jumbojet
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63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 12:24 am

only 63% of pilots approved of the deal, while at the same time many union leaders had urged pilots to hold out for better contract


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/northwest...;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 1:07 am

Is 63% enough to ratify?

If so, these are the 63% who realise what's at stake: JOBS.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 1:25 am

It is quite obvious the poison is still there between Steenland and the pilots as well as all other rank-n-file employees at NW:

Quote:
MINNEAPOLIS - Northwest Airlines Corp. pilots approved a package of deep pay cuts and other concessions on Wednesday that the bankrupt carrier said it needs to reorganize.

About 63 percent of Northwest's 4,800 pilots voted to approve the pact. Some union leaders had publicly called on pilots to reject the contract and hold out for a better deal.

The Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association said the new contract will not take effect until other unions ratify their own contracts.

Baggage handlers voted down Northwest's wage-cut proposal, and a trial is set to begin in bankruptcy court May 15 to determine whether Northwest can throw out that contract and impose its own terms. Flight attendants will be voting through June 6 on their own wage-cut proposal.

--Associated Press
I think DL can at least see the light at the end of the tunnel, but at NW I still think they're in for a long hot summer of potential adversity.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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litz
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 2):
I think DL can at least see the light at the end of the tunnel, but at NW I still think they're in for a long hot summer of potential adversity.

This just goes to show how lucky DL is they only have the one union to deal with.

Now, with that said, the better question is --- now that NW's pilots have approved their contract, albeit not exactly overwhelmingly, what does this mean for the DL contract voting?

A high-percentage approval would have put big pressure on the DL pilots to follow ... this, however, is more like luke-warm ... what do y'all think?

Also, on a DL vs NW front ... once DL's pilots (hopefully) approve their contract, DL is done - they are free and clear to head towards that BK emergence with nothing to stop them, labor-wise.

NW still has these other groups to deal with; they could be tied up for months to come sorting out labor issues. How much do you think that'll hurt them as they also strive to emerge from BK ?

- litz
 
VC10DC10
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 1:53 am

Sorry to have to ask this question, but why is 63% not "overwhelming"? In another sort of vote (an election, for instance) 63% would be tremendous. Just curious.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 3):
This just goes to show how lucky DL is they only have the one union to deal with.

Now, with that said, the better question is --- now that NW's pilots have approved their contract, albeit not exactly overwhelmingly, what does this mean for the DL contract voting?

A high-percentage approval would have put big pressure on the DL pilots to follow ... this, however, is more like luke-warm ... what do y'all think?

Also, on a DL vs NW front ... once DL's pilots (hopefully) approve their contract, DL is done - they are free and clear to head towards that BK emergence with nothing to stop them, labor-wise.

NW still has these other groups to deal with; they could be tied up for months to come sorting out labor issues. How much do you think that'll hurt them as they also strive to emerge from BK ?

I think the DL pilots will come out and vote in favor of the deal they had their leaders agree to by a better margin than 63% since DL management didn't get the $300+ million they were additionally seeking, also keep in mind the DL pilots will have a stake in the post-BK Delta. One of the bigger headaches for DL in pilot negotiations I'm certain was the issue of future airframes and where they would fit in. In their BK negotiations with their pilots a couple of years ago, AC failed to take this into account, and when the post-BK environment looked favorable, but replacement of an aging fleet of 767s was needed, AC ran into problems with the pilots over their decision to phase out their larger AirBus fleets (A340/A330) and replace them and the 767s with 777s and new 787s. DL will also need to look at new fleet acquisitions sooner than later after BK emergence and looks to be a suitor for more 777s and some 787s as well as some EMB-190/195s, phasing out their MD-88s and MD-90's as well as what remains of their 737-200s and older 767-300s (non-ER). Also on the network connection carrier front, the reorganization of ComAir as well as newer EMB-170/175s for SkyWest/ASA and Chitaqua as well as Shuttle America and the rejection of many more CRJ-200 leases still are ahead.
NW is still a strong candidate in my opinion to liquidate. Being the most unionized US flag carrier has really made this a cumbersome process for them. Many have said that the money they make off their Asia routes will carry them, but their domestic routes long dominated by antiquated aging DC-9 frames is what makes them bleed like a sive. While the Asia routes are their plumb, the way management has pushed new labor deals onto the rank-n-file has left such an atmosphere of poison, that this whole thing can fall apart for them very quickly.
At best, I think NW will be in BK longer than UA was (3.5 years), and still has a very strong likelihood of turning into an outright liquidation if labor troubles don't get worked out completely before this summer or fall.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
TL8490
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 2:37 am

Does anyone else think it is just a matter of time before DL and NW merge into one airline. It just seems that all of the writing is on the wall.....

Delta seems to be ahead of the process...and since they are the least unionized and look to be ahead in the process it could be DL acquiring NW and thus looking at getting rid of all of the unions but the pilots....The could then close CVG, close MSP or SLC, make call connection work based on lowest cost and now own any of the connection carriers, and have a huge international presence....

I just read on here somewhere that NW was looking at 777's which would also complement Delta's fleet....and they are both looking at many other similar business relationships...i.e. all flight attendants at both airlines now must fly 75 hours a month....

Anybody else see this process unfolding???
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 6):
Does anyone else think it is just a matter of time before DL and NW merge into one airline. It just seems that all of the writing is on the wall.....
Delta seems to be ahead of the process...and since they are the least unionized and look to be ahead in the process it could be DL acquiring NW and thus looking at getting rid of all of the unions but the pilots....The could then close CVG, close MSP or SLC, make call connection work based on lowest cost and now own any of the connection carriers, and have a huge international presence....
I just read on here somewhere that NW was looking at 777's which would also complement Delta's fleet....and they are both looking at many other similar business relationships...i.e. all flight attendants at both airlines now must fly 75 hours a month....
Anybody else see this process unfolding???

Many write off such a merger due to the lack of commonality in their respective fleets as well as the respective carriers union culture(s). But with the creation of "Newco" and the fact NW is looking at the 777 and perhaps dumping their A330s tells me they are looking at a long term relationship with DL or CO.
As for hubs if such would happen the merged company would likely hang onto DTW and MSP but MEM and CVG would likely be reduced to focus cities at best while ATL would be the largest hub with JFK on the east coast and LAX and PDX on the west coasts handling the Asia flights. SLC is far enough out in the west and a reasonably fast growing market that it would more than likely remain a key hub for a merged DL/NW.
A merged DL/NW could focus on the most profitable high volume mainline domestic flights and have a good relationship with network carriers like the "Newco" and SkyWest/ASA as well as what will likely remain of ComAir (probably could be absorbed by "Newco"). The DL/NW will then be the largest most profitable mainline carrier in the world, the biggest overall if AA realizes the futility of hanging onto Eagle and spins it off.

[Edited 2006-05-03 19:51:27]

[Edited 2006-05-03 19:56:45]
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Delta787
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 2:59 am

With the NW pilots approving their deal, this likely paves the way towards DL pilots doing the same.

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 6):
Does anyone else think it is just a matter of time before DL and NW merge into one airline. It just seems that all of the writing is on the wall.....

Its been talked about for awhile now. With NW large Asian operation and DL large Atlantic, their route networks complement each other quite nicely. The main issue is that their fleet types are very different.
Fly Delta!
 
VC10DC10
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 4:21 am

Another consideration, I would imagine, is that NW's unions might not like becoming just a small cog in the wheels of a much larger airline (assuming NW/DL here for purposes of discussion). I've never heard of part of a company being unionized (e.g., 35% of the flight attendants, 40% of baggage handlers, etc.). Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine that NW's unions would try to make DL a unionized company. It would be hard for DL to make NW nonunionized, too, if I understand the rules, unless they fired them all and rehired them the next day. Something else besides equipment to think about.
 
VC10DC10
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting TL8490 (Reply 6):
I just read on here somewhere that NW was looking at 777's which would also complement Delta's fleet

That's pure speculation coming from a questionable source (a blog!? get real).

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
the fact NW is looking at the 777 and perhaps dumping their A330s tells me they are looking at a long term relationship with DL or CO.

Um, speculation again.
 
zvezda
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 4):
why is 63% not "overwhelming"? In another sort of vote (an election, for instance) 63% would be tremendous.

I would say 63% is overwhelming on a controversial issue. No American President has ever received 63% of the popular vote -- not even Lincoln, who suspended secrecy of the ballot and threws 10s of thousands of voters in jail for voting for Democrats.
 
VC10DC10
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):

I would say 63% is overwhelming on a controversial issue. No American President has ever received 63% of the popular vote -- not even Lincoln, who suspended secrecy of the ballot and threws 10s of thousands of voters in jail for voting for Democrats.

Exactly, Zvezda. My point entirely. Why isn't NW's 63% overwhelming? It's a pretty controversial issue, after all.
 
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litz
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 1:40 pm

I can't see DL and NW ever merging, specifically because of the labor issue.

I also really don't see how NWA is going to compete in a 70+ bbl environment w/the high union labor costs ... Maybe they'll surprise me, dunno.

That being said - the routes complement each other nicely. Try this scenario :

DL emerges from BK. As part of their emergence they retire a large chunk of their debt. They continue the international expansion (remember, DL has a few more 777's on order, scheduled for delivery right after this mythical emergence date). Leaner, and much more profitable they operate for 2-3 years building capital.

NW attempts to emerge from BK or actually does manage, but much much slower than DL (maybe even 1-2 years later). They fail to achieve the same lean-ness and profitability.

Eventually, they end up at debt's end and start either selling off pieces, or just plain liquidate. DL picks up every piece of long range Boeing equipment they can along with the asia routes. The Airbii and DC9s head to Mohave.

Fanciful, maybe. There would be a helluva lotta "ifs" that would have to happen. *BUT* ... it would achieve two things : it gives DL the worldwide route system it needs to be a truly fullscale, globe-wide player; and it creates the necessary reduction in US domestic capacity that the industry really needs to properly recover.

Maybe this belongs in a piece of fiction at the bookstore, dunno. Who knows; we'll all just have to wait and see what happens.

- litz
 
VC10DC10
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
DL emerges from BK. As part of their emergence they retire a large chunk of their debt.

Um, MAJOR assumption.  expressionless  Delta has much farther to go than NWA in paying off debt. According to their 2005 annual reports, Delta currently has a shareholders' deficit of $9,895,000,000, while Northwest has a shareholders' deficit of $5,628,000,000. Yes, those numbers are correct.
Delta: in the hole for $9.9 billion
NWA: in the hole for $5.6 billion

Frankly, I'm glad I'm not in either position. But Delta seems to be in worse shape financially than Northwest.
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
I also really don't see how NWA is going to compete in a 70+ bbl environment w/the high union labor costs ... Maybe they'll surprise me, dunno.

High Labor Cost? Am I reading this wrong or what? An NWA flight attendant even on the interim paycut makes less than an AirTran flight attendant. Wake up folks and get the picture. NWA is going to be one hell of a competitor. With this latest pilot pay cut they are at about 39% total give or take. Where do you guys get this NWA has high labor costs stuff? Or are you the ones that does these posts as of late, 10 years ago I flew across the Atlantic and the plane was empty, will airline XYZ make it?

Safe Flying  

[Edited 2006-05-04 12:05:23]
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PhilSquares
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 7:06 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 13):
NW attempts to emerge from BK or actually does manage, but much much slower than DL (maybe even 1-2 years later). They fail to achieve the same lean-ness and profitability.

Eventually, they end up at debt's end and start either selling off pieces, or just plain liquidate. DL picks up every piece of long range Boeing equipment they can along with the asia routes. The Airbii and DC9s head to Mohave.

Fanciful, maybe. There would be a helluva lotta "ifs" that would have to happen. *BUT* ... it would achieve two things : it gives DL the worldwide route system it needs to be a truly fullscale, globe-wide player; and it creates the necessary reduction in US domestic capacity that the industry really needs to properly recover.

Maybe this belongs in a piece of fiction at the bookstore, dunno. Who knows; we'll all just have to wait and see what happens.

I don't know what you've been reading, but your facts and suppositions are a little off.

If both carriers stick to their timelines, NW will emerge first, at a much lower CASM than DL. NW's wage structure is much lower than DL's.

With the pilot's ratification, I think you'll see the other labor groups ratify their agreements. The IAM's 1113C filing will be successful, if no prior agreement is reached.

Personally, I think NW is in much better shape than DL can ever hope to be in.
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bucky707
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11):
I would say 63% is overwhelming on a controversial issue.

I can't remember seeing a TA pass much more than 60-40 or maybe 65-35 during my entire time in the airlines. Even Delta's contract in 2001 only passed about 70-30. At any airline you have about 20% who will always vote no, 20% who will always vote yes, so really the other 60% are the ones really making a decision.

I predict the vote at Delta will be about 60-40 in favor.
 
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RE: 63% Of NW Pilots Approve Pay Cuts

Thu May 04, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting FlyGuyClt (Reply 15):
Where do you guys get this NWA has high labor costs stuff? Or are you the ones that does these posts as of late, 10 years ago I flew across the Atlantic and the plane was empty, will airline XYZ make it?

FlyGuyClt, Thank You!!!!

All this speculation is rediculous, there are so many changes, cost cutting, lease rejections, and contract negotiations going on at BOTH DL and NW right now while they are in Ch. 11, you really can't make these statements and predictions either way. Neither airline will be the same as they once were. Using their cost structure, load factor, etc. from 2002 is not a true measure of where they are now and where they will be in a year or two or ten. Both DL & NW are using this to get their house in order, and unfortunetely it means trashing their payscales and benefits. However, hopefully in the end they can compete with everyone else. Plus, there are a lot more complex issues than just ordering new aircraft.