juventus
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LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:40 am

Anybody agree/disagree?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:46 am

Are we talking airport pairs or metropolitan area pairs?

Tokyo-Osaka
London-New York

Those are the first 2 that come to mind.
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timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:57 am

Yeah, none of the LA-area-to-SF-area airport-pairs is near the top, so you have to decide how many airports you're going to include.

And you have to decide whether you're counting flights or passengers.
 
sllevin
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:57 am

If we're talking

SJC/OAK/SJC to BUR/LAX/ONT/SNA

Then I've got to think that is (by both number of flights and total seats) the far and away winner.

Even just SJC/OAK to LAX/BUR (fair by any measure) Southwest alone puts over 15,000 seats a day (total of both ways). Not to count AA and UA and SJC, OAK, and SFO.

but if someone wants to numbers I'd love to see tham.

Steve
 
mah584jr
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:58 am

The airspace from New York to Washington DC is extremely crowded during any given day.
 
timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 3):
If we're talking

SJC/OAK/SJC to BUR/LAX/ONT/SNA

Then I've got to think that is (by both number of flights and total seats) the far and away winner.

Count up the seats Tokyo-Sapporo.
 
exFATboy
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:19 am

I believe that SF Bay - Greater LA (counting all airports) would be the busiest air corridor in the world. Does anyone have any hard figures, comparing to intra-Japan markets?

NYC-Washington is a huge market too, but when you factor in total travel time city-centre to city-centre, Amtrak and driving are both very competitive. That's simply not true of SF Bay - LA.
 
juventus
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:20 am

SJC/OAK/SJC to BUR/LAX/ONT/SNA[/quote]

Yes, all these airports combined. Whenever I fly this route, ATC usually changes our route twice, sometimes even three times due to traffic.


I have to imagine Washington to New York is just as busy...
 
timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:35 am

Not with scheduled flights it isn't.

Further problem: when you say "corridor" one could say the Washington-NY "corridor" includes NY-Philadelphia and Phila-Washington flights. After all, they're in that same "corridor".
 
timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 7):
Whenever I fly this route, ATC usually changes our route twice, sometimes even three times due to traffic.

Got an example?
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 8):


Further problem: when you say "corridor" one could say the Washington-NY "corridor" includes NY-Philadelphia and Phila-Washington flights. After all, they're in that same "corridor".

I think the thread starter means to only be applying this in terms of civil air travel.
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usairways85
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:43 am

There are so many things to consider this is a rather broad statement. Like mentioned already you have to decide whether you are just including LAX and SFO or area airports.

Also is it the busiest corridor with regards to what, aircraft movements or number of paxs. Because for the most part flts between the LAX area and SFO area are narrowbodies. I'm sure there are some Asian markets in which several 747's and 777's fly each day in a domestic configuration. meaning it would take 3 or 4 737's to equal the number of paxs of 1 747.

[Edited 2006-05-06 04:51:27]
 
timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The Wo

Sat May 06, 2006 11:44 am

"I think the thread starter means to only be applying this in terms of civil air travel."

Commercial scheduled flights, you mean? Sure-- but lots of schedules fly along the "corridor" short of the endpoints. Should we include them?

[Edited 2006-05-06 04:46:31]
 
jupiter2
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:48 am

SYD/MEL is very busy as well.

A quick count of a typical Monday shows 31 QF flights (a mix of 744, 330's, 763's and 737's) offering approx 7240 seats. Virgin Blue have some 20 737's offering approx 3600 seats, thats a total of 51 flights and 10840 seats.

There are also a few international connector flights such a UA and TG as well as 4 JQ flights to Avalon near Melbourne.

For just QF and VB at an 80% load factor (a coomon figure for OZ domestic flights) that would be 8384 per day, 58688 per week or 3 051 776 per year, on some 18615 flights.

While these figures are by no means accurate, they would not be to far off. Not to bad for a metropolitan market pair of approx 8 million people, especially when a lot of people can drive between the cities in approx 10-12 hours, and do, plus a few train services each day.

RL
 
timz
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:51 am

Those counts are each way, right? Not total of both ways?
 
supa7E7
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 11:58 am

Hmm, probably the biggest "hot spot" for air traffic, (if you will) is the NE United States, inside this polygon:

BWI/DCA/IAD/PHL/EWR/LGA/JFK/BOS/MHT/PVD/BDL

California may have lots of traffic, but not as much as this.
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jupiter2
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:04 pm

Yes, each way.

So for the year approx 6.1 to 6.2 million for the city pair.

RL
 
QANTAS077
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting Timz (Reply 5):
Count up the seats Tokyo-Sapporo.

count up the seats from Osaka, Tokyo, Fukuoka, Nagoya, Hiroshima to Sapporo...
 
N1120A
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 3):
If we're talking

SJC/OAK/SJC to BUR/LAX/ONT/SNA

You left out OAK-LGB as well.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 15):
Hmm, probably the biggest "hot spot" for air traffic, (if you will) is the NE United States, inside this polygon:

BWI/DCA/IAD/PHL/EWR/LGA/JFK/BOS/MHT/PVD/BDL

California may have lots of traffic, but not as much as this.

Off the top of my head, here are some California routes (plus LAS) with many dailies:

LAX-SFO
LAX-OAK
LAX-SJC
LAX-SMF
LAX-OXR
LAX-SBA
LAX-FAT
LAX-BFL
LAX-IYK
LAX-SAN
LAX-PSP
LAX-SNA
LAX-SBP
LAX-SMX
LAX-LAS
LAX-ONT
SFO-SMF
SFO-RDD
SFO-CEC
SFO-ACV
SFO-BUR
SFO-PSP
SFO-FAT
SFO-MOD
SFO-LAS
SFO-ONT
SFO-SAN
SFO-SNA
SAN-OAK
SAN-SJC
SAN-SMF
SAN-LAS
OAK-LAS
OAK-BUR
OAK-LGB
OAK-SNA
SJC-LAS
SJC-SNA
SJC-SAN
SNA-SMF
SNA-LAS
SMF-LAS

There are more in there, but those are off the top of my head and all have at least 3 dailies. Also, if you added PHX in there (only 3-4 hours from the CA border) you would add more than 60 flights to multiple destinations
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steeler83
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 15):
Hmm, probably the biggest "hot spot" for air traffic, (if you will) is the NE United States, inside this polygon:

BWI/DCA/IAD/PHL/EWR/LGA/JFK/BOS/MHT/PVD/BDL

California may have lots of traffic, but not as much as this.

Definitely, the Northeast airspace is insanely busy, especially between BOS, JFK-EWR-LGA, PHL, BWI, DCA-IAD... I-95 is jammed, Amtrak is jammed, the air is jammed... damn, everything up there is jammed...  crazy 
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usairways85
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:40 pm

You just added a bunch of cities that only receive RJ service from LAX, LAX, SFO and SAN

These are rough estimates but i can't be off by that much
Consider:
JFK-BOS at least 10 flts
LGA-BOS at least 20-30 flts
EWR-BOS at least 20 flts
PHL-BOS at least 20-25 flts
DCA-BOS at least 15-20 flts
BWI-BOS at least 10 flts
IAD-BOS at least 10 flts
PHL-LGA at least 10 flts
DCA-LGA at least 20 flts
IAD-LGA at least 5-10 flts
BWI-LGA at least 5-10 flts
DCA-PHL at least 10 flts
BWI-PHL at least 5-10 flts
IAD-EWR at least 10 flts
IAD-JFK at least 5 flts
IAD-PHL at least 5 flts

That's an estimate of 190 flts a day just between those 8 cities now double that for return trips and thats about 400 flts a day.

That's just flts from DCA, IAD, BWI, PHL, EWR, LGA, JFK, and BOS
now add PVD, MHT, BDL, ISP, ALB, MDT, ABE
 
sllevin
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:41 pm

OAK-ONT: 12
OAK-LAX: 23
OAK-BUR: 17
OAK-SNA: 10
SJC-ONT: 11
SJC-LAX: 15
SJC-BUR: 9
SJC-SNA: 7

104 flights (one way) * 137 seats = 14248 for Southwest alone.

UA

SFO-LAX: 19 mainline with various equipment (757, 733, A319)
SFO-BUR: 7 half 70 seats and 733's
SFO-SNA: 6 half RJ half mainline
SFO-ONT: 3 (2rj 1 mainline)
SJC-LAX: 6 RJ
OAK-LAX 6 1 mainline 5 RJ

I'm gonna call it 4200 seats for UA

AA:

SFO-LAX: 7 mainline
SJC-LAX: 6 RJ
SJC-SNA: 5 RJ

call it 1200 for AA

...and some other small change that I got bored.

So a good 20,000 seats each day, one way.

Steve
 
cloudyapple
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:47 pm

That's for Los Angeles Area to San Francisco Area.

For single airport to single airport - Hong Kong - Taipei ranks top in seat counts - 40 flightsa day, all widebodies with the smallest ones being A333/A343.
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QANTAS077
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:58 pm

77 flights per day from mainland Japan to Sapporo of which 43 are from Tokyo with NH/JL, not including other domestic carriers.

the mix of 744, 773, 763 used from Tokyo and Osaka is staggering, i don't think you could count the seats because accurate info on JL/NH domestic configs is hard to find...i know the 744D with NH is configured to something like 600+, the 773 is 500+ also. not sure of the JL configs but it would be similar...just from Tokyo alone it would be about 18000 seats per day.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 12:59 pm

What about NYC to Florida? That route is quite dense with widebody service such as AA's A300s.
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mah584jr
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:00 pm

I remember reading somewhere that the NYC and PHL were among the top most delayed airports in the country.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 22):
For single airport to single airport - Hong Kong - Taipei ranks top in seat counts - 40 flightsa day, all widebodies with the smallest ones being A333/A343.

not quite, the Tokyo-Sapporo route is far bigger due to the high capacity 747D and 773...smallest used is the 737 on the route but the 747 and 773 are configured to 600+ and 500+ respectively.
 
Lindy
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 20):
Consider:
JFK-BOS at least 10 flts
LGA-BOS at least 20-30 flts
EWR-BOS at least 20 flts
PHL-BOS at least 20-25 flts
DCA-BOS at least 15-20 flts
BWI-BOS at least 10 flts
IAD-BOS at least 10 flts
PHL-LGA at least 10 flts
DCA-LGA at least 20 flts
IAD-LGA at least 5-10 flts
BWI-LGA at least 5-10 flts
DCA-PHL at least 10 flts
BWI-PHL at least 5-10 flts
IAD-EWR at least 10 flts
IAD-JFK at least 5 flts
IAD-PHL at least 5 flts

I can add BWI-ISP at least 14 flights a day just WN each way. IAD-BOS is at 15 each way. Plus flights from DCA, IAD and BWI to White Plains, Hardford, Providence, Manchester and many many more destinations in the NE.

Rafal
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usairways85
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 25):
I remember reading somewhere that the NYC and PHL were among the top most delayed airports in the country.

You are correct, PHL is consistantly at the bottom of the on-time list. Many people blame the layout of PHL which to an extent is true. PHL is limited in the number of runways and taxiways thus creating congestion on the tarmac.

However PHL also gets shafted when WAS or NYC have problems. They expand the NYC or WAS airspace thus making PHL's even smaller and causing planes to spread further apart when arriving and departing thus causing delays.

Many people blame PHL when its just a very light rain, but at a near ground stop. In reality it could be a storm passing WAS that is causing the trickle down effect.
 
N1120A
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 20):
You just added a bunch of cities that only receive RJ service from LAX, LAX, SFO and SAN

A bunch of them don't even get RJs, they get turboprops. The point was service frequency not seats. The California Corridor is busier than the Northeast
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mah584jr
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:24 pm

There are many different ways to look at this(pax, freq), but in terms of aircraft per square mile I can think of no corridor that is busier than NYC-PHL.
 
N1120A
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Mah584jr (Reply 30):
There are many different ways to look at this(pax, freq), but in terms of aircraft per square mile I can think of no corridor that is busier than NYC-PHL.

That depends if you are talking commercial or general aviation and military aviation as well. If you are talking the latter, Los Angeles-San Diego likely takes the cake
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jupiter2
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:33 pm

Had a quick look at Tokyo to Sapporo, courtesy of one of the excellent Japanes spotters sites which has full timetables for both HND and NRT.

Haneda to Sapporo has as follows:
All Nippon
10 x 744
3 x 773
2 x 763
1 x 320

JAL
6 x 744
3 x 773
5 x 772
6 x 763
1 x AB6

Skymark
10 x 763

Air Do
5 x 763
3 x 734

Thats a total of 54 flights a day, they are all daily.

Totals for each aircraft areas follows:
744 : 16
773 : 6
772 : 5
763 : 22
AB6 : 1
320 : 1
734 : 3

Narita has stuff all, only 3 flights a day of which 1 is a 763, 1 A320 and 1 CRJ.

At a guess that is approx 22000 seats per day, everyday of the year.

RL
 
JBLUA320
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:36 pm

I remember reading that EWR/LGA/JFK - MIA/FLL/PBI was the most populus O&D market in the world...

JBLU
 
usairways85
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
That depends if you are talking commercial or general aviation and military aviation as well. If you are talking the latter, Los Angeles-San Diego likely takes the cake

You seem to be forgetting that within the Northeast lies two very busy Military airbases at Dover in Delaware and McGuire in New Jersey as well as an Air National Guard base in Atlantic City with 20-30 fighter jets. Add to that a number of busy general aviation airports in Northern New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut
 
N1120A
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 34):
You seem to be forgetting that within the Northeast lies two very busy Military airbases at Dover in Delaware and McGuire in New Jersey as well as an Air National Guard base in Atlantic City with 20-30 fighter jets. Add to that a number of busy general aviation airports in Northern New Jersey, New York, and Connecticut

Dude, between Miramar, North Island, Pt. Mugu, Edwards, Victorville and March in the San Diego and Los Angeles metro areas alone, you have significantly more military traffic. Also, Los Angeles is home to the busiest GA only airport in the world (Van Nuys, VNY, KVNY) along with countless other heavy GA airports all over the state.
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BA
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 2:00 pm

The busiest air route in the world is indeed Tokyo to Sapporo in Japan. More than 8 million passengers are handled annually.

There are several articles that can be found on the internet about this topic.
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usairways85
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 36):
The busiest air route in the world is indeed Tokyo to Sapporo in Japan. More than 8 million passengers are handled annually.

Well that settles the initial question with regard to number of paxs, which i assumed would be an Asian route simply because they are operated by so many widebodies. However the question of what corridor has the most flts or busiest airspace is a little harder to pinpoint
 
jacobin777
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 21):

SFO-LAX: 7 mainline
SJC-LAX: 6 RJ
SJC-SNA: 5 RJ

add SFO-SNA : 5 RJ
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planeboy
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 2:52 pm

What about MAD-BCN? It could be 3rd, if not first or second.
 
ikramerica
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 21):
So a good 20,000 seats each day, one way.

There's also an AS flight, a 739 LAX-SFO once a day. Every little flight counts.

And F9 will be starting 5 flights IIRC.
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levent
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 6:17 pm

If I'm correct Iberia alone operates about 60 flights per day on the Madrid-Barcelona Puente Aereo (air bridge) and then there's other airlines on this route as well (Air Europa, Spanair, Vueling...)

Amsterdam-London would also be a contender.
 
UpperDeck79
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 23):
the mix of 744, 773, 763 used from Tokyo and Osaka is staggering, i don't think you could count the seats because accurate info on JL/NH domestic configs is hard to find...i know the 744D with NH is configured to something like 600+, the 773 is 500+ also. not sure of the JL configs but it would be similar...just from Tokyo alone it would be about 18000 seats per day.

Not THAT hard to find.  Wink

Here are all the JAL seatmaps, including domestic (you can see the number of seats, too):
http://www.jal.co.jp/5971/seatmap/seatmap.html

And here are the ANA seatmaps, including domestic:
http://www.ana.co.jp/dom/inflight/seatmap/index.html

Yes, the sites are in Japanese, but of course the aircraft type and number of seats is readable for everyone.  Smile
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scbriml
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 7:31 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 41):
Amsterdam-London would also be a contender.

While there are quite a few flights London-Amsterdam, apart from 1 763 (soon to be A332) the rest are all A32x & 73x or smaller. Same for London-Paris, lots of small stuff.

Can't possibly get close to Tokyo-Sapporo.
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MAH4546
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Juventus (Reply 7):
I have to imagine Washington to New York is just as busy...

South Florida to New York City is busier than WAS to NYC, since the latter has trains. LA to the Bay Area is the highest traveled US dometic corridor usually, though SoFla to NYC takes the crown sometimes. Neither is as traveled as Tokyo to Sapporo.
a.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 8:59 pm

I thought I had posted this earlier, but it apparently did not.

The Southern California area (LAX,BUR,ONT,LGB,SNA) to the Bay Area (SFO,OAK,SJC):

The color codes (orange = WN, gray = UA, blue = B6) designate at a glance the leading carrier.

While maybe this is not a Japan-dense market, over 7.3 Million psgrs per year is nothing to sneeze at.

Big version: Width: 960 Height: 720 File size: 119kb
 
N1120A
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RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 45):
I thought I had posted this earlier, but it apparently did not.

The Southern California area (LAX,BUR,ONT,LGB,SNA) to the Bay Area (SFO,OAK,SJC):

The color codes (orange = WN, gray = UA, blue = B6) designate at a glance the leading carrier.

While maybe this is not a Japan-dense market, over 7.3 Million psgrs per year is nothing to sneeze at.

And that doesn't include SMF, which is often included as the outermost part of the Bay Area.
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txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:30 pm

I can run it to SMF & SAN if you like.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 47):
I can run it to SMF & SAN if you like.

Sure, if you feel like it
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dmt52
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 2:33 am

RE: LAX-SFO Is This The Busiest Corridor In The World?

Sat May 06, 2006 10:57 pm

IIRC according to the Cleveland ATC Center website, the airspace they monitor is the busiest in the world. They are rignt in the middle of New York and Chicago and handle a large number of cross country traffic.
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