony
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Rainmaker
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 8:46 pm

I believe that a $ 20 MM tag price is a bit unrealistic for an aircraft like this. Especially if you understand that there won't be apparently much of Russian government money involved. Private investors would try and get a return on their investment (Finmecanica, snecma, the myriad of western suppliers).

Anyway the problem with Russian aviation is NOT whether they can design or build an aircraft. They surely can. The point is, have they got what it takes to deliver the a/c on time and keep them reliable? Designing and tooling is just one half of the engineering requirement. The other half relates to a less glamorous you may say capability: production engineering. that comprises logistics, assembling, testing, component tracking, customer relations (mx). It's one very complicated business overall.

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Beaucaire
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 8:52 pm

The main question -mark with the RRJ-XXX family is the very low engine-nacelle with reference to the runway ( only 40 cm...!!)
If you check the specification drawings supplied by Suchoi,you will be surprised by the mechanical design.
I fully agree on the technical specs being ebsolutely attracive -technology wise the aircraft is great -but I fear some customers might find the small distance between engines and runway dangerous ( inhaust of dust/stones/debris/water..)
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voodoo
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 9:48 pm

re: low ground clearance of RRJ engine intakes,
Maybe they can add some blowpipes/forward exhaust for ground movements like the 737-200 rough field kit had?

What happened to Bombardier's semi-recent interest in the RRJ? If they were to handle marketing, spares, support etc... Embraer might have a problem in future for a change.
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L1329II
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 10:58 pm

Come on now... is it just me or do these airplanes look almost exactly like the A320 line up?

Those sneaky Russians! "Designing" another aircraft that looks ... hhhmmmm ... well just like someone elses design. Yet another Russian A/C designed by someone else!
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Rainmaker (Reply 9):
I believe that a $ 20 MM tag price is a bit unrealistic for an aircraft like this. Especially if you understand that there won't be apparently much of Russian government money involved. Private investors would try and get a return on their investment (Finmecanica, snecma, the myriad of western suppliers).

The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

I hope SAS evaluate the aircraft and the evaluation warrants an order, because it would be great to see their industry get back on its feet in a proper way!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
L1329II
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Wed May 03, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

I hope SAS evaluate the aircraft and the evaluation warrants an order, because it would be great to see their industry get back on its feet in a proper way!

I would love to see what would happen if any US or North American airline were to eval these planes. $20 M is a bargain even for a used airplane.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
vfw614
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering. If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

The RRJ will only be Russian to some extent. Most of the expensive add-ons to the fuselage are "Western" products and come with the related price-tag - avionics, engines, galleys etc. do not care if the fly around in a winged tube from Russia, the UK or the U.S. That said, "westernizing" Russian aircraft
narrows the price gap to some extent (it is, however, still considerable).

By the way, if the maiden flight is scheduled for SEP07, when can we expect roll-out ?

[Edited 2006-05-03 17:21:51]
 
columba
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
And for us, aviation enthousiasts, a nice change from the ussual.

I beg to differ as long as it has no T-tail or rear mounted engines or a completely new design it will not look that different from other new aircrafts that fly around these days.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 15):
The RRJ will only be Russian to some extent. Most of the expensive add-ons to the fuselage are "Western" products and come with the related price-tag - avionics, engines, galleys etc. do not care if the fly around in a winged tube from Russia, the UK or the U.S. That said, "westernizing" Russian aircraft
narrows the price gap to some extent (it is, however, still considerable).

Actually, the article in Flight said that most of the component suppliers of the aircraft are the same people who supply for Airbus and Boeing. As such, the price is the same even with those suppliers. These so called "western" components you mention are standard on the RRJ.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
FCKC
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 3:40 am

It has been said for a long time , that Air France is studying the RRJ for their partner affiliates.

Either RRJ , CRJ ,EMB190............another plane in the huge aircarft type SAS collection !!!
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Treg (Reply 7):
Russian aircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-based carrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Forgive me my ignorance, but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?
 
A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 12):
Those sneaky Russians! "Designing" another aircraft that looks ... hhhmmmm ... well just like someone elses design. Yet another Russian A/C designed by someone else!

Please tell me you're joking...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
EddieDude
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
SAS is studying the possibility to buy the RRJ-Sukhoi's Russian Regional Jet



Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
The Embraer 190 and the CRJ900 are also in the race



Quoting OwlEye (Thread starter):
replacement aircraft for its affiliates Blue1 (Finnland), Widerøe (Norway), Air Baltic (Letland), Estonian Air (Estland) and Spanair (Spain)

What aircraft types will be replaced by the Sukhoi RRJ? I wonder especially in the case of Spanair.

Does Sukhoi have a technological-strategic partner from the west?
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L1329II
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 20):
Please tell me you're joking...

No not really. You mean to tell me these birds look nothing like an airbus 320 series?

What about the Buran? No, that looks nothing like a US space shuttle.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
Joost
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?

SAS owns 47,2% of the Air Baltic shares and 49% of Estonian Air shares.
 
Treg
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 19):
Forgive me my ignorance, but what is the form of affiliation between SAS and Estonian/Air Baltic (other than through the FFP which I am aware of in case of Air Baltic)?

Minority owner. But acts like majority owner. The recent developments have raised quite many eyebrows here in Estonia. Seems that SAS strategy is to have only one airline in Baltics and this would be airBaltic. All Estonian Air (OV) expansion plans have been scrapped while airBaltic grows like crazy. Even OV-s timetable lists flights starting both, from TLL and RIX, although OV has no flights starting from RIX...
 
A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 22):
No not really. You mean to tell me these birds look nothing like an airbus 320 series?

They may look like those, but this is NOT, absolutely NOT relevant.

You design a modern aircraft with wing mounted engines, how should it look ? It can't be very different from the A320 "look" you know.

How did you expect it to look ??? Like an Avro with tail mounted engines or what ???


I'm sorry, but this aircraft was designed by the Russians, if you like it or not.

Quoting L1329II (Reply 22):
What about the Buran? No, that looks nothing like a US space shuttle.

Is this ironic ? If not, I let you know that in some ways the buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Joost
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
The $20 million price tag is a bargain compared to the list price of the other regional jets SAS is considering.

Is it such a bargain? A 737-800 has a list price of $60M and is way larger. There are many rumours about the huge discounts launch airlines and mass-orderers receive; it's rumoured Ryanair payed around $30M for each 737-800. In that perspective, for a launch customer, $20M for a RJ is not too strange it all, is it?
 
RedChili
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 13):
If you've been to Russia you will discover that everything is extremely cheap there in comparison to prices in Western Europe.

Everything? Have you ever tried to get a hotel room in Moscow or Petersburg? Or how about renting an apartment in Moscow? Or how about getting some domestic flight tickets? Or how about buying baby clothes?

Quoting L1329II (Reply 22):
What about the Buran? No, that looks nothing like a US space shuttle.

The Russians actually made preliminary space shuttle studies back in the end of the 1960s/beginning of the 1970s (can't remember exactly) where the Buran-style design was proposed.
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
OV735
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 12):
Come on now... is it just me or do these airplanes look almost exactly like the A320 line up?

I must say I noticed the similarity too, and I cannot understand how some can miss it. Like the A320, the RRJ also has two wings and two engines. How dare they?!  Wow!  duck 

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21):
What aircraft types will be replaced by the Sukhoi RRJ? I wonder especially in the case of Spanair.

Might be that 'replacement' is not the best word here. AFAIK, Estonian, for example, has long had the problem that the 737s are too big for some routes and a smaller jet would be a good addition - the same probably goes for airBaltic. I'm not entirely sure about Spanair, but I'm quite sure they have at least some routes that would be better off with smaller aircraft/more frequencies (correct me if I'm wrong - this is based only on my opinion).

Cheers,
OV735
 
RIX
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Treg (Reply 7):
Russian aircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-based carrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China.

- exactly. Right before this, I'd expect all the taxi cabs in Riga to be "Volga" cars again, while right after this the main street in Riga will be renamed to Lenin Street. As Latvian state is owner of 52.6% AirBaltic shares, I don't see it happening in any other order.

Quoting A342 (Reply 25):
buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems...

- with all respect to great Soviet achievements in air and space (totally unknown to some "enthusiasts" here, including this thread), Buran is same "more advanced" than Shuttle as Tu144 is "superior" to Concorde (which, again, is surprising news to some [other] enthusiasts here, including this thread). We'll discuss it when Buran completes 100+ missions. I mean, right after Tu144 carries 3.5 million passengers.

[Edited 2006-05-03 23:51:09]
 
CRJ900
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 12):
Come on now... is it just me or do these airplanes look almost exactly like the A320 line up?

So does the Embraer E190, it looks like an A320 going through puberty...

Didn't Bombardier take the CRJ900 on a promo tour to Stockholm in 2002 when the aircraft also visited FRA and LH? Now that LH has officially ordered the CRJ900 and SAS becoming more like a LH Regional carrier, perhaps there is an order lurking in the woods for the CRJ900?  Wink The Q400 are fairly new, why would they replace them? If anything, they should order more of them.

I think the RRJ looks nice and might have a healthy future.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
L1329II
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 11:37 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 30):
I think the RRJ looks nice and might have a healthy future.

I couldnt agree more! I apologize for the way my previous thread sounded. I was trying to be sarcastic and I came across as an attack. No offense intended!
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
scoliodon
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 2:17 pm

The RRJ looks good.
Looks more like a stumpy E-170..  goodvibes 
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CRJ900
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting L1329II (Reply 31):
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 30):
I think the RRJ looks nice and might have a healthy future.

I couldnt agree more! I apologize for the way my previous thread sounded. I was trying to be sarcastic and I came across as an attack. No offense intended!

I don't think anyone here has been offended, it is true that the E-jets and the RRJ look like the A320 family because they kind of are the same... single-aisle aircraft with underwing engines. Efficient airliners for sure, but boring to look at... give me a 727 or a VC10 or a DC9 any day  Wink
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
acidradio
Crew
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 5:51 pm

OK, given that "western" RJ's are produced in countries that will sell them at "welfare-state" prices, $20mil is almost a ripoff. I've heard from pilots who have actually had the pleasure of declaring a newly-purchased CRJ200 to US Customs that the machine was valued around USD$19mil. Keep in mind that both the Canadian and Brazilian govts. have this habit of making really good financing deals to airlines willing to buy their job-program^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H jets , and I'm sure they wheel and deal. If Sukhoi thinks that they are going to sell a Russian made jet (not to badmouth Russian made jets...) to the western world for, well, western prices, at least at first, they are mistaken.

But, I am excited to see how well Sukhoi does with the RRJ. It looks like a neat aircraft. We all know that they know how to build an airplane, but can they build a western-style RJ?

Only stupid question - will they produce a cockpit in English, like the rest of the western aircraft? It seems that Russia is the only country that makes aircraft that are not in English.
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TheSonntag
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 6:12 pm

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 34):
Only stupid question - will they produce a cockpit in English, like the rest of the western aircraft? It seems that Russia is the only country that makes aircraft that are not in English.

I would not be surprised to see 2 cockpit types for the RRJ... One for the domestic market, and one for international customers. If the RRJ gets a glass cockpit, it would certainly not be so problematic to implement a Russian and an English version of the avionics, and the panels could be available in 2 languages, as well...

For example, we have an AEG washing machine... The Panel is only a sheet made of plastics, it is available in all languages. Changing that does not take long... While that might be somwehat more complicated for a plane, I would not be surprised to see that. Also, I am very sure it will be made in a Russian version: Even the ISS has russian labelled panels inside the Russian modules...
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Thu May 04, 2006 9:31 pm

I think if the RRJ is to be compared to any aircraft the aborted F-728 project would be more apt. The are both wide (five-abreast) families of regional jets.



I hope the RRJ family grows. 110 and 125 seat stretches would be ideal for the fuselage width of the family. I imagine new engines would be necessary as would a new wing.
 
A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 28):
- with all respect to great Soviet achievements in air and space (totally unknown to some "enthusiasts" here, including this thread), Buran is same "more advanced" than Shuttle as Tu144 is "superior" to Concorde (which, again, is surprising news to some [other] enthusiasts here, including this thread). We'll discuss it when Buran completes 100+ missions. I mean, right after Tu144 carries 3.5 million passengers.

Yes, the Buran has only made one flight, but it has done this automatically. Has any US spacecraft intended for manned missions ever flown automatically ? Add to this, the Buran has an ILS system, while the Space Shuttle has to divert to Edwards AFB in case of bad weather in Florida.

And in many ways the Russian technology is more robust and simpler than the US counterparts: Russian rockets don't explode on takeoff if the outside temperature was a bit too cold before, but rather can take off in snow blizzards.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 26):
Everything? Have you ever tried to get a hotel room in Moscow or Petersburg? Or how about renting an apartment in Moscow? Or how about getting some domestic flight tickets? Or how about buying baby clothes?

I stayed in hotels in Moscow and St. Petersburg in October. Extremely cheap indeed, and very very good! So on that one, you're wrong. Renting and apartment, domestic flight tickets, and god forbid, baby clothes - I have yet to experience.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 32):
give me a 727 or a VC10

Hear, hear!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
RedChili
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 37):
I stayed in hotels in Moscow and St. Petersburg in October. Extremely cheap indeed, and very very good!

"Moscow has replaced Paris as the most expensive city for corporate hotel rates, a survey for travel management company BTI UK shows... The Russian capital now commands an average rate for business travellers of over £170 per room." Quote from
http://www.businesstraveller.com/def...4&Country=&SM=ALL&SearchStr=moscow

"The slide in the number of foreign tourists visiting Russia... Last year's fall of around 17 percent... tour operators struggle with spiraling prices, a lack of hotel space and the country's intractable image problem." Quote from http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2006/03/03/041.html

"According to Ernst & Young, in April Moscow's four- and five-star hotels recorded their highest-ever average room rate of $253." Quote from
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2005/05/25/045.html
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 38):
corporate hotel rates

Different to leisure...

Quoting RedChili (Reply 38):
intractable image problem

I'd bet it's more than this than anything, especially with Americans!

Quoting RedChili (Reply 38):
highest-ever average room rate of $253."

$253 per night isn't that bad at all for 4 or 5 star!!!!!

Nice work on the research though, well done  Smile Nice to see someone back up their facts with references!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
hentzz
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting Treg (Reply 6):
Russianrnaircraft for Estonian Air and Air Baltic. It is something like US-basedrncarrier would buy aircrafts made in Iran or China.
well said
It would be a real boost to the Russian aircraft industries, but i don't think that they would get too warm welcome in the Baltics.

[Edited 2006-05-04 21:55:59]
 
L1329II
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
Russian rockets don't explode on takeoff

No... they just explode on the launch pad!  laughing 

Sorry I just couldnt resist!
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting L1329II (Reply 41):
No... they just explode on the launch pad!

Good one L1329 !  bigthumbsup 
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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solnabo
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 5:34 am

Like the look of RRJ, even thou it looks like a mix of A and B

If SK goes for the RRJ then 736 will be sold or leased I guess, even the 321 goes the same way...

Way to many diffrent short haulers in SKs fleet IMO.

Micke//SWE Big grin
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
RIX
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Fri May 05, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
the Buran has only made one flight, but it has done this automatically... the Buran has an ILS system

- this has nothing to do with the spacecraft performance itself, nor does it tell anything about Shuttle "tons of problems" that Buran is free of, as your earlier post stated. Having barely produced a single test flight, Buran is simply "not qualified" to be compared to an already space exploration legend that has been in service for quarter century. Yes, there were accidents, and there were tragedies - but how can you be confident that nothing like this would have happened to Buran, be it a true workhorse, not an "exhibition example"?

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
Has any US spacecraft intended for manned missions ever flown automatically ?

- what for? Or do you seriously believe, US are not technically able to do it?

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
in many ways the Russian technology is more robust and simpler than the US counterparts: Russian rockets don't explode on takeoff if the outside temperature was a bit too cold before

- don't see "many ways" in this quote, just one example, irrelevant to what the discussion started with. Plus, I hope, you are not so silly to believe that the Soviets didn't have their amount of "rockets exploding on take-off". Or killing dozens of people around even before launch.

Cheers!
 
RedChili
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Sat May 06, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 36):
Has any US spacecraft intended for manned missions ever flown automatically ?

NASA flew both the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo spacecraft in automatic mode before they put astronauts in them. E.g. in the Gemini program, the first manned flight in the Gemini program was the GT-3 (Gemini-Titan 3).

However, Russian and American thinking is quite different when it comes to the question of automatic guidance. The Russian philosophy dictates that as many things as possible should be done automatically. That's why they were able to put Valentina Tereshkova as the first woman into space; she wasn't even qualified to pilot a plane, much less a spacecraft. She was a parachutist.

The American philosophy is more of a test pilot thing, that the astronauts are there to test how the machine works and report their findings to the engineers. That's why the Apollo 11 was able to land in Mare Tranquilitatis. If the computer had been in charge of that landing, Michael Collins would've been alone in the Command Module on the way home.
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A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Sat May 06, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 44):
but how can you be confident that nothing like this would have happened to Buran

Please tell me where I said this ?

Quoting RIX (Reply 44):
what for?

It is very useful to test a manned spacecraft unmanned on the first flights. IIRC, if the Chinese hadn't done this, they'd have a dead man now.

Quoting RIX (Reply 44):
Plus, I hope, you are not so silly to believe that the Soviets didn't have their amount of "rockets exploding on take-off". Or killing dozens of people around even before launch.

Sure they had, but the stress is on HAD. Once something works well in Russian space technology, it's hardly changed over decades. Next year the Sojuz will have it's 50th birthday and it's still a reliable workhorse.

Look at how the ISS at the moment is totally dependent on the Russians.



But this get's waaaaay too off-topic...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
RIX
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Sat May 06, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
Please tell me where I said this ?

- your "buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems..." assumes Buran wouldn't have these problems, be it in service of the same scale as Shuttle. If the assumption is wrong, then you agree that Buran has similar "ton of problems" too, which would be exposed in routine flights.

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
It is very useful to test a manned spacecraft unmanned on the first flights. IIRC, if the Chinese hadn't done this, they'd have a dead man now.

- that's OK, I'm not asking what for would they ever do it; I mean, they did not do it with Shuttle not because they couldn't but because they did not need it.

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
Once something works well in Russian space technology, it's hardly changed over decades. Next year the Sojuz will have it's 50th birthday and it's still a reliable workhorse.

Look at how the ISS at the moment is totally dependent on the Russians.

- I don't think, "hardly changed over decades" is a good thing by itself. In case of Soyuz - great, but Apollo was not that bad either, was it? That is, had Americans the same approach, "once it works, leave is as is", many things done in space would be impossible - including, of course, ISS! It's easy to rely on Soyuz after the station is [almost] built, but it would not be there without "the heavy lifter". Even now, relying only on Soyuz (or be it Apollo, doesn't matter) is a problem for the station - just remember how important the last Discovery mission was. Again, Soyuz can't be compared to Shuttle - they are in way different categories. It would be a sheer disaster for Soviets/Russians if even after decades Soyuz would be still unproven and unreliable - which, unfortunately, Shuttle somewhat is. But only Buran flying with same reliability as Soyuz could be a great example of Russian "simple and robust" machine against Shuttle - but not Soyuz! And, of course, Buran is not there not because Russians decided, "we'd better rely on Soyuz". But because Soviet space exploration program collapsed. By the other hand, not keeping/developing Apollo - to me, the most glorious spacecraft in history, even if we see other ones reaching the Moon with people onboard - was a big mistake. You shouldn't stick to something "proven and reliable" only (the stone axe was a good one... somehow, we moved ahead), but don't drop it if it still works (somehow, we still use axes!).

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
they had, but the stress is on HAD

- nope, they weren't immune either - happily, with 0 fatalities since Summer, 1971...

Quoting RedChili (Reply 45):
Valentina Tereshkova... wasn't even qualified to pilot a plane, much less a spacecraft.

- are you sure? She definitely was trained in a group of cosmonauts; it's not like she put aside parachute and took her place in "Vostok6" cabin.
 
RedChili
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Sat May 06, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 46):
Next year the Sojuz will have it's 50th birthday

I'm sure you mean 40th birthday. The first Vostok launch was on 23 April 1967.

Quoting RIX (Reply 47):
are you sure? She definitely was trained in a group of cosmonauts;

Quote from "Men from Earth" by Buzz Aldrin: "Tereshkova was not a pilot or even an engineer. She was a factory worker from Yaroslavl who had joined a sky-diving club at her planet and had soon become quite good in this exciting sport. She was among several women "cosmonauts" who had been hastily selected and put through intensive flight training." If this account is true, then Tereshkova was basically a passenger in her spacecraft.
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A342
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RE: SAS Studies RRJ ...but Also Emb190 And CRJ900

Sun May 07, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 47):
- your "buran is more advanced compared to the Shuttle which has tons of problems..." assumes Buran wouldn't have these problems, be it in service of the same scale as Shuttle. If the assumption is wrong, then you agree that Buran has similar "ton of problems" too, which would be exposed in routine flights.

No, I said this from a technological standpoint. And I do not agree that the Buran has similar tons of problems, too, becuase we don't know.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 48):
I'm sure you mean 40th birthday. The first Vostok launch was on 23 April 1967.

Well I actually meant the R-7 rocket which is often called Soyuz, too.

Quoting RIX (Reply 47):
I don't think, "hardly changed over decades" is a good thing by itself. In case of Soyuz - great

I should have added: For a given mission profile it can be great.
Exceptions confirm the rule.

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