BWOOD
Topic Author
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 6:20 am

Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Mon May 08, 2006 8:52 am

I want to know what everybody thinks about this idea. I am going to Saint Louis University's Parks College in the fall. My major is going to be aviation science. I will leave the school with my private, commercial, insturment and multi engine ratings. Also I will get my CFI and CFII. I figure that I can get hired on as an instructor or work for a regional airline after I get out of school and build up time so that I can eventually get a job with a major airline. I want to know first off if anyone who is a graduate of Parks can give me their opinion on the experience. I also want to know what people have heard about Parks College good or bad.

I also want to know if in general people who graduate from public or private univesities that are not totally aviation oriented are getting hired and respected by the aviation community.

I know that Embry-Riddle is the Harvard of flight schools and that those students I am sure get hired but what about the other schools. University of North Dakota, Central Missouri State and other smaller and less know schools all have graduates who want to be professional pilots. How do these graduates fair in the process of getting a good job and keeping it.

I am refering to the pilot degress and not the mechanics or air traffic control jobs. Please give me your opinions and be honest. Even if I might not want to hear it I am looking for all kinds of input on this idea.

I know that in aviation the experince is what matters and not the degree but is it a good idea to go to a lesser known aviation program that is not the main focus of the college and is that a good way to start. You have to get the experience from somewhere so why not an accredited flight school even if it is not Embry-Riddle and is Arizona State instead. (No offense to ASU grads just an example). How does it compare to just going through an instructor and getting everything up to your ATP. Do airlines smile or frown on these lesser known schools of flight and do these people get hired?

Your help with this topic is greatly appreciated!
 
modesto2
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Mon May 08, 2006 11:01 am

Quoting BWOOD (Thread starter):
I also want to know if in general people who graduate from public or private univesities that are not totally aviation oriented are getting hired and respected by the aviation community.

Last year, I graduated from UCLA with a bachelor of science in mechanical engineering. I just got hired by a regional carrier.

Am I respected by the aviation community? I hope so!

Did I get hired? Yes.

After college, I went to ATP flight school and got all my ratings and then instructed for them. It all worked out very well and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't change a thing. I wanted a well-rounded college experience with rigorous academics and many social opportunities. However, I also wanted to be a pilot. So, I took full advantage of my amazing college experience and then learned to fly afterwards.

My attitude? I can learn to fly at any point in my life. But my college experience can only be completely embraced at a specific age and time. While in college, I participated in organizations and activities that I could not experience post-graduation. Conversely, aviation and flying will be available for an extended period of time. That's my approach but it may not work for others. Good luck!
 
av8rphx
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Mon May 08, 2006 11:11 am

Get your degree in basket weaving if you have to, but do not get an aviation degree... you'll want something to fall back on after your first furlough.
 
BWOOD
Topic Author
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 3:48 am

Come on guys. Let me know what you think. I also am not refering to engineering degrees but thanks Modesto2 for your post. I have also heard of someone getting their engineering degree and flying for the airlines. I know that this forum can talk so lets hear what everybody thinks.
 
Mir
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 2):
Get your degree in basket weaving if you have to, but do not get an aviation degree... you'll want something to fall back on after your first furlough.

I hear that basket weaving isn't going to get you many places either.....

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
roseflyer
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Bwood (Reply 3):
I also am not refering to engineering degrees but thanks Modesto2 for your post. I have also heard of someone getting their engineering degree and flying for the airlines.

I know you are not referring to engineering degrees, but they are a good decision if you want to be a pilot. Getting a degree in mechanical or aeronautical engineering will require you to work hard in college, but it is an impressive thing to have on a resume. Additionally you have a career that pays well to fall back on. Getting a job as a pilot is mostly about how many hours you have, but a good education will not hurt you at all. And when I say good education, I suggest getting a major rather than just a minor in another field. It can pay off in the end. Also if you get a degree in something like mechanical engineering, you can get a job out of college to pay off your debt while simutaneously working on your flight training. It will help your cash flow work out a lot better since so many pilots get deeply in debt during their initial flight training and college that they struggle to get out with today's low salaries.

In summary, don't rule out a major like engineering if it interests you. However the most important thing you do in life is enjoy it. If you like figuring out how all the different systems involved in planes and the world around you function, then an engineering degree is good, but if not, then don't wast your time with it. No one can tell you what to do, but they can and always will offer advice.

[Edited 2006-05-08 21:21:48]
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
malaysia
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 2):
Get your degree in basket weaving if you have to, but do not get an aviation degree... you'll want something to fall back on after your first furlough.

True, my mistake, I cannot fallback with my Aviation Management Degree and
sometimes it makes me look like the idiot at the airport. Many airport workers even make fun of my degree and ask stupid questions like "why are you still here? why are you working at the airport? should you be doing something better? Why are you not my manager? Why are you not the boss? Why do you still touch a bag?"

It makes me upset once in a while, but it was not a ticket out.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
meister808
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 4:13 am

As I get to the end of my time at the University of North Dakota (commercial aviation/aviation management double major), I don't think I would change a thing. I take Modesto2's attitude of "I only have one chance at having a good time in college" as "Sweet, I can fly planes for class and get a degree (or 2) doing it." Is there anything wrong with going someplace else and getting a degree in, say, Biology or Engineering or Music and then getting flight training? No, of course not. That said, if I am going to school for 4 years and spending as much as it is to get a college education, I want to be doing something in class that interests me. Engineering or Biology classes aren't what I am passionate about. International and Long Range Navigation or Airline Management or Flight Physiology classes are what interest me, and I get to go to class and learn about that stuff. In addition, I can be a much more informed professional pilot with the knowledge that I get from that stuff. Can you read a book and get a good idea about hypoxia? Of course. I get what I consider to be much better training(making me a safer pilot) from an ex-NASA Aeromedical Physician, in class and through altitude chamber 'flights' that are mandatory for the completion of the class.

So do what you want, and go to school for what you want. If you are really motivated to learn engineering, then go to engineering school and get your flight training after you graduate. If aviation is really what interests you, I can't imagine what would be a more rewarding college experience than going to school where you can fly airplanes for class and in a town where you are more apt to hear people discussing ILS minimums than American Idol in the checkout line at the grocery store.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth I

Tue May 09, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting BWOOD (Thread starter):
I want to know first off if anyone who is a graduate of Parks can give me their opinion on the experience. I also want to know what people have heard about Parks College good or bad.

Congratulations! I'm graduating on the 20th and I don't want to leave. Overall, I've had a good experience. Although, I have worked very hard to take full advantage of every opportunity I've been offered.

Stick with the flying, be prepared to work HARD, don't slack off, and you will do fine. Students who get in trouble here are the ones who aren't willing to put in the required time into flying.

If you won't, don't worry, the school is still open over the summer.  Smile

My advice, do the Aviation Science AND double major in something like finance, accounting, engineering (if you really want to), anything really, just something tangible that can lead to other jobs.

You are lucky, Saint Louis University has over 80 majors to choose from.

That way you can still do all the Av Sci internships that lead to jobs (VERY important) and you will have something substantial to fall back on. The Av Sci degree does give you some good education into aviation and how to be a safe pilot.

As for name, I haven't heard anyone not liking our grads. That's not something I can say about other schools.

However, most people know us as Parks College not Saint Louis University, so make sure that's on the resume.

PM if you have anything specific you want to know, I'd be more than happy to help you out.

Quoting BWOOD (Thread starter):
I know that Embry-Riddle is the Harvard of flight schools

I kinda want to laugh at that one....flame away, but I've heard some, lets say interesting things from Riddle grads.

However, to be be fair, one of the best pilots I know graduated from there as well.

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 7):
So do what you want, and go to school for what you want.

Very well said! I agree wholeheartedly. Enjoy and take advantage of your college years. Don't study something because its the "right" thing to study or will "get you a job." More than likely, you will hate that job when you get it and will be looking for something else to do the moment you start.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 6):
I cannot fallback with my Aviation Management Degree

Could you please explain this further? Yes, on face value its not worth much, but aviation like anything else is about who you know not what you know.

My advice, use the "management" end of the degree and get an MBA, thats really the only reason I did it. The only thing I need now is a chance and the time to get one (once I graduate). Then you will have a "real" degree as some here might think.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth I

Tue May 09, 2006 5:08 am

Double Post - Ignore Me

[Edited 2006-05-08 22:10:32]
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
db373
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:53 am

I was offered a full scholarship into ERAU, but was forced to turn them down after finding out that the only way to pursue a dual major would be to attend both ERAU and a junior college in the area.

After speaking with many pilots, I have been informed that this was the right decision. ERAU is awesome if you want to fly, but from a career standpoint it will do nothing for you if you can't find a job in the aviation world.

I still keep in touch with an advisor at the college, however. He has informed me that as long as I keep my grades up, I'd be a shoe in for the distance learning program or the fast-track program that they offer. These are my plans for the future.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
pilottim747
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 8:11 am

Well said Meister808. I'm happy with my decision to get an aviation degree as well. I came to UND to become a pilot but I found out its not the career I wanted. At the same time, however, I feel in love with Air Traffic Control and now I'm extremely happy with my new major in ATC.

I love learning about aviation in my classes. Its easy to motivate yourself when you're interested in the subject and you know you will use the information after you graduate. If you've got another subject area that you love, go for a degree in that subject.

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
BWOOD
Topic Author
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 9:09 am

Hey TheGreatChecko thanks for the advice and input. I have heard mixed things about Parks so its good to hear from a soon to be graduate who loved the program. I think that the problem with Parks is that some of the students pick av science because it is interesting but don't know the whole story of the aviation world and how it works. This can be intimidating when you find out. For example hearing about all of the pilots that have been laid off and stuggling airlines. Also flying is not for everyone and some people get tired of it. This can make people bitter if they end up with something that they did not expect.

I love aviation and want to make a career out of it. I have been around the airlines for a while since my dad worked for TWA/AA here in St. Louis as a mechanic for seven years. I wish TWA was still around so I could have a solid airline job in town but o'well. He got laidoff so I know what the industry is like but there is always going to be a need for pilots. I know off two recent Parks grads who are working for regional carriers and so it is obvious that the jobs are out there.

I am transfering in from a community college so I will be there three years and won't do the practicum program to avoid a fourth. It is really expensive but my dad has a plane so I know why they charge what they do. I am not interested in the engineering as a major but if I could do another major I would not rule out business or something that ties into the av science degree. TheGreatChecko I would like to know more about the program from a current student so any more info or advice you could give would be awesome.


Thanks to all who posted and keep the comments coming.
 
mikkel777
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
Quoting BWOOD (Thread starter):
I know that Embry-Riddle is the Harvard of flight schools

I kinda want to laugh at that one....flame away, but I've heard some, lets say interesting things from Riddle grads.

I'd stay far away from ERAU. It is by far the most overrated university institution I've ever come across. I've seen so many stupid things done by students and instructors there, it actually maked me worried.

Get a degree in something that you like, and take flight training at a place that gives you a lot more for your money than ERAU.
 
bond007
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Bwood (Reply 12):
I love aviation and want to make a career out of it.

Then do an aviation degree.

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 2):
but do not get an aviation degree... you'll want something to fall back on after your first furlough.

Well, how many of you with degrees actually do work related to the subject?
You can fall back on an aviation management degree just as easy as you can become a pilot with a biology degree.

I'm working with people that did a degree just for the heck of it ... nothing personal, but I'd rather have an aviation degree that I worked hard for and enjoyed, rather than a psychology degree that I'd never use if I lived to be 200 years old....and had no intention of using.

I say do a degree with a subject that you enjoy, and will study, and will interest you.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
BWOOD
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:57 am

I guess my biggest concern is the cost of the degree. It is going to take over $50,000 in loans to pay off my schooling. I know that jobs in aviation are limited and it takes a few years to make good money when you find a job. Do you think that its worth spending that kind of money given the situation with the industry? Can I pay it back on a first officer or part time instuctor pay scale?

That is what worries me the most, the financial side of it. I also have heard that Parks has lost its reputation in the airline business due to restructuring of the program and cuts in the degrees offered by the school. I know that Saint Louis University's name is attached but will I be respected. I guess I should not be any worse off than someone with a non-aviation degree and their ratings. Despite the money and industry issues I would have a degree in the field that I want to study, and that is the best way to go I think.
 
visakow
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):
Well, how many of you with degrees actually do work related to the subject?
You can fall back on an aviation management degree just as easy as you can become a pilot with a biology degree.

I'm working with people that did a degree just for the heck of it ... nothing personal, but I'd rather have an aviation degree that I worked hard for and enjoyed, rather than a psychology degree that I'd never use if I lived to be 200 years old....and had no intention of using.

I say do a degree with a subject that you enjoy, and will study, and will
interest you.

.

I have to agree with this one. Granted I will also have a ton of avionics experience and could just as readily work for a major defense contractor/sub-contracter like Lockmart, Boeing or Raytheon if I decide not to go the airline route.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Bwood (Reply 15):
Do you think that its worth spending that kind of money given the situation with the industry?

Its either that or the Air Force. One way or another you will pay with money or time.

Quoting Bwood (Reply 15):
Can I pay it back on a first officer or part time instuctor pay scale?

Not entirely, but you wouldn't be the first person to have to do it.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 1:05 pm

Any degree with "Aviation" in the name is fairly worthless...Why?

-From an academic standpoint, it doesn't provide any advantage in pilot hiring, as anyone will tell you that any 4 year degree is sufficient.

-A "BS in Aviation Science" from the typical aviation school has about as much science to it as a home economics or communication degree, so it's not a technical degree in terms of how ExxonMobil, WalMart or Citibank would view it.

-The typically strong aviation schools do have a good informal network within most airlines, so that helps, but when the furloughs come...you will be cashing people out at Home Depot with that degree.

-Dont consider the military unless you are willing to serve and be an officer first, and a pilot (maybe...) second.
 
777STL
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):

I'm working with people that did a degree just for the heck of it ... nothing personal, but I'd rather have an aviation degree that I worked hard for and enjoyed, rather than a psychology degree that I'd never use if I lived to be 200 years old....and had no intention of using.

You're comparing two rather worthless degrees though, psychology and aviation science. Kind of a meaningless comparison.

I recommend a degree in something that actually has a future, business possibly, or engineering, though that may be a pain in the ass with flight training as well.

Look at it this way, say you get an aviation science degree.....

You make it out into the regionals, maybe to a major and the economy takes a dump and you lose your job. Just as in 2001 and 2002, no major airlines are hiring and the economy is in a recession. Now, do you really want a piece of paper that says you're only qualified to fly airplanes, or do you want a piece of paper that has you qualified in something else entirely?

Major airlines don't give two shits what your degree is in, having a degree in aviation science isn't going to give you a leg up over someone with a degree in accounting, for example. The main idea is that you have a degree, thereby proving that you know how to study, focus, and have motivation and resolve.
PHX based
 
bond007
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 7:45 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 19):
You're comparing two rather worthless degrees though, psychology and aviation science.

I guess we'll agree to disagree  Smile

An Aviation degree is hardly worthless. The chances are he will try and use it for an aviation job....he's never gonna use a psychology degree for anything relevant to psychology.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 18):
Any degree with "Aviation" in the name is fairly worthless...Why?

-From an academic standpoint, it doesn't provide any advantage in pilot hiring, as anyone will tell you that any 4 year degree is sufficient.

So it's not worthless - it's the same as any other degree except he did it because he enjoyed it, rather than the heck of it.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 19):
Now, do you really want a piece of paper that says you're only qualified to fly airplanes, or do you want a piece of paper that has you qualified in something else entirely?

It doesn't only say that. It's a degree and for the same reason some airlines don't care what degree it is - most other industries don't care either.

I'd also challenge those that say it doesn't make a difference in the aviation world. When times are tough, and/if you are a borderline candidate up against another guy - you bet many companies will look at your aviation degree. Maybe not the airlines, but since I hire people myself, I can tell you it does matter. If 2 guys are similar in resumes, and one has an aviation degree ...who am I gonna hire?

In the non-aviation world, in most cases a degree is also a degree ....it works both ways.



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 8):
My advice, use the "management" end of the degree and get an MBA, thats really the only reason I did it. The only thing I need now is a chance and the time to get one (once I graduate). Then you will have a "real" degree as some here might think.

Ill only see if an MBA is worth it if an Airline pays for my tuition for it like those big International Carriers that send people off to get MBAs.

wasting more dollars on an MBA will not prove me anything. I am taking Accounting now, cause so many new aviation management jobs require something in Finance, Accounting, Auditing, SAP, etc all the stuff you dont get in Aviation Management School.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 13):
I'd stay far away from ERAU. It is by far the most overrated university institution I've ever come across

A few nitwits doesn't make a great name like ERAU bad at all. I graduated from ERAU and it makes a hell of a difference, especially with airline ops. Aeronautical Science, if you pay attention, puts you ahead of many experienced airline pilots, as shown by the 8 of us flying for Turkish Airlines, we always receieve compliments on our procedures, our general knowledge of aviation and our background knowledge of what's going on in the community, all of those things developed at ERAU for us. Sure it may be expensive and it may not work out for some people, but I am strongly against people just learning to fly at any old place then jumping into airline ops...we got extensive aerodynamics, weather, airline ops and performance training and the MOST important training i got at ERAU was about aviation safety, you don't find that kind of high quality lecture so whether you go to ERAU or UND or anywhere, you should go to a place that offers it all, you owe it to your passengers in an emergency to be a top notch aviator.

I am not dissing FBOs, i used to work at one, but i would recommend FBO flying for people who don't want to go airline...

flame away...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 22):
Aeronautical Science, if you pay attention, puts you ahead of many experienced airline pilots,

That's the key point that many are missing. Especially in management, you are way ahead of someone who has an accounting degree, when it comes to aviation knowledge. They'll be learning much of the stuff that you already know!

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 21):
Finance, Accounting, Auditing, SAP, etc all the stuff you dont get in Aviation Management School.

Actually, of course the aviation colleges know this. That's why a business core often takes up 30-40% of an aviation management degree.

From Embry-riddle:

Business Core
BA 311 Marketing 3
BA 312 Managerial Accounting 3
BA 314 Human Resource Management 3
BA 317 Organizational Behavior 3
BA 320 Business Information Systems 3
BA 325 Social Responsibility and Ethics
in Management 3
BA 332 Corporate Finance I 3
BA 335 International Business 3
BA 390 Business Law 3
BA 420 Management of Production
and Operations 3
BA 436 Strategic Management 3
EC 315 Managerial Economics


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
malaysia
Posts: 2615
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
Actually, of course the aviation colleges know this. That's why a business core often takes up 30-40% of an aviation management degree.

Thats the problem! The Opening and Human Resources wants 30 to 40% in FULL ACCOUNTING or FINANCE, not broad orientation courses about Finance or Accounting. They want over 20-40 credits in a specific business field to prove that you can do the job, not just some peachtree accounting for a small FBO.

What would have to happen would be a Airline Accounting Degree, which is Aviation and complete Accounting to let you sit for a CPA exam. If your accounting and finance load in the aviation degree is not enough for a CPA sit in, then it means you have to go back to school again.
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
bond007
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Tue May 09, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 24):
not just some peachtree accounting for a small FBO.

Hmmm..I don't see Peachtree accounting in my list of the core business subjects??

If you want to be a CPA, then take an accounting degree....although I wouldn't, I'd just study for my CPA.

...hey, I'm sitting out....had my 2 cents  Wink


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
BWOOD
Topic Author
Posts: 31
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:07 am

How can anyone say that aviation science is not a real degree. I have seen the cirriculum and heard from people who took the classes say that it is hard and intense. I agree with those of you who say that it will put you ahead of anyone with a generalized degree. If it wasn't legitamate then why do alot schools and programs exist. The problem in my mind is not the degree or the schools but the industry. When the industry struggles everything aviation looks bad from taking a vacation to a degree in av science. How could it not put you ahead of somebody with a communications degree or philosophy degree? It is directly related coursework to your future career.


The industry is what makes the degree weak not the programs or schools. Just like if they were laying off thousands of accountants then that degree field would not look to good to major in either. I have heard that by 2010 there will be a shortage of pilots due to all of the veteran captains and older pilots retitring. Also several places have said that it is a growing field. Aviation is a roller coaster ride but if you can stay on and work through it then it will pay off in the end. Also the airlines are not the only job option. There are always going to be needs for flight instructors, corperate pilots, and pilots for the government and businesses. I also plan to see if I can double major or at least get a minor in something so that just in case I have a back up plan.

Some good advice everybody so keep it coming.
 
777STL
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Bwood (Reply 26):
How can anyone say that aviation science is not a real degree. I have seen the cirriculum and heard from people who took the classes say that it is hard and intense. I agree with those of you who say that it will put you ahead of anyone with a generalized degree. If it wasn't legitamate then why do alot schools and programs exist. The problem in my mind is not the degree or the schools but the industry. When the industry struggles everything aviation looks bad from taking a vacation to a degree in av science. How could it not put you ahead of somebody with a communications degree or philosophy degree? It is directly related coursework to your future career.

I didn't say it wasn't a "real" degree, but it's rather useless for anything other than flying. That's my opinion, before any rabid ERAU students attack me.

Plenty of people in the industry support that assertion as well.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 24):
Thats the problem! The Opening and Human Resources wants 30 to 40% in FULL ACCOUNTING or FINANCE, not broad orientation courses about Finance or Accounting. They want over 20-40 credits in a specific business field to prove that you can do the job, not just some peachtree accounting for a small FBO.

Exactly. Those broad introduction courses in the aviation management program above are nothing more than to familiarize you with the basic concepts. Not enough to leave you qualified in any subfield, unless you take more classes as you noted.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
It doesn't only say that. It's a degree and for the same reason some airlines don't care what degree it is - most other industries don't care either.

I disagree, a lot of industries do care what your degree is in. Who hires someone for an engineering or accounting position when all they have is a basic degree or an aviation science degree. You say an aviation degree matters in the aviation industry, well that works both ways. If I own a business, who am I going to hire for an entry level position, someone with a general business degree or someone with an aviation science degree? Or, let me put it like this, who has the leg up?
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 27):
You say an aviation degree matters in the aviation industry, well that works both ways. If I own a business, who am I going to hire for an entry level position, someone with a general business degree or someone with an aviation science degree? Or, let me put it like this, who has the leg up?

I don't necessarily disagree, but the initial question is about someone who WANTS a career in the aviation industry. Personally, if I own a business, and I do, and I'm hiring for an entry level position, I really don't care that candidate has a general business degree, a science degree, or an aviation degree. They all have certain core subjects that will be useful in a 'basic' position. The personality of the candidate is just as important if not more.

Now...if I own an aviation business, and I might do  Wink, then sure I'd probably take the guy with the aviation degree, rather than the CPA, or biology degree (assuming everything else is similar...personality etc.). It gives me a sense that the person might actually enjoy working in aviation.

IMO, and I may be wrong in my way of thinking, but I actually put a fair amount of admiration/credibility (whatever you want to call it) on somebody who takes a degree in a subject that they actually have real interest in, and want a career in that area...rather than the 'business degree', that really teaches little of what happens in the real world, and is taken just for the reasons many here mention (a good 'fallback'!).

...another 2 cents  Smile

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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
An Aviation degree is hardly worthless. The chances are he will try and use it for an aviation job....he's never gonna use a psychology degree for anything relevant to psychology.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 18):
Any degree with "Aviation" in the name is fairly worthless...Why?

-From an academic standpoint, it doesn't provide any advantage in pilot hiring, as anyone will tell you that any 4 year degree is sufficient.

So it's not worthless - it's the same as any other degree except he did it because he enjoyed it, rather than the heck of it.

You should have copied the rest of my quote. The aviation degree is great as long the (pilot) who has it is still in the airline business. The point is that that degree is worthless outside the industry.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
From Embry-riddle:

Business Core
BA 311 Marketing 3
BA 312 Managerial Accounting 3
BA 314 Human Resource Management 3
BA 317 Organizational Behavior 3
BA 320 Business Information Systems 3
BA 325 Social Responsibility and Ethics
in Management 3
BA 332 Corporate Finance I 3
BA 335 International Business 3
BA 390 Business Law 3
BA 420 Management of Production
and Operations 3
BA 436 Strategic Management 3
EC 315 Managerial Economics

A list of course names says nothing about content. The business based degrees are probably equal to other state university counterparts; it's the "technical/B.S." degrees that are a joke (like BS "Aviation Science"), UNLess its a true, ABET accredited engineering degree.
 
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 29):
The point is that that degree is worthless outside the industry.

OK, I guess we'll disagree on that one!

IMO no 3-4 year degree is worthless in any industry.

In reality, it's the 'business degrees' that are worth less (but not worthless). More than enough 'business' is taught in the more specialized degrees, and they are taken by people who are actually interested in the subject and become educated in a specific skill....that's what's needed in the US workforce, not 10 million people that know a little about nothing.


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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 4:04 am

I really disagree with you EssentialPowr. An aviation degree is just as worthless outside of aviation as a communications degree is worhtless outside of a radio or news station. Just as much as a biology degree is worhtless outside of research and people/animal care. Just as much as a zoology degree is worthless outside of a major zoo. Just as much as a computer science degree is worthless out computers. Everybody in my mind should go to school and apply their degree to their career but many people don't. They put their degree on their application and for alot of jobs just having a college degree is good enough. It doesn't matter if it is in aviation or economics. Obviously accounting, business and economic degrees have a wider range of jobs that you can get but I think that a business degree and others are so general that you could apply them anywhere. Aviation degrees are really specialized but I really think that they can put you ahead in the aviation world. Any degree outside of its career field is technically "worthless" but just having a degree can land you a good job no matter what you majored in.


I also think that going with an instructor and not with a school can lead to its own issues. You have school work to do plus flying to do and your school work has nothing to do with flying. That can get hard to juggle. Plus who knows how good your instructor is? At colleges with av science degrees the program and instructors are FAA certified. Now you can find some losers there to but you chances are better to get a better instructor and learning experience at a school setting than elsewhere. Also I have not heard of many pilots who pursue flying separate from their degree that get their instuctor ratings. When you come out of the program you would be a flight instructor and that will open up even more doors. I really hate to see people be narrow minded about the idea of an aviation degree. If it is what you love then go for it. You could have a business major and get laidoff and not be able to find a job. It happens to alot of people.

I think that it is a good choice of major if you want to fly but whether you agree or disagree let me know what you think.
 
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth I

Wed May 10, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 29):
The point is that that degree is worthless outside the industry.

OK, I guess we'll disagree on that one!

IMO no 3-4 year degree is worthless in any industry.

I agree. Most employees in the workforce are not working in the field that they got a degree in. Employers want to see and 4 year degree but many jobs don't require a degree in the field.

Having a four-year degree shows that you can work hard, get the job done, manage your schedule, etc (the list goes on and on). A college degree also guarantees an employer that a job applicant has certain basic qualifications such as being able to do research, write papers/reports, etc.

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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 5:08 am

All I know is that my B.S.ABA from Embry-Riddle helped me get my job. My boss said that when he reviewed the many resumes for the job, mine stood specifically because of my ERAU schooling. He knew that I had a passion for the industry and would not tire of it or leave easily. I was not "just trying to get any job" but truly involved myself in this industry early on. Employers like to feel that a person will stick with them and a degree in the job field certainly helps in that. Your work experience is the biggest piece they look at, followed by networking (who you know/who is recommending you), followed by education.

The key thing is that a degree works best in the field and just becomes "a degree" when out of that field. It doesn't necessarily help (and certainly not against someone with an "in field" degree) but it does not hurt.

I also have a friend of mine who is a pilot and went to school with me and he is the most professional pilot I know. He studies what he does, what he flies, and works to constantly improve. Now of course I am biased and it is more likely that is just who he is, but would he have gone through schooling if he didn't have that passion?

A degree (in aviation or otherwise) is a simple, clear indication of who you are and what you like.

Tug
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Mikkel777 (Reply 13):
I'd stay far away from ERAU. It is by far the most overrated university institution I've ever come across. I've seen so many stupid things done by students and instructors there, it actually made me worried.

I have to agree. The last time I was flying around PRC their calls to Tower were lacking that polished touch of old.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 33):
All I know is that my B.S.ABA from Embry-Riddle helped me get my job. My boss said that when he reviewed the many resumes for the job, mine stood specifically because of my ERAU schooling. He knew that I had a passion for the industry and would not tire of it or leave easily. I was not "just trying to get any job" but truly involved myself in this industry early on. Employers like to feel that a person will stick with them and a degree in the job field certainly helps in that. Your work experience is the biggest piece they look at, followed by networking (who you know/who is recommending you), followed by education.

The key thing is that a degree works best in the field and just becomes "a degree" when out of that field. It doesn't necessarily help (and certainly not against someone with an "in field" degree) but it does not hurt.

I also have a friend of mine who is a pilot and went to school with me and he is the most professional pilot I know. He studies what he does, what he flies, and works to constantly improve. Now of course I am biased and it is more likely that is just who he is, but would he have gone through schooling if he didn't have that passion?

A degree (in aviation or otherwise) is a simple, clear indication of who you are and what you like.

Well said!  thumbsup 

BWOOD,

If there is a particular airline you would really like to work for, or you want to be guaranteed a face-to-face interview with an airline, commuter or major, do an Internship. This, along with a 4 year degree, puts you light years ahead of the competition.

MW
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
Hmmm..I don't see Peachtree accounting in my list of the core business subjects??

Its not a course. Peachtree is just some simple accounting software that most people can do without an accounting degree, but what I am saying is you wont be using that application with an Airline or Aviation company. you will need to use a big software system and fully know Sarbanes-Oxley compliance as well.
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 35):
Its not a course. Peachtree is just some simple accounting software that most people can do without an accounting degree, but what I am saying is you wont be using that application with an Airline or Aviation company. you will need to use a big software system and fully know Sarbanes-Oxley compliance as well.

Yes, I am aware of Peachtree. I was saying, with some sarcasm, that I didn't see it in a list that included such subjects as Business Information Systems, Corporate Finance, or Management of Production and Operations. It was implied that these topics were little than Peachtree accounting.

BTW, you don't, and shouldn't need a degree to use any accounting software, be it Quickbooks, Peachtree, Oracle, or SAP. Sure, an understanding of accounting will help, but that's usually covered in most degrees.


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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 34):
Well said! thumbsup

Thank you~
I have a definite passion for my education/school/field and this thread definitely hit on that. I too had wondered in the past about just how smart my degree choice was. When asked about it I would say "it's basically a business degree with an aviation angle" (and don't even bother to try and describe what Embry-Riddle is to a non-aviation person). It was my current job that brought home just how important my choice was.

Tug
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
I'd also challenge those that say it doesn't make a difference in the aviation world. When times are tough, and/if you are a borderline candidate up against another guy - you bet many companies will look at your aviation degree. Maybe not the airlines, but since I hire people myself, I can tell you it does matter. If 2 guys are similar in resumes, and one has an aviation degree ...who am I gonna hire?

Pilots are largely hired on experience, not on what degree they have. If you have two qualified applicants sitting in front of you, both with similar hours of flying time and experience, then the smart thing would be to hire the one who doesn't have the aviation degree.

Why? Because the one who doesn't have the aviation degree has shown that he or she is more rounded, and he or she is more versatile in his or her knowlege. If said person also has similar hours logged in flying time, then he or she has proven that they are hard working. It's much more difficult to log hours when going for a degree outside of the aviation community, and those of us who are able to log a substansial amount will have more or a leg up in and interview than those that are expected to have a substantial amount.

I would think it's much more impressive to state "I have an MBA and 1000 logged flight hours" than to say "I have a Bachelors of Science in Aeronautics and 1200 flight hours."

Just my opinion.  Smile
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 37):
I have a definite passion for my education/school/field and this thread definitely hit on that. I too had wondered in the past about just how smart my degree choice was. When asked about it I would say "it's basically a business degree with an aviation angle" (and don't even bother to try and describe what Embry-Riddle is to a non-aviation person). It was my current job that brought home just how important my choice was.

I am actually majoring in the same thing @ ERAU right now. I was already offered jobs with Bombardier and Gulfstream aerospace when they heard I go to ERAU and know English, French and Polish fluently. It does help.
 
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 37):
Thank you~
I have a definite passion for my education/school/field and this thread definitely hit on that. I too had wondered in the past about just how smart my degree choice was. When asked about it I would say "it's basically a business degree with an aviation angle" (and don't even bother to try and describe what Embry-Riddle is to a non-aviation person). It was my current job that brought home just how important my choice was.

Tug

Just remember "1 in 5." That's the ratio of us (Riddle pilots) flying for airlines.
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 8:53 am

On the other hand you have to deal with especially the Dumb Human Resources Rep who you must go through before even getting a direct interview with the actual manager who recognizes aviation and everything you know.

I had a great dialogue going via email with a Manager in the Auditing department for an airline and had an interview scheduled for me. I was flown out to find out that he was not in the office and instead they put a general Human Resource Rep in front of me who had no idea about the dialogue and
follow ups. and I did not get the job and the manager apologized that he could not be there that day.

Many Airlines are hiring general Human Resources people to screen out even the Management candidates and some are very clueless and ignorant. I had an interview once for a Manager at Airtran, and the Human Resource rep made me do a phone interview, and it was very embarrassing asking me exactly what I did currently and what my last job was and what my education was and everything. She did not even have my resume at the interview??? How did I apply in the first place? I emailed my resume to the recruiter, but this person on the phone had no information about me at all and kept trying to ask if I had any supervisor experience. She even had to ask for my full name. I told them I was a supervisor, and it was not getting through her. so I never got a 2nd call.
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 38):
If you have two qualified applicants sitting in front of you, both with similar hours of flying time and experience, then the smart thing would be to hire the one who doesn't have the aviation degree.

Actually in a talk with AS Chief Pilot Paul Major, he said a 4 year degree is a must. AS will NOT hire a person lacking a 4 year degree regardless of training. I would imagine this would become the standard, at least at the majors.
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 38):
Pilots are largely hired on experience, not on what degree they have. If you have two qualified applicants sitting in front of you, both with similar hours of flying time and experience, then the smart thing would be to hire the one who doesn't have the aviation degree.

I was commenting on the aviation industry in general, not just pilots ... I agree it's a little different.

But, since I do work in the aviation industry, and I am involved in the hiring process...I'll tell you that the smart thing to do, all other things equal (unlikely though), is to hire the guy who has shown an interest in aviation, has a lot of aviation knowledge, and is obviously keen to learn the subject. I'm not sure why I'd do anything but that!


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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 30):
In reality, it's the 'business degrees' that are worth less (but not worthless). More than enough 'business' is taught in the more specialized degrees, and they are taken by people who are actually interested in the subject and become educated in a specific skill....that's what's needed in the US workforce, not 10 million people that know a little about nothing.

During the post 9/11 times, many pilots off our seniority list that had solid degrees went on to post graduate studies in business, law, and medicine with the most popular being dentistry school. Those with bachelor's business degrees were able to find work at something other than hourly wages, but the aviation degree people were literally delivering pizzas and working at home depot.

Quoting Bwood (Reply 31):
An aviation degree is just as worthless outside of aviation as a communications degree is worhtless outside of a radio or news station. Just as much as a biology degree is worhtless outside of research and people/animal care. Just as much as a zoology degree is worthless outside of a major zoo. Just as much as a computer science degree is worthless out computers.

I note your age group and will respectfully tell you that I've been on both sides of the hiring desk at several points in my life. I've been in this industry since '91, and your observations are incorrect in this case. As an example, refer to the military pilot recruiting programs. They are competitive, and the "light" degrees always merit less than more academically rigorous ones, and this is true in any civil sector, too. Why? People that can think technically take less time, and therefore less dollars, to train. I have know several people with chemistry degrees that work for heavy construction firms in technical capacities, and 2 that work for GE and 1 for Honeywell. I know of no one in a salaried job with an aviation degree outside of aviation or being self employed.
 
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 44):
I've been in this industry since '91, and your observations are incorrect in this case

I've been in the industry a little longer (yes, since leaving college), and from my experience it's fact ...not incorrect. It might be different from your experiences, but I'm talking about what's happening where I work, and previous other aviation related jobs, so please don't tell me I'm wrong.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 44):
Why? People that can think technically take less time, and therefore less dollars, to train. I have know several people with chemistry degrees that work for heavy construction firms in technical capacities, and 2 that work for GE and 1 for Honeywell.

Yes, I don't disagree. I would also say that an Aviation Science degree, or Aeronautical degree is a technical degree of sorts (maybe not as 'pure' as chemistry), but very different from the 'business' degrees mentioned in other posts as being valuable. I dare say those chemistry degrees were more relevant than MBA's for those positions.

All you're saying is that certain types of degrees suit certain jobs. I totally agree, but that's very different from saying an aviation degree is 'worthless'.

Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 44):
I know of no one in a salaried job with an aviation degree outside of aviation or being self employed.

Neither do I, but your logic is flawed if you think it's because the degree is worthless. Either you don't know many people with aviation degrees (I know of none outside of my aviation life) or they're all in aviation jobs....which is presumably what they wanted. Edited to add: Just remembered somebody that has an aviation degree and is an IT consultant billing $150/hr in his pocket.

Having a chemistry degree and working in a totally unrelated job is a waste of education IMO. It was either the wrong choice of degree, or the wrong choice of work.


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-05-10 03:13:30]
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 10:11 am

GI- Don't know here how many are prior service but in the next few years even the Navy is requiring at least an associates degree to be advanced to E-7. A first time requirement for enlisted. Know matter how one looks at it having a degree of some sorts, aviation or non-aviation, is very important in the eyes of many, military or private sector.
 
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 11:37 am

EssentialPowr I am amazed that you think an av science degree is so worthless. When I said that if an av science degree is as worhtless outside of aviation as a comm degree outside of radio or TV I was quoting your idea. If an av science degree is worthless outside of its field then other specialized degrees must be as well. I am just generalizing what you said about the av degree cause if an intense program like that is worthless outside of its field then other specialized degrees must be the same as well.


I also find it really hard to believe that laid off pilots who had generalized college degrees went back to school and graduate school. I don't believe that for one minute. With how much grad school costs and all the time it takes I cannot believe that someone with no income and just a savings and 401K would invest their time and money in that. You said med, law and dentistry schools? So laid off pilots went and took the MCAT, LCAT, and DCAT and went to full time school for four to five more years? I don't believe that one bit. If that is the case then they should of done that from the start.

Db373 I cannot believe you would betray a pilot like that and hire someone with the same flight credentials but chose the person without the av degree. Thats just poor HR work and hiring techniques. That would be like saying I am going to hire a teacher to teach math who has a physics degree instead of the other applicant who has a math degree. Then if someone asked why you did that you say "oh, well I thought that since the physics teacher showed an interest in something else than their degree and they can do the math so I guess they are the better choice."


That is what is wrong with businesses today. People try to be different and think outside the box when they really are thinking totally wrong. Then I guess your surgen could be replaced by a really curious dermatologist? Or maybe your lawyer could be an english teacher who has read alot of law books. Maybe your pharmicist could be someone who studied it while going to school full time to be a philosopher? That is just bad business and a terrible idea. Wouldn't you rather have someone who focused all of their attention to one subject. Plus way to turn your back on the pilots who actually spent the time and effort to study aviation for four or more years. There is nothing wrong with hiring people who have a degree outside of aviation and have the flight time but the person with the degree is the better choice.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 45):
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 44):
I've been in this industry since '91, and your observations are incorrect in this case

Bond007, that comment was directed at Bwood, 2nd paragraph of reply 44 that starts "I note your age group..."

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 45):
All you're saying is that certain types of degrees suit certain jobs. I totally agree, but that's very different from saying an aviation degree is 'worthless'.

. No, that's not what I'm saying, thank you. I can't tell you how many times someone w/ a BS in Aviation Science from Aviation U starts knocking their ring on the table in a discussion about an airspeed/alt plot for example, and then I always ask, "What's a Reynold's number?" to a blank look. Or when someone explains Bernoulli lift, and these same people seem to think that 2 molecules at the front of a wing have to somehow become rejoined at the trailing edge...which is aerodynamics for 3rd graders. Bachelor of Science? Those people got ripped off...

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 45):
Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 44):
I know of no one in a salaried job with an aviation degree outside of aviation or being self employed.

Neither do I, but your logic is flawed if you think it's because the degree is worthless

Should I repeat this? I know plenty, 3 of which were delivering pizzas after 9/11. Having a harder degree is not a waste of education. As an engineer, I'm qualified to do about any job b/c I can learn it. Time value of money? ROI? Give me the book. Organic chemistry? Oil reservior engineer? I have harped for years about this on these forums...As we said in engineering school, "those that can, engineer, and those that can't...go to the business school."

Finally, let me state that the US doesn't graduate near enough technical people any more...the stats and discussions on this are widely prevalent in AW&ST, for ex...an the fact that so many worthless BS degrees are being granted to dumb down the system and make sure any one can get a 4 yr degree is a large part of the problem. A lot of aviation degrees are part of that problem, b/c getting credit to fly is a joke, imo, but like most things, that tends to solve itself in the real world.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Flight Degress From Colleges. Are They Worth It?

Wed May 10, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting BWOOD (Reply 47):
also find it really hard to believe that laid off pilots who had generalized college degrees went back to school and graduate school. I don't believe that for one minute. With how much grad school costs and all the time it takes I cannot believe that someone with no income and just a savings and 401K would invest their time and money in that. You said med, law and dentistry schools? So laid off pilots went and took the MCAT, LCAT, and DCAT and went to full time school for four to five more years? I don't believe that one bit. If that is the case then they should of done that from the start.

Choose not to believe me...that is certainly your right. I type my thoughts purely as an exercise for myself; if I wanted credibility on this forum I might consider posting my resume like so many have...several of these people that went post grad left the airline industry altogether (obviously); so in addition to not believing me you are essentially saying its not possible b/c they would have done that from the start? So you know it all? Have you even put $$ in a 401k yet?

You do what works for you. If you don't want opinions, please,please dont ask for them...but past that, don't dare call me a liar to answers for your questions, b/c I couldn't care less whether you believe me or not.

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