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JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Thu May 04, 2006 4:30 pm

Turnaround plan will see 12 deliveries deferred and up to five twinjets removed from fleet after first quarter loss

JetBlue Airways is deferring 12 Airbus A320s by up to four years and will sell up to five of its existing A320s as it slashes capacity growth in a bid to stem losses

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+to+offset+mounting+fuel+cost.html
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Thu May 04, 2006 4:46 pm

Well hopefully this will help put them back in the black.
They kind of were reminding me of America West in the Eighties...
too much growth too fast.
Remember AWA was kind of novel (like jetBlue is in its own way) when
they appeared in the skies: free movies, free alcohol.
Hopefully with this move, jetBlue won't follow AWA's route and end up
in BK protection.
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 12:45 am

The title for this tread is actually quite misleading. JetBlue is actually still growing.

Let’s actually put some facts on the table, shall we?

JetBlue will be deferring some aircraft; however we are not reducing our fleet. We have a total of 12 aircraft being deferred over a period of three years. So simple math would tell us that 12 aircraft over three years would be 4 aircraft deferred each year. Four aircraft in 2007, 4 in 2008 and another 4 in 2009. We are normally scheduled to receive about +10-15 Airbus Aircraft each year. These aircraft are not being deferred indefinitely but rather until 2011-2012. On top of this we are continuing to receive the remaining 10 aircraft on order this year from Airbus. This is in addition to the aircraft that we are continuing to receive from Embraer. We will continue to receive E190s and Airbus over the next few years, just a fewer number of Airbus Aircraft.

Now, we are looking for buyers of two Airbus aircraft possibly up to 5. Now since we are still receiving the rest of our order from Airbus and Embraer this year (lets say 10 airbus aircraft) and we are removing 2-5 aircraft to sell, that would leave us with an 8 to 5 new aircraft to add to the fleet plus however many E190s we add.

So in closing we are actually still growing the fleet albeit just not as fast, we are not shrinking or reducing the fleet but rather growing a a much slower and steadier pace.

I’m not much for cool aid, but JetBlue is here to stay for sometime folks, it’s not the end as some would seem to think or like to post. All JetBlue is doing is getting smarter and adjusting to match the industry we’re in. More power to them.
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 2):
Now, we are looking for buyers of two Airbus aircraft possibly up to 5. Now since we are still receiving the rest of our order from Airbus and Embraer this year (lets say 10 airbus aircraft) and we are removing 2-5 aircraft to sell, that would leave us with an 8 to 5 new aircraft to add to the fleet plus however many E190s we add.

But why doesn't B6 keep its A320s and deferr more new aircraft ? I think Airbus might like this as the would get more early delivery slots for other customers.
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 3):
But why doesn't B6 keep its A320s and deferr more new aircraft ? I think Airbus might like this as the would get more early delivery slots for other customers.

We will sell the older birds first to avoid the expense of the heavy checks. Remember, even our oldest A320's are technically still pretty "new".
 
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 2:42 am

Hey,

Hi AkjetBlue, thanks for clearing things up.

Most airlines when they get into trouble (money wise) start to cut capacity, this with the intention of cutting expenses. This might seem a logical step, but when you cut capacity you also cut income, so you still have the same debt but less income to pay for it. That`s how I see it.

Instead of cutting capacity, they should promote more, get more customers and interest in them...that way you have more income, pay debts and grow!!! not shrink.

I like Jetblue because they use a different philosophy than the rest of the airlines, I would hate to see it make the same mistake as other have made and that are long gone.

I wish them all the best!

Just my 2 cents.

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 2:49 am

Glad they are taking these steps now. I'm sure they will be here for a long time to come....
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 3:57 am

They selling those A320's to Virgin America or UA?

Glad they are doing what is necessary to stay competitive.

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 2):
The title for this tread is actually quite misleading. JetBlue is actually still growing.

Then you better tell Flight International that
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 4:44 am

Raise the fares to a level less ridiculous and start charging $5.00 a head for the acclaimed LIVE TV service. Makes sense, right?  Wink
 
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 6:01 am

Wait, that sounds like my hometown airline at EWR? Just finished EWR-HNL-EWR and they continue to perform  Wink
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 2):
JetBlue is actually still growing.

Still pretty quick. 18 E190's a year! (B6 already announced no change in E190 delivery rate.)

If a net of 25 aircraft a year (assuming 5 a year sold off) is a fleet reduction... bring it on!  box 

Please take the time to read B6's quarterly results. At the middle of the page you'll see the A320 delivery schedule:
http://investor.jetblue.com/ireye/ir...cript=410&layout=-6&item_id=846920

Let's also not forget that B6 has expanded their options for A320's! Its possible if the market turns that only half of the deferals will occur.  spin 

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 2):
I’m not much for cool aid, but JetBlue is here to stay for sometime folks, it’s not the end as some would seem to think or like to post. All JetBlue is doing is getting smarter and adjusting to match the industry we’re in. More power to them.

 checkmark 
They're working on yeild management. They hired that guy from US.
They're working on hubbing more as a way to improve yeild.
They're moving A320's from transcons to other routes.
They're working on getting the on time performance back up to snuff. (More gates, training to quicken aircraft turn times, learning out the E190's and thus having fewer delays with that airframe, etc.)
And all of the *rumors* are that more small cities will be added. After looking at the yeild currently garnered by DL and US in their new markets... I don't see how they couldn't make a profit in the Carolinas.  Wink


What I noticed on my last B6 flight is how helpfull and cheerfull the Jetblue staff could be. The pilot even got on the PA and appologized for not greeting everyone as he was stuck in the cockpit working trying to get us out on time!  bigthumbsup  And yet, the press is warning how surly airline staff is getting...  scratchchin  Makes me wonder... On a pair of full flights, B6 staff did well!  bigthumbsup 

Quote:
"It seems the patience of the flight crews has been depleted."

http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2006-05-03-airloads-usat_x.htm
(Sorry for the quick link. But I've seen other articles on industry analysts complaining that the airline staff is getting surly again after an improvement last year.)

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 4):
We will sell the older birds first to avoid the expense of the heavy checks. Remember, even our oldest A320's are technically still pretty "new".

 checkmark 

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):

Then you better tell Flight International that

Do we need another discussion on how bad the press can be?  Wink

B6 will be around for a bit. Everyone is commenting on how much their fares *seem* to have gone up. And yet their Load factor went down year on year what, 2%? That implies improved yeild.

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Makes me wonder... On a pair of full flights, B6 staff did well!

I would say 95% do our very best to make some kind of difference. Of course there will always be bad apples, even at JetBlue. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip!
 
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 7:52 am

It is amazing the amount of excuses the Jet Blue fans can come up with when the facts are printed in the press!
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
It is amazing the amount of excuses the Jet Blue fans can come up with when the facts are printed in the press!

No excuses! 12 deferred deliveries and selling up to 5, with a minimum of 2, is not a big deal and is actually helpful in raising and preserving cash.

It's false that JetBlue is reducing its fleet. Instead, it will not grow as much, but by a very little percentage that will not have too much of a negative impact on utilization rates.

Nevertheless, I'm looking at this as a good thing as oil at $70/bbl isn't helping anyone...

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting AkjetBlue (Reply 2):
The title for this tread is actually quite misleading

....and this is actually old news. This was released two weeks ago.
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
It is amazing the amount of excuses the Jet Blue fans can come up with when the facts are printed in the press!

Do expand... a statement like that could be taken as argumentative.

But lets face it, I don't understand the hostility I see in these forums toward B6. I don't offer excuses... despite the fact I could be labeled a Jetblue fan, I have again and again pointed out in these forums where they need to improve.  wideeyed  Does that mean I dislike them? No. Heck, even Mr. Neeleman will point out where he or his senior staff have screwed up. I'm even pointed out how with a positive operating margin I still expect B6 to lose money for the year! So people, instead of bashing, do take the high road and present facts.  spin 

But if you look into why B6 is losing money and what they're doing to fix it... it seems logical to me that they will not only survive but will thrive. I've given my reasons why their fate will improve yet again.

I always try to listen in on the Raymond James presentations that the airlines do. Gasp, I even listen to the "network carriers" (who are actually better about putting their slides online.) But hey, if you have a link for the Raymond James slides for any of the airlines presenting, please send that link to me!

But the truth is, we only like Jetblue because we get the whole can of coke.  shhh  Don't tell anyone that's B6's secret to high customer satisfaction.  Wink


Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 12):

I would say 95% do our very best to make some kind of difference. Of course there will always be bad apples, even at JetBlue. I'm glad you enjoyed your trip!

Well done. World class companies usually only hire 90% right.  Wink

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 16):
Do expand... a statement like that could be taken as argumentative

Take it easy... It was a prode at the way the press likes to spin things..
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 11:05 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 17):
Take it easy... It was a prode at the way the press likes to spin things..

Ahhh... I'm afraid the subtlety of thy humor escaped me.  Wink
But I always take it easy.  Smile
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):

Then you better tell Flight International that

Do we need another discussion on how bad the press can be?

Don't need to when Flight Imternational is a reliable soruce
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Fri May 05, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 13):
It is amazing the amount of excuses the Jet Blue fans can come up with when the facts are printed in the press!

So, you are saying the press always tells the whole and complete truth, instead of spinning the facts to get a sexy headline? Which of the "excuses" above is not factual?
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 1:28 am

This was what I posted on this topic about 10 or 12 days back ---

>>I won't sit here and predict JetBlue's demise....or even deny that it is possible for them to eke out a profit over the rest of this year.

But there is something troubling out there....and the earlier poster who talked about their +6.7 percent increase in CASM ex-fuel touched on it.

Their costs are going up. Everyone knew it would happen. I think people wanted to believe it would not be by this much.

Let's wipe out fuel and look at the CASM of JetBlue and Southwest. From Q1 2005 to Q1 2006 JetBlue's CASM went from 5.06 to 5.40 cents.

Southwest's, on the other hand, went from 6.44 cents to 6.43 cents.

Sounds like JetBlue's advantage may have shrunk somewhat, but they still have the upper hand if Southwest was paying at-the-pump prices for fuel.

It may sound that way, but that's not the real deal.

JetBlue runs a lot of transcons and NE-FL stuff that allows the plane to stay in the air a reasonably long time. Their average stage length is 1246 miles.

Southwest still runs a lot of Corpus Christi to Houstons and Phoenix to Las Vegas. Average stage length is less than half of JetBlue's --- 617 miles.

It is an accepted fact that as your average stage length increases, your CASM will decrease. And vice versa.

The fact that WN has achieved a CASM only a penny higher than JetBlue's.....with an average stage length less than half...ought to scare the heck out of JetBlue's management.

Especially if they think one of the places they can waltz in to is Islip.

If JetBlue decides to take Southwest on....and that's a big if...I don't think they are that stupid.....we are talking scorched Earth.

JetBlue is talking about getting in to the short haul biz to raise their yields. That's great. Short hauls will do that. Southwest had a yield of 12.68 cents versus JetBlue's 8.37 cents.

The real problem is getting in to the short haul business in a big way is going to knock JetBlue's CASM up more than a penny or so.

I would wager that, if JetBlue were to increase their short haul market penetration using E-190s by enough to reduce their average stage length to Southwest levels---617 miles---that you would see JetBlue's CASM ex fuel up above 7.5 cents....maybe as high as 8 cents.

Which puts them as a decided disadvantage to Southwest in anything head-to-head.

It's strange to see an airline with this problem with such a junior workforce. Southwest's folks are all unionized....they know what labor is going to cost them with contracts and all.....and none of their employees have been forced to cough up part of their paycheck as a concession.

JetBlue's folks, frankly, don't make enough to squeeze any concessions out of them. The folks who got stock a while back didn't get anything of value. The company is becoming more mature, NYC is not a low cost of living place to be domiciled.....JetBlue's pay (esp to pilots) is notoriously bad. Sooner or later, the rumblings of collective bargaining are going to begin and JetBlue may lose what labor cost advantage it has.

Because that's about the only cost advantage they do have left.

They threw away the single-fleet-type advantage. Now you've got to have pilots for multiple aircraft, so there is time lost to train pilots transitioning from on AC to the other....you have to stock parts (from foreign vendors) for two different aircraft. The fleet is aging and they're now looking at C-checks. The grand idea to sell oldere aircraft may be a plan to sell the aircraft and avoid the C-check....but you are not going to get as much for a young but high-time aircraft that has to have a C-check before the buyer can do much with it.

I've rambled a bit, and I'm sorry---it certainly isn't hopeless for JetBlue. But their management has made a bit of a mess. Blaming it all on fuel when you previously bragged that you could make money at $70/bbl just makes the whole company look foolish.<<

If I wanted to make a joke about all of this I would say that the problems threatening B6 are fatal but not serious. But the truth is the problems are not fatal, but they could become that way. And many of them are quite serious.

JetBlue's costs are going up. There is no way to spin that.

They are going to take E190s and forego some Airbuses. That's going to make a larger portion of their fleet E190s (than what was programmed...it may still be a majority Airbus fleet.)

The company admitted before they'd even received a single Embraer that they were going to drive the CASM up by a penny. With the teething problems and the lower-than-expected utilization it may be more than that.

Under any circumstance, having more Embraers and fewer Airbuses is going to move the CASM upwards.

Focusing your growth more towards sort hauls is going to enable you to get a better yield, but it is also going to drive the CASM up, and the difference will not be insignificant. I am not certain that B6 will get enough of a yield improvement to offset the CASM increase.

B6 is going to sell some of the older Airbuses so they don't have to do the C & D checks which can be costly. Hold on just a second.....does anyone think that a buyer out there is not going to factor in the cost of doing the maintenance on an airplane before plopping down several millions of dollars for an aircraft? In fact, B6 may find out that the way they were depreciating these aircraft does not reflect the price they are going to be able to command for them on the open market.

In short - JetBlue might find out that they cannot get anywhere near the price they want for their used airplanes. If that's the case, they are going to either have to keep them or take a pretty healthy chunk out of the sale price.

I hear unions are snoopoin around B6. That will continue. It may even escalate. Unions are not always antagonistic with corporate management. They are going to insist on a reasonable deal for the employees/union members. This is going to exert upward pressure on labor costs. And if the B6 employees want one bad enough, there is no way Neeleman or anyone else can serve enough blue potatio chips and kool-aid to prevent it.

By all accounts Mr Neeleman is a very smart guy. Of that I have no doubt. The history of business is littered with people who were real smart, but got to reading their press clippings and decided they were smarter than they actually were.

I think JetBlue made some serious tactical errors that can no longer be reversed. They may be survivable, but it doesn't mean they weren't mistakes.

It sounds dumb but the first rule of building a successful airline is to start making a profit before you run out of money. Neeleman & JetBlue did that. No problem.

The problem developed when they decided they were smarter than other folks who had built successful airlines.

Rather than start with short hauls and strong yields, JetBlue immediately went long haul with low low low ASM costs but accompanying rock bottom yields.

Rather than stick with the single fleet type - and I do not think its importance can be overemphasized - he bought a bunch of Brazilian airplanes that look good, have good economics on paper, but may not be built to last a jillion cycles like a Boeing 737.

Departing the single fleet type has raised costs, and now he has to raise fares, and customers may pay it but nobody really likes to pay more for anything. There will be an impact on demand.

Having maintained low labor costs by...not paying employees very much...JetBlue had pretty much guaranteed themselves a future of dealing with collective bargaining. In transportation it's almost a given, the biggest question is how long before the employees organize.

It also means that there is no way to offset any of the increased costs thru wage concessions. With labor there is an element of "you get what you pay for" to a certain extent. If your folks are already among the poorest compensated in the industry, you really can't do much in the way of going back to them for give-backs.

When the dust clears, in another couple of years or so, you will be looking at a unionized Jet Blue whose ex-fuel CASM is equal to or higher than Southwest's despite still having a longer average stage length. The Embraers and the short haul routes are going to do that.

Can that company survive? Sure, if they give the customer what they want. What customers, especially business passengers, really want is frequency, flexibility, and reliability. It will take more than blue tater chips to overcome a sorry reputation for on-time service.

JetBlue is far from being toast. They do have their work cut out for them.
 
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
JetBlue is far from being toast. They do have their work cut out for them.

Excellent post, quite interesting. Welcome to my RU list.

Now pardon me for disagreeing on one point:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
With labor there is an element of "you get what you pay for" to a certain extent.

I can't but notice B6 flight crews are very good. From what I've seen their flight crew pay is ok. Yes, new pilots are paid poorly... But whom else is hiring? Ok, yes, WN, CO, FL, F9, and others are, but only a fraction of the available pilot pool! Of those, only WN and CO offer significantly better pay than B6 for a captain (yes, B6 is lower starting...). By the time new B6 pilots are able to jump ship to another airline, they're already captains on the A320 and most likely aren't willing to take the pay cut to jump to another airline. Just my  twocents 

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
Departing the single fleet type has raised costs, and now he has to raise fares, and customers may pay it but nobody really likes to pay more for anything. There will be an impact on demand.

Excellent point. While I believe the east cost RASM has much potential, you do make a good point in that poeple don't like to pay more. Like it or not the internet has made airline ticket pricing very transparent. The cat is out of the bag... adapt.

Again, most excellent post TxAgKuwait. I might spin the results to a more "optimistic conclusion" for B6, but I always appreciate getting good facts and a well thought out perspective.

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 2:44 am

>>Now pardon me for disagreeing on one point:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
With labor there is an element of "you get what you pay for" to a certain extent.

I can't but notice B6 flight crews are very good. From what I've seen their flight crew pay is ok. Yes, new pilots are paid poorly... But whom else is hiring? Ok, yes, WN, CO, FL, F9, and others are, but only a fraction of the available pilot pool! Of those, only WN and CO offer significantly better pay than B6 for a captain (yes, B6 is lower starting.<<

A point well made and I basically concur.

Let me expand on something.

JetBlue has some exceptional people. No question. The airlines have been in the doldrums, new entrants with solid business plans attract good people - movers and shakers who want to get in on the ground floor.

To keep good people, you have to be willing to pay the what they are worth. Companies who try to short change employees often end up short changing themselves.

As the economy improves (and it is improving) and the airlines rebound, sooner or later airlines start to compete for a shrinking pool of available airline personnel (esp. flight crew members w/ requisite # of hrs). There will not perpetually be the glut of pilots and co pilots that we saw when everybody and his brother except WN was laying off and furloughing folks.

When that happens, it turns in to a situation of supply & demand. Airlines wanting to attract the best will have to pay a bit more, and airlines wanting to retain the good ones they have will have to pay a bit more.

There are limits, of course. An airline paying $1,000 an hour for a pilot is liable to have their choice of lots of pilots...they can pick the best of the lot. But it won't matter for long, as they won't remain in business. And even a B6 pilot making 66 bucks an hour for driving the Embraer around has the requisite skills necessary to keep the thing in the air or he would not be so licensed.

It gets back to companies where employees feel like their contribution to the company is recognized by management - through good wages - and employees who have a stake in the fortunes of their company - through profit sharing - are usually employees who go above and beyond to represent their company well.

I am not saying JetBlue doesn't have good people, but I am saying that to retain the ones you want to keep you have to treat them well, and that does include (but is not limited to) the paycheck.
 
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
If JetBlue decides to take Southwest on....and that's a big if...I don't think they are that stupid.....we are talking scorched Earth.

But - it is okay for Southwest to take on someone - Frontier at DEN, for example - and scorch the earth there?

 Smile

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 3:32 am

Its just business people!!! Does anyone one of us happen to work in the industry or for Jetblue, Southwest or Frontier?
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 25):
Its just business people!!! Does anyone one of us happen to work in the industry or for Jetblue, Southwest or Frontier?

Yup.
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 25):
Does anyone one of us happen to work in the industry or for Jetblue, Southwest or Frontier?

Work? No.

Invest in the business model? Yes.

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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 4:55 pm

Im really sick of hearing how badly the people at JetBlue get paid. That, at least from an Inflight perspective, is untrue. We make really good money, we are not limited in what we can fly, we come and go as we please, we have preferential bidding ... and great raises every year. How is that bad? We start at $20 or $30 (overtime).
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 7:26 pm

FA4B6: I am glad that you are having a good time at your job. Here is the tale of someone who didn't:

>>JetBlue Flight Attendant Fired For Fatigue

Long Beach, CA, March 23--JetBlue flight attendant Carolyn Livingston was fired last week after being bullied into working a flight that put her over the FAA maximum flight attendant duty period. The company accused her of sleeping on the job. She maintains that she was not, although she said she had tried to get herself and her crew released from the flight due to fatigue.

On February 17, Livingston, 35, was lead flight attendant of a four-member cabin crew that was to work a red-eye flight from Long Beach, CA, to Fort Lauderdale, FL, and back the next morning without a break. They were scheduled to report to the airport at 8:20pm and take off at 9:20pm. The flight was delayed two and a half hours, and didn't leave until 11:30pm.

During the flight, Livingston told the pilots to call the cabin crew in fatigued, as they were too tired to work the return flight back to Long Beach Airport, which would now put them over the FAA maximum 14-hour duty day.

When they landed in Fort Lauderdale, an In-flight supervisor met the plane and informed Livingston and her crew that there were no hotel rooms available in Fort Lauderdale, and that they would have to fly them all the way to New York’s JFK airport to get a hotel room if they refused to continue the trip. The supervisor also told Livingston that the return flight to Long Beach would have to cancel unless she and her crew agreed to work it.

Livingston’s crewmembers then decided to change their minds and work the return flight back to Long Beach.

“At this point I felt pressured to work the flight back, too,” Livingston said. “The supervisor intimidated me by telling me that they would have to cancel the flight if we didn’t work it. Plus, she didn’t seem to want to accept no for an answer. She informed us that they wouldn’t be able to get us a hotel room in Fort Lauderdale if we decided to stay.”

Livingston said she finally decided to go ahead and work the flight home, as it seemed to be the easiest solution for everyone involved.

Three weeks later, Livingston’s supervisor notified her of a report from a fellow crewmember that stated Livingston had been sleeping on one of the jumpseats in the back galley during the flight back to Long Beach on February 18. Sleeping on the jumpseat is a fireable offense at JetBlue. Subsequently, Livingston was placed on suspension pending an investigation.

On March 16, Livingston was terminated from JetBlue. The reason given: sleeping on the jumpseat.

“I was shocked. I absolutely was NOT sleeping on the jumpseat,” Livingston said. “Management concocted that as an excuse to fire me for attempting to call in fatigued for the flight.”

Fatigue is not a new issue for the airline crews. Indeed, it has been a major concern since the dawn of aviation. It is especially important since it impacts airline safety. Pilot fatigue has been blamed for many crashes through the years.

“Apparently safety is not JetBlue’s number one concern,” Livingston said. “Otherwise they would have allowed us to call in fatigued and relieved us from the flight. I told the oncoming pilots that we had called in fatigued, and they were shocked that In-flight didn't release us. In their opinion that was a complete no-no.”

Not only does crew fatigue impact airline safety, but also crewmembers’ health. In recent years flight attendant and pilot unions have been trying to push for stricter federal regulations regarding required crew rest and maximum duty days. Many airlines like JetBlue, however, find ways to intimidate their employees into flying past the federally mandated daily limits.

Livingston, a single mother, stated she felt she had no chance of appealing to get her job back.

JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin said the company does not comment on crewmembers to the public.

JetBlue flight attendants are not unionized.<<

I am not a "look for the union label guy" but in this case No union = No recourse to grievance No job. But that's okay. The B6 FAs will organize one of these days. Companies making money can afford to be generous. Companies scrambling to stem losses will be looking around for things to throw under the oncoming train, and non union employees are usually a handy thing to use.
==============================================================================================================================================================================
Mariner writes in, and I quote :>>"But - it is okay for Southwest to take on someone - Frontier at DEN, for example - and scorch the earth there?"<<

Mariner, I'm guessing the smiley face meant that was somewhat in jest. If you were serious I think you may be misinterpreting what I've said.

A tale of two cities (not to be confused with Dolly Parton's press agent's memoirs...." A sale of two.....never mind")

Long Island/Islip was a underutilized airport off the beaten path that didn't have just a while lot of flights, the ones they did have were generally overpriced, and often required that you go to Philadlphia and connect. Southwest came in, chopped the fares, added a bunch of flights, and built a nice new addition to the terminal with their money.

Denver is a crossroads of the entire US and is the hub for a behemoth legacy carrier as well as a healthy LCC. Be that as it may, the fares to some cities were not as low as they ought to be. Salt Lake City, scarcely more than an hour away, had an average one way fare (average, not walk-up fare, from DOT BTS) of $160. Albuquerque $175. Phoenix $158. Prices like these for routes as short as these made them targetable. The bottom line is the airlines in Denver, whether they were LCCs or not, were collecting an average fare equal to or greater than what Southwest would ordinarily charge as a walk up fare. Geographically Denver was in an ideal location for some Southwest planes to land on their way to and from someplace else. It was a no-brainer.

I'm not certain but I really don't see a reason why WN, F9, and even UA can't coexist in Denver. We're not talking a little bitty market here. Keep an eye on what DEN-SLC does after a year or so with low walk up fares. It won't be a crappy little 750 psgr per day market anymore. And the rising tide lifts all boats. The boats just have to be able to live on a lower yield than they had become accustomed to.

I'm pretty sure that WN is not in Denver to scorch anyone's earth. I will tell you, though, that they will defend their position in Islip if it means having to give seats away or even enter the encroaching airline's home turf and leave a big pile of dog doo on their porch. You wanted to fly JetBlue from Long Beach to Oakland? We'll pick you up at Long Beach, take you in a limo to SNA, put you on our flight to Oakland, and give you a voucher for $49 towards your next flight on us. Oh yeah all that and free drinks too.

My bottom line is that they'll compete with you all day long....but there are some things that would be very stupid for another company to do. B6 trying ISP to Florida would be one of those things.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 13499
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 8:50 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
I hear unions are snoopoin around B6.

"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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mariner
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sat May 06, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
I'm pretty sure that WN is not in Denver to scorch anyone's earth.

So the $50 one way DEN-SLC fares, on which I am sure everyone is making sooooooooo much money, plus all the added capacity, this is not scorched earth?

Okay, if you say so. But I'd love to hear your definition of scorched earth.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
the fares to some cities were not as low as they ought to be.

I have no idea what that means. I have no idea what a fare "ought" to be.

A lot of people in the investment world believe that Southwest has been pricing at less than cost on the DEN fares. The fact that they didn't raise fares at DEN when they did everywhere else suggests there might be some truth to the belief.

Is that what a fare "ought" to be?

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
an average one way fare (average, not walk-up fare, from DOT BTS) of $160. Albuquerque $175. Phoenix $158.

As I told another poster last week, I found a Frontier fare DEN-ABQ for half the figure you're quoting. I can get it for Tuesday (May 9) and several other days next week. For $20 more ($40 round trip) I can get it any day.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
I'm not certain but I really don't see a reason why WN, F9, and even UA can't coexist in Denver.

"You are not certain..." Gee, that's comforting, So - maybe Mike Boyd was right first time around - something about "taking Frontier out..."? I am glad that sits so well with you.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
I'm pretty sure that WN is not in Denver to scorch anyone's earth.

I have been able to get $40 one way DEN-LAS. And see DEN-SLC, above - $50.

What was that defintion of "scorched earth" again?

Believe me, I am happy for the shareholders of Southwest - less happy for my own shareholding in Frontier.

I just resist the presentation of Southwest's actions as "altrusitic".

mariner

[Edited 2006-05-06 14:21:15]
aeternum nauta
 
apodino
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
FA4B6: I am glad that you are having a good time at your job. Here is the tale of someone who didn't:

>>JetBlue Flight Attendant Fired For Fatigue

Wow. If this is true, this is a very serious offense by JetBlue. Not in firing the crew member, but in allowing her to work past her duty time. Unfortunately too many airlines are getting away with it, especially Mesa. If crew members aren't given proper rest, how can they perform their jobs well? I am seeing this far too often, and its time for Marion Blakely to step in and show leadership in cracking down on this.
 
John
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 2:18 am

You're right, this is a serious offense and you'd think since FLL is a F/A domicile for B6, they could have called in a reserve crew to cover the understandably fatigued flight attendants with minimal delay. Besides, prior to landing in FLL wasn't the F/A supervisor notified when the pilot supposedly called ahead about the situation? It seems to me from what I've read they should have had enough advance notice to call in replacements out to the airport.
 
FA4B6
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 2:25 am

If you knew Carolyn and the real, true, non "on the jumpseat" version of that story, you'd have a much different picture. She has exaggerated that story to the point that it's humurous. Regardless, those are isolated incidents. With 2300 flight attendants, not everyone is going to have had a fantastic JetBlue Experience. Thats unrealistic, so is pointing out one of these incidents as an example of how the rest of the 2299 flight attendants feel.
"Leap! And the net will appear."
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 2:59 am

>>If you knew Carolyn and the real, true, non "on the jumpseat" version of that story, you'd have a much different picture. She has exaggerated that story to the point that it's humurous.<<

I do not see you nor any spokesperson from your firm offering to give us the "real true" facts on the story. Perhaps you would like to.

Right now everything is wonderful and JetBlue is great and life could not possibly be better for you. That's absolutely fabulous.

At some point in time you may have a supervisor who is an absolute jerk. Who, for whatever reason, has it in for you. If you have no union, you have no representation, and before long...you will have no job.

And with no union and no grievance procedures you are an at will employee and you haven't a prayer.

What are you going to do if you like your job but the bosses decide you haven't aged as gracefully as they'd like and they want to put you out to pasture? What are you going to do if they decide the FAs are getting too senior and make too much money and the way to fix labor costs is to fire the senior folks and hire a bunch of new junior FAs making entry level wages?

You say that you can sue for age discrimination? That you can all get together and demonstrate the company was getting rid of senior folks and get your jobs back?

As an at will employee the company can and will do anything to you or with you that they want. They can make up something...insubordination always works....and have to prove nothing.

Unions aren't the cure for all ills. There are plenty of problems associated with unions themselves. However, the deal with the young lady in the captioned article is now unemployed.

You say her story was exaggerated...not the way things really were. I say where there's smoke, there's fire. A lot of things add up.....we know the company wants crew members to do transcon turnarounds, we know JetBlue has had a heck of a time keeping flights on time so the 2 1/2 hr delay is not a surprise.

The real bottom line is did she bust her hours? That ought to be fairly simple and straightforward to answer.

Unions are less about pay and restrictive work rules now than in the past, but there still needs to be a recourse to grievance for the employee. Some sort of bogus in-house management commitee is the wrong answer.

Sooner or later, you guys will vote in a union. Bank on it. And since airlines fall under the RLA, you will end up paying for it. Therefore, instead of fighting a union, you ought to start thinking about which one you want.
 
bigdrewfl
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:10 pm

RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 32):
Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 29):
FA4B6: I am glad that you are having a good time at your job. Here is the tale of someone who didn't:

>>JetBlue Flight Attendant Fired For Fatigue

That was a RUMOR!!! No truth to it. Story says she call Fatigued and Crew services said no, so she ended up working the trip. So during the trip she fell asleep on the jumpseat!. There is no truth to this story!
 
A330300
Posts: 507
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 35):

At some point in time you may have a supervisor who is an absolute jerk. Who, for whatever reason, has it in for you. If you have no union, you have no representation, and before long...you will have no job.

I have personally experienced this while at B6 and concur. Besides the facts of what happened (inflated incident by management), the arrogant attitude that the company took towards the entire situation (we don't really care or want to listen, go away, oh and we'll make life hard for you if you pursue it) is really what drives people to want to pursue a union. I know that many crewmembers are fed up with their work environment and would be interested some support in the form of a union. It's only a matter of time.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting A330300 (Reply 37):

I have personally experienced this while at B6

Interesting... if this were true, why were the F/A's on my flights so cheerfull? Why did most of the ones I talked to quite will to discuss their experiences at other airlines and how they like B6 so much better? I can only go by my recent experience. But if this was common on B6... I'm certain that they F/A's wouldn't have been so chipper.

With all due respect, I'm not saying Jetblue is flawless... but if this were to be a common practice... with all the scrutiny by the unions and other airlines... I would have seen this. Can you please give me the link to your source? Thanks.

Also, you don't need a union to have representation within a company. Its called Matrix management. Where I work its done correctly and every employee has their advocate called a supervisor. It is the supervisors job to keep up morale, reduce turnover, make sure people get the training they need, and supply talent to the projects. The project is run by a "project manager" who cares about schedule, budget, etc. (that's me). Its not uncommon for heated arguments to break out between managers and supervisors (behind closed doors, of course).

So don't assume a union is required to protect employees. There are new modern management technices that can be ingrained within a company that don't require union dues or abandoning promotion for merit.  Smile B6 seems to being doing something other than the old "command and control" management that is so famous at some airlines.


Funny... Boeing for years though matrix management was a passing fad. But due to their poor retention... they're in the process of going to matrix managment. Partially as too many people during the interview process wanted to know more about how they had an advocate for their people... Then they saw that Lockheed, UTX and most other aerospace engineering all were matrixed and gee... Guess where many applicants preferentially went to.

I've yet to me anyone under a properly done matrix who doesn't love it. Heck, I liked matrix at Pratt even though UTC is known to have one of the most botched implimentations of matrix management ever.

If B6 was really treating their F/A's this way, the word would be out and there would be not waiting list to work for them. But there is a waiting list...  scratchchin  I'm not saying B6 is perfect... But their F/A's truely come across as enthusiastic and that just doesn't happen in an environment where the above story is common.

But then again you might believe all management is the same... sigh... Its not true. I know my current management is 1000% better than my last two employers. I've been here long enough to sniff around and see that its a true high morale company who long term treats their people right. Now that I'm moving up in management, I have every hope of continuing the process... lets see!  bigthumbsup 

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 35):
Unions are less about pay and restrictive work rules now than in the past, but there still needs to be a recourse to grievance for the employee. Some sort of bogus in-house management commitee is the wrong answer.

 checkmark  Please read my above statements on how companies can be structured differently to produce an enviroment much friendlier to employes. Funny thing... its more productive too!  scratchchin  While unions can be a good or bad thing... There are better ways to solve the problem now.  spin 

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
luv2fly
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting A330300 (Reply 37):
At some point in time you may have a supervisor who is an absolute jerk. Who, for whatever reason, has it in for you. If you have no union, you have no representation, and before long...you will have no job.

This is true almost with every office job I have ever had, life goes on.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
crogalski
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 8:09 am

RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 39):
Quoting A330300 (Reply 37):
At some point in time you may have a supervisor who is an absolute jerk. Who, for whatever reason, has it in for you. If you have no union, you have no representation, and before long...you will have no job.

This is true almost with every office job I have ever had, life goes on.

at jetblue, it's different.. the management, VP's will listen to anyone and everyone..

I've emailed Vinny Stabile a few times for some opinions, and he's replied to me within 24 hours... So they def would investigate and/or act on it..
A319 A320 A321 A330 B717 B727 B737 B747 B757 B767 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 DC9 E145 E190 MD88 Q400 | AA AB B6 CO DL EI FL NK
 
A330300
Posts: 507
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Sun May 07, 2006 4:22 pm

I've spoken to Vinny Stabile personally, Dave Bushy, Holly Nelson etc. etc....all were sympathetic and very nice, but really didn't do much in terms of helping me deal with my issue fairly...but life goes on.

Reality is, as JetBlue or any company grows, they will need to grapple with a way to control and manage different aspects of their growth.
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: JetBlue Deferrs A320s And Reduces Fleet

Mon May 08, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Crogalski (Reply 40):

at jetblue, it's different.. the management, VP's will listen to anyone and everyone..

Wow! That's the same at my company.

Quoting A330300 (Reply 41):

Reality is, as JetBlue or any company grows, they will need to grapple with a way to control and manage different aspects of their growth.

I don't disagree. There needs to be an in-company staff of employee advocates. My prefered system is "matrix management" (post 38). So as B6 grows... its a great option to consider.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain