dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 1:44 pm

Now that there are only 5 open gates in the E terminal, there is not room for WN to move its DAL operation to DFW and launch long haul service. Now, the only way for WN to expand with long haul service is by repealing Wright and utilizing empty gates at DAL


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...us.ART.State.Edition1.dbdea92.html

D/FW takes steps to lure more carriers
Airport board OKs new incentive program; two other efforts revised

12:00 AM CDT on Friday, May 5, 2006
By SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News


Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport is sweetening its offer to carriers willing to bring new service to North Texas.

The airport board approved a new incentive program Thursday that, for the most lucrative flights, would offer up to $1.2 million in landing fee rebates and marketing support.

The program revises two other incentive efforts – one that offered free gates in Terminal E after Delta Air Lines Inc. left, and another paying out matching funds for carriers that launch advertising campaigns for new service.

Joe Lopano, who heads D/FW's marketing effort, said the previous programs had become outdated.

For example, the Terminal E program offered incentives for carriers taking a minimum of 10 gates. But after shifting several carriers over from elsewhere at the airport, Terminal E has just five empty gates in the main building and nine at a satellite.....
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
tcttx
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 3:11 pm

Surely the 14 gates available in Terminal E would be enough.
 
iowaman
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Tcttx (Reply 1):
Surely the 14 gates available in Terminal E would be enough.

Nadda, WN currently has about 140? roughly flights out of DAL, and would need all 14 DFW gates to maintain their current short-haul service, let alone the long-haul expansion that the WA is holding back.
 
N1120A
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 2):
Nadda, WN currently has about 140? roughly flights out of DAL, and would need all 14 DFW gates to maintain their current short-haul service, let alone the long-haul expansion that the WA is holding back.

Beyond that, the need to schedule longer turn times would likely lose them a few flights over the course of the day.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 8:42 pm

The entire Terminal E Annex (16 gates) is still empty. Since AE moved to Terminal B, the 1E Terminal is empty (14 gates).
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Tcttx (Reply 1):
Surely the 14 gates available in Terminal E would be enough.

The 9 E sataellite gates are pretty undesireable for any carrier. I thought both the A satellite and E satellite were going to be torn down anyway. That would leave only 5 open in E for WN. I don't think it would be healthy for DFW to have absolutely no open gates ready for other carriers to begin service. Regardless, I think WN would fully utilize its 21 gates at DAL once Wright is lifted and there just isn't that kind of capacity available at DFW.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
atrude777
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 2):
Nadda, WN currently has about 140?

120 DD out of DAL.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
SPREE34
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
The entire Terminal E Annex (16 gates) is still empty. Since AE moved to Terminal B, the 1E Terminal is empty (14 gates).

Not suitable for 737 size aircraft. They were used by RJs and turboprops.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
king
Posts: 183
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 10:31 pm

A relatively cheap terminal F could be built for WN or any future carrier. It already has access roads/ramps, a parking lot, and the Skylink train runs through it.
 
cjpark
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 2):
Nadda, WN currently has about 140? roughly flights out of DAL, and would need all 14 DFW gates to maintain their current short-haul service, let alone the long-haul expansion that the WA is holding back.

Finally someone else recognises that Southwest Airlines has been withholding long haul service from North Texas. Iowaman welcome to the Dark Side!

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 5):
The 9 E sataellite gates are pretty undesireable for any carrier. I thought both the A satellite and E satellite were going to be torn down anyway. That would leave only 5 open in E for WN. I don't think it would be healthy for DFW to have absolutely no open gates ready for other carriers to begin service. Regardless, I think WN would fully utilize its 21 gates at DAL once Wright is lifted and there just isn't that kind of capacity available at DFW.

The 5 gates at Terminal E and the rest f the gates at Satellite Terminal E are perfect for Southwest. Quick access to the taxi way for both east and west sides of the airport. Besides Wright is not going anywhere anyway.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
apodino
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:00 pm

Even though I am against wright and want it repealed this is a BS arguement. With the gates in E all being filled, it is inevitable that the airport, or at least the way its run, will probably have to build a terminal F on the West side of the airport near the international terminal. This is where Southwest would end up if they moved. That being said, we all know southwest doesn't start service into a new airport with more than 3 or 4 gates, and there are still 5 open, or at least until they can convince United to move over there. Plus there are some gates in D that are common use as well.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 5):
The 9 E sataellite gates are pretty undesireable for any carrier.

I had read here recently that US Airways or Spirit was working on turning the E Satellite into something usable again, something like what this depicts from 1992...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Christopher Liao - Spot This!



If WN had to move to DFW tomorrow, there is nothing available for their use as it stands. If I were Southwest, the most ideal location at DFW to build a new stand-alone terminal with about 12-15 gates would be between runways 36C and 36R, south of the Delta hangar, near where Founders Plaza is located. You could have an entrance off of the International Parkway around the southern end of the runways...
 
FCYTravis
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:35 pm

The E Satellite gates are getting jetways so that US Airways/America West can move their combined operations there. Sadly and stupidly, the DFW Airport Board won't let US lease the old Delta Crown Room Club... I guess the airport board wants their own private club, sort of like they have their names inlaid on the floor of Terminal D  Yeah sure

Right now they fly:
6x DFW-PHX
5x DFW-LAS
5x DFW-PHL
5x DFW-CLT
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:35 pm

Guys, this thread is purely a moot point, since the availability of DFW gates for Southwest is a non-issue. After countless Wright threads, everyone should know by now why Southwest isn't interested in DFW, and prefers to stay at Love. Well, almost everyone...  Yeah sure
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 9):
The 5 gates at Terminal E and the rest f the gates at Satellite Terminal E are perfect for Southwest. Quick access to the taxi way for both east and west sides of the airport. Besides Wright is not going anywhere anyway.

WN's got 21 gates at DAL and there is just not enough gate space for them at DFW. Gotta open up DAL to provide any relief from high airfares in North Texas.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
texan
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sat May 06, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):
Not suitable for 737 size aircraft. They were used by RJs and turboprops.

Up until the mid to late 1990s, though DL still operated mainline flights out of there with MD80s and 737s, although operating mainline jets out of the annex does decrease the number of gates available.

But as OPNL said, WN still does not want to move to DFW, so what's the point?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
srbmod
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 14):
Gotta open up DAL to provide any relief from high airfares in North Texas.

I guess those folks drinking the WN Kool-Aid tend to forget that DFW does have LCCs operating out of there. FL flies to ATL, MCO, and LAS (also used to fly to LAX and BWI, but dropped them due to AA); HP/US to PHL, DCA, PHX, LAS, and CLT; NK to FLL; F9 to DEN; and TZ to MDW.
 
SPREE34
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:24 am

Texan and OPNLguy pretty much said it.

Thread dead.  Smile
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
steeler83
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 2):
Nadda, WN currently has about 140? roughly flights out of DAL, and would need all 14 DFW gates to maintain their current short-haul service, let alone the long-haul expansion that the WA is holding back.

Yeah, although, someone said that the actual DDs are 120. Still, I could see a MINIMUM of 200 DDs from Dallas for long haul, whether it be from DAL or DFW

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 16):
HP/US to PHL, DCA, PHX, LAS, and CLT

Hopefully they'll bring back PIT service if/when they get more E70 or E90 aircraft, just a thought; knowing PIT and air service out there, it won't happen. Nothing happens there anymore. It is almost as exciting as going to the bank...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
apodino
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:59 am

You guys don't get it. Now you are using the BS no space available arguement. You know, Cjpark knows, Boeing7E7 knows, and I know thats a crock.

As I have said, there is plenty of space available to build new terminals, since the airport was designed for expansion. I believe there is an open lot on the west side where a terminal F can go, and it would put three terminals on each side of the airport. And if it works anything like Orlando, you can assign runways based on docking gate, meaning United, International Flights, American Eagle, and Southwest on the west side, and everyone else on the east side. This would shorten taxi times up, and everyone is happy.

Besides, Cox and Fagan are on record as saying, if WN ever did move, DFW would build them a new terminal. So to suddenly claim there is no space for them, and thats why wright should be repealed is utter nonsense. And no one has responded to the fact that WN has NEVER opened a new station with more than 3 gates or so, and by your own admission, there are 5 available.

Granted the terminal would take a little while to build. But repealing wright with the lengthy congressional process takes time as well, especially since congress already has its hands full.

Still, I don't want a WN/AA duopoly in the metroplex. There are plenty of other fine airlines, and those are the ones that are going to be able to create lower airfares, not southwest or American. The best solution is to just repeal wright, and let the market work. But to claim that WN can't move because of no gate space is Bull$#!& and I won't stay quiet as long as this arguement is raised, because you are only helping the other side in this debate.
 
texan
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
As I have said, there is plenty of space available to build new terminals, since the airport was designed for expansion. I believe there is an open lot on the west side where a terminal F can go, and it would put three terminals on each side of the airport.

The Master Plan calls for 8 terminals arranged on the N/S line and possible other terminals on either side of the airport. But then we look at how much it costs to build new terminals, how the cost is passed along to the operator, and the economics issue rears it's ugly head again. Yes, it would be possible to spend another couple billion on a new terminal, but it would just sit there unused for quite a while.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
visakow
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 9:20 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:33 am

I don't know what the big deal is with Texas anymore. Yes they were born from Texas but that doesn't mean they need to thrive or die in Texas. WN is a big boy now and can operate successfully from wherever they choose. Yes I think the Wright A. is "BS" but either way they still have a very great product to sell and plenty of profit to make irregardless. They could pull out of TX all together and still stay in the black, though, of course that is not realistic and would make for a ugly business decision. Either way I don't understand all the hoopla. Personally I like seeing WN snub all the ego-maniacal TX politicians who still work against them.
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:40 am

Come on guys, if WN were to move to DFW, we all know that DFW would be more than happy to make room for them. If that means kicking everybody out to Terminal B, kicking Eagle back to were they were before, and giving Terminal E to WN, or kicking Eagle and giving B to WN. They can easily make room.

Plus, since no new carriers have come in (besides the very limited service from Spirit), how can all of a sudden there be no room for WN? Let's think logically here.

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 12):
Right now they fly:
6x DFW-PHX
5x DFW-LAS
5x DFW-PHL
5x DFW-CLT

Don't forget 3x DFW-DCA.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 13):
After countless Wright threads, everyone should know by now why Southwest isn't interested in DFW, and prefers to stay at Love. Well, almost everyone...

Hey, it was one of "your" guys that brought it up.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 22):
Hey, it was one of "your" guys that brought it up.

..and your point is? (My comment was meant for everyone, irrespective of whichever side of the issue they're on...)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 23):
..and your point is? (My comment was meant for everyone, irrespective of whichever side of the issue they're on...)

I interpreted as a negative post aimed at one specific side. Sorry about that.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
As I have said, there is plenty of space available to build new terminals, since the airport was designed for expansion.

There is not currently sufficient gate space at DFW to handle an unrestricted WN operation.

Why spend billions on new terminals and gates when there is sufficient infrastructure already in place to use at DAL?

WN has said they will not move to DFW.

DFW should keep a few gates available for B6, Virgin America, or any other new entrant.

The logical solution is to remove Wright, utilze existing infrastructure at DAL and then expand DFW as necessary.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 22):
Hey, it was one of "your" guys that brought it up.

I realize I'm dealing in a hypothetical saying there is no room for WN to move to DFW, but you all to often hear:
"They should just close DAL and move WN over to DFW"
"There is so much wasted infrastructure at DFW"

Well, that is all baloney.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 25):
The logical solution is to remove Wright, utilze existing infrastructure at DAL and then expand DFW as necessary.

Right, then everybody could and would be happy with this. WN would make long hauls to the top markets like MDW, LAX, PHL et al. And AA would still maintain its fortress hub without a hitch, and there would be national competition as opposed to regional or intrastate competition...

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 25):
I realize I'm dealing in a hypothetical saying there is no room for WN to move to DFW, but you all to often hear:
"They should just close DAL and move WN over to DFW"
"There is so much wasted infrastructure at DFW"

Well, that is all baloney.

How much room IS available at DAL? Is there room to expand and add gates or mx facilities there? I hope this doesn't sound like I am doubting the possibility; I am just curious...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 25):
Well, that is all baloney.

Everything and anything about the Wright Amendment fight is baloney. Anybody else sick of it? It seems like only nonsense are pouring out of both sides.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
sccutler
Posts: 5556
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 9):
Finally someone else recognises that Southwest Airlines has been withholding long haul service from North Texas. Iowaman welcome to the Dark Side!

The absurdity of this position never ceases to amuse.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 22):
Come on guys, if WN were to move to DFW, we all know that DFW would be more than happy to make room for them.

SOAC, no so sure about that; WN fully-functional at DFW is AA's worst nightmare, and AA calls the shots- all of 'em- at DFW.

If the DFW Board wanted WN at DFW, their "offer" of gates would not have contained a bevy of conditions clearly calculated to be utterly incompatible with WN's operation.

===

Overarching message of this latest news is, however, interesting: DFW's existing facilities are almost full. Repeal Wright and (as 7E7 is so fond of saying) protect and get the best available use out of existing aviation infrastructure.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
visakow
Posts: 121
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:26 am

I just remember, didn't Western Pacific go south/gutter after moving from a successful operation at Colorado Springs to a nightmare with UA at the new DIA. I am sure there were other mitigating circumstances.
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 5:36 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 28):
SOAC, no so sure about that; WN fully-functional at DFW is AA's worst nightmare, and AA calls the shots- all of 'em- at DFW.

AA would much rather have WN move to DFW than AA move some of its operation to DAL.

Quoting Visakow (Reply 29):
I just remember, didn't Western Pacific go south/gutter after moving from a successful operation at Colorado Springs to a nightmare with UA at the new DIA. I am sure there were other mitigating circumstances.

I consider that two completely different situations.

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 9):
Finally someone else recognises that Southwest Airlines has been withholding long haul service from North Texas.

Are you being sarcastic? The poster you're quoting refers to the WA "withholding long haul service", not WN. Nice try, though.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
And no one has responded to the fact that WN has NEVER opened a new station with more than 3 gates or so, and by your own admission, there are 5 available.

Well, this would be a valid point if WN was to consider opening DFW in addition to DAL. Since the thread is about WN moving the entire DAL operation to DFW, it's sort of moot, unless you're seriously proposing WN run a split operation in Dallas.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 27):
Anybody else sick of it?

Amen, brother.

(of course, that does raise the question of why I even bothered to open this thread, but I never claimed to be consistent  Silly )
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
Are you being sarcastic? The poster you're quoting refers to the WA "withholding long haul service", not WN. Nice try, though.

I was wondering if anyone else would notice that subtle 7,200 rpm's worth...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1218
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 30):
AA would much rather have WN move to DFW than AA move some of its operation to DAL.

But the only reason that is even a consideration is AA's own business stupidity. They calim that if wright were repealed they would be "Forced" to split their operation when no such thing is true.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 5:07 am

>>I guess those folks drinking the WN Kool-Aid tend to forget that DFW does have LCCs operating out of there. FL flies to ATL, MCO, and LAS (also used to fly to LAX and BWI, but dropped them due to AA); HP/US to PHL, DCA, PHX, LAS, and CLT; NK to FLL; F9 to DEN; and TZ to MDW.<<

And what the DFW Kool-Aid drinkers fail to mention is despite this "plethora" of LCC service out of DFW, LCC passengers represented a scant 5.1% of total DFW passengers in February.

Source (xls file)

Here was the breakdown:

Airline - Monthly Pax

AirTran - 24,067
ATA - 9,662
US Airways - 51,442
Frontier - 13,160
Sun Country - 2,453
Spirit - 2,771

That's a whopping 103,557 DFW LCC passengers in March.

Compare that to someplace like AUS.

AUS monthly activity report for Feb.

Southwest - 205,841
Frontier - 12,133
US Airways - 19,950
JetBlue - 17,177
======================
Total LCC Pax - 255,101
Total ALL Pax - 576,736.

Compared to DFW, AUS had 2 and a half times as many LCC passengers in February. LCC passengers accounted for 44.2% of all passengers flying in and out of AUS in February compared to 5.1% at DFW for the same month. Nationally, LCC carriers account for about 35-40% of the market. Considering the metro Austin area is about 1/4 the size of the Dallas Fort-Worth Metroplex, DFW's LCC presence is just pitiful.

(edited to fix numerical typo)

LoneStarMike

[Edited 2006-05-06 22:38:03]

 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 33):
But the only reason that is even a consideration is AA's own business stupidity. They claim that if wright were repealed they would be "Forced" to split their operation when no such thing is true.

Maybe they also previously felt "forced" to serve MDW in addition to their big operation at ORD, but in any event, they just decided to cease MDW ops as of September. Business stupidity transitioning into business smarts?

AA funds ($1,000,000 so far) Stop-and-Think, an "astroturf" (versus true "grassroots") group based here in the Metroplex. Among other things, Stop-and-Think "worries" about increased noise, and lo and behold, their corporate benefactor then conveniently delivers that increased noise via their use of MD-80s at Love instead of their quieter 737-800s. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Likewise, AA admits that they'll lose millions from Love operations, but claim that they'd lose more if they did nothing. Somehow, that seems contrary to the logic demonstrated by their MDW pull-out in favor of playing to their strengths at ORD. Now, what exactly was the point of their serving Love again? Oh yeah, so they could lose $100+ million a year. At some future point (especially if oil/fuel stays high) we may see AA start telling a tale of woe re: their financial shape, and if so, just like the louder MD-80 noise, they will have largely created the very situation they're lamenting.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 28):
The absurdity of this position never ceases to amuse.

Really then why isn't Southwest flying long distance routes from North Texas now? Show us anywhere in the Wright Amendment were it says Southwest cannot fly long distance from any other PAX airport in North Texas.

Actually believing that there is make believe barrier preventing Southwest from flying anywhere in the world from North Texas is absurd and amusing.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 28):
If the DFW Board wanted WN at DFW, their "offer" of gates would not have contained a bevy of conditions clearly calculated to be utterly incompatible with WN's operation.

Airports are prohibited from placing restrictions on airline operations that specify where they can fly to. How long do you think that would have stood up in court?

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 32):
I was wondering if anyone else would notice that subtle 7,200 rpm's worth...

Nope you would have to be able to hear that over the spin emanating from Southwest Headquarters first.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 34):
And what the DFW Kool-Aid drinkers fail to mention is despite this "plethora" of LCC service out of DFW, LCC passengers represented a scant 5.1% of total DFW passengers in February.

While you are counting passengers on those LCC flights from Austin you might also want to acknowledge the number of LCC flights at Austin.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 36):
Really then why isn't Southwest flying long distance routes from North Texas now?

The same reason they aren't flying RJs from North Texas. They have more profitable activites to engage in. Unrestrict DAL and long distance flying becomes a much more attractive option.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 11:51 am

>>While you are counting passengers on those LCC flights from Austin you might also want to acknowledge the number of LCC flights at Austin<<

Effecive March 31, 2006 WN had 48 daily (Mon. through Fri.) mainline departures out of AUS. JetBlue had 4. Frontier had 2. US Airways has 2 plus 4 daily RJ nonstops for a total of 60 daily LCC flights -- 56 of which are mainline.

At DFW, AirTran had 11 mainline departures, ATA had 3, US Airways had 17, Frontier had 6, and Sun Country had 1 for a total of 38 daily mainline departures. I didn't count Spirit because they don't offer daily service -- only on weekends. I don't know whether US Airways and Frontier offer any regional jet service out of DFW.

You'd think if AUS - an airport which only saw 7.6 million passengers last year - has 56 daily mainline departures, then DFW -- the economic engine of North Texas that saw over 59 million passengers last year -- could manage more than 38. Then again, maybe it's because AUS' largest carrier (WN) only controls 35% of the market at AUS , while at DFW, AA controls 85%.

LoneStarMike

 
cjpark
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 38):
You'd think if AUS - an airport which only saw 7.6 million passengers last year - has 56 daily mainline departures, then DFW -- the economic engine of North Texas that saw over 59 million passengers last year -- could manage more than 38. Then again, maybe it's because AUS' largest carrier (WN) only controls 35% of the market at AUS , while at DFW, AA controls 85%.

Exactly. That is why it is important to get WN to DFW.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
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par13del
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:25 pm

ExFatBoy mad an interesting comment, which is food for thought.
DFW and AA supports the lifting of the W.A. if WN commit's to opening a "STATION" at DFW. DAL would remain open, the master plan in place and WN would run a split operation.
Noth Texans would finally have long distance service via WN from DFW, DAL customers would have the same service from DAL, the politico's could thrash out which routes would be permissible from DAL and DFW.
I mean this is what everyone wants right? WN flying to anywhere from DAL and DFW having WN service.
WN could have trans con flight from DFW where the quick turn aint too much of an issue, those where it is could be run from DAL.
To the experts, could this work? Would this create traffic problems in terms of DAL and DFW capacity? Both airports would maintain their work force, no jobs lost.
Just a thought.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 39):
Exactly. That is why it is important to get WN to DFW.

Actually, I think it's more important to let Southwest executives run Southwest Airlines. I know everyone else under the sun seems to think its somehow their purpose to, but it's basic business 101. Southwest runs Southwest; AA runs AA; Nokia runs Nokia; Acme Widget runs Acme Widget.

One might not particularly care for how Acme Widget runs their outfit, and while opinions are nice, they have limits. Become a major shareholder in Acme Widgets; express ones opinions at a shareholders meeting, write the BOD--there are all sorts of expressive and productive avenues. Grumbling that one's opinion (as an outsider) isn't taken as Gospel isn't one of them.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:13 pm

>>Exactly. That is why it is important to get WN to DFW.<<

Get WN to DFW... or force WN to DFW? As important as it is, it ain't gonna happen. Consider this:

On city-pairs where AA and WN both compete (AA from DFW, WN from DAL) AA's fares are pretty much in line with Southwest's. A roundtrip on AA out of DFW might cost $4.50 more than Southwest out of Love field because DFW has a $4.50 Passenger Facility Charge while Love Field does not, but both airlines charge pretty much the same base fare in these markets where they both compete.

Yet in most of these markets, Southwest's market share is twice that of AA (or more in some cases. These figures are from Q3 2005 (Before WN started the DAL-MCI and DAL-STL service.)

City - Mkt Share Leader - Market Share

Albuquerque - Southwest - 66%
Amarillo - Southwest - 76%
Austin - Southwest - 80%
Birmingham - American - 77%
Corpus Christi - Southwest - 65%
El Paso - Southwest - 71%
Harlingen - Southwest 98%
Houston - Southwest - 66%
Jackson - American - 66%
Kansas City - American - 89%
Little Rock - Southwest - 64%
Lubbock - Southwest - 85%
Midland/Odessa - Southwest - 87%
New Orleans - Southwest - 62%
Oklahoma City - Southwest - 67%
St. Louis - American - 91%
San Antonio - Southwest - 77%
Tulsa - Southwest - 70%

My question is - if DFW is convenient to more of the Metroplex than Love Field is, and has better freeway access, and if AA and WN are basically matching fares in these markets, why does WN have the lion's share of traffic on those routes? My guess would be that most of the O&D travelers in these short-haul markets originate from or are going to the eastern half of the Metroplex.

Obviously, Southwest doesn't want to split its operations between DFW and Love Field. What would happen if WN just moved everything to DFW? While they'd be able to compete in the long-haul markets, I think they'd lose a big chunk of their existing short-haul travelers that they currently have at Love Field. A lot of those folks would probably just drive instead, especially in the shorter distance markets like Oklahoma City and Austin.

Even if Wright goes away and Southwest offers long-haul service from Love Field, the bulk of their Love Field service will still be short-haul. Love Field is better suited for short-haul travel which is why Southwest didn't want to go to DFW in the first place.

You can dream about WN at DFW all you want -- along with Kevin Cox, and Jeff Feagan -- but I think it's going to be quite sometime before your dream becomes a reality, if ever.

(edited to add Southwest as mkt share leader for Corpus Christi)

LoneStarMike

[Edited 2006-05-07 06:33:51]

 
sccutler
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 36):
Quoting SCCutler (Reply 28):
If the DFW Board wanted WN at DFW, their "offer" of gates would not have contained a bevy of conditions clearly calculated to be utterly incompatible with WN's operation.

Airports are prohibited from placing restrictions on airline operations that specify where they can fly to. How long do you think that would have stood up in court?

Read, carefully, what was written.

If you still can't get it, drop a line.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
cjpark
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 41):
Actually, I think it's more important to let Southwest executives run Southwest Airlines. I know everyone else under the sun seems to think its somehow their purpose to, but it's basic business 101. Southwest runs Southwest; AA runs AA; Nokia runs Nokia; Acme Widget runs Acme Widget.

One might not particularly care for how Acme Widget runs their outfit, and while opinions are nice, they have limits. Become a major shareholder in Acme Widgets; express ones opinions at a shareholders meeting, write the BOD--there are all sorts of expressive and productive avenues. Grumbling that one's opinion (as an outsider) isn't taken as Gospel isn't one of them.

From the stand point of what is best for the community Southwests interests run second to those of the region. The difference between airlines and companies like Nokia is that Nokia does not have to base it's business at a government owned and regulated facility like Southwest. Concerning your opinions that Southwest should be able to run its own company no problem. But they should run the company with the acknowledgment of the right of government regulation.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 43):
Quoting SCCutler (Reply 28):
If the DFW Board wanted WN at DFW, their "offer" of gates would not have contained a bevy of conditions clearly calculated to be utterly incompatible with WN's operation.

Airports are prohibited from placing restrictions on airline operations that specify where they can fly to. How long do you think that would have stood up in court?


Read, carefully, what was written.

If you still can't get it, drop a line.

I understand perfectly after having been taught that airports cannot regulate airlines routes and fares by many people in this forum. The FAA if DFW had been able to find a customer to agree to the terms would have had to reject the limitations set out in the incentives.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
goingboeing
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Sun May 07, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 19):
, you can assign runways based on docking gate, meaning United, International Flights, American Eagle, and Southwest on the west side, and everyone else on the east side. This would shorten taxi times up, and everyone is happy.

Hmm...in one of the other numerous threads, I suggested exactly that...force WN to move to a west side terminal, and let them have the west side ops. Keep AA on the east side. But the rebuttal to that was that this idea would place a burden on AA's operations, due to the large number of flights AA has out of DFW - and that it was "unfair" to burden one airline to accomodate another.

CJpark never answered one of my questions on another thread...that is that if citizens of MIssouri are so important to AA's operations...enough that they would operate MORE daily flights to MCI and STL from DAL than they offered anywhere out of MDW, why aren't the citizens of Missouri important enough to offer a selection of flights from MCI or STL to MDW on AA? After all, Chicago is a much bigger city and can warrant two airports.

I also wonder...should the WA fall, how many airlines (outside or AA) would scramble over to Love Field? Right now, there's that "skylink" thing that could take a passenger flying into DFW on a Northwest flight and shuttle them over to the AA terminal for an international flight (the beauty of interlining)...Skylink beats the hell out of Yellow Cab to make that kind of connection. So I think NWA, DL, US and countless others would be content to consider DFW as their "airport of choice" in the Dallas area. I think only AA is the one who feel that the MUST move a significant portion of their operations over to DAL.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Mon May 08, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 44):
Concerning your opinions that Southwest should be able to run its own company no problem.

Well, I'm pleased that we can finally agree on something...

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 44):
But they should run the company with the acknowledgment of the right of government regulation.

...and as a result of that government regulation, you haven't seen Southwest flying DAL-LAS, DAL-PHX, DAL-BWI, or other non-stops. Now, to the extent that the regulation is flawed/outdated/anti-competitive, repeal of the regulation (Federal law, in this case) is being sought, which won't just benefit Southwest (as many have spun), but any airline that desires to fly from Love.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Mon May 08, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 44):
I understand perfectly after having been taught that airports cannot regulate airlines routes and fares by many people in this forum. The FAA if DFW had been able to find a customer to agree to the terms would have had to reject the limitations set out in the incentives.

Right, so you are saying the DFW offer isn't even legal. That is the point about DFW. They don't want WN at DFW or they would have made a decent offer or at least one that would withstand a legal challenge.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
cjpark
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Mon May 08, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 45):
CJpark never answered one of my questions on another thread...that is that if citizens of MIssouri are so important to AA's operations...enough that they would operate MORE daily flights to MCI and STL from DAL than they offered anywhere out of MDW, why aren't the citizens of Missouri important enough to offer a selection of flights from MCI or STL to MDW on AA? After all, Chicago is a much bigger city and can warrant two airports.

The actions of AA dealing with the flights from Love Field to Missouri are probably more about defending the Dallas market than any so called caring for the people of Missouri.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 46):
...and as a result of that government regulation, you haven't seen Southwest flying DAL-LAS, DAL-PHX, DAL-BWI, or other non-stops. Now, to the extent that the regulation is flawed/outdated/anti-competitive, repeal of the regulation (Federal law, in this case) is being sought, which won't just benefit Southwest (as many have spun), but any airline that desires to fly from Love.

And yet we still do not see Southwest offering flights from DFW yet either, which is my point about accepting the right of Governmental Regulations. Notice that no other airline besides Southwest is pushing the effort to fly long distance from DAL.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 47):
Right, so you are saying the DFW offer isn't even legal. That is the point about DFW. They don't want WN at DFW or they would have made a decent offer or at least one that would withstand a legal challenge.

Then why has DFW gone on record as saying they would build to suit Southwest if they would move to DFW?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dalneighbor
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RE: No Room For WN At DFW

Mon May 08, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 48):
Then why has DFW gone on record as saying they would build to suit Southwest if they would move to DFW?

It's pretty easy for them to say they will spend WN's money. WN would pay for it through fees and lease rates.

How is that more enticing than using what already exists and is paid for at DAL?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging

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