SInGAPORE_AIR
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PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 10:42 pm

Arrests after air upgrade mutiny

A group of irate economy air passengers were arrested after storming the first class cabin of an international flight in mid-air, it has been revealed.

The pilot of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) jet radioed ahead after 14 people upgraded themselves.

Full article at BBC NEWS Online (Manchester)
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Thorben
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 10:47 pm

When the plane landed, 14 of the passengers were arrested on suspicion of endangering an aircraft in flight.

How the f... can you "endanger an aircraft in flight" when you move from the economy to the first class?

I don't think it is right what they did, but charges should be kept real.
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SA7700
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
How the f... can you "endanger an aircraft in flight" when you move from the economy to the first class?

If you "upgrade" yourself from Economy-to First Class; you may as well have the capability to "upgrade" yourself to the cockpit. Just a thought....


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mu

Sat May 06, 2006 10:53 pm

Any idea what flight # this was? There was no fllght# mentioned in the story. Could it have possibly been 719 enroute to IAH? I see that it was a 742 which is what IAH sees on Friday.

Just curious,

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
NAV20
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 10:57 pm

Thorben, it's probably the only charge the law allows.  Smile Can't very well charge people with 'disturbing the peace' if they're not even in the country concerned at the time. In any case they will have diverted the crew from their proper duties, and very possibly the captain will have had to get involved.

I'd imagine that they'll just appear in court Monday and get themselves 'bound over'.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Thorben
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 2):
If you "upgrade" yourself from Economy-to First Class; you may as well have the capability to "upgrade" yourself to the cockpit. Just a thought....

First class is separated by a curtain, the cockpit by a steel door.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Thorben, it's probably the only charge the law allows. Can't very well charge people with 'disturbing the peace' if they're not even in the country concerned at the time. In any case they will have diverted the crew from their proper duties, and very possibly the captain will have had to get involved.

I'd imagine that they'll just appear in court Monday and get themselves 'bound over'.

OK, law is not my thing, especially not foreign laws. But is there any law like when you ride the tube without a ticket that would apply to this case here? Getting a service without paying for it?

In addition, which law has to be applied here? Pakistani law, I would say, since it is a Pakistani registered airplane. And did those things happen in Britisch airspace? If not, where is the legal basis to charge them in Britain?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
NAV20
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
In addition, which law has to be applied here?

Scratching my head now - I think aeroplanes in flight are governed by an international convention (Hague Convention?). Anyway, the legal situation is printed on the back of any international air ticket, haven't got one handy at the moment.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Thorben
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Scratching my head now - I think aeroplanes in flight are governed by an international convention (Hague Convention?). Anyway, the legal situation is printed on the back of any international air ticket, haven't got one handy at the moment.

I think it is the law of the country the plane is registered at. Isn't it like that with ships? A lot of ships are registered in Liberia, IIRC. In order to have Liberian laws applied in case of damages.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
georgiaame
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mu

Sat May 06, 2006 11:30 pm

First a posting about a slob in C class with bare feet. Now this on PIA

You guys are making Delta service and clientele look better and better by the day.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
AMS
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:38 pm

This happens more then people would think. Last year when I flew from Atlanta to Tokyo Narita on DL , and was seated in Business Elite; a person came and sat next to me. He told me that he actually had a seat in economy class. but was trying to get a seat 'upfront'. just before take off the DL flight attandant noticed that he was not supposed to sit there and was asked for him to move to his original seat. 2 weeks later the same situation happened , so I think it happens a lot.

Regards,
AMS
 
SA7700
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
First class is separated by a curtain, the cockpit by a steel door.

On all commercial airplanes?


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
ltbewr
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:54 pm

As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.
 
NAV20
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sat May 06, 2006 11:58 pm

My memory's better than I thought, Thorben!  Smile

Hague Convention 1971 (popularly known as the 'Hijacking Convention'):-

"THE STATES PARTIES to this Convention,

"CONSIDERING that unlawful acts of seizure or exercise of control of aircraft in flight jeopardize the safety of persons and property, seriously affect the operation of air services, and undermine the confidence of the peoples of the world in the safety of civil aviation;"


Actually, they might cop more than a slap on the wrist:-

"Each Contracting State undertakes to make the offence punishable by severe penalties."

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/hague1970.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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longhauler
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 12:03 am

It would appear that upgrading yourself is not a huge law broken, if any.

However, not abiding by the crew's request to return to your seat, is in fact a strict law broken. Whether or not you agree with a crew's request is irrelevant, if they ask you to do something, it is expected that you will.

Although I don't think it is the case here, it is not that far a stretch to make this into a security issue, with close access to the cockpit as an aim.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
NAV20
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 12:07 am

To put it simply; if there'd been any 'sky-marshals' on there those idiots might have got themselves (or someone else) shot.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
raffik
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 12:11 am

Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

If they wanted the comforts of a Business class seat- then they should be expected to PAY for it too.
- Alec
 
deaphen
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 12:13 am

I dont think its a problem of merely upgrading themselves. I am from India, hence i speak for the kind of mentality we have here. I was on a similar Spice Jet flight to Goa from DEL and we were delayed by 6 hours then sat in the plane for another 2. By the time we took off, all the passengers were absolutely irate and were actually extremely rude to the F/A's. Infact a few started threatening them also. See the thing is, most of the people flying are goign to their destination for a specific purpose and the fulfillment of that purpose costs them ALOT if not ALL of their savings. Note here i am talking only about this area of the world. Hence, people feel doubly entitled to do whatever the f they want.

I am pretty sure the peopel upgrading themselves were probably flying for the first or second time and are not attuned to the spirit and attitude onboard. Even though there are no set guide lines, we all knwo there are certain ethics and morals involved.

And i am pretty sure, though only speculation, that they would have caused a huge hue and cry while going to First and then refusing to leave after that. I am sure they were agressive, maybe not in their physical behaviour but in their expression. And we all also know that even the slightest ordeal kind of causes panic in a plane at 35,000 feet!

Anyways, just hope you see it from my point of view.

regards
nitin
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babybus
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 12:33 am

If I read that correctly they actually got into First class while the plane was still on the ground at Islamabad. (?)

There would be little need to upgrade only hours from touch down.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mu

Sun May 07, 2006 12:48 am

My mom is flying PK ORD-MAN-KHI next Saturday (777-200ER)....she' spent a heck of a lot of money to fly in business class...why should other's just get a "free" ride because they don't like what is happening..? If they don't like the fact PK was delayed by four hours for whatever reason, they should take their business (no pun intended) to some other carrier....

Abide by the rules...as simple as that...
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Thorben
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 10):
On all commercial airplanes?

I don't know about all, but more and more I'd say.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
My memory's better than I thought, Thorben!

Hague Convention 1971 (popularly known as the 'Hijacking Convention'):-

"THE STATES PARTIES to this Convention,

"CONSIDERING that unlawful acts of seizure or exercise of control of aircraft in flight jeopardize the safety of persons and property, seriously affect the operation of air services, and undermine the confidence of the peoples of the world in the safety of civil aviation;"

Actually, they might cop more than a slap on the wrist:-

"Each Contracting State undertakes to make the offence punishable by severe penalties."

There were no acts of seizing the aircraft or exercising control of the aircraft. There was nothing that endangered the safety of the aircraft.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
Although I don't think it is the case here, it is not that far a stretch to make this into a security issue, with close access to the cockpit as an aim.

Like you say, it needs to be "made" a security issue, because it isn't one.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
To put it simply; if there'd been any 'sky-marshals' on there those idiots might have got themselves (or someone else) shot.

Sky-marshals are only supposed to act when someone tries to enter the cockpit. Since "upgrading" seems to happen often enough, those sky-marshals should be able to tell the difference.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

Rather like taking something that is more expensive than the thing you paid for.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
Abide by the rules...as simple as that...

Sometimes one needs to question the rules.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
raffik
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Rather like taking something that is more expensive than the thing you paid for.

Unless they paid the difference, it is still stealing
- Alec
 
HS748
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
OK, law is not my thing, especially not foreign laws. But is there any law like when you ride the tube without a ticket that would apply to this case here? Getting a service without paying for it?

Yes, but it would not apply to a foreign airline in foreign airspace whereas the charge of endangering an aircraft does.
 
jacobin777
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Sometimes one needs to question the rules.

yes..but there is a way of doing it..not through anarchy and breaking rules.....the cabin crew (especially the Captain) has the ultimate say in any aircraft...the cabin crew told the pax to go back, they didn't, thus they broke the law...simple as that...
"Up the Irons!"
 
777way
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:21 am

PIA dont have First Class anymore, only Business.
 
zvezda
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

Then many people would not longer be willing to pay for C/F seats, rather expecting them for a Y fare. This is exactly the bind that US carriers have gotten themselves into.
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 1:49 am

Wow. Sucks to be you if you've paid for an economy seat then 'storm' the F section because it is uncomfortable. Welcome to the real world where you get what you pay for 99% of the time.

I've seen a few people try and smuggle themselves into business class on a couple of occassions. Was on a BA flight from BCN-LHR and I was in 1A and boarded behind a chap in 1D. A couple wearing backpacks decided to try their luck and saat beside the guy in 1E and 1F. They probably thought their luck was in when the door shut and nothing was said. However I overheard the crew saying they were down two in coach but had two extras in business class. They checked the boarding passes of the two in 1E & 1F and sent them packing to row 13 or thereabouts.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

No.

You then build some kind of entitlement into any passenger who demand First Class for the price of economy. Also the elite crowd such as AA EXPs who get unlimited freee upgrades then moan that F service isn't up to much even when they get it for free....go figure.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

If they wanted the comforts of a Business class seat- then they should be expected to PAY for it too.

Exactly.  thumbsup 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Rather like taking something that is more expensive than the thing you paid for.

Which is still theft!

Out of interest how many times do you try to upgrade yourself and how often does it work? Somehow I doubt the FAs are as sympathetic....  Yeah sure
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
MANmatt
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 2:46 am

From what my colleagues told me, the aircraft was a state. The passengers just charged into biz. They threatened the cabin crew, and when the pilot came down they also threatened him. They trashed the cabin and it took the cleaners ages to tidy it up. Personally, i think it's a disgrace. Why should people just be allowed to just walk up there and sit there if they didn't pay for it? The 4 pax that were already in biz obivously paid a lot of money to sit there, so why should these idiots just be allowed to walk up and dammed to sit there? Like others have said, you get what you pay for, and if you cannot afford biz then don't expect to be able to sit there!

Matt
 
iairallie
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 3:28 am

Several laws that could be applied to this situation in the US.
It is illegal...
to interfere with crew member duties (crew includes FA's)
to fail to comply with crew member instructions (again that includes the FA's"

and one could argue there was a theft of services. The price of first class international tickets can be in the thousands of dollars.

If reports were acurate that they were physically agressive and threatening crew I'm sure you could apply assault, battery or other charges.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
emiratesa345
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height

I really don't think so. Providing the first/business class service costs considerably more than providing economy service. The food, the FA per passenger ratio, the amenities, the space, the baggage allowance, etc. If you didn't pay for it, you sit in the back. Why should passengers of size/ height get pumped?

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
If they don't like the fact PK was delayed by four hours for whatever reason, they should take their business (no pun intended)

I fail to see the pun?

Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
FlyingColours
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 27):
If reports were acurate that they were physically agressive and threatening crew I'm sure you could apply assault, battery or other charges.

True, I know that technically assault can be classed as making threats and "battery" is when you physically beat someone so usually people are charrged with "Assault & Battery".

Quoting MANmatt (Reply 26):
They threatened the cabin crew, and when the pilot came down they also threatened him.

Actually that is rather worrying, at the first sign of any disturbance in the cabin the FD should remain sealed (although it may not be a hijack situation - or a diversionary tactic) as the captain is exposing himself.

As far as the Air Navigation Orders go if the crew issue a lawful &/or saftey related command then the person it was issued to is expected to abide by it. So technically although being told to return to the economy cabin was not a saftey command it was a lawful command as it upheld the law of Pakistan (AFAIK) as they would have been breaking a law (theft of service) and thus break one small section of the big ANO.

If the situation got that bad up there then they should have diverted, simple. If passengers are getting irate in the air and being abusive to crew then thats it, game over get down and get them off!

I didn't hear anything yesterday though when we got back into Manchester.

Phil
FlyingColours
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AR385
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 3:53 am

In 1998, I flew LAB's A-310-300 MIA-MAO-VVI on busines class (not that it was anything to write home about) but the section was virtually empty.

After we took off, and were over Cuba the cabin crew started moving mother's with babies from economy to C, an assortment of different men who definitely looked like mob-type guys and a couple of hookers. How do I know they were hookers? Well, put two and two together.

Last time I ever flew international on LAB, except for a flight to GRU in a 727-200, also on busness. However, on this flight, the service was great.
 
ACYYC
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 4:35 am

The main issue, and what is frightening about this is that a group of fourteen passengers organised and executed an action on board a commercial airliner. You just can't have an organised hostile takeover, or usurpation of cabin authority on board a plane (especially post 9-11) and not expect to have the book thrown at you, even if it is for something as simple as a bigger seat. Extremely dangerous and terribly unwise. They need to be made an example of.
 
G-CIVP
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 4:42 am

Serves them right being arrested. It must have been distressing for the flight attendants and other passengers.
 
RIXrat
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 4:44 am

Been on flights where some teeny bopper from Economy snuk into Business and plopped himself beside me after the flight departed and proceeded to eat his two Big Whoppers which were already going stale. I assume you all know that a cold fast food burger smells like s*it. The F/A prompty ejected him and he gave her the finger, but returned to his seat.

On the other hand, my 87 year old mother was tortured in the middle seat by the girth of a man next to her and there was no way to put the arm rest down for take off. The F/A, with a smile, told her to come come along and settled her in the C class.

Two different stories. Two different times.
 
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ASMD11
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

If they wanted the comforts of a Business class seat- then they should be expected to PAY for it too.

Couldn't agree more. Or pay for an upgrade before departure. Or like was already said, if there was an upgrade program in place for FF then use that. But what has happened here is theft, pure and simple, they took something (in this case a service provided by an airline) that they did not pay for.
 
deltagator
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 8):
First a posting about a slob in C class with bare feet. Now this on PIA

You guys are making Delta service and clientele look better and better by the day.

Oh look the good doctor goes off topic to trash Delta whenever he gets a chance.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Bohlman
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
First class is separated by a curtain, the cockpit by a steel door.

But as any pilot will tell you, what's right next to the steel door? The lavatory. You're fooling yourself if you think that they've reinforced that, because even if there's a circuit panel on the other side of that panel (which is the most any airplane will have), you can still shoot, cut, batter your way through that.

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 28):

I fail to see the pun?

It's an airline. "Take your business elsewhere" is exactly what they do: they go places.
I'm not pro-Boeing or pro-Airbus, I'm pro-crew all the way.
 
KJFK31L
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 5):
But is there any law like when you ride the tube without a ticket that would apply to this case here? Getting a service without paying for it

This is group mutiny, not one person deciding that he/she deserves a better seat in first class. Group disobedience can escalate very quickly into violent conflicts which can hinder the proper functioning of the aircraft.

The pilot should not have had to "radio ahead"- it is just one more thing he needs to take care of/worry about.

Matt
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going.
 
stealthpilot
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 7:07 am

What horrible behavior!!!!

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 13):
It would appear that upgrading yourself is not a huge law broken, if any.
However, not abiding by the crew's request to return to your seat, is in fact a strict law broken.

Absolutely true. The fact that people went to Biz class is not the biggest concern here. But the fact that they created a scene and didn’t leave when asked by the crew is a cause for concern.

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

 bouncy  I kind of agree with you but like I said, the fact that people sat in biz class isn’t the main concern. On an SA flight from GRU - JNB I was chatting with the man next to me, and halfway through the flight he noticed there were empty biz class seats so we sat there (just used the seat, no food/entertainment etc) but didn’t hide from the FA. When the lights were going to come on the FA told us we should move back in about 15 minutes and we did.
Had we refused (some PK pax threatened the captain!!) then I believe the crew are completely in their right to call ahead and have security meet them on the ground.

Quoting Deaphen (Reply 16):
See the thing is, most of the people flying are goign to their destination for a specific purpose and the fulfillment of that purpose costs them ALOT

Hehehe I think all people flying are going to their destination for a specific purpose. Anyway I get what you mean, but it’s still no excuse for that kind of behavior.
eP007
eP007
 
malaysia
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 8:37 am

Reminds me of the time when Hijackers tried to storm the front of the plane and could not find the cockpit cause it was a 747 and the pilots already escaped by rope in time.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mu

Sun May 07, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
As this was a LONG flight, no wonder people would want to move into the biz/first class seats. Perhaps if they had a program to upgrade selected frequent flyers, at the check in or gate when they have a large number of those seats available, then you may have prevented this kind of problem. It would also give PIA some good public relations with those lucky pax. You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

Note that on United/AA etc, North American/Carribean upgrade rules are different from other International.
- North American/Carribean: Frequent flyers are upgraded if seats are available in First/Biz in order of priority.
- Other International: Frequent flyers are upgraded if economy is overbooked, in order of priority. Free seats in Biz/First do not mean automatic upgrade for frequent flyers.
In either case, we're talking flyers who have probably spent a lot of money with the airline being upgraded.

If economy is full but NOT overbooked, why upgrade people for no reason? The crew and plane can handle a full economy cabin, regardless of empty or full biz cabin.

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
This happens more then people would think. Last year when I flew from Atlanta to Tokyo Narita on DL , and was seated in Business Elite; a person came and sat next to me. He told me that he actually had a seat in economy class. but was trying to get a seat 'upfront'. just before take off the DL flight attandant noticed that he was not supposed to sit there and was asked for him to move to his original seat. 2 weeks later the same situation happened , so I think it happens a lot.

Seen it happen plenty of times. They try to look innocent as can be. Nowadays this happens more often during the flight given the accurate counting that goes on prior to pushback.

I'm not often a snitch, but this sort of thing pisses me off. I will pretend to go to the lav and innocently ask an F/A where that pax came from?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
9252fly
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
You could also bump up 'persons of size' or tall in height.

I should start eating more!

Quoting Raffik (Reply 20):
Unless they paid the difference, it is still stealing



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 22):
yes..but there is a way of doing it..not through anarchy and breaking rules.....the cabin crew (especially the Captain) has the ultimate say in any aircraft...the cabin crew told the pax to go back, they didn't, thus they broke the law...simple as that...



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
Then many people would not longer be willing to pay for C/F seats, rather expecting them for a Y fare. This is exactly the bind that US carriers have gotten themselves into.

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wdleiser
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 15):
Ii think it's disgraceful that passengers who book and pay for an economy service, feel that they can just stroll, or in this case, "storm" their way into a Business class cabin and expect a level of service they haven't paid for.

It's as good as going into a shop and taking something, walking out and not paying.

If they wanted the comforts of a Business class seat- then they should be expected to PAY for it too.

I believe a better way to word it is like so: It is the same as going to a sporting event, paying for crappy seats way high up, then walking down to the field level club seats with the best view.



I myself have done this before on a CO flight between IAH and EWR, I was 10, a UM and just kinda sat down in first. I was the last to board as I demanded McDonalds before hand.... they only had Wendy's though. The FA wasnt really paying attention to me, so I just sat down in CO's first product on their DC-10's. It was fun.
 
ktachiya
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting MANmatt (Reply 26):
Personally, i think it's a disgrace. Why should people just be allowed to just walk up there and sit there if they didn't pay for it?

Yes, as for the old mother being bumped into C class, that is completely reasonable. It can interfere with her health conditions too.

The problem is that if I ever saw 14 people storm into business class when I PAID for business class and sat there, that would completely irritate me. What right do they have to do that right? Then virtually anyone on the plane has a right to and it sets a horrible precedent.

I saw two hippy looking teenagers coming in and setting in the seat in front of me in JL C class last time. I went straight back to talk to the FA's, and managed to get them out.

As many people have said. You get what you paid for. If I paid for a Y class ticket, I am expecting Y class service and seat-pitch. If you can't accept the reality, then don't board a plane.
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
Scrappy74
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
This happens more then people would think.

To lighten the tone a little, anyone remember the Seinfeld episode where Elaine tries to bump herself up to First?

"They have COOKIES up there!"  cheeky 

It DID bother me a tad though that they showed a SW a/c for the exterior...as we all know there's nothing close to a first class section on those birds.
"These days, I wish I was 6 again..."
 
ASApilot
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 10:55 am

Well, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this post was 14 people all of the sudden moving to the front of the PVC pipe with 50 seats in it that I fly (CRJ-100). That could cause a pretty bad problem, but I guess this was a bigger aircraft anyway. But, that would be endangering an aircraft on a smaller plane. (Not to suggest that ASA has first class or anything.)
 
NAV20
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
There were no acts of seizing the aircraft or exercising control of the aircraft. There was nothing that endangered the safety of the aircraft

They were 'exercising control' of the First-Class cabin. For proof, they stayed there till the aircraft landed. As to 'safety', from the press report, the Captain came back to talk to them and they abused him as well. In addition, with 14 people rushing the front cabin, the first thing that would have happened in flying terms would have been a sudden and unexplained trim change.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 19):
Sky-marshals are only supposed to act when someone tries to enter the cockpit.

Think that through a little. If any hijackers reached the cockpit it would be too late. Sky-marshals will have been trained to react immediately to any perceived threat. A large number of people suddenly rushing forward could very well be interpreted as a 'threat'.

[Edited 2006-05-07 04:23:24]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
OlegShv
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 11:17 am

This is really some wild behavior. Or perhaps, I should have said misbehavior. Those passengers that stormed the Biz cabin should definitely be held accountable.

Do airlines now have so called "black lists" of roudy passengers? If so, I suppose those folks should be added there so that they would not be able to book anymore tickets at all.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 49):
They were 'exercising control' of the First-Class cabin. For proof, they stayed there till the aircraft landed. As to 'safety', from the press report, the Captain came back to talk to them and they abused him as well. In addition, with 14 people rushing the front cabin, the first thing that would have happened in flying terms would have been a sudden and unexplained trim change.

…they threatened the well being of their fellow passengers. Might as well call them terrorists and execute them.
 
jepstein
Posts: 63
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RE: PIA Economy Passengers Storm First Class In Mutiny

Sun May 07, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting AMS (Reply 9):
He told me that he actually had a seat in economy class. but was trying to get a seat 'upfront'. just before take off the DL



Quoting Scrappy74 (Reply 47):
...Seinfeld episode...

Just what I was thinking Scrappy.  bigthumbsup 

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